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"Forgive and forget" is not what I advocate. I have no issue with bearing the past in mind either. I warn against rhetoric that pitches nations against each other, and for that it is completely irrelevant that the Greeks did not start the nationalist blabber. Which European narrative do you want to connect to?
by Katrin on Mon Feb 23rd, 2015 at 09:34:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think the European narrative is actually over in Greece. They are back to what Papandreou used to say, "We are a Balkan nation." And that explicitly meant outside Europe.
by Upstate NY on Mon Feb 23rd, 2015 at 09:41:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think there wouldn't have been a wide positive reaction to staying in the Euro if the sentiment you see would be a majority one.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Mon Feb 23rd, 2015 at 11:11:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Even during the midst of the negotiations, I was reading a big turnabout on the euro.

Geithner's comments about the intention to punish Greece all along has now become common  wisdom in Greece.

Paul mason spoke to the moderates in Syriza over the weekend who said that they were dead wrong about the possibility of keeping Greece in the euro.

I think Varoufakis is likely to the very fringe of his party in terms of his sense that Greece needs to stay in the euro, and if you read Varoufakis's writing on currency conversion for other countries (i.e. Scotland or Argentina) then you know he actually has a withering view of Europe.

I am entirely convinced that the body politic in Greece (outside To Potami, the tatters of Pasok, and ND) is now ready for exiting the euro. And I think the people are there too.

by Upstate NY on Mon Feb 23rd, 2015 at 11:26:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
None of which addresses the positive public reaction.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Mon Feb 23rd, 2015 at 11:29:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
any move out of the euro requires a lot of finessing of public opinions.

It was very important for Syriza to be seen as absolutely against Grexit.

The idea has to be established in the public minds that, when it happens, the govt did everything it could do. The general sense that I got from Greek voters (who formerly supported ND or PASOK or were now in To Potami's camp) was that they believed Varoufakis and Tsipras wanted out of the euro.

These sensibilities have to be managed. They don't change instantly.

Not to mention the fact that Greeks for the first time saw their politicians as fighting for them, which actually does address the gov'ts popularity.

by Upstate NY on Mon Feb 23rd, 2015 at 11:50:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
By the way, here is an article in the AFP (LA Times) that shows Greek public opinion over the weekend:

http://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la-fg-greece-bailout-20150223-story.html

Nevertheless, Tsipras' popularity continues to soar, according to recent polls.

Weekend polls found that more than 80% of respondents said they were supportive of the negotiating stance, while 86% said they felt his leadership had inspired a new sense of national pride.

A separate poll found that Tsipras' popularity rating had risen by 42 percentage points in a month, reaching 87%, the highest of any Greek politician since the restoration of democracy in 1974.

by Upstate NY on Mon Feb 23rd, 2015 at 12:47:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Funny I have read a lot of press reporst how he is in hot water with Syriza (and Anel).

Seems to be a tad superficial, the damage.

by IM on Mon Feb 23rd, 2015 at 12:50:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In other words, Tsipras won over the overwhelming majority of public opinion by making them feel that he is with them in wanting Greece as part of Europe, the EU and the Euro; at the expense of distress among the party faithful, some of whom may feel that the European narrative is over and "We are a Balkan nation" applies again.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Mon Feb 23rd, 2015 at 02:53:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Greeks are changing their view.
by Upstate NY on Mon Feb 23rd, 2015 at 07:14:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I had no problem understanding your perspective, though I disagree only to the extent that I find it intolerable that German conservatives, especially those from the south, still complain about references to what those they strongly supported in the '30s did and that it left such a mark on German history. I do this because my real concern is that I see the social and psychological attitudes and political beliefs involved then still acting today in analogous ways. I have the same concern for all of the US conservatives who supported Hitler, to the extent of cooperating with him in the rearming of Germany right up until their holdings were (temporarily) confiscated during WW II, after they had transferred vital technologies to Germany - Standard Oil, DuPont, Firestone, Ford, IBM, etc., not to mention Harriman-Brown law firm It is a serious concern that they were and are not now held accountable. Individuals involved included Pierre DuPont, Henry Ford (Iron Cross by Hitler), Prescott Bush, both Dulles brothers, Joe Kennedy, etc. And these same people are now supporting the current, post modern imperial security state in the USA.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Mon Feb 23rd, 2015 at 09:58:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes. I can only remind you that I am not particularly conservative, but that I too flap my ears at all demands to hold me responsible for what my grandparents did, or anything resembling such demands. People who want to reach the German public, or at least who don't want to alienate it, should avoid this minefield. You can either have a narrative that pitches nations against each other or a narrative that holds conservatives responsible, but not both.
by Katrin on Mon Feb 23rd, 2015 at 10:25:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's a fair point, in the same sense and to the same extent that it is a fair point that you will not change Israeli public opinion by bringing up the 1948 ethnic cleansing.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Feb 23rd, 2015 at 02:13:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think that is a fair point, and as long as Greece remains in the eurozone winning the German public for the spirit of '53 should be the goal.

However, if Greece is kicked out of the eurozone and Germany insist on being repaid and uses the legal structure of the EU to try to collect, then I think bringing up legal claims against Germany might be necessary in order to remain in the EU.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Tue Feb 24th, 2015 at 05:09:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Agreed. In that case the political climate would be poisoned anyway.
by Katrin on Tue Feb 24th, 2015 at 06:52:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I read it in the same way.

It is a point being made to show that a Greek exit from the eurozone really does mean unrecoverable  debts for the rest of Europe.

Beyond that, Citigroup has argued that the removal of ELA automatically creates a legal liability for Europe that absolves Greece of any debt.

I would also point out that the debt conversion in 2012 changed Greek debt from being Athens based, without any collective action clauses, to London debt that required a % of creditor agreement in the changing of any terms.

by Upstate NY on Tue Feb 24th, 2015 at 08:55:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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