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https://www.youtube.com/embed/GNPCqqpHQ9k?start=116

People like Lorcan Roche Kelly at Bloomberg are railing on Varoufakis for lying when he said the video is doctored.

Varoufakis is absolutely right that it is doctored.

Any time I hear voiceovers midsentence, my ears prick up.

The video makes it sound as though Varoufakis was counseling Greece.

But what preceded the sentence was the hypothetical about the potential collapse of the eurozone circa 2010 and Greece's response to its out of control budget in the same year. He was speaking retrospectively. Not counseling what is to be done now, especially not now as Greece's Athens-law based private debt (owned by private banks) has been converted to sovereign EU debt.

There are so many on Twitter calling Varoufakis a liar over this when it is clear to me he is right about the video.

by Upstate NY on Sun Mar 15th, 2015 at 08:20:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

((*youtube GNPCqqpHQ9k))

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Mar 15th, 2015 at 08:51:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Everyone is excited about that finger instead of politics. So: the "finger-video" was quoted in an ARD-video (made by Jauch's team) on Varoufakis. This video gave the impression as if V. wanted to give Germany the finger and default in the case he became a member of a new government. In reality he was talking in 2013 about the past, 2010, and said Greece should have defaulted then. It is unclear which video of the two he means, and it is unclear what exactly he means by "doctored".

Here are two good blog posts on the finger affair: http://www.stefan-niggemeier.de/blog/20713/wie-guenther-jauch-die-aussagen-von-varoufakis-verfaelsch te/
http://pantelouris.de/2015/03/15/die-sache-mit-dem-finger-varoufakis-bei-jauch/

I liked Ulrike Herrmann's suggestion of resolving the forced loan affair: pay the money, but not to the Greek government, but to a foundation for German-Greek youth programmes. Very much needed after the Euro-crisis and accompanying nationalistic noise. At first I thought she is serving the anti-Greek sentiment: the Greeks can't be trusted with so much money and so.

Think it out. It would need a German-Greek treaty. Germany promises to provide the funds, aware of the responsibility for history and so on. Greece in exchange promises to treat the forced loan as re-paid. Both parties agree that focusing on debt and insisting on repayment is un-European and is destroying the very foundations of cooperation and understanding. This is the discussion we need.

by Katrin on Mon Mar 16th, 2015 at 04:43:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The finger comes from

Starting at 1'46". The finger comes at 1'59".

My proposal was that Greece should simply announce that it is defaulting, just like Argentina did, within the Euro in January 2010 and stick the finger to Germany and say "well, you can now solve this problem by yourself", right?.
That's a reply to a question from the audience, starting about 38'40" in this video:



A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 16th, 2015 at 05:49:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Right, and the video is freely available, which makes Kelly's tweet a bit uninspired and lazy.

The question prompted V. to talk of a potential euro collapse in 2010.

by Upstate NY on Mon Mar 16th, 2015 at 08:20:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This is a good reciprocal proposal. All the Greek debt repayments as well should not go to the banks. They should go directly to the taxpayers of Europe.
by Upstate NY on Mon Mar 16th, 2015 at 08:21:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
After 5 years of undercover bank bailout, Greece is only indebted to the taxpayers any more, not to the banks.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 16th, 2015 at 08:36:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, I know, but I am like Varoufakis today, only commenting in retrospect, which also therefore kills Katrin's excellent proposal.
by Upstate NY on Mon Mar 16th, 2015 at 09:37:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Why? My (rather, Ulrike Herrmann's) proposal does not say that Greece will pay back debt to anyone. It won't.
by Katrin on Mon Mar 16th, 2015 at 12:01:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Greece is going to pay back a huge portion of that debt in any case.
by Upstate NY on Mon Mar 16th, 2015 at 12:56:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It always has, in every default.
by Upstate NY on Mon Mar 16th, 2015 at 12:57:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It is quite possible that your tea leaves are better than my crystal ball, but how do you think they will do that? 320 billion Euros. How much is a "huge portion of that" and where will they take that money from? Or will they offer finance minister's fingers as payment? I have a hunch that debt that can't be paid won't be paid and that's that.
by Katrin on Mon Mar 16th, 2015 at 04:40:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
All of them know pretty much they have to repay what they can. They will repay 100% debt to GDP on extended maturities that will make it look like they have paid it all.
by Upstate NY on Mon Mar 16th, 2015 at 05:28:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
My eyesight is no longer what it used to be, but it isn't that bad. I doubt very much that the Greeks can beautify their inability to re-pay their debt so much that it will look like you would like it to. And that is one reason more to stop this aggressive tone and claims of superior morality. We need a different narrative, a narrative of cooperation.
by Katrin on Mon Mar 16th, 2015 at 05:40:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In order for a country to pay 180% debt to GDP, many years of very high surpluses are required.

When your debt load is more manageable, you're not required to extract as much from the economy.

Greece has been paying a large debt load for many years prior to entering the eurozone, so there's no reason to think it can't do so again.

While Greece's per capita income skyrocketed in the eurozone, it is now down to simply 1k more a year than it was prior to entering. In other words, Greece lost 2 decades. Is there a reason to believe it can't get back to where it was prior to joining the euro?

by Upstate NY on Mon Mar 16th, 2015 at 07:28:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Germany's debt is about 80% GDP.

And here is how it looks in absolute euros.

What will be the financial picture in 10 years?

by das monde on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 01:26:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Better. Te 80% stillinclude two bad banks and thaht will be gone in ten years time.
by IM on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 05:17:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Debt may never be repaid but the ratio will be reduced if nominal GDP growth is higher than the interest rate.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 05:22:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The question is if Greece can bring that about, and how quickly, and if a policy of confrontation helps. Varoufakis made a good impression in that TV show exactly because he did not play that game. Actually he made only one mistake during the show.
by Katrin on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 09:39:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
 
he made only one mistake during the show.

Which was? (The sound isn't working on my computer and I haven't felt like/had the time to fix it.)

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 10:16:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Denying the video.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 10:46:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
He called the video doctored which is the perfect excuse for self described "journalists" to not engage with anything he said.
I mean he is right of course in the sense that he did not give the finger to anyone and the video as presented was a straight up lie.
Nonetheless the court press will go full attack mode, with Jauch starting immediately with "well if you believe that there are dark forces out there, fabricating videos we will of course check."
At least the Austrian state broadcaster mentioned that in the video he was talking about 2010 while it was presented as dealing with the situation now. Maybe the marching orders changed? One can hope.
by generic on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 10:48:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
While he should have said his quote was "out of context," the video was actually doctored.
by Upstate NY on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 11:09:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You mean the youtube or the video that Jauch put up?

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 11:11:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The Jauch video spliced Varoufakis's words with a voiceover to make it seem as though he was giving the Germans the finger.
by Upstate NY on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 12:20:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
V or a surrogate should have put up a Youtube video showing the original and the doctored version, along with expert analysis.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 10:06:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The ARD has in the meantime admitted that their accompanying text was misleading--which was V's point. But it was easy to "misunderstand" him, and he gave this opportunity to attack him by his unfortunate wording. Schäuble, the guy who forgot a suitcase with DM 100,000, calls Varoufakis a liar. Everything else V. said was good, easy to understand and had the right tone. Varoufakis and Herrmann made the others look like the inimical nitwits they are.
by Katrin on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 11:13:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Right... (via)

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 11:25:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What Greece has to do is figure out how to take the money its own oligarchs are extracting for themselves from the country and use a good part of it to pay down the debt. Of course that is not how 'reform' is supposed to work! And it is called 'socialism'.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 07:09:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
When people speak of Greek oligarchs, we are talking about a conflation of issues.

  1. The political elite thought they had carte blanche to take bribes from oligarchs and international finance because of the law forbidding arrest for ministers and deputies (a law in place to correct the junta's habit of imprisoning political opponents).

  2. The shipping sector which cannot be taxed and will never be taxed beyond the ship tonnage it already pays.

  3. The banking sector which is largely an offshoot of shipping (i.e. shippers started the banks).

  4. Greece's distribution system for goods, which is organized vertically across sectors, by the same cabal. This needs to be broken up so that distributors from outside Greece can service retailers.

  5. The black market: cigarettes and fuel.

#1 is paramount and the one most easily addressed.
#3 controls #4 because you can't compete with the current distribution system unless you, ONE, reform regulations that prevent a challenge to the system, and TWO, fund that challenge through private banks.
#5 is just going to war with racketeers, which presents its own set of problems at the level of police and national security.
by Upstate NY on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 11:08:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Could end up like Mexico or Colombia...

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 11:13:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Or perhaps Italy, in which the likeliest version is a few show arrests, and beyond that, if anyone truly threatens, a prosecutor or judge fear for their lives.
by Upstate NY on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 12:18:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Perhaps Syriza's least bad option is to take a page from their opponents play book and hire their own private security forces to 'protect' their ministers. This would not create a new police force that could be subverted by the next conservative government. It could obviously lead to civil war, but that might be the only way any fundamental change will occur.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 12:46:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I can't believe the discussion is veering in this direction, to be honest.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 12:49:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You know since you have this leg injury your commentary has gotten downright apocalyptic. We're still quite a way from civil war.
by generic on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 02:51:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Six weeks on 60mg of prednisone and chronic sleep deprivation hasn't helped my mood, I agree. And I certainly would not advocate civil war for anyone. But effective preparations might be the best preventive. If Syriza does not push some initiatives to collect taxes and prosecute criminality out of fear of the assassination of the prosecutors, judges or even cabinet ministers that becomes a serious problem for the survival of the state. If this government is brought down by violence or the threat of violence from the right that would already be a de facto civil war that the government lost. The existing police and security apparatus seems highly problematic in their effectiveness and reliability in both protecting the new government and ensuring that its laws and actions are enforce as it is. Yet time is of the essence.

My preference has always been to try to think things through to their conclusions, however ugly that might get. Then, worse come to worst, you at least have considered, and perhaps made some preparation for such an eventuality. A small but highly capable group of security personnel whose loyalty, as a group, is highly likely could do a lot to prevent worse coming to worst. I have to wonder what Lloyds or other reinsurance companies would charge per million of coverage of top officials of the Syriza government against loss due to assassination or unexpalined disappearance over the next two years. I have never had much patience with the "I'd hate to think XXXXX" approach and my observation has too often been that that is exactly what should have been thought about. To wit, in the USA, JFK, RFK, MLK, and Malcom X, for starters.    

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 10:00:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And I share Migeru's concern that Greece could end up like Columbia. I would hate to see that. It would be a victory for fascism.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 10:09:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Even if Syrizia would win a civil war, talking about  a victory would be misplaced. So they put their right wing allies in charge of the military and the man in charge of reforming the police thought most of their leadership. If they instead tried to bypass the police with their own security force they'd instead fan  the flames. Saying that I'm not worried would be a lie, but in a lot of situations preparing for a war makes it more likely.
by generic on Wed Mar 18th, 2015 at 04:01:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
taught most of their leadership. I think I'll just give up on typing.
by generic on Wed Mar 18th, 2015 at 05:36:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Then they should task him with addressing the problem effectively. In for a penny...

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed Mar 18th, 2015 at 05:55:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, there is one more group, and a critical one: The construction, IT, and media (this is pertinent: these folks own all of the major private media in the country between them) moguls that oligopolize Greek state procurements and are involved in various privatizations. This includes but is not limited to, people from categories 2, 3 and 5. These are people like:
  • G.Bobolas, and his various construction and engineering companies, involved in almost every major public infrastructure (from highways to gold mining to garbage disposal),
  • S.Kokkalis (ditto for the telecom, informatics and network projects),
  • Kopelouzos and Mytilinaios in Energy and mining etc,
  • Melissanidis (a gangster and former petrol smuggler now shipping magnate, who bought the State Lottery and football pool company after it was privatized at the dictate of the troika)
these people and a few scores like them are powerful but controllable and vulnerable.
Then there are the Latsis and Vardinogiannis families (pretty much involved in everything) - who are almost like a shadow government in terms of real power

Hit these people (or most of these people) with fines and (where possible) criminal charges, along with categories 1,3, 4 and 5 and SYRIZA will be winning every election from now til 2020 with huge majorities

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake

by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Fri Mar 20th, 2015 at 02:29:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This is a first step in that direction:

Businesses will have to pay a 26 pct tax on expenses made for supplies bought from countries with preferential tax regimes which will be returned within 12 months, after it is proved the transaction was real, according to a new provision which will be included in the draft bill on settling overdue debts towards the state.

The provision concerns article 21 of the finance ministry's bill which aims at blocking tax evasion through triangular transactions through tax havens and countries which impose very low taxes on business profits.

The ministry's 2014 list with countries that have preferential tax regimes or low taxes on business profits include, among others, Cyprus, Albania, Andorra, Bulgaria, Gibraltar, Ireland, FYROM, Qatar and the United Arab Emirates.

They're watering it down a bit, since it could kill legitimate business especuially with neighbouring countries, and the "business community" is furious, but it will be implemented.

Note that between the Latsis and Vardinogiannis oil companies the fines that were dismissed buy the previous administration [link in Greek] (going back a decade) were of the order of 1.2 billion Euros and had to do exactly with this "triangular" tax-avoidance schemes

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake

by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Fri Mar 20th, 2015 at 02:41:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
How will this impact Hellenic Bottling? They moved HQ but kept production in Greece. I wonder if they will think about moving production out of Greece now.
by Upstate NY on Sat Mar 21st, 2015 at 11:14:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I liked Ulrike Herrmann's suggestion of resolving the forced loan affair: pay the money, but not to the Greek government, but to a foundation for German-Greek youth programmes.

Is there anything more insulting than that?

by Euroliberal on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 05:32:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
to whom?
by IM on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 06:38:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I assume you want to tell us that you find the suggestion insulting.
by Katrin on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 08:42:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, I do.
by Euroliberal on Wed Mar 18th, 2015 at 09:59:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And your reasons for thinking so are secret, I assume. Ot not? We can't know.
by Katrin on Wed Mar 18th, 2015 at 10:58:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It really is insulting.
by Upstate NY on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 11:10:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You two really should explain why. I have already told you that that was my first thought too, but WHY on second thoughts I changed my mind. Obviously I haven't convinced you two, but you don't even try to give reasons.
by Katrin on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 11:20:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Because it is the gov'ts money, elected by the people of Greece, to decide what to do with it, in the same way that Greece does not dictate what the ECB or EFSM or IMF do with the proceeds of Greece's debt payments.
by Upstate NY on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 12:14:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, it isn't the Greek government's money. It is money they would like to have. Money they say they have a claim to. This claim is disputed, obviously. The dispute will make some experts for international law rich, but I am not sure if the courts we have can resolve it. If the money was so unequivocally Greece's, previous governments would probably pressed the matter too, and the German government would have chosen a different approach.  

So Greece can claim the money, insist it is a debt that must be paid and all that. That's not the kind of debate I want. It would be very damaging for Europe. Even if we say that Germany started it, that kindergarten: who started throwing sand. And don't count on too much understanding in Germany either. I am fairly sympathetic to the Greek claims, but this sort of debate inevitably brings the sort of "arguments" that make me flap my ears. So, if you want something divisive, that alienates the part of the German public that is on Greece's side, go ahead.

Herrmann's suggestion kills this divisive debate of claims and counter-claims. The question isn't if Greece or Germany owns the money, the question suddenly is if we can have a nice educational and cultural foundation that can do a lot of good. We are suddenly talking about spending money.

by Katrin on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 12:54:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This claim is disputed, obviously. [...] If the money was so unequivocally Greece's, previous governments would probably pressed the matter too

Um, have you watched that ARD segment linked by Upstate NY?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 01:32:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It doesn't contradict me. Previous governments did not overly press the matter. Why not? If the claim was perfectly clear, AND there was a clear method of making Germany pay, surely previous governments would have pressed the claim. That would have been more than an occasional diplomatic letter. Personally I find the Greek claim convincing. I don't think it has a high chance of success though. So: it is not the Greek Government's money. It is not even likely that it will become the Greek government's money.
by Katrin on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 02:03:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
By adding "overly", you changed your previous claim, which is contradicted by the fact that previous governments kept bringing up the matter, only to be told that it's too soon to bring this up before Reunification and that it's too late after Reunification.

After adding "overly", perhaps you should consider the aspirations of Greek governments over the past few decades to join the EU and then the Euro rather than any legal ambiguity those governments might have recognised.

The lack of a clear method of making Germany pay (with no international court willing to take up the matter so far) is indeed a significant, though separate, issue. And if that remains the sole reason to term the money not Greece's, that sounds like blackmail, which would indeed be insulting.

However, I should have pointed out that I actually agree on the wisdom of Herrmann's suggestion: it would just be the kind of policy Varoufakis advocates, a growth-supporting measure that allows some face-saving on the creditor side. However, I don't see it coming any time soon.

The Jauch incident showed that any attempt to get through to the German public opinion was doomed from the start: in the current poisoned German MSM landscape (even with critical reports like the above discussed one on ARD), even if you win the debate on substance against the right-wingers and a supposedly impartial moderator acting as attack dog (and the model Bildungsbürger at that!), they will completely overshadow that with a superficial non-issue like Fingergate. And, alarmingly, with success, as shown by the latest polls on Greece. And I don't see Schäuble weakened at all. No one in the MSM or mainstream politics is confronting Schäuble's incendiary provocations, quite the contrary: for example, when Kammenos protested those in Bild, Martin Schmidt of the EP had no better idea than to cal on Tsipras to end his coalition with Kammenos who "insulted" Schäuble.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 03:01:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And if that remains the sole reason to term the money not Greece's, that sounds like blackmail, which would indeed be insulting.

Who is blackmailing whom? The whole incident is basically an inept case of Greece trying to blackmail Germany with the german past. Won't work, as I pointed out.

"However, I should have pointed out that I actually agree on the wisdom of Herrmann's suggestion:"

I thought it ids too insulting?

by IM on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 03:12:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It isn't blackmail at all.

That's an insult, actually.

And secondly, it shows that only some loans and some debt are valid for you, but not others.

Given Germany's history with debt, this is absolutely astonishing.

by Upstate NY on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 03:25:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"That's an insult, actually."

If only. Or the wouldn't bring it up in this context.

"And secondly, it shows that only some loans and some debt are valid for you, but not others."

You don't say. History is littered with unpaid debt.

"Given Germany's history with debt, this is absolutely astonishing."

I am not "Germany", you know. And if you think only Germany defaulted during the Great Recession I can point you to the direction of France and the UK.

by IM on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 03:33:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

 The Jauch incident showed that any attempt to get through to the German public opinion was doomed from the start:

Nonsense. Varoufakis had a very good hour.

for example, when Kammenos protested those in Bild, Martin Schmidt of the EP had no better idea than to cal on Tsipras to end his coalition with Kammenos who "insulted" Schäuble.

Kammenos, like the rest of Anel, is a nincompop and the earlier Tsipras can get rid of him and fools like the justice minister, the better.

by IM on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 03:17:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You know we might have less exploding threads if you wouldn't call statements you disagree with nonsense. I mean sure everybody who watched the show paid attention and isn't helplessly biased must admit that overall he did very well. But everyone who didn't will only hear about his finger.
by generic on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 03:36:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And while I fully agree that Kammenos, like the rest of Anel, is a nincompop and the earlier Tsipras can get rid of him the better, that still doesn't invalidate Kammenos's criticism of Schäuble and doesn't validate Schnmidt's claim that this criticism is a reason to get rid of Kammenos. Nor does it invalidate my claim that there is no serious criticism of Schäuble in the German MSM and mainstream politics, rather the opposite.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 03:42:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
". Nor does it invalidate my claim that there is no serious criticism of Schäuble in the German MSM and mainstream politics, rather the opposite"

And that is wrong.And compared to Kammenos, even Schäuble is restrained.

by IM on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 03:45:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And that is wrong.

If you would care to substantiate that, that would improve the noise to signal ratio and actually do something against the ill winds blowing in this blog.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 03:54:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No: You made the extraordinary claim: That nobody in Germany opposes Schäuble. So should prove that.

And could you cease these personal attacks?

by IM on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 04:03:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Now you're demanding that DoDo proves a negative.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 05:19:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No I don't . His claim, his proof.
by IM on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 05:21:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You are demanding that DoDo proves that nobody in the German political mainstream opposes Stasi 2.0's Greece policy.

How is that not demanding that DoDo proves a negative?

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 05:33:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Then perhaps he shouldn't make such sweeping claims.

Here one example of critique. mainstream enough?

http://www.zeit.de/wirtschaft/2015-02/wolfgang-schaeuble-eurokrise

by IM on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 05:39:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That is a criticism of Stasi 2.0's style, not of the substance.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 05:43:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
by IM on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 06:15:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, it's nice that SPD guys spoke out against Schäuble's veto a month ago (so did Merkel, in her way), and it is also nice that the Herdentrieb blogger (whom I also quoted earlier) spoke out against the Syriza-are-loons MSM consensus also a month ago (though considering him mainstream just because of the Die Zeit hosting is a bit of a stretch, same for Martin Wolf and Jakob Augstein at Spiegel-Online).

But what I wanted to see was criticism of Schäuble's incendiary provocations, now. Have you ran across ones like those? I didn't. (Well unless taz columnists count as MSM.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 07:29:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You are just moving the goalposts. And if ZEIT is no longer mainstream, then that?  Schieritz is regular journalist there, by the way.

But here we are, Carsten Schneider of all people

- hardly a bolschevik

http://www.all-in.de/nachrichten/deutschland_welt/politik/SPD-Fraktionsvize-Schneider-kritisiert-Sch aeubles-Ton-gegenueber-Athen;art15808,1911970

by IM on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 07:39:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Good, I was hoping for something like this. For the benefit of readers not speaking German:

Rheinische Post: SPD-Fraktionsvize Schneider kritisiert Schäubles Ton gegenüber Griechen | Pressemitteilung Rheinische Post Rheinische Post: SPD parliamentary group deputy leader Schneider criticizes Schäuble's tone towards Greeks | Rheinische Post press release
Düsseldorf (ots) - SPD-Fraktionsvize Carsten Schneider hat den Ton von Finanzminister Wolfgang Schäuble (CDU) gegenüber der griechischen Regierung kritisiert. "Als Finanzminister hat man gegenüber den Finanzmärkten eine ganz besondere Funktion. Es ist immer besser, man sagt wenig oder gar nichts, als weiter zur Eskalation der Lage beizutragen", sagte Schneider der in Düsseldorf erscheinenden "Rheinischen Post" (Samstagausgabe). "Schweigen wäre für Schäuble jetzt besser", mahnte Schneider am Rande eines Besuchs in Athen. Dusseldorf (ots) - Carsten Schneider, deputy leader of the SPD's parliamentary group, criticized the tone of finance minister Wolfgang Schäuble (CDU) towards the Greek government. "As finance minister, one has a special role towards financial markets. It is always better to say little or nothing than to contribute further to the escalation of the situation," Schneider the Dusseldorf-based "Rheinische Post" newspaper (Saturday edition). "It would be better for Schäuble now to stay silent," Schneider warned at the edge of a visit to Athens.

Now let's make some things clear. My concern is not being Right® in a debate on the internet, but with the apparent descent of public debate in Germany to the level of the US one during the Iraq War. I focus on the MSM and mainstream politicians because that's where normal non-political-junkie citizens (like the ones I met last week in Vienna) get their cues from. Mark Schieritz may sway followers of his blog (and he had a more on-topic missive than the one you linked here, also a month ago), but this is not what he gets printed in Die Welt. Martin Wolf may be allowed to ramble on at S.P.O.N., but that has zero effect on the editorial line which rather publishes shit like this narration of Schäuble. Even at taz, which defines itself outside the MSM (though they followed the Greens towards the mainstream), it makes Ulrike Herrmann's regular columns sound a voice in the wilderness when news reporting consists of pieces like the first two paragraphs of this one in which the editorial board allows with the gross bias of apparent wire reports left unchanged.

In fact, while I am happy to be dis-proven about the complete silence of mainstream critical voices and the indication that the SPD is not completely on-board with Schäuble's policy after all, concerns remain. I find that apart from the original source and Left-Party-aligned neues deutschland, only the East Berlin tabloid Berliner Kurier saw it newsworthy to report Carsten's criticism, which contrasts with the across-the-board reporting of Martin Schmidt's defence of Schäuble. Also, in the SPD, it would have been nicer if we heard this not from Carsten but foreign minister Steinmeier, who instead accused the Greek government (rather than his fellow minister) of making the conflict bilateral.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Mar 18th, 2015 at 03:56:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"Now let's make some things clear. My concern is not being Right® in a debate on the internet,"

You could have fooled me.

" but with the apparent descent of public debate in Germany to the level of the US one during the Iraq War."

A strange narrative you build there. And you defend it by including a smaller and smaller part of they german media into your MSM Definition.

"but foreign minister Steinmeier, who instead accused the Greek government (rather than his fellow minister) of making the conflict bilateral."

Rightly. The greek government tries to make the cónflict bilateral and many e. g. on this blog think that is the cleverest strategy since Odysseus.  I am reminded of Pyrrhus.

by IM on Wed Mar 18th, 2015 at 09:35:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, Kammenos isn't currently heading up the legalized murder of around fifty of Stasi 2.0's countrymen per business day. Which is somewhere in the ballpark of what the poverty-related excess mortality from the current sanctions regime comes to.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 03:56:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
 "I mean sure everybody who watched the show paid attention and isn't helplessly biased must admit that overall he did very well."

That is my point

 "But everyone who didn't will only hear about his finger."

Media coverage was more differentiated then that.

by IM on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 03:42:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
e. g. here, where it is quite long explained what Varoufakis actually said, in what context he said it and so on:

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/griechenland-das-sagte-varoufakis-in-der-stinkefinger-rede-a-1 023977.html

by IM on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 05:34:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This is not a bad article, but my point was that, like Spiegel itself prints here, only the sequence with him raising his finger toward Germany stays in memory. And this article is like most others I've seen about what YV did or didn't say or do in 2013.
by generic on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 06:02:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
 "And this article is like most others I've seen about what YV did or didn't say or do in 2013."

Then  don't see your problem. The media reaction seems to be correct.

by IM on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 06:19:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The problem is that he doesn't get his message through. The best outcome he can get is a general realization that ARD treated him unfairly. While what he needs to get through is that he is much too reasonable for the Eurogroup/ECB to provoke a crisis over.
by generic on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 06:45:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The video was doctored as they spliced his sentences together in a voiceover. Even ARD admitted it was doctored.
by Upstate NY on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 08:31:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Now you concede that there are several reasons why previous governments did not pursue the matter with so much zeal. Or overly press it or whatever. Need we go further into semantics? Apparently we are not that far apart: the statement that it was undisputedly Greece's money simply is false.

"However, I should have pointed out that I actually agree on the wisdom of Herrmann's suggestion: it would just be the kind of policy Varoufakis advocates, a growth-supporting measure that allows some face-saving on the creditor side. However, I don't see it coming any time soon."

Varoufakis said that he liked the idea. It is not necessary to see it coming any time soon, the debate alone is important, and advances the agenda of the left.

by Katrin on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 03:44:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That doesn't prove what you claim it proves.
by IM on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 03:03:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What did I claim it proves? This is getting bizarre.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 03:21:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It is when you started to treat some half hearted claim of Greece, uttered every two decades or so, as viable. If all this so clear, why did Greece never did it take to court?  

Let is rest. This is an ill wind that blows nobody good.

by IM on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 03:28:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So you can't identify my supposed claim the ARD report supposedly doesn't support. I do note, however, that the ARD report definitely treated more than one claim from Greece as viable, so, again, you should direct your criticism at them.

This is an ill wind that blows nobody good.

What about the ill wind blowing out of Schäuble's mouth, unopposed (or even implicitly supported as in the case of Martin Schmidt)?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 03:48:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Is Schäuble about the Second World War or making other claims out of history? As far I know he doesn't. And the unopposed is just your claim, without any substance. Do you really think Germany that monolithic?

And nobody is defending Schäuble here, while you and others defend the worts nationalistic nonsense from Greece.

by IM on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 04:01:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Is Schäuble about the Second World War or making other claims out of history? As far I know he doesn't.
Greece's government bonds are history.

Stasi 2.0 is making quite a lot of hay over those.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 05:19:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"So you can't identify my supposed claim the ARD report supposedly doesn't support."

Your claim that it was a permanent and relevant greek government policy to pursue these claims and these claims are generally recognized.  

by IM on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 04:07:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
They did press the matter previously. Have you even read all the links we have provided that proved this? There is heavy documentation that they have been pressing for the loan forever.
by Upstate NY on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 02:01:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
By "pressing" I mean recognisable pressure.
by Katrin on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 02:04:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This has been an issue that has made international news repeatedly over the decades.
by Upstate NY on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 02:36:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
like the Loch Ness monster.
by IM on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 03:05:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And Germany would have avoided it altogether by simply paying the loan.
by Upstate NY on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 03:23:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, not at all. Because this would have reopened all other WW II claims. The other countries would never have accepted the "Greece is special!" claim.
by IM on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 03:35:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What other countries have pressed a war loan issue?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 03:50:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't know. But until recently I didn't knew about the lingering greek claim either. And "pressing" is an wild exaggeration.
by IM on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 03:53:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I tried to find sources on war loan issues with other occupied countries, but found absolutely nothing: it doesn't seem like any other countries brought that up. In contrast, I found additional details on the Greek forced loan issue before Syriza times. The first, in an interview with a historian from March 2013, is on the Red-Green period (and I also quote the part where the historian distinguishes the loan issue from reparations):

Historiker über Wehrmachtsmassaker: ,,Deutsche müssen Zeichen setzen" - taz.deHistorians on the Wehrmacht massacre: "Germans should make an example" - taz.de
[...] Dabei gab und gibt es Möglichkeiten für Entschädigungen, ohne dass die Deutschen ihre Position, keine Reparationen zu zahlen, aufgeben müssen. Etwa die Zwangsanleihe bei der griechischen Zentralbank [...] Schröder und Fischer signalisierten vor 1998 an Athen, sie wären ,,offen" für einen Kompromiss. Als Rot-Grün regierte, lehnte man Verhandlungen kategorisch ab. Der griechische Vertreter sagte mir damals: ,,Als wären wir gegen eine Glaswand geprallt."[...] Yet, there have been and are opportunities for compensation which wouldn't require the Germans to give up their position that they won't pay reparations. For example, the forced loan from the Central Bank of Greece [...] Before 1998, Schröder and Fischer signalled towards Athens that they are open for a compromise. Once Red-Green had came to govern, it rejected talks categorically. The Greek representative told me at the time: "It wads as if we hit a glass wall."

In December 2013, a study about the Greek loan issue was prepared for the German parliament. While the document basically details that none of the legal particulars are as clear-cut as the federal government claims (for example, the forced loans may have been legal under international law at the time and any statute of limitations would probably apply from 1990), it avoids definite claims for the most part, and the interesting part is only at the end: it explains that for Greece to make a legal claim before the ICJ, its own courts or the courts of a third country, it would need Germany's consent. For a 'hostile' lawsuit (that is, without the talks sought in Schröder's time), only German courts would be available.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 06:47:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"it explains that for Greece to make a legal claim before the ICJ, its own courts or the courts of a third country, it would need Germany's consent. For a 'hostile' lawsuit (that is, without the talks sought in Schröder's time), only German courts would be available. "

Yes, it is prettey clear the the ICJ has no jurisdiction, the Claim being to old. And in greek Courts there is state immunity (recently confirmed by the (ICJ)).

That leaves the german courts...

And then the german side could try to use the letter of the treaty: It is a no interest loan.

by IM on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 07:21:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Essentially, you are saying Germany avoids its debts because they are way too big.
by Upstate NY on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 04:50:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Not debt. Nothing so solid exists. We are talking about potential reparation claim of an unknown size, surely unnumbered. And yes they are in all probability much to big. And always were.

What you are claiming is that Greece is special. Why Greece and not e. g. Serbia?

by IM on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 04:56:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Why not Serbia? Seems to me that Serbia could make a couple of excellent cases for reparations against Germany.

Wouldn't even have to go all the way back to the War, if you accept that Serbia is the primary successor state to Yugoslavia.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 05:22:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Seems to me that Serbia could make a couple of excellent cases for reparations against Germany.

Yes, that is my point.

"Wouldn't even have to go all the way back to the War, if you accept that Serbia is the primary successor state to Yugoslavia."

We will talk about this as soon as Serbia has paid Croatia.

by IM on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 05:48:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Serbia isn't currently inflicting austerity on anyone.

Germany is.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 06:03:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
?

Ans o Serbia hasn't any riht zto rteparationd? the grecce isa special argumnts get more and more absurd.

by IM on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 06:21:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We will talk about this as soon as Serbia has paid Croatia.
Serbia isn't currently inflicting austerity on anyone.

I don't see any possible way this exchange could be confusing.

Greece is not special, but Germany is. Germany should be reminded of all the reparations it is in arrears for its war crimes right back to fucking Bismarck, because Germany is not meeting the central social justification for giving legal closure: That it enables the perpetrator to go back to being a productive member of society.

Germany is staging the latest in a long string of abusive hissy fits that threaten to tear Europe apart. Bringing up the long string of abusive hissy fits is therefore perfectly appropriate.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed Mar 18th, 2015 at 01:49:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
" because Germany is not meeting the central social justification for giving legal closure: "

namely following yur policy preferences of the moment to the letter.

Silly.

And calling the Holocaust hissy fit - now that is special.

by IM on Wed Mar 18th, 2015 at 01:59:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
By imposing policies on a sovereign country that flat up murder on the order of two hundred people per week.

If Merkel sent the Bundeswehr to Athens to shoot two hundred random Greeks on the Syntagma square every Saturday, she would be doing less damage than current policy.

Pretty sure having the Bundeswehr murder random foreigners for no reason is a crime that foreign governments could demand reparations over.

But apparently having the Bundesbank murder random foreigners for no reason is totally honky-dory.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed Mar 18th, 2015 at 02:07:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Normally, 'hunky dory' would be the appropriate description, however, in this case 'honky-dory' does seem a significant improvement!

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed Mar 18th, 2015 at 11:13:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
How about we don't bring up the Balkan wars when there is no immediate need to do so? We are arguing in circles already, if we just add the Balkan wars, Mohammed caricatures and Pussy riot we'll be able to compete with a pressurized water reactor in heat output.

For what its worth, the only real merit in bringing up ww2 I see was as an illustration that yes, debts are renegotiated all the time. Since there is no real prospect of getting money out of it right now, pressing the forced loan issue at this point won't help.

Overall I must admit that I misread the general dynamic. No cans have been kicked, the Euro side is going for broke.

by generic on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 07:29:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]


A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 08:24:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Greek government's strategy to talk to the decision-makers of the institutions rather than the technical experts only achieved that those decision-makers made clear that the technical experts do their bidding.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Mar 18th, 2015 at 03:59:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But we knew this and I can only assume they knew it too. So what happens now?
by generic on Wed Mar 18th, 2015 at 06:17:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Read below however.

WHen the technocrats reject humanitarian laws, the decision makers take cover, as Moscovici has by disavowing the rejection.

No doubt they will come at the Greeks in other ways, but this electoral promise cannot be openly rejected in public now.

by Upstate NY on Wed Mar 18th, 2015 at 09:23:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think that's a fair way of putting it. Anything wrong with the principle? ;)
by Katrin on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 04:58:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What's your standard for "recognisable"?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 03:07:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
more noise.

It is nice to see that the only part of my post you all get excited over is the part where I found previous Greek governments lacking zeal in pressing the matter. (Would you really say "press" for a performance like that und normal circs?)

No disagreement about the main point then. Good.

And the proposal is getting more support: http://www.zeit.de/wirtschaft/2015-03/griechenland-reparation-jugendwerk

by Katrin on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 03:20:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
more noise.

Compared to what? Isn't your standard that you, personally, haven't heard of these Greek government protests via German media before (while Upstate NY's equally subjective standard is that she kept reading of those in Greek media)?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 03:28:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
" haven't heard of these Greek government protests via German media before"

While you did read daily about these claims prior to 2008?

Are you kidding me?

by IM on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 03:37:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
While you did read daily about these claims prior to 2008?

Where have you read me make such a claim? It would really do good for the debate if you wouldn't make up your own fantasy version of other people's opinions.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 03:51:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If you haven't made this claim, what is your point? That the greek government seriously pursued this claim but nobody ever noticed it?

I didn't notice, you didn't notice - how silent was the greek campaign?

The best kept secret in international politics, it seems.

by IM on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 03:56:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The point is that you rfuse to recognise your subjectiveness. If you haven't noticed it, it doesn't mean that nobody noticed it. Upstate NY noticed it, so did the German historian in the Red-Green era I quoted above.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 06:53:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
" If you haven't noticed it, it doesn't mean that nobody noticed it."

So all you have is a historian who specializes in german-greek after war relations. Hardly the general public, in any country.  So yes, nobody has brought this up publicly in decades. And nobody, really nobody make this claims besides Fleischer. Quite touching that he wants to prove his greek Soul or whatever. But if read the interview again, even he says that nobody talked about the second world war in Greece in decades.  

by IM on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 07:09:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Katrin, I thought you might be interested in this:

http://www.macropolis.gr/?i=portal.en.the-agora.2371&itemId=2371

by Upstate NY on Fri Mar 20th, 2015 at 11:36:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Even if I agreed now, for argument's sake, that there had always been "noise" on the Greek side, the rest of my post would still stand.
by Katrin on Fri Mar 20th, 2015 at 02:55:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Not it isn't. That would be up for negotiation.
by IM on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 01:03:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Debt is debt.
by Upstate NY on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 01:11:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Is that you, Mr Schäuble?

Seriously. That is not the way to challenge the dominant narrative. It is the complete surrender of alternative policy.

by Katrin on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 02:06:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No one said you have to pay the whole debt, just some of it.

I also believe Greece should pay most of the debt it owes, to the extent that it can.

This is Syriza's position as well. It is indeed almost everyone's position associated with Greece, including some of the radical left elements of the party.

by Upstate NY on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 02:35:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Varoufakis also spoke about debt restructuring with growth-linked bonds, and also about a Merkel Plan, Herrmann's idea is not that far from those.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 03:05:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
just some of it.

what happened to "debt is debt!"?

by IM on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 03:06:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No it isn't and it never was.
by IM on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 03:01:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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