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Well, it isn't the Greek government's money. It is money they would like to have. Money they say they have a claim to. This claim is disputed, obviously. The dispute will make some experts for international law rich, but I am not sure if the courts we have can resolve it. If the money was so unequivocally Greece's, previous governments would probably pressed the matter too, and the German government would have chosen a different approach.  

So Greece can claim the money, insist it is a debt that must be paid and all that. That's not the kind of debate I want. It would be very damaging for Europe. Even if we say that Germany started it, that kindergarten: who started throwing sand. And don't count on too much understanding in Germany either. I am fairly sympathetic to the Greek claims, but this sort of debate inevitably brings the sort of "arguments" that make me flap my ears. So, if you want something divisive, that alienates the part of the German public that is on Greece's side, go ahead.

Herrmann's suggestion kills this divisive debate of claims and counter-claims. The question isn't if Greece or Germany owns the money, the question suddenly is if we can have a nice educational and cultural foundation that can do a lot of good. We are suddenly talking about spending money.

by Katrin on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 12:54:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This claim is disputed, obviously. [...] If the money was so unequivocally Greece's, previous governments would probably pressed the matter too

Um, have you watched that ARD segment linked by Upstate NY?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 01:32:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It doesn't contradict me. Previous governments did not overly press the matter. Why not? If the claim was perfectly clear, AND there was a clear method of making Germany pay, surely previous governments would have pressed the claim. That would have been more than an occasional diplomatic letter. Personally I find the Greek claim convincing. I don't think it has a high chance of success though. So: it is not the Greek Government's money. It is not even likely that it will become the Greek government's money.
by Katrin on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 02:03:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
By adding "overly", you changed your previous claim, which is contradicted by the fact that previous governments kept bringing up the matter, only to be told that it's too soon to bring this up before Reunification and that it's too late after Reunification.

After adding "overly", perhaps you should consider the aspirations of Greek governments over the past few decades to join the EU and then the Euro rather than any legal ambiguity those governments might have recognised.

The lack of a clear method of making Germany pay (with no international court willing to take up the matter so far) is indeed a significant, though separate, issue. And if that remains the sole reason to term the money not Greece's, that sounds like blackmail, which would indeed be insulting.

However, I should have pointed out that I actually agree on the wisdom of Herrmann's suggestion: it would just be the kind of policy Varoufakis advocates, a growth-supporting measure that allows some face-saving on the creditor side. However, I don't see it coming any time soon.

The Jauch incident showed that any attempt to get through to the German public opinion was doomed from the start: in the current poisoned German MSM landscape (even with critical reports like the above discussed one on ARD), even if you win the debate on substance against the right-wingers and a supposedly impartial moderator acting as attack dog (and the model Bildungsbürger at that!), they will completely overshadow that with a superficial non-issue like Fingergate. And, alarmingly, with success, as shown by the latest polls on Greece. And I don't see Schäuble weakened at all. No one in the MSM or mainstream politics is confronting Schäuble's incendiary provocations, quite the contrary: for example, when Kammenos protested those in Bild, Martin Schmidt of the EP had no better idea than to cal on Tsipras to end his coalition with Kammenos who "insulted" Schäuble.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 03:01:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And if that remains the sole reason to term the money not Greece's, that sounds like blackmail, which would indeed be insulting.

Who is blackmailing whom? The whole incident is basically an inept case of Greece trying to blackmail Germany with the german past. Won't work, as I pointed out.

"However, I should have pointed out that I actually agree on the wisdom of Herrmann's suggestion:"

I thought it ids too insulting?

by IM on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 03:12:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It isn't blackmail at all.

That's an insult, actually.

And secondly, it shows that only some loans and some debt are valid for you, but not others.

Given Germany's history with debt, this is absolutely astonishing.

by Upstate NY on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 03:25:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"That's an insult, actually."

If only. Or the wouldn't bring it up in this context.

"And secondly, it shows that only some loans and some debt are valid for you, but not others."

You don't say. History is littered with unpaid debt.

"Given Germany's history with debt, this is absolutely astonishing."

I am not "Germany", you know. And if you think only Germany defaulted during the Great Recession I can point you to the direction of France and the UK.

by IM on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 03:33:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

 The Jauch incident showed that any attempt to get through to the German public opinion was doomed from the start:

Nonsense. Varoufakis had a very good hour.

for example, when Kammenos protested those in Bild, Martin Schmidt of the EP had no better idea than to cal on Tsipras to end his coalition with Kammenos who "insulted" Schäuble.

Kammenos, like the rest of Anel, is a nincompop and the earlier Tsipras can get rid of him and fools like the justice minister, the better.

by IM on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 03:17:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You know we might have less exploding threads if you wouldn't call statements you disagree with nonsense. I mean sure everybody who watched the show paid attention and isn't helplessly biased must admit that overall he did very well. But everyone who didn't will only hear about his finger.
by generic on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 03:36:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And while I fully agree that Kammenos, like the rest of Anel, is a nincompop and the earlier Tsipras can get rid of him the better, that still doesn't invalidate Kammenos's criticism of Schäuble and doesn't validate Schnmidt's claim that this criticism is a reason to get rid of Kammenos. Nor does it invalidate my claim that there is no serious criticism of Schäuble in the German MSM and mainstream politics, rather the opposite.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 03:42:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
". Nor does it invalidate my claim that there is no serious criticism of Schäuble in the German MSM and mainstream politics, rather the opposite"

And that is wrong.And compared to Kammenos, even Schäuble is restrained.

by IM on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 03:45:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And that is wrong.

If you would care to substantiate that, that would improve the noise to signal ratio and actually do something against the ill winds blowing in this blog.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 03:54:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No: You made the extraordinary claim: That nobody in Germany opposes Schäuble. So should prove that.

And could you cease these personal attacks?

by IM on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 04:03:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Now you're demanding that DoDo proves a negative.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 05:19:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No I don't . His claim, his proof.
by IM on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 05:21:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You are demanding that DoDo proves that nobody in the German political mainstream opposes Stasi 2.0's Greece policy.

How is that not demanding that DoDo proves a negative?

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 05:33:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Then perhaps he shouldn't make such sweeping claims.

Here one example of critique. mainstream enough?

http://www.zeit.de/wirtschaft/2015-02/wolfgang-schaeuble-eurokrise

by IM on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 05:39:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That is a criticism of Stasi 2.0's style, not of the substance.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 05:43:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
by IM on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 06:15:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, it's nice that SPD guys spoke out against Schäuble's veto a month ago (so did Merkel, in her way), and it is also nice that the Herdentrieb blogger (whom I also quoted earlier) spoke out against the Syriza-are-loons MSM consensus also a month ago (though considering him mainstream just because of the Die Zeit hosting is a bit of a stretch, same for Martin Wolf and Jakob Augstein at Spiegel-Online).

But what I wanted to see was criticism of Schäuble's incendiary provocations, now. Have you ran across ones like those? I didn't. (Well unless taz columnists count as MSM.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 07:29:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You are just moving the goalposts. And if ZEIT is no longer mainstream, then that?  Schieritz is regular journalist there, by the way.

But here we are, Carsten Schneider of all people

- hardly a bolschevik

http://www.all-in.de/nachrichten/deutschland_welt/politik/SPD-Fraktionsvize-Schneider-kritisiert-Sch aeubles-Ton-gegenueber-Athen;art15808,1911970

by IM on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 07:39:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Good, I was hoping for something like this. For the benefit of readers not speaking German:

Rheinische Post: SPD-Fraktionsvize Schneider kritisiert Schäubles Ton gegenüber Griechen | Pressemitteilung Rheinische Post Rheinische Post: SPD parliamentary group deputy leader Schneider criticizes Schäuble's tone towards Greeks | Rheinische Post press release
Düsseldorf (ots) - SPD-Fraktionsvize Carsten Schneider hat den Ton von Finanzminister Wolfgang Schäuble (CDU) gegenüber der griechischen Regierung kritisiert. "Als Finanzminister hat man gegenüber den Finanzmärkten eine ganz besondere Funktion. Es ist immer besser, man sagt wenig oder gar nichts, als weiter zur Eskalation der Lage beizutragen", sagte Schneider der in Düsseldorf erscheinenden "Rheinischen Post" (Samstagausgabe). "Schweigen wäre für Schäuble jetzt besser", mahnte Schneider am Rande eines Besuchs in Athen. Dusseldorf (ots) - Carsten Schneider, deputy leader of the SPD's parliamentary group, criticized the tone of finance minister Wolfgang Schäuble (CDU) towards the Greek government. "As finance minister, one has a special role towards financial markets. It is always better to say little or nothing than to contribute further to the escalation of the situation," Schneider the Dusseldorf-based "Rheinische Post" newspaper (Saturday edition). "It would be better for Schäuble now to stay silent," Schneider warned at the edge of a visit to Athens.

Now let's make some things clear. My concern is not being Right® in a debate on the internet, but with the apparent descent of public debate in Germany to the level of the US one during the Iraq War. I focus on the MSM and mainstream politicians because that's where normal non-political-junkie citizens (like the ones I met last week in Vienna) get their cues from. Mark Schieritz may sway followers of his blog (and he had a more on-topic missive than the one you linked here, also a month ago), but this is not what he gets printed in Die Welt. Martin Wolf may be allowed to ramble on at S.P.O.N., but that has zero effect on the editorial line which rather publishes shit like this narration of Schäuble. Even at taz, which defines itself outside the MSM (though they followed the Greens towards the mainstream), it makes Ulrike Herrmann's regular columns sound a voice in the wilderness when news reporting consists of pieces like the first two paragraphs of this one in which the editorial board allows with the gross bias of apparent wire reports left unchanged.

In fact, while I am happy to be dis-proven about the complete silence of mainstream critical voices and the indication that the SPD is not completely on-board with Schäuble's policy after all, concerns remain. I find that apart from the original source and Left-Party-aligned neues deutschland, only the East Berlin tabloid Berliner Kurier saw it newsworthy to report Carsten's criticism, which contrasts with the across-the-board reporting of Martin Schmidt's defence of Schäuble. Also, in the SPD, it would have been nicer if we heard this not from Carsten but foreign minister Steinmeier, who instead accused the Greek government (rather than his fellow minister) of making the conflict bilateral.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Mar 18th, 2015 at 03:56:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"Now let's make some things clear. My concern is not being Right® in a debate on the internet,"

You could have fooled me.

" but with the apparent descent of public debate in Germany to the level of the US one during the Iraq War."

A strange narrative you build there. And you defend it by including a smaller and smaller part of they german media into your MSM Definition.

"but foreign minister Steinmeier, who instead accused the Greek government (rather than his fellow minister) of making the conflict bilateral."

Rightly. The greek government tries to make the cónflict bilateral and many e. g. on this blog think that is the cleverest strategy since Odysseus.  I am reminded of Pyrrhus.

by IM on Wed Mar 18th, 2015 at 09:35:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, Kammenos isn't currently heading up the legalized murder of around fifty of Stasi 2.0's countrymen per business day. Which is somewhere in the ballpark of what the poverty-related excess mortality from the current sanctions regime comes to.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 03:56:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
 "I mean sure everybody who watched the show paid attention and isn't helplessly biased must admit that overall he did very well."

That is my point

 "But everyone who didn't will only hear about his finger."

Media coverage was more differentiated then that.

by IM on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 03:42:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
e. g. here, where it is quite long explained what Varoufakis actually said, in what context he said it and so on:

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/griechenland-das-sagte-varoufakis-in-der-stinkefinger-rede-a-1 023977.html

by IM on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 05:34:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This is not a bad article, but my point was that, like Spiegel itself prints here, only the sequence with him raising his finger toward Germany stays in memory. And this article is like most others I've seen about what YV did or didn't say or do in 2013.
by generic on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 06:02:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
 "And this article is like most others I've seen about what YV did or didn't say or do in 2013."

Then  don't see your problem. The media reaction seems to be correct.

by IM on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 06:19:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The problem is that he doesn't get his message through. The best outcome he can get is a general realization that ARD treated him unfairly. While what he needs to get through is that he is much too reasonable for the Eurogroup/ECB to provoke a crisis over.
by generic on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 06:45:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The video was doctored as they spliced his sentences together in a voiceover. Even ARD admitted it was doctored.
by Upstate NY on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 08:31:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Now you concede that there are several reasons why previous governments did not pursue the matter with so much zeal. Or overly press it or whatever. Need we go further into semantics? Apparently we are not that far apart: the statement that it was undisputedly Greece's money simply is false.

"However, I should have pointed out that I actually agree on the wisdom of Herrmann's suggestion: it would just be the kind of policy Varoufakis advocates, a growth-supporting measure that allows some face-saving on the creditor side. However, I don't see it coming any time soon."

Varoufakis said that he liked the idea. It is not necessary to see it coming any time soon, the debate alone is important, and advances the agenda of the left.

by Katrin on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 03:44:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That doesn't prove what you claim it proves.
by IM on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 03:03:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What did I claim it proves? This is getting bizarre.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 03:21:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It is when you started to treat some half hearted claim of Greece, uttered every two decades or so, as viable. If all this so clear, why did Greece never did it take to court?  

Let is rest. This is an ill wind that blows nobody good.

by IM on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 03:28:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So you can't identify my supposed claim the ARD report supposedly doesn't support. I do note, however, that the ARD report definitely treated more than one claim from Greece as viable, so, again, you should direct your criticism at them.

This is an ill wind that blows nobody good.

What about the ill wind blowing out of Schäuble's mouth, unopposed (or even implicitly supported as in the case of Martin Schmidt)?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 03:48:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Is Schäuble about the Second World War or making other claims out of history? As far I know he doesn't. And the unopposed is just your claim, without any substance. Do you really think Germany that monolithic?

And nobody is defending Schäuble here, while you and others defend the worts nationalistic nonsense from Greece.

by IM on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 04:01:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Is Schäuble about the Second World War or making other claims out of history? As far I know he doesn't.
Greece's government bonds are history.

Stasi 2.0 is making quite a lot of hay over those.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 05:19:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"So you can't identify my supposed claim the ARD report supposedly doesn't support."

Your claim that it was a permanent and relevant greek government policy to pursue these claims and these claims are generally recognized.  

by IM on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 04:07:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
They did press the matter previously. Have you even read all the links we have provided that proved this? There is heavy documentation that they have been pressing for the loan forever.
by Upstate NY on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 02:01:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
By "pressing" I mean recognisable pressure.
by Katrin on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 02:04:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This has been an issue that has made international news repeatedly over the decades.
by Upstate NY on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 02:36:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
like the Loch Ness monster.
by IM on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 03:05:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And Germany would have avoided it altogether by simply paying the loan.
by Upstate NY on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 03:23:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, not at all. Because this would have reopened all other WW II claims. The other countries would never have accepted the "Greece is special!" claim.
by IM on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 03:35:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What other countries have pressed a war loan issue?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 03:50:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't know. But until recently I didn't knew about the lingering greek claim either. And "pressing" is an wild exaggeration.
by IM on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 03:53:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I tried to find sources on war loan issues with other occupied countries, but found absolutely nothing: it doesn't seem like any other countries brought that up. In contrast, I found additional details on the Greek forced loan issue before Syriza times. The first, in an interview with a historian from March 2013, is on the Red-Green period (and I also quote the part where the historian distinguishes the loan issue from reparations):

Historiker über Wehrmachtsmassaker: ,,Deutsche müssen Zeichen setzen" - taz.deHistorians on the Wehrmacht massacre: "Germans should make an example" - taz.de
[...] Dabei gab und gibt es Möglichkeiten für Entschädigungen, ohne dass die Deutschen ihre Position, keine Reparationen zu zahlen, aufgeben müssen. Etwa die Zwangsanleihe bei der griechischen Zentralbank [...] Schröder und Fischer signalisierten vor 1998 an Athen, sie wären ,,offen" für einen Kompromiss. Als Rot-Grün regierte, lehnte man Verhandlungen kategorisch ab. Der griechische Vertreter sagte mir damals: ,,Als wären wir gegen eine Glaswand geprallt."[...] Yet, there have been and are opportunities for compensation which wouldn't require the Germans to give up their position that they won't pay reparations. For example, the forced loan from the Central Bank of Greece [...] Before 1998, Schröder and Fischer signalled towards Athens that they are open for a compromise. Once Red-Green had came to govern, it rejected talks categorically. The Greek representative told me at the time: "It wads as if we hit a glass wall."

In December 2013, a study about the Greek loan issue was prepared for the German parliament. While the document basically details that none of the legal particulars are as clear-cut as the federal government claims (for example, the forced loans may have been legal under international law at the time and any statute of limitations would probably apply from 1990), it avoids definite claims for the most part, and the interesting part is only at the end: it explains that for Greece to make a legal claim before the ICJ, its own courts or the courts of a third country, it would need Germany's consent. For a 'hostile' lawsuit (that is, without the talks sought in Schröder's time), only German courts would be available.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 06:47:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"it explains that for Greece to make a legal claim before the ICJ, its own courts or the courts of a third country, it would need Germany's consent. For a 'hostile' lawsuit (that is, without the talks sought in Schröder's time), only German courts would be available. "

Yes, it is prettey clear the the ICJ has no jurisdiction, the Claim being to old. And in greek Courts there is state immunity (recently confirmed by the (ICJ)).

That leaves the german courts...

And then the german side could try to use the letter of the treaty: It is a no interest loan.

by IM on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 07:21:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Essentially, you are saying Germany avoids its debts because they are way too big.
by Upstate NY on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 04:50:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Not debt. Nothing so solid exists. We are talking about potential reparation claim of an unknown size, surely unnumbered. And yes they are in all probability much to big. And always were.

What you are claiming is that Greece is special. Why Greece and not e. g. Serbia?

by IM on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 04:56:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Why not Serbia? Seems to me that Serbia could make a couple of excellent cases for reparations against Germany.

Wouldn't even have to go all the way back to the War, if you accept that Serbia is the primary successor state to Yugoslavia.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 05:22:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Seems to me that Serbia could make a couple of excellent cases for reparations against Germany.

Yes, that is my point.

"Wouldn't even have to go all the way back to the War, if you accept that Serbia is the primary successor state to Yugoslavia."

We will talk about this as soon as Serbia has paid Croatia.

by IM on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 05:48:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Serbia isn't currently inflicting austerity on anyone.

Germany is.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 06:03:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
?

Ans o Serbia hasn't any riht zto rteparationd? the grecce isa special argumnts get more and more absurd.

by IM on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 06:21:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We will talk about this as soon as Serbia has paid Croatia.
Serbia isn't currently inflicting austerity on anyone.

I don't see any possible way this exchange could be confusing.

Greece is not special, but Germany is. Germany should be reminded of all the reparations it is in arrears for its war crimes right back to fucking Bismarck, because Germany is not meeting the central social justification for giving legal closure: That it enables the perpetrator to go back to being a productive member of society.

Germany is staging the latest in a long string of abusive hissy fits that threaten to tear Europe apart. Bringing up the long string of abusive hissy fits is therefore perfectly appropriate.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed Mar 18th, 2015 at 01:49:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
" because Germany is not meeting the central social justification for giving legal closure: "

namely following yur policy preferences of the moment to the letter.

Silly.

And calling the Holocaust hissy fit - now that is special.

by IM on Wed Mar 18th, 2015 at 01:59:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
By imposing policies on a sovereign country that flat up murder on the order of two hundred people per week.

If Merkel sent the Bundeswehr to Athens to shoot two hundred random Greeks on the Syntagma square every Saturday, she would be doing less damage than current policy.

Pretty sure having the Bundeswehr murder random foreigners for no reason is a crime that foreign governments could demand reparations over.

But apparently having the Bundesbank murder random foreigners for no reason is totally honky-dory.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed Mar 18th, 2015 at 02:07:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Normally, 'hunky dory' would be the appropriate description, however, in this case 'honky-dory' does seem a significant improvement!

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed Mar 18th, 2015 at 11:13:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
How about we don't bring up the Balkan wars when there is no immediate need to do so? We are arguing in circles already, if we just add the Balkan wars, Mohammed caricatures and Pussy riot we'll be able to compete with a pressurized water reactor in heat output.

For what its worth, the only real merit in bringing up ww2 I see was as an illustration that yes, debts are renegotiated all the time. Since there is no real prospect of getting money out of it right now, pressing the forced loan issue at this point won't help.

Overall I must admit that I misread the general dynamic. No cans have been kicked, the Euro side is going for broke.

by generic on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 07:29:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]


A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 08:24:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Greek government's strategy to talk to the decision-makers of the institutions rather than the technical experts only achieved that those decision-makers made clear that the technical experts do their bidding.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Mar 18th, 2015 at 03:59:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But we knew this and I can only assume they knew it too. So what happens now?
by generic on Wed Mar 18th, 2015 at 06:17:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Read below however.

WHen the technocrats reject humanitarian laws, the decision makers take cover, as Moscovici has by disavowing the rejection.

No doubt they will come at the Greeks in other ways, but this electoral promise cannot be openly rejected in public now.

by Upstate NY on Wed Mar 18th, 2015 at 09:23:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think that's a fair way of putting it. Anything wrong with the principle? ;)
by Katrin on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 04:58:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What's your standard for "recognisable"?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 03:07:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
more noise.

It is nice to see that the only part of my post you all get excited over is the part where I found previous Greek governments lacking zeal in pressing the matter. (Would you really say "press" for a performance like that und normal circs?)

No disagreement about the main point then. Good.

And the proposal is getting more support: http://www.zeit.de/wirtschaft/2015-03/griechenland-reparation-jugendwerk

by Katrin on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 03:20:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
more noise.

Compared to what? Isn't your standard that you, personally, haven't heard of these Greek government protests via German media before (while Upstate NY's equally subjective standard is that she kept reading of those in Greek media)?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 03:28:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
" haven't heard of these Greek government protests via German media before"

While you did read daily about these claims prior to 2008?

Are you kidding me?

by IM on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 03:37:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
While you did read daily about these claims prior to 2008?

Where have you read me make such a claim? It would really do good for the debate if you wouldn't make up your own fantasy version of other people's opinions.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 03:51:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If you haven't made this claim, what is your point? That the greek government seriously pursued this claim but nobody ever noticed it?

I didn't notice, you didn't notice - how silent was the greek campaign?

The best kept secret in international politics, it seems.

by IM on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 03:56:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The point is that you rfuse to recognise your subjectiveness. If you haven't noticed it, it doesn't mean that nobody noticed it. Upstate NY noticed it, so did the German historian in the Red-Green era I quoted above.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 06:53:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
" If you haven't noticed it, it doesn't mean that nobody noticed it."

So all you have is a historian who specializes in german-greek after war relations. Hardly the general public, in any country.  So yes, nobody has brought this up publicly in decades. And nobody, really nobody make this claims besides Fleischer. Quite touching that he wants to prove his greek Soul or whatever. But if read the interview again, even he says that nobody talked about the second world war in Greece in decades.  

by IM on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 07:09:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Katrin, I thought you might be interested in this:

http://www.macropolis.gr/?i=portal.en.the-agora.2371&itemId=2371

by Upstate NY on Fri Mar 20th, 2015 at 11:36:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Even if I agreed now, for argument's sake, that there had always been "noise" on the Greek side, the rest of my post would still stand.
by Katrin on Fri Mar 20th, 2015 at 02:55:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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