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By adding "overly", you changed your previous claim, which is contradicted by the fact that previous governments kept bringing up the matter, only to be told that it's too soon to bring this up before Reunification and that it's too late after Reunification.

After adding "overly", perhaps you should consider the aspirations of Greek governments over the past few decades to join the EU and then the Euro rather than any legal ambiguity those governments might have recognised.

The lack of a clear method of making Germany pay (with no international court willing to take up the matter so far) is indeed a significant, though separate, issue. And if that remains the sole reason to term the money not Greece's, that sounds like blackmail, which would indeed be insulting.

However, I should have pointed out that I actually agree on the wisdom of Herrmann's suggestion: it would just be the kind of policy Varoufakis advocates, a growth-supporting measure that allows some face-saving on the creditor side. However, I don't see it coming any time soon.

The Jauch incident showed that any attempt to get through to the German public opinion was doomed from the start: in the current poisoned German MSM landscape (even with critical reports like the above discussed one on ARD), even if you win the debate on substance against the right-wingers and a supposedly impartial moderator acting as attack dog (and the model Bildungsbürger at that!), they will completely overshadow that with a superficial non-issue like Fingergate. And, alarmingly, with success, as shown by the latest polls on Greece. And I don't see Schäuble weakened at all. No one in the MSM or mainstream politics is confronting Schäuble's incendiary provocations, quite the contrary: for example, when Kammenos protested those in Bild, Martin Schmidt of the EP had no better idea than to cal on Tsipras to end his coalition with Kammenos who "insulted" Schäuble.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 03:01:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And if that remains the sole reason to term the money not Greece's, that sounds like blackmail, which would indeed be insulting.

Who is blackmailing whom? The whole incident is basically an inept case of Greece trying to blackmail Germany with the german past. Won't work, as I pointed out.

"However, I should have pointed out that I actually agree on the wisdom of Herrmann's suggestion:"

I thought it ids too insulting?

by IM on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 03:12:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It isn't blackmail at all.

That's an insult, actually.

And secondly, it shows that only some loans and some debt are valid for you, but not others.

Given Germany's history with debt, this is absolutely astonishing.

by Upstate NY on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 03:25:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"That's an insult, actually."

If only. Or the wouldn't bring it up in this context.

"And secondly, it shows that only some loans and some debt are valid for you, but not others."

You don't say. History is littered with unpaid debt.

"Given Germany's history with debt, this is absolutely astonishing."

I am not "Germany", you know. And if you think only Germany defaulted during the Great Recession I can point you to the direction of France and the UK.

by IM on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 03:33:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

 The Jauch incident showed that any attempt to get through to the German public opinion was doomed from the start:

Nonsense. Varoufakis had a very good hour.

for example, when Kammenos protested those in Bild, Martin Schmidt of the EP had no better idea than to cal on Tsipras to end his coalition with Kammenos who "insulted" Schäuble.

Kammenos, like the rest of Anel, is a nincompop and the earlier Tsipras can get rid of him and fools like the justice minister, the better.

by IM on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 03:17:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You know we might have less exploding threads if you wouldn't call statements you disagree with nonsense. I mean sure everybody who watched the show paid attention and isn't helplessly biased must admit that overall he did very well. But everyone who didn't will only hear about his finger.
by generic on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 03:36:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And while I fully agree that Kammenos, like the rest of Anel, is a nincompop and the earlier Tsipras can get rid of him the better, that still doesn't invalidate Kammenos's criticism of Schäuble and doesn't validate Schnmidt's claim that this criticism is a reason to get rid of Kammenos. Nor does it invalidate my claim that there is no serious criticism of Schäuble in the German MSM and mainstream politics, rather the opposite.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 03:42:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
". Nor does it invalidate my claim that there is no serious criticism of Schäuble in the German MSM and mainstream politics, rather the opposite"

And that is wrong.And compared to Kammenos, even Schäuble is restrained.

by IM on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 03:45:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And that is wrong.

If you would care to substantiate that, that would improve the noise to signal ratio and actually do something against the ill winds blowing in this blog.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 03:54:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No: You made the extraordinary claim: That nobody in Germany opposes Schäuble. So should prove that.

And could you cease these personal attacks?

by IM on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 04:03:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Now you're demanding that DoDo proves a negative.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 05:19:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No I don't . His claim, his proof.
by IM on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 05:21:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You are demanding that DoDo proves that nobody in the German political mainstream opposes Stasi 2.0's Greece policy.

How is that not demanding that DoDo proves a negative?

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 05:33:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Then perhaps he shouldn't make such sweeping claims.

Here one example of critique. mainstream enough?

http://www.zeit.de/wirtschaft/2015-02/wolfgang-schaeuble-eurokrise

by IM on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 05:39:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That is a criticism of Stasi 2.0's style, not of the substance.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 05:43:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
by IM on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 06:15:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, it's nice that SPD guys spoke out against Schäuble's veto a month ago (so did Merkel, in her way), and it is also nice that the Herdentrieb blogger (whom I also quoted earlier) spoke out against the Syriza-are-loons MSM consensus also a month ago (though considering him mainstream just because of the Die Zeit hosting is a bit of a stretch, same for Martin Wolf and Jakob Augstein at Spiegel-Online).

But what I wanted to see was criticism of Schäuble's incendiary provocations, now. Have you ran across ones like those? I didn't. (Well unless taz columnists count as MSM.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 07:29:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You are just moving the goalposts. And if ZEIT is no longer mainstream, then that?  Schieritz is regular journalist there, by the way.

But here we are, Carsten Schneider of all people

- hardly a bolschevik

http://www.all-in.de/nachrichten/deutschland_welt/politik/SPD-Fraktionsvize-Schneider-kritisiert-Sch aeubles-Ton-gegenueber-Athen;art15808,1911970

by IM on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 07:39:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Good, I was hoping for something like this. For the benefit of readers not speaking German:

Rheinische Post: SPD-Fraktionsvize Schneider kritisiert Schäubles Ton gegenüber Griechen | Pressemitteilung Rheinische Post Rheinische Post: SPD parliamentary group deputy leader Schneider criticizes Schäuble's tone towards Greeks | Rheinische Post press release
Düsseldorf (ots) - SPD-Fraktionsvize Carsten Schneider hat den Ton von Finanzminister Wolfgang Schäuble (CDU) gegenüber der griechischen Regierung kritisiert. "Als Finanzminister hat man gegenüber den Finanzmärkten eine ganz besondere Funktion. Es ist immer besser, man sagt wenig oder gar nichts, als weiter zur Eskalation der Lage beizutragen", sagte Schneider der in Düsseldorf erscheinenden "Rheinischen Post" (Samstagausgabe). "Schweigen wäre für Schäuble jetzt besser", mahnte Schneider am Rande eines Besuchs in Athen. Dusseldorf (ots) - Carsten Schneider, deputy leader of the SPD's parliamentary group, criticized the tone of finance minister Wolfgang Schäuble (CDU) towards the Greek government. "As finance minister, one has a special role towards financial markets. It is always better to say little or nothing than to contribute further to the escalation of the situation," Schneider the Dusseldorf-based "Rheinische Post" newspaper (Saturday edition). "It would be better for Schäuble now to stay silent," Schneider warned at the edge of a visit to Athens.

Now let's make some things clear. My concern is not being Right® in a debate on the internet, but with the apparent descent of public debate in Germany to the level of the US one during the Iraq War. I focus on the MSM and mainstream politicians because that's where normal non-political-junkie citizens (like the ones I met last week in Vienna) get their cues from. Mark Schieritz may sway followers of his blog (and he had a more on-topic missive than the one you linked here, also a month ago), but this is not what he gets printed in Die Welt. Martin Wolf may be allowed to ramble on at S.P.O.N., but that has zero effect on the editorial line which rather publishes shit like this narration of Schäuble. Even at taz, which defines itself outside the MSM (though they followed the Greens towards the mainstream), it makes Ulrike Herrmann's regular columns sound a voice in the wilderness when news reporting consists of pieces like the first two paragraphs of this one in which the editorial board allows with the gross bias of apparent wire reports left unchanged.

In fact, while I am happy to be dis-proven about the complete silence of mainstream critical voices and the indication that the SPD is not completely on-board with Schäuble's policy after all, concerns remain. I find that apart from the original source and Left-Party-aligned neues deutschland, only the East Berlin tabloid Berliner Kurier saw it newsworthy to report Carsten's criticism, which contrasts with the across-the-board reporting of Martin Schmidt's defence of Schäuble. Also, in the SPD, it would have been nicer if we heard this not from Carsten but foreign minister Steinmeier, who instead accused the Greek government (rather than his fellow minister) of making the conflict bilateral.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Mar 18th, 2015 at 03:56:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"Now let's make some things clear. My concern is not being Right® in a debate on the internet,"

You could have fooled me.

" but with the apparent descent of public debate in Germany to the level of the US one during the Iraq War."

A strange narrative you build there. And you defend it by including a smaller and smaller part of they german media into your MSM Definition.

"but foreign minister Steinmeier, who instead accused the Greek government (rather than his fellow minister) of making the conflict bilateral."

Rightly. The greek government tries to make the cónflict bilateral and many e. g. on this blog think that is the cleverest strategy since Odysseus.  I am reminded of Pyrrhus.

by IM on Wed Mar 18th, 2015 at 09:35:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, Kammenos isn't currently heading up the legalized murder of around fifty of Stasi 2.0's countrymen per business day. Which is somewhere in the ballpark of what the poverty-related excess mortality from the current sanctions regime comes to.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 03:56:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
 "I mean sure everybody who watched the show paid attention and isn't helplessly biased must admit that overall he did very well."

That is my point

 "But everyone who didn't will only hear about his finger."

Media coverage was more differentiated then that.

by IM on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 03:42:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
e. g. here, where it is quite long explained what Varoufakis actually said, in what context he said it and so on:

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/griechenland-das-sagte-varoufakis-in-der-stinkefinger-rede-a-1 023977.html

by IM on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 05:34:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This is not a bad article, but my point was that, like Spiegel itself prints here, only the sequence with him raising his finger toward Germany stays in memory. And this article is like most others I've seen about what YV did or didn't say or do in 2013.
by generic on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 06:02:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
 "And this article is like most others I've seen about what YV did or didn't say or do in 2013."

Then  don't see your problem. The media reaction seems to be correct.

by IM on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 06:19:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The problem is that he doesn't get his message through. The best outcome he can get is a general realization that ARD treated him unfairly. While what he needs to get through is that he is much too reasonable for the Eurogroup/ECB to provoke a crisis over.
by generic on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 06:45:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The video was doctored as they spliced his sentences together in a voiceover. Even ARD admitted it was doctored.
by Upstate NY on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 08:31:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Now you concede that there are several reasons why previous governments did not pursue the matter with so much zeal. Or overly press it or whatever. Need we go further into semantics? Apparently we are not that far apart: the statement that it was undisputedly Greece's money simply is false.

"However, I should have pointed out that I actually agree on the wisdom of Herrmann's suggestion: it would just be the kind of policy Varoufakis advocates, a growth-supporting measure that allows some face-saving on the creditor side. However, I don't see it coming any time soon."

Varoufakis said that he liked the idea. It is not necessary to see it coming any time soon, the debate alone is important, and advances the agenda of the left.

by Katrin on Tue Mar 17th, 2015 at 03:44:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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