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How many people in Europe know what is the Council of Europe?

It's worth wondering why they don't, since the Council of Europe predates the EEC and the EU by quite a bit.

Mostly, I'd say the reason is that the individual member countries have kept quiet about it. When Cameron scores nationalist-reactionary points by firing bazooka rounds at the Human Rights Act, he doesn't tell the British people about the Council of Europe and the fact that Britain was a prime mover in its foundation, hosting the treaty signing in London. And it's little better anywhere else.

This is just one reason why I don't expect individual European countries to somehow do better separately than collectively. Even though the current collective effort is visibly a failure.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Jun 2nd, 2015 at 10:47:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
When Cameron scores nationalist-reactionary points by firing bazooka rounds at the Human Rights Act, he doesn't tell the British people about the Council of Europe and the fact that Britain was a prime mover in its foundation, hosting the treaty signing in London.
No, he tells them it's a European Union imposition. And it works. Well done, European Union!

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 2nd, 2015 at 10:50:44 AM EST
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That's a neat way of shifting blame. No, Cameron is responsible.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Jun 2nd, 2015 at 03:13:40 PM EST
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Cameron is guilty. He does not strike me as particularly responsible.

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi
by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Tue Jun 2nd, 2015 at 03:30:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Blair wanted to get rid of the Human Rights Act, too...

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 2nd, 2015 at 03:30:48 PM EST
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Oh dear. My hero...
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Jun 2nd, 2015 at 04:21:37 PM EST
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Sure. Blame the EU for Cameeron playing the Little Englander.
by IM on Wed Jun 3rd, 2015 at 07:41:13 AM EST
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was almost always a powerless and largely irrelevant body, one where Comecon countries met their Nato equivalents back in the day.

On paper commendable, in reality though, not much to talk about.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Wed Jun 3rd, 2015 at 05:47:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]


The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill
by r------ on Wed Jun 3rd, 2015 at 05:49:38 AM EST
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Well, it was the only body who cared to run an investigation of the CIA rendition flights and black prisons 10 years ago. It is quite effective as "watchdogs" go, powerless and irrelevant goes with the territory.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 3rd, 2015 at 05:52:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
European body which can occasionally tell the truth.

No need to create new ones, of course, we can do this ourselves.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Wed Jun 3rd, 2015 at 06:00:46 AM EST
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Define "we" and define what "we" can do ourselves.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Jun 3rd, 2015 at 06:32:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
relatively intelligent, sporadically funded and highly powerless Europeans.

What "we" can do is issue ignored-in-advance reports on this that and the other thing, like Belarus' lack of democracy and transparency (as opposed, say, to any Eurogroup negotiation, say) or the report Migeru cites.

 

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Wed Jun 3rd, 2015 at 06:44:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You have a good line in scornful dismissal, but it doesn't have much content. I doubt if "we" in your definition could even bring out a report. Let alone have 47 countries (minus Belarus) sign up to a convention of human rights, and run the European Court of Human Rights to judge complaints under the convention.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Jun 3rd, 2015 at 06:56:54 AM EST
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A belarus supporter, what?

That fits.

by IM on Wed Jun 3rd, 2015 at 07:24:43 AM EST
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German lack of ability to read irony, or simply stupidity.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill
by r------ on Wed Jun 3rd, 2015 at 08:12:00 AM EST
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Easy on the ad-hominems, Redstar!

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 3rd, 2015 at 08:21:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
being a fan of reactionary dictatorships is not ad hominem.

I see.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Wed Jun 3rd, 2015 at 08:24:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Racist ad hominems are, how shall I put this?...

Racist.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Wed Jun 3rd, 2015 at 08:25:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Those are just nonsequiturs on IM's part.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 3rd, 2015 at 08:46:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Racial and national stereotypes really should be left at the door in rational discussion. I don't see why this is so hard to understand.

Perhaps it's because you're Irish?

:) No irony intended.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Wed Jun 3rd, 2015 at 08:53:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Winston Churchill, a key father of this Council of Europe which this sub-thread is putatively about, once famously responded, rhetorically, to his musing "where would we be without humour" with the response: "Germany".

Your accusation of racism is both silly and insulting.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Wed Jun 3rd, 2015 at 09:35:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I have German friends who are funny as hell. I've known intelligent Irish people. Your silly insulting racist accusations are.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II
by eurogreen on Wed Jun 3rd, 2015 at 09:46:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I recall that at least one participant was, after repeated warnings, expelled from the forum for persisting in national/racial stereotyping, generalising from his personal experience. I believe he never understood what the problem was.

Is it now OK, or not? Does it depend who does it?

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Wed Jun 3rd, 2015 at 09:53:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In what may be my last ever act of [ET Moderation Technology™] ...

I think we should all take a step back and reflect on the ridiculousness of the situation.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 3rd, 2015 at 10:13:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Calm, sure. But at a certain point, we need to know what the rules are.

The usual measure of whether something is offensive is whether the putative targets are offended by it (not whether someone else takes offense on their behalf). My guess, which no doubt would require confirmation, is that German participants in this forum are annoyed and offended by redstar's frequent humourless gybes about alleged German humourlessness (leaving aside other alleged national characteristics which he has, in the past, attributed to them).

It might seem trivial, but it's a principle that I feel strongly about. It might be seen as an extended piece of performance art, rather than as representing redstar's true beliefs, but that would actually be an aggravating factor in my view, as it is easy to interpret the intent as being to sow discord between people based on their nationality.

If I were a nationalist, I might suggest that redstar's problem be sorted out by his compatriots (and I would happily delegate the job to the Irish caucus, who might be more expeditive than the French).

But I think it's a collective problem.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Wed Jun 3rd, 2015 at 10:40:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The serious answer to "I seek a ruling" would have been "do we need to set up a tribunal?".

I tried humour. It didn't work. So be it.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 3rd, 2015 at 10:44:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Quite right. One of the reasons why I mostly don't see much sense in taking part here is exactly this nationalism and racist stereotyping.
by Katrin on Wed Jun 3rd, 2015 at 11:41:05 AM EST
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Churchill was a racist dick. What's your point, other than "I'm really angry at everyone"?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jun 3rd, 2015 at 10:10:40 AM EST
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Laughing.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill
by r------ on Wed Jun 3rd, 2015 at 10:13:07 AM EST
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Your sig line is an open display of Germanophobia, and though this has been pointed out before, you haven't seen fit to change it. So don't complain about "racist ad hominems".
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Jun 3rd, 2015 at 10:26:47 AM EST
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ad hominems?

Not I.

I don't see any racist ad hominems.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Wed Jun 3rd, 2015 at 10:28:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
redstar:
Your accusation of racism is both silly and insulting.

But whatever. Just don't complain.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Jun 3rd, 2015 at 10:38:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Churchill has his band of merry adulators just as Maggie Thatcher or Ronni Raygun have.

'Mustard gas' Churchill, the most lionised man of the 20thC.

A sometimes very witty man, but certainly no sage to subscribe to.

His ability to give uplifting oratory at a terrible time gained him much love and respect, but his core values were pompous and predatory, Empah incarnate.

Your sig, Redstar is trolling and you know it, I commend the Germans here for ignoring your provocation and answering on the merit of your often interesting arguments.

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sun Jun 7th, 2015 at 07:16:30 AM EST
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It's also getting boring. How about varying it and using other Churchill quotes, Such as "I hate Indians. They are a beastly people with a beastly religion."
by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Mon Jun 8th, 2015 at 12:39:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The only Churchill quote I like is: "We are all worms, but some of us are glow-worms." :)

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Mon Jun 8th, 2015 at 02:53:54 AM EST
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Fits in with your other right-wing tendencies.

And irony is really not your strong suit.

by IM on Sun Jun 7th, 2015 at 07:40:54 AM EST
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In the real world the European Courts on Human Rights is a big success story.

Even if the rest of the Council is an fossil now.

by IM on Wed Jun 3rd, 2015 at 07:37:58 AM EST
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It's worth wondering why they don't, since the Council of Europe predates the EEC and the EU by quite a bit.

No wonder. The Council has withered away outsidde the Court and has been seen in the east as an mntechamber to the EU-membership.

It alsoo tends to overlap with the functions of the OSCE

by IM on Wed Jun 3rd, 2015 at 07:44:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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