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J was always the enthusiast for the euro. He faded way before the great realisations here of what a disaster it had become

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jun 1st, 2015 at 12:21:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Euro with political and fiscal integration (as in major fiscal transfers, not unified targets with national budgets) makes sense.
It's the without that is a disaster.

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi
by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Mon Jun 1st, 2015 at 12:29:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, I was always the enthusiast for the Euro and for European Construction, but reality caught up with me.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 1st, 2015 at 12:32:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Turns out Europe really was doomed.
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Jun 2nd, 2015 at 06:54:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But for pretty much the opposite reasons to those generally claimed.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jun 2nd, 2015 at 06:58:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well with 2 world wars in our fresh history we were double-doomed before the EU came along.

I'm beginning to think that while it remains a good, nice idea the humans of requisite competence and good faith have not emerged with shoulders broad enough to take responsibility for maintaining what they started.

The present clusterfuck is still better than interstate warfare a la Libya but I am far from convinced by the evidence that leaders were at the necessary intellectual level to fairly manage the large and unwieldy beast as it has proven to be.

Unwinding said beast will not be a walk in the park, should it come to that, but then possibly this mess the currency is in has revealed how shallow the commitment to a united Europe really is, and once adjusted that could re-energise the project in toto.

I haven't given up entirely on the EU, but confess to being bitterly disappointed that after the years of Barroso the best we can throw up to take his place is Juncker. FFS, that's like putting Strauss-Kahn in charge of a convent.

I cringe at how naively I trusted back in the late 90's that we were really ready to do this all together.

The red flags for me should have been how profligately Berlu and Co were spending EU money on bridges to nowhere, cementing N Italy over (funnelling billions to the mob in the process) how the farmers were cheating on the CAP, (planting sunflowers for the funds and then letting them shrivel and rot in the fields unwatered), roundabouts going in every 50m etc etc.

All these shenanigans unmonitored by EU watchdogs.

The all-too-rapid expansion to the East and later the way the Ukraine card was played exposed what for me is the most tawdry side of the project. Tolerating dodgy leaders and corrupt states that could even teach Italy a thing or two in that department was apparently a small price to pay in order to flog washing machines and cars on too-easy credit to folks who didn't have them yet.

Lastly the extremely retrogressive stances regarding allowing OGM food for animals that people eat, and worst of all the new brown coal mining and cessation of support for renewables make it impossibly hard to believe they are up to anything good at all.

Then there's the idiotic idea that to solve the influx of refugees all we need is to send an expensive navy to go shoot holes in poor folks' fishing boats, (after throwing the Libyans to the wolves by deposing Ghaddafi), that takes the proverbial cake...

None of this will change unless America radically rethinks macro-economics, (not to mention hegemony and Empire), this much I have gratefully learned here at ET these last 11 years.

Europe is dead, long live the European Union!

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Tue Jun 2nd, 2015 at 10:11:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Same here, but I went a step further: I now believe that any excessive integration would be a bad idea. For several reasons, but I leave just 2.

With integration there is a single point that can be taken up by power interests. With 30 nation states, the same power-hungry interests have to be successfully 30 times.

Diversity is compromised by excess integration. Diversity sometimes brings along bad things (think 20th-century fascism in Southern Europe) but it also can bring about good things (think European social model in the North). We need to try different things, to find the best ways...

Diversity is better than uniformity.

by cagatacos on Tue Jun 2nd, 2015 at 08:48:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And, by the way: would anyone consider removing that flag on the banner of the site? It is becoming an offensive symbol to the values of Equality, Fraternity and Liberty. Values that I still think (wishful thinking?) are a bit European.
by cagatacos on Tue Jun 2nd, 2015 at 08:51:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's still the flag of the Council of Europe. Do you object to that?

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 2nd, 2015 at 09:09:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It is the symbol of the EU for all effects. With the obvious differences (I am not putting it on equal footing, just exemplifying) it is a bit like saying that the swastika is a symbol of Hinduism (which it is and in that case deserving of complete and utmost respect), but most people associate it with something else (unfortunately).

That symbol on top is associated with things that do not represent values that are worth fighting for...

How many people in Europe know what is the Council of Europe? That symbol, for most people, represents something else...

by cagatacos on Tue Jun 2nd, 2015 at 09:29:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's still the main topic here. Why change it?
by generic on Tue Jun 2nd, 2015 at 09:41:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, we can start a campaign against the European Union's usurpation of the symbol...

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 2nd, 2015 at 09:44:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Symbols do have value. Sorry, do have meaning.

The symbol above, via whatever method, has become a particularly nasty one. Fair or unfair, such is the case. It is starting to mean the antagonizing of democracy. I find it slightly nauseous to see it here.

by cagatacos on Tue Jun 2nd, 2015 at 11:35:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
" I find it slightly nauseous to see it here."

Nowbody forces yot to participate here.

But if you want to replace it with a mashup of the american and chinese flag...

by IM on Wed Jun 3rd, 2015 at 07:46:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
cagatacos:
How many people in Europe know what is the Council of Europe?

It's worth wondering why they don't, since the Council of Europe predates the EEC and the EU by quite a bit.

Mostly, I'd say the reason is that the individual member countries have kept quiet about it. When Cameron scores nationalist-reactionary points by firing bazooka rounds at the Human Rights Act, he doesn't tell the British people about the Council of Europe and the fact that Britain was a prime mover in its foundation, hosting the treaty signing in London. And it's little better anywhere else.

This is just one reason why I don't expect individual European countries to somehow do better separately than collectively. Even though the current collective effort is visibly a failure.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Jun 2nd, 2015 at 10:47:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
When Cameron scores nationalist-reactionary points by firing bazooka rounds at the Human Rights Act, he doesn't tell the British people about the Council of Europe and the fact that Britain was a prime mover in its foundation, hosting the treaty signing in London.
No, he tells them it's a European Union imposition. And it works. Well done, European Union!

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 2nd, 2015 at 10:50:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's a neat way of shifting blame. No, Cameron is responsible.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Jun 2nd, 2015 at 03:13:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Cameron is guilty. He does not strike me as particularly responsible.

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi
by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Tue Jun 2nd, 2015 at 03:30:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Blair wanted to get rid of the Human Rights Act, too...

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 2nd, 2015 at 03:30:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh dear. My hero...
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Jun 2nd, 2015 at 04:21:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sure. Blame the EU for Cameeron playing the Little Englander.
by IM on Wed Jun 3rd, 2015 at 07:41:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
was almost always a powerless and largely irrelevant body, one where Comecon countries met their Nato equivalents back in the day.

On paper commendable, in reality though, not much to talk about.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Wed Jun 3rd, 2015 at 05:47:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]


The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill
by r------ on Wed Jun 3rd, 2015 at 05:49:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, it was the only body who cared to run an investigation of the CIA rendition flights and black prisons 10 years ago. It is quite effective as "watchdogs" go, powerless and irrelevant goes with the territory.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 3rd, 2015 at 05:52:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
European body which can occasionally tell the truth.

No need to create new ones, of course, we can do this ourselves.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Wed Jun 3rd, 2015 at 06:00:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Define "we" and define what "we" can do ourselves.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Jun 3rd, 2015 at 06:32:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
relatively intelligent, sporadically funded and highly powerless Europeans.

What "we" can do is issue ignored-in-advance reports on this that and the other thing, like Belarus' lack of democracy and transparency (as opposed, say, to any Eurogroup negotiation, say) or the report Migeru cites.

 

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Wed Jun 3rd, 2015 at 06:44:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You have a good line in scornful dismissal, but it doesn't have much content. I doubt if "we" in your definition could even bring out a report. Let alone have 47 countries (minus Belarus) sign up to a convention of human rights, and run the European Court of Human Rights to judge complaints under the convention.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Jun 3rd, 2015 at 06:56:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A belarus supporter, what?

That fits.

by IM on Wed Jun 3rd, 2015 at 07:24:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
German lack of ability to read irony, or simply stupidity.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill
by r------ on Wed Jun 3rd, 2015 at 08:12:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Easy on the ad-hominems, Redstar!

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 3rd, 2015 at 08:21:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
being a fan of reactionary dictatorships is not ad hominem.

I see.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Wed Jun 3rd, 2015 at 08:24:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Racist ad hominems are, how shall I put this?...

Racist.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Wed Jun 3rd, 2015 at 08:25:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Those are just nonsequiturs on IM's part.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 3rd, 2015 at 08:46:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Racial and national stereotypes really should be left at the door in rational discussion. I don't see why this is so hard to understand.

Perhaps it's because you're Irish?

:) No irony intended.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Wed Jun 3rd, 2015 at 08:53:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Winston Churchill, a key father of this Council of Europe which this sub-thread is putatively about, once famously responded, rhetorically, to his musing "where would we be without humour" with the response: "Germany".

Your accusation of racism is both silly and insulting.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Wed Jun 3rd, 2015 at 09:35:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I have German friends who are funny as hell. I've known intelligent Irish people. Your silly insulting racist accusations are.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II
by eurogreen on Wed Jun 3rd, 2015 at 09:46:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I recall that at least one participant was, after repeated warnings, expelled from the forum for persisting in national/racial stereotyping, generalising from his personal experience. I believe he never understood what the problem was.

Is it now OK, or not? Does it depend who does it?

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Wed Jun 3rd, 2015 at 09:53:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In what may be my last ever act of [ET Moderation Technology™] ...

I think we should all take a step back and reflect on the ridiculousness of the situation.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 3rd, 2015 at 10:13:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Calm, sure. But at a certain point, we need to know what the rules are.

The usual measure of whether something is offensive is whether the putative targets are offended by it (not whether someone else takes offense on their behalf). My guess, which no doubt would require confirmation, is that German participants in this forum are annoyed and offended by redstar's frequent humourless gybes about alleged German humourlessness (leaving aside other alleged national characteristics which he has, in the past, attributed to them).

It might seem trivial, but it's a principle that I feel strongly about. It might be seen as an extended piece of performance art, rather than as representing redstar's true beliefs, but that would actually be an aggravating factor in my view, as it is easy to interpret the intent as being to sow discord between people based on their nationality.

If I were a nationalist, I might suggest that redstar's problem be sorted out by his compatriots (and I would happily delegate the job to the Irish caucus, who might be more expeditive than the French).

But I think it's a collective problem.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Wed Jun 3rd, 2015 at 10:40:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The serious answer to "I seek a ruling" would have been "do we need to set up a tribunal?".

I tried humour. It didn't work. So be it.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 3rd, 2015 at 10:44:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Quite right. One of the reasons why I mostly don't see much sense in taking part here is exactly this nationalism and racist stereotyping.
by Katrin on Wed Jun 3rd, 2015 at 11:41:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Churchill was a racist dick. What's your point, other than "I'm really angry at everyone"?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jun 3rd, 2015 at 10:10:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Laughing.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill
by r------ on Wed Jun 3rd, 2015 at 10:13:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Your sig line is an open display of Germanophobia, and though this has been pointed out before, you haven't seen fit to change it. So don't complain about "racist ad hominems".
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Jun 3rd, 2015 at 10:26:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
ad hominems?

Not I.

I don't see any racist ad hominems.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Wed Jun 3rd, 2015 at 10:28:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
redstar:
Your accusation of racism is both silly and insulting.

But whatever. Just don't complain.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Jun 3rd, 2015 at 10:38:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Churchill has his band of merry adulators just as Maggie Thatcher or Ronni Raygun have.

'Mustard gas' Churchill, the most lionised man of the 20thC.

A sometimes very witty man, but certainly no sage to subscribe to.

His ability to give uplifting oratory at a terrible time gained him much love and respect, but his core values were pompous and predatory, Empah incarnate.

Your sig, Redstar is trolling and you know it, I commend the Germans here for ignoring your provocation and answering on the merit of your often interesting arguments.

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sun Jun 7th, 2015 at 07:16:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's also getting boring. How about varying it and using other Churchill quotes, Such as "I hate Indians. They are a beastly people with a beastly religion."
by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Mon Jun 8th, 2015 at 12:39:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The only Churchill quote I like is: "We are all worms, but some of us are glow-worms." :)

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Mon Jun 8th, 2015 at 02:53:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Fits in with your other right-wing tendencies.

And irony is really not your strong suit.

by IM on Sun Jun 7th, 2015 at 07:40:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In the real world the European Courts on Human Rights is a big success story.

Even if the rest of the Council is an fossil now.

by IM on Wed Jun 3rd, 2015 at 07:37:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's worth wondering why they don't, since the Council of Europe predates the EEC and the EU by quite a bit.

No wonder. The Council has withered away outsidde the Court and has been seen in the east as an mntechamber to the EU-membership.

It alsoo tends to overlap with the functions of the OSCE

by IM on Wed Jun 3rd, 2015 at 07:44:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
truly getting mad.

hat is the problem if people go around and screech that everything is fascist: They totally loose their bearings.

by IM on Wed Jun 3rd, 2015 at 07:35:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Maybe we could cobble a logo together out of this (with a few additions).

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Jun 2nd, 2015 at 10:37:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A physical map of Europe might be better.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 2nd, 2015 at 10:41:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I wasn't serious...
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Jun 2nd, 2015 at 10:48:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Big challenges cannot be addressed at a tiny level.

Admittedly, the EU has performed appallingly of late (as it has been captured by austerianism), but I don't see that this is a battle that was being lost in every country. Greece seems to be the only one to really push back.

On the other hand, if you want to address a far bigger issue (yes, I know 60% youth unemployment is shocking and actually does wake me up at night -still, I stand by far bigger) such as sustainability and averting catastrophic climate change, then you need very strong integration. And, until 2008, the EU was indeed a strong hope for the world and the only superpower that was making any sort of noise in the right direction.

Remove that and you have the guarantee that the fate of the world will be decided between Washington and Beijing - nice beacons of hope.

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Tue Jun 2nd, 2015 at 09:49:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
On that note...
The plan looks harmless at a glance. Laws in Europe should be "better", said Frans Timmermans, first Vice-President of the European Commission. Therefore "more transparency and control" are needed in the future when the EU adopts new laws, vows the Commissioner. The European Parliament and the Council of EU governments should also commit contractually to subdue all legislative changes to a "rigorous" examination before voting on them, demands Timmermans, who presented a contract draft.

...

Gradually, Europe gets deeper and deeper into the "post-democracy" state against which the British political scientist Colin Crouch warned us ten years ago. As legislation has moved to a transnational sphere that escapes public control, democracy loses its substance and citizens turn away. "People who actually only reject the current EU policy are forced to turn against the EU system as a whole," says European expert and political consultant Ulrike Guérot - a circumstance that increasingly takes them to vote for parties relapsing into nationalism, like France's Front National.

If the EU parliament or at least its pro-European majority take themselves seriously, they should reject Timmermans' plan altogether and call for the exact opposite, a reform facilitating European citizens' initiatives and finally allowing referendums. The EU needs more democracy, not less. Otherwise its days are numbered.



A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 2nd, 2015 at 10:12:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I fully agree that the EU looks like post-democracy.

But so do both the country I currently live in (the UK - which is not bound by Maastricht) and the one in which I was born (France, who at some point gave all levels of power except the EP to an allegedly leftist party, only to get right-wing economics if, admittedly and that was welcome, left-wing social policies).

Post-democracy seems to be a feature of our times, one which we must fight, but not, I think, one limited to the EU. International trade agreements apparently among the major culprits.

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Tue Jun 2nd, 2015 at 10:48:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Not to mention our 800-pound adolescent across the pond, where our supposedly socialist president is busy pushing a trans-pacific trade deal that is being kept secret even from the legislators who are expected to approve it, not to mention the population who will have to live with it.

Now where are we going and what's with the handbasket?
by budr on Thu Jun 4th, 2015 at 01:40:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
sounds undecided:

http://www.socialistsanddemocrats.eu/newsroom/better-regulation-should-not-be-excuse-deregulation

"There needs to be more clarity on the Commission's idea to have both a Regulatory Scrutiny Board and independent panel. These impact assessments should be comprehensive and not just look at the costs imposed on businesses, but also the cost to health services, consumers, workers' rights and the environment of not regulating."  

by IM on Wed Jun 3rd, 2015 at 07:32:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]


A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 3rd, 2015 at 08:23:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Integration, big issue governing cuts both ways... Look at what market regulators, environment protection agencies protect now...

I was a rather indifferent (or even passively skeptical) towards the EU integration. Appreciated it as a beneficiary.

Having less hassle with currency, travel, employment was nice... but what were the true motivations for the institutions? Was there a real chance for a hoped progressive performance? What about the EU now being exactly where it is supposed to be?

by das monde on Tue Jun 2nd, 2015 at 10:51:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
real-existing EU, and not the one we idealise and which a certain generation of french elites dreamed up.

And, that real-existing EU has not been a force for good, for longer than since 2008.

And the fate of the world is indeed currently being decided in Washington and Beijing, and that might be a good thing, as I'm not sure having François Hollande and Angela Merkel have much of a say is a good idea.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Wed Jun 3rd, 2015 at 05:52:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It started going downhill right after Maastricht, with the ill-fated (and uninspiring) Santer Commission. The Prodi Commission was a respite of sorts, but 10 years of Barroso just about killed it. And Barroso was reappointed in 2009, just so there wouldn't be a Commission counterweight to German "leadership" on crisis management.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 3rd, 2015 at 06:08:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
redstar:
the fate of the world is indeed currently being decided in Washington and Beijing, and that might be a good thing

Irrespective of how bad the EU is, the world under Washington and Beijing is increasingly free-trade authoritarian liberal, and that might not be a good thing at all.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Jun 3rd, 2015 at 06:35:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
liberal over german authoritarian conservatism à la wolfgang shauble any day of the week.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill
by r------ on Wed Jun 3rd, 2015 at 06:37:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
How much difference is there? What the free-trade agreements currently imposed by the Washington-sponsored corporate world will lead us to is an authoritarian pro-business set-up. In fact the EU, weakened by individual member-state contention and infiltrated by lobbies, is falling apart to be simply replaced by that set-up.  
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Jun 3rd, 2015 at 06:46:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
by more than member-state contention and the inevitable lobbies which set up wherever power centres are created.

EU weakness is at its core, starting with the Euro construction, and given that construction, continuing on through the German conservatism which is dominating the aftermath.

And that conservatism is far less dynamic, allows for far less social mobility, than the alternatives.

It is, in a word, conservative.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Wed Jun 3rd, 2015 at 06:52:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Agreed, it's not just member-state contention and lobbies, and the euro is a millstone round the EU's neck. But I'm not expecting much in the way of social mobility (unless that means a handful of lucky duckies who make it to the 1%) from the broader global free-trade agreements that are being undemocratically "negotiated".
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Jun 3rd, 2015 at 07:02:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Schäuble, the TTIP enemy. Now I have seen anything.
by IM on Wed Jun 3rd, 2015 at 07:25:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
We need to try different things, to find the best ways...

Diversity is better than uniformity.


Diversity is only better if there is a mechanism by which the superior outcomes can be transmitted to the parts of the grand experiment which experience inferior outcomes.

In the absence of an imperial arbitrator with a vested interest in promoting the good outcomes, there are at least as many ways for the bad outcomes to spread as there are for the good ones.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Jun 2nd, 2015 at 01:43:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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