Welcome to European Tribune. It's gone a bit quiet around here these days, but it's still going.
Display:
I sometimes wonder if Evans-Pritchard reflects on how his thoughts on the EU might apply to the Tories.
by rz on Sat Jun 20th, 2015 at 02:51:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.
by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Sat Jun 20th, 2015 at 02:54:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That said: I like his stuff on Europe. At some point I stopped judging people because they write for the Telegraph. It is the actual content which matters.
by rz on Sat Jun 20th, 2015 at 02:56:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
E-P has been one of the heroes here for quite a long time. Yet dog knows we don't generally like the Telegraph.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Jun 20th, 2015 at 03:27:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yet dog knows we don't generally like the Telegraph

Is that the dog that didn't bark? :-)

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Sat Jun 20th, 2015 at 04:38:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
we are all atheists around here right? so please lets not use the g-word here.
by rz on Sat Jun 20th, 2015 at 04:46:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
is that a new rule?

god help us.

by IM on Sat Jun 20th, 2015 at 06:05:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No we're not all god-damned atheists. I still believe in the Hand of Maradona, or whatever the Supreme Schiedsrichter deciders.

What i don't believe, can't wrap my head around, is the anti-civilization politics of the EU leaders. Of course, Yurpeen politics is still a notch better than the weaponized mass psychosis which is the US.

Crash Davis, catcher for the minor league Durham Bulls, says it best...



"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Ana´s Nin

by Crazy Horse on Sat Jun 20th, 2015 at 06:11:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The EU stooges leaders are all working for the enemy, ie the international financiers and opinion-makers who all met at the Bilderberg meeting in Austria, with the usual anti-democratic press blackout atmosphere so special to this crowd.

They shuffle leaders around like chess pieces at their convenience and tell us TINA.

Europa, a myth to begin with, a brave effort to immunise a chronically belligerent, rapacious continent from a further 2000 years of eternal bloodletting.

Brazil managed 500 years with 10 geographical neighbours and one war (with Paraguay), right?

Germany is germanising Europe instead of vice-versa.

National egoism has not diminished, it is increasing, though things are far better than they were in 1951 when the concept of Europe united was born.

My fear is, similarly to nuclear power, the idea might look good on paper but requires clarity of mind not reliable in our troubled species.

Hubris on the other hand is in generous supply...

The immigration issue makes Greece look like a sideshow in some ways.

After centuries of raping and pillaging Africa and the Middle East, chickens are coming to roost here. This as much as the heartless attitude to Greece is starting to define the new Europe under present mismanagement.

Further speeding the imminent downfall of the economic system as we know it today.

Probably the major glue holding this Zeppelin together is fear that what followed might be worse. If Greece proves otherwise then that boogeyman loses its power.

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sat Jun 20th, 2015 at 09:08:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
... often given substance by people modifying their behavior to conform to some affinity or loyalty to the the thing that the myth says that the nation is ...

... then how much more Europa, which in geographic terms is just a part of West Asia characterized by a lot of peninsulas, and is historical terms are those peoples with some strong cultural legacies from classical Mediterranean civilization who don't happen to be incorporated into Dar Islam (and in some cases, that was because they were incorporated into Dar Islam but then pulled out again).


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sat Jun 20th, 2015 at 11:59:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There are several forces that will ensure Greece does not prove otherwise.
by rifek on Sat Jun 27th, 2015 at 05:31:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
...are a notch better than American?

I am not so sure anymore. Living here is better than living there, to be sure, though our elites are doing their best to mke that less and less true.

But our politics superior to American? I can't say that with a straight face anymore.

Lack of alternance? Check. Social democrat/christian democrat divide is similar to Democrat/Republican "divide" 20 years ago (characterised by a humourous bumpersticker from back then "Gore or Dubya? I think I'm gonna Ralph," and which still largely holds.

Politicos capture by the elite and increasingly out of touch with real life? Check. I keep remembering when Bush the Earlier was mocked when, on a campaign stop at a supermarket, he was visibly impressed by the barcode scanning equipment ubiquitous to those of us who don't have servants do our shopping.  I remember this often, like when the PS Culture Ministry official makes excuses about a 50K€ bill for taxis on top of the official having also a driver, or back when I worked in travel and saw that by far the highest average hotel bill in Europe, ranked by major cities, was not major trade and finance centers like London or Paris or Frankfort. No, the highest average hotel night stay, in €, is Brussels.

Moronic politics around things like climate denial? Check. Refer also to elite capture, as a man will say anything if his paycheck depends on it (see Tories as well as many politicians in various Eastern members of the EU).

Nope, the US has its faults, but at least it can be proud of still moving forward, as with Obamacare. Everywhere we look, in the EU, forces of regression have the upper hand and are pressing their advantage...

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Sun Jun 21st, 2015 at 03:10:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I am highly confident that living anywhere in America is better than living in half of Europe, if not more.

But it's also true that living in half of Europe is better than living in all but a very small slice of America (i.e. Massachusetts, Connecticut and New York).

In the USA, it is very noticeable when our liberals point to the greatness of Germany or the Scandanavian countries as models, but of course, the rest of the struggling countries must not be mentioned.

by Upstate NY on Sun Jun 21st, 2015 at 10:44:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I find US liberals' love of Germany insane given what Germany has done and is doing to Europe.  Gimme Obama over Merkel any damned day.  That love seems to be based largely on some vague notion of Germany having strong unions and liberals' strange affinity for lousy German cars.

Personally, I'd take my little liberal oasis town here in Northfloridistan over anywhere in Connecticut.  And, unless it's Boston or NYC, you can have Mass and New York.  Although I'd obviously prefer their politics at the state level.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Mon Jun 22nd, 2015 at 07:55:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I would take living on a Greek Island over living anywhere as well, but I was trying to expand boundaries into functional units. Can't fit 11 million Greeks onto an Island. As for Florida, we boycott it.
by Upstate NY on Mon Jun 22nd, 2015 at 10:32:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"I find US liberals' love of Germany insane given what Germany has done and is doing to Europe"

US conservaties löove Germany too. Balanced budgets, you know.

But I think there is nothing to see here: turning a foregn country into a morality tale goes back to Tacitus. At least.

by IM on Mon Jun 22nd, 2015 at 11:48:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
After nearly 14 years away, i'm certainly not one to know what "US liberals" think, or whether there's any "love of Germany." I find most americans have little clue about Yurp.

But they do look to Germany (and Scandinavia) for underlying policies on energy and the environment. Which seems fair to me. Jerry Brown's going a long way to make California a sunny version of Germany, though it could use some of Germany's rainclouds.

Of course, US liberals love of Germany's energy policies was before the GroKo (Grosse Koalition) took a hatchet to renewables. (and Yurp demanded renewables enter the crooked free market for electricity.)

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Ana´s Nin

by Crazy Horse on Mon Jun 22nd, 2015 at 01:10:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I know this area, Tallahassee to Marianna. It doesn't take much to feel like a pillar of enlightenment there.
by mminch on Tue Jun 23rd, 2015 at 08:20:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Whaddayousayin' 'bout my friend Drew!

Index of Frank's Diaries
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Tue Jun 23rd, 2015 at 08:26:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Not to distract from your great diary or disparage your friend, but there are certain pockets of conservative er.. thinking, in which even Obama's policies seem enlightened. Conservatism there is not a way of thinking or reasoning, it is a Belief.
by mminch on Tue Jun 23rd, 2015 at 09:03:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I appreciate that.  Your original comment could have been misread to conclude that Drew is only to be considered enlightened relative to his surroundings!

Index of Frank's Diaries
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Tue Jun 23rd, 2015 at 12:11:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Uh, I'm guessing you're confusing Marianna with Tallahassee, which are an hour apart and politically night and night.  Marianna is not Tallahassee, bud.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sun Jul 5th, 2015 at 01:03:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
UK liberals might want to come to Europe to tell us why our system is worth saving. We have a lot of conservative influence to "reform" in the direction of dismantling that which liberals think is better about Europe.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 22nd, 2015 at 08:31:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
US Liberals?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Jun 22nd, 2015 at 09:03:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sorry, brainfart.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 22nd, 2015 at 09:07:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"We have a lot of conservative influence to "reform" in the direction of dismantling that which liberals think is better about Europe."

We do, and I lament that - yet not all has been destroyed yet. I am not ready to give up on what is left.
Should we look at the environmental footprints across the Atlantic? I know it is far too big in Europe, but, really?
I don't see that European black males are expected to live 20 years less than their white counterparts.
I don't see that -however I abhor them- European right-wing parties have got to the point where in order to have a role in them you need to deny climate change, deny that guns are a hazard, nor even swear that tax cuts for the rich increase total taxes collected (I am not saying that no one is making that claim - but not all are).

And Syriza may yet bring some much-needed to change to what we believe possible.

So despite my despair, I don't think we are on a par just yet.


Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Mon Jun 22nd, 2015 at 10:02:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I absolutely agree.  Most posters here can't grasp the lunacy that is US politics.  When the same-sex marriage decision came down yesterday, conservatives immediately started challenging the Supreme Court's authority to rule on the issue, even though that was settled over 200 years ago.  As I've posted elsewhere on ET, the far right positions Hungary is taking now have been the mainstream policies in the US for decades.
by rifek on Sat Jun 27th, 2015 at 06:27:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I have been directly exposed to the lunacy of US right-wingers (and the inadequacy of the 'other side') for years, 'debating' the idiots first in science and atheism forums and then in political ones at the time of the Iraq War. You'll note that throughout in the Hungary diary, I am contrasting with Western Europeans (aiming for the majority of my readership). The U.S. immigration quotas, the insane defences at the Mexican border and the (up to fatal) police violence against 'illegal' immigrants, the election rhetoric from one mainstream party (and the silence to support from local representatives of the other), the hypocrisy regarding the role of 'illegals' in especially the agricultural industry: Europe has parallels to each of that, but not (yet) on that level and not (yet) that across-the-board. But that's the direction the Fortress Europe mentality is taking us towards.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 05:55:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The USA is going through the classic stages of post imperial decline - overweening arrogance, living in their own self-regarding bubble, ignorance of everything outside that bubble, and a tendency to over-react at the slightest provocation with a military "solution". What's Europe's excuse? Our empires died a long time ago.

Index of Frank's Diaries
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 10:15:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Not that long ago. The British didn't close their last death camps (that we know about) until sometime in the 1960s. Lots of people in their 50s in France and Britain today grew up in the colonies.

And of course Germany got its empire back in 1993, and it's clearly gone to their head.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 10:58:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So what was our excuse when we were still on the rise?  Simple immaturity and callowness?
by rifek on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 01:09:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Conformity to the historical human baseline.

Quite a lot of major advances in the human condition - things like religious tolerance, the modern notion of sovereignty, the moral opprobrium attached to genocide, and others too numerous to list - have happened because there was a sufficiently big war that the big men looked at each other and went "okay, the stakes were a bit too high on that last roll of the dice. It's all fun and games when it's just the peasants getting murdered, but this is getting out of hand. Let's all agree to tone it down a bit from here on."

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 01:20:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You had FDR and even Eisenhauer was better than current Republicans. The sad fact is that culturally and politically, the USA has been in decline since the 1960s.  I blame Vietnam, racism, followed by Iraq, citizens United and the worship of money above all else, but we all have our own demonology...

Index of Frank's Diaries
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 01:20:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Reagan was a progressive in comparison to this crop.

Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will learn in no other. -- Dr Johnson
by melvin (melvingladys at or near yahoo.com) on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 03:34:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes but he turned the tide. Carter was still a human being for all his faults.  From Reagan onwards with was big business which was in charge - regardless of whether it was Republicans or Democrats in power - it was just different sectors of big business who were in control (Big Oil vs. Wall street etc.)

Index of Frank's Diaries
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 06:20:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
... the Big Oil companies switching to the Republicans when the West Texas oil quotas went away and their quarter by quarter stake in full employment went away has far more to do with it than those who put politics down to which side "ran the best campaign" seem to ever contemplate.

I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Wed Jul 1st, 2015 at 08:53:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What i don't believe, can't wrap my head around, is the anti-civilization politics of the EU leaders. Of course, Yurpeen politics is still a notch better than the weaponized mass psychosis which is the US.
This might be that time of the civilization cycle, brief but intense period of social-political catabolism (i.e., destructive "metabolism"), speedy simplification of peak civilization, an Armageddon show with Final Judgement "natural" selection for sustainable inheritance of the land. The interesting times, as the Chinese say.

In other words, the EU/US governments are not really able (or at the very least, willing) to provide the latest civilized living standards to everyone, even within their own territory. The whole EU project (as we know it) might tangibly exist for the very reason of perceived necessity for inevitable catabolic scale down (as happening about now). A Greek default/Grexit is probably a long anticipated event - with all its "contagious" effects to the whole Europe.

The core reason for Greece not to default is to remain a member of the civilized world, with all its material, electronic and trade benefits. Ironically, there might be not much civilized benefits awaiting Greece (and the whole Europe, especially the periphery) anyway. On the other hand, a default makes Greece a pariah, a hated companion of Russia, Iran (whether Syriza will cozy up to Putin or not). A classic scenario perhaps: the uber-civilized have to "stand up" to indebted or resource rich dummies...

by das monde on Sun Jun 21st, 2015 at 07:52:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It would seem that if Greece was looking for a patron who would be in a position to provide them with that an improved living standard than the EU is prepared to allow them to have, then the only feasible patron for that would be China.

I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sun Jun 21st, 2015 at 08:59:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Indebtness to IMF and other Western masters led most (geographically or in social stratification) of Africa, Latin America, South Eastern Asia to the massive poverty that they have now. Greece can have similar expectations in a few years.

There is a non-neglible possibility that the Russian standard is the best that Greece can have in the middle term. But how can you talk that politically?

by das monde on Sun Jun 21st, 2015 at 09:48:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
if Greece turns into an outpost of the Sino-corporate Empire Merkel will go down politically as well as historically.
She may well be too situationally unaware, too blackmailed or bought-off to be able to do otherwise though.

And she is the most powerful European leader by a factor of 5...!

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Wed Jun 24th, 2015 at 01:39:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]


A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 24th, 2015 at 05:11:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I would be a lapsed Unitarian if it was possible to lapse from Unitarianism ... which is perhaps best expressed by saying that at one time I was an agnostic, but now I am not so sure.

I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sat Jun 20th, 2015 at 11:52:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Recovering catholic here. 30 years sober but in recovery we take it one day at a time.

Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will learn in no other. -- Dr Johnson
by melvin (melvingladys at or near yahoo.com) on Sun Jun 21st, 2015 at 01:46:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Display:

Occasional Series