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Are you going to answer my other questions too? What would the left's reaction be, if we behaved with exactly the wisdom you want us to have? What do you want us to do, apart from stopping to distribute teddy bears?
Also, even if it is received opinion that fences never work, fences will be built regardless and sometimes they do work (enough). So it's useless to harp on about them. Schengen is toast!
a strawman if ever there was one.
So it's useless to harp on about them.
And still you harp and harp and harp....
The left has to find a workable alternative that doesn't scream 'Open borders for everyone' before the usual dark nativist dynamics set in.
Nobody is screaming that. Nobody is demanding open borders. What I demand is respect for the right to asylum. Must I really remind you that it is a human right? That there is no doubt that the Syrians who make it to us come from one of the most horrible war zones of the world? They are entitled to refuge. Are you demanding the abolishment of this human right? Alterations to the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights? The Geneva Conventions? Do explain, please. Are these the demands that you want the left to make?
epochepoque:
Also, even if it is received opinion that fences never work, fences will be built regardless and sometimes they do work (enough)
Yes, the Iron Curtain was fairly efficient. Do you propose to re-erect it? Is making this proposal what you expect from the left? You think the left should demand all that?
Anyway, we're running in circles here (as usual in a leftwing debate club). Facts on the ground have overtaken the discussion and my pessimistic predictions are coming true. Germany has reintroduced border controls to Austria.
We can't do it after all - Süddeutsche
On Sunday the government made a spectacular u-turn and thereby admitted: "We can't do it after all." For the chancellor it is a political miscalculation that she had yet to commit during her ten years in office. For the nation it is the beginning of an intense political fight. And for Europe the message is: Germany has understood that it can't revolutionize the EU's asylum policy on its own. ... The collapse of the registration of refugees in Munich, the refusal of more solidarity even from other German states: the darwinism of impositions has reached Germany. The double morals that were diagnosed in the rest of Europe long ago have seized the country that created a mirage of a welcoming culture in the many refugee camps from Syria to Pakistan. No, Germany could not be open for everybody because the sheer number of refugees wouldn't have placed an excessive financial but a social burden on the country. ... [The border] controls therefore have a symbolic character. They are the German version of a message that France, the UK or Hungary are transmitting in some brutal form or another: we can't and don't want to shelter everyone. That is the hard lesson of the refugee crisis: heart and reason can't be brought in line.
... The collapse of the registration of refugees in Munich, the refusal of more solidarity even from other German states: the darwinism of impositions has reached Germany. The double morals that were diagnosed in the rest of Europe long ago have seized the country that created a mirage of a welcoming culture in the many refugee camps from Syria to Pakistan. No, Germany could not be open for everybody because the sheer number of refugees wouldn't have placed an excessive financial but a social burden on the country.
... [The border] controls therefore have a symbolic character. They are the German version of a message that France, the UK or Hungary are transmitting in some brutal form or another: we can't and don't want to shelter everyone. That is the hard lesson of the refugee crisis: heart and reason can't be brought in line.
If you say that people from war zones are to be given refuge no limits -and we know there are millions of them- and since our 'European partners' don't have much appetite to share the responsibility then that is effectively an open border policy.
Well, our European partners are just getting another overdose of partnership: the suspense of Schengen is nothing but pressure on them. It's not true that we "can't do it". We just want the solidarity of our dear Mediterranean partners, who surely can't have any reason to lean back and just watch the refugees go to Germany, right?
I am afraid, you have become a victim of scaremongery. Giving refuge to those who flee war is not the same as open borders. UN researchers estimate that about 3 million Syrians will seek refuge in the EU in the medium term. Add to this Sudanese, Eritreans, and those whom our governments seem to hate most: Roma fleeing discrimination in the Balkan countries, and we are talking of about 5 million persons who have to be integrated into the EU of 500 million citizens. 85% of all refugees worldwide remain in developing, mostly very poor, countries, and it is a shame that Europeans show less solidarity with refugees than they do. And you expect that the left supports the unsolidaric way.
I note that you do not mention that granting refuge is not optional: you are advocating to abolish a human right. You are convinced that "there is not enough for all of us" and support a cap on human rights for financial reasons. Soory, your human rights for this year are used up. The same principle can (and will!) be applied to health care very soon, I guarantee you. And to pensions. And who demanded it? You. And you complain that a " leftwing debate club" doesn't follow you.
But at the moment we are far from resource limits for anything save rail transit. As far as I can see taking in about a million people would also only conflict with artificial limits like the Euro financial structure. Germany has what? 2 million empty flats? Also I would submit that the strength the far right can draw from refugees scales very weakly with their number since contact with refugees seems to actually decrease racism.
I'm still very pessimistic. While the wheels are definitely coming off the bullshit train our great leaders seem genuinely unable to deal with it. And in this case they usually default to short sighted misanthropy. Merkel opened the borders in a complete reversal of earlier policy since this was becoming a PR problem for her (#merkelstreichelt), now she reverses course again. All the while we hear about plans to bomb refugee boats, everyone involved in the Syrian war... Local activism can only compensate for official incompetence up to a certain point. After that will become necessary to throw the European Council into Mount Doom.
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