Clear Leadership from the EU | 68 comments (68 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: Clear Leadership from the EU (4.00 / 2)

Right now this is the £64 billion question.

Frankly, there is a majority in the House to say "Stay". But I really doubt that the legitimacy of parliament itself could survive thwarting the expressed will of the electorate in that way.

I think it would probably open the doors to a ukip parliament at the following GE and nobody who cares for the health of civic society would want that.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jun 27th, 2016 at 06:51:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clear Leadership from the EU (none / 1)

And still, at this late date, NO ONE of PROMINENCE will even try to explain clearly to the people what has been done to them and why they are suffering. No one will put forth an available optimistic path to make the society again function. Perhaps a UKIP government is all the UK can manage. Sanders did a whole lot better than anything I have seen in the UK. Why is that?

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Tue Jun 28th, 2016 at 01:47:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clear Leadership from the EU (4.00 / 4)

the leave people didn't expect, and seemingly, didn't want to win (Farage excepted).

But they didn't plan for the result of their wrecking ball. As somebody asked today, do you expect arsonists to bring water to their fire?

As is usual with these Eton toffs, politics is just a parlour game without consequences for them. It's just brinkmanship for applause at their Gentleman's Club. The realisation that they really have torpedoed SS Great Britain is beginning to sink home and they don't know what to do.

Cameron bears all the blame, as I've said ever since this whole sorry affair started is that his first job was not to let the British public, conditioned by the tabloids, have a bloody referendum on membership. They broke it and now they're gonna have to go down in history as being to blame for it.

Although right now the media seem to have decided that it's all Corbyn's fault, along with England's exit from the European Championship. To think there was a time when I just thought Cameron was a pig fucker, they're all at it

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Jun 29th, 2016 at 07:10:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

pig fucker? (none / 1)

To think there was a time when I just thought Cameron was a pig fucker,

Is that a more, or less civilized version of "motherfucker", or is it just British?

They tried to assimilate me. They failed.

by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Thu Jun 30th, 2016 at 10:46:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: pig fucker? (4.00 / 2)

It's a reference to Piggate.

by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Thu Jun 30th, 2016 at 10:52:32 AM EST
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Re: pig fucker? (4.00 / 2)

So he's a necrophilic pig fucker. Fantastic ... no wonder he went into politics.

They tried to assimilate me. They failed.

by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Thu Jun 30th, 2016 at 01:39:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clear Leadership from the EU (4.00 / 4)

Even supposing any British politician could coherently explain a case -- have you seen the press in the UK these days? It's completely toxic.

Like, "Holy shit, when did the BBC become Fox News?"-toxic.

Even traditionally left-leaning papers over there barely even qualify as Blairite trash anymore.

What's more, at least over here in the MSM you've got some younger reporters coming up who aren't beholden to the ancient Reaganist dogma (Olivia Nuzzi, Dave Weigel, etc), and the rise of "data journalism" and new media -- everything from HuffPo to Vox to FiveThirtyEight to the NYT's 6,000 blogs -- seems to be producing actual useful journalism again to counteract the cable news nonsense. Within five minutes of Donald Trump saying something stupid, it's been debunked by news sites and turned into some sort of brutal social media meme.

That hasn't really happened over there. At least not to anywhere near the same extent. Political coverage is getting better here, albeit slowly. Over there, it's a god-damned horror show.

A lot of media personalities here -- whether they support him or not -- genuinely like Bernie and are sympathetic to his causes, or at least feel they deserve a hearing. Bernie would simply be denounced as a lunatic in the UK media.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Wed Jun 29th, 2016 at 10:09:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clear Leadership from the EU (4.00 / 5)

We're all just waiting for Murdoch to die - although he probably won't unless he runs out of virgins' blood, or Satan decides it's time to call in the loan.

Dacre/Rothermere on their own are more or less manageable. But when they're playing on a tag team with Gollum, sanity becomes that much harder to find.

Corbyn has deliberately been sidelining the MSM and going social, which is an excellent long-term strategy. He may have run out of time, but I think he's laid enough of a foundation to keep some momentum going even if he's taken out.

So we only have another term of this - two at most. There may not be much left by then, but when the tide turns the change is going to be epic.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Jun 30th, 2016 at 02:19:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clear Leadership from the EU (none / 1)

Corbyn has deliberately been sidelining the MSM and going social...

This would explain why US citizens have heard nothing from him of note. Almost 18 months ago Sanders already had a significant social media presence. I don't know if that was visible to most Brits. Is there an easy way to get Corbyn's social media posts? Sanders was virtually blacked out of US press coverage and most of what he got was badly slanted. Yet we see what he accomplished. Has Corbyn been that far behind. I should have imagined he would have gotten such a project going right after gaining the leadership, if not well before.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Thu Jun 30th, 2016 at 02:45:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clear Leadership from the EU (none / 1)

Corbyn posts on FB sporadically. He refrained during this clusterfuck.
I mean really what did people expect him to do?
Try and steal thunder from opportunistic Tory twats?

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Thu Jun 30th, 2016 at 03:34:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clear Leadership from the EU (none / 1)

Provide quotable quotes for re-posting that concisely get to the meat of the real problem the UK is facing and what are the possible alternatives.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Thu Jun 30th, 2016 at 03:43:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clear Leadership from the EU (none / 1)

one of the more grounded criticisms of Corbyn is that he's a bit of an old fashioned meetings basher. Doesn't do soundbites, not very good on social media.

And that is as much the fault of the people who surround him who should doe exactly what Sanders' team were doing for him, filling in the gaps with a social media blitz.

Which is why supporting Corbyn and expecting him to win the next election is a bit of a struggle, he's just not working in the 21st century but expecting to communicate with people who do. Personally, I wish there was somebody else, but we are where we are

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu Jun 30th, 2016 at 05:05:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clear Leadership from the EU (none / 1)

Supporters should do it for him, but carefully. Start with things they know he will accept.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Thu Jun 30th, 2016 at 06:51:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clear Leadership from the EU (none / 1)

Better yet would be for a young progressive Labour candidate or one who wants to be a candidate in the next election to start posting progressive memes. Labour needs good candidates available now for every possible seat in the next election - which could be in a few months.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Thu Jun 30th, 2016 at 06:57:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clear Leadership from the EU (4.00 / 2)

The problem is -- where's that young progressive candidate?

That's the whole problem with the coup. If there's a potential leader to be found on short notice within the pool of Labour MPs, it's not obvious. Everybody's locked into either the Blairite or the anti-Blairite factions. Nobody's really got a vision for what Labour should be.

Simply saying "Recruit a bunch of young progressives to run against establishment figures" sounds great. In the US, you can do that via our primary process and grassroots fundraising. Dem and Rep activists have both pulled it off in recent history. Not so easy in Britain. The parties there are incredibly powerful.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Thu Jun 30th, 2016 at 09:26:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clear Leadership from the EU (none / 1)

But Corbyn has control of Labor at present. I don't see what would stop him from doing just that.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Thu Jun 30th, 2016 at 11:47:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clear Leadership from the EU (none / 1)

All I can think is that British left politicians just have a major attitude problem - one that is just not up to the current demands. Well, as they say: "The times make the man." Hope for their sake this happens.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Thu Jun 30th, 2016 at 11:51:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clear Leadership from the EU (4.00 / 4)

Latest new is Blair has generously offered his skills as a "serious statesman" to handle the Brexit negotiations - through a piece published in the Daily Torygraph.

At this point I'm beginning to suspect that the best way forward is to invite everyone from the last forty years of politics to Westminster, and then bury it under half a mile of concrete.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri Jul 1st, 2016 at 01:19:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clear Leadership from the EU (none / 1)

Talk about an attitude problem. The world's biggest twit can't even see himself in the mirror. The scary thought is that a new Tory government might just take him up, on the thought that they would then make it bi-partisan.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Fri Jul 1st, 2016 at 02:59:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clear Leadership from the EU (none / 1)

It's fine to not be terribly good with soundbites.

The problem with Corbyn, from my view, is this: Other than opposition to austerity (which I'm, of course, with him 110% on) and the National Investment Bank/"People's QE" (which sounded intriguing but, alas, was probably largely just populist rhetoric), I don't really understand what he stands for. He seems to have been a protest candidate who won, and now he doesn't really know what to do. The dog who caught the car, basically.

I could be wrong, but that's my impression of him.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Thu Jun 30th, 2016 at 09:45:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clear Leadership from the EU (none / 1)

If I may hazard a guess, what his followers want (other than the 2 features you mentioned) would be -is- that he be free from the rancorous betrayal of labour values embodied in Blair, Cambell and Mandelson, aka tory-lite.
If the price of that is a leader without telegenic charisma, juicy media-grabbing soundbites, or ability to lie fluidly and without compunction, then fine.

Sure, anachronistic. Completely unadapted to the current political landscape, yes!

We have become so used to the usual BS, it's chronic.

Normalised pathology, it's nice to know plenty of folks feel sick and tired of these politics, and want a simple, ordinary human with old-fashioned values instead of a cult of personality and a spin-machine to sell it.

As the Nasty Party goes into spasm prior to Chilcote revelations phony Tony is working all the old gears to try and head off the threat looming over him.

Leave or remain, a sideshow compared to what threatens Tory credibility.

I mean, Gove, FFS. May, pleeeease.

Boris has given a preview to you merkins what Chump is about to do to your Grand Old Perverts party.

Again, Ryan, wtf?

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Thu Jun 30th, 2016 at 10:28:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clear Leadership from the EU (none / 1)

Mercifully for Boris Gove used the hook to get him off the stage.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Fri Jul 1st, 2016 at 03:01:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clear Leadership from the EU (4.00 / 2)

If I may hazard a guess, what his followers want (other than the 2 features you mentioned) would be -is- that he be free from the rancorous betrayal of labour values embodied in Blair, Cambell and Mandelson, aka tory-lite.

That gets to precisely my point though. His whole schtick is just "That shit sucks" rather than saying, "You should make me PM, because I'll do x, y and z."

It's great to be against Thatcherism and Blairism n(I think we all agree with that), but what does that mean as a practical matter for the generic Brit on the street?

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sat Jul 2nd, 2016 at 12:10:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clear Leadership from the EU (4.00 / 3)

Corbyn's Shadow Chancellor, John McDoonnell, makes a start by outlining that program in The New Statesman:

What is needed in a crisis like this is urgent government action to shore up investment, already falling before the vote. Shovel-ready projects should be brought forward, creating jobs and focused on beginning to rebuild those parts of the country currently most deprived - and where the vote to Leave was strongest. As a country, we will get through this crisis, and we will do so when we no longer tolerate a situation in which too many of our people are excluded from even the chance of prosperity.

Elsewhere in the article he stressed the importance of ending austerity

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat Jul 2nd, 2016 at 12:37:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clear Leadership from the EU (4.00 / 2)

I still can't follow this line of reasoning. If Corbyn reverses Osborne's cuts, doesn't bomb a middle eastern country and picks a serious fight with the media organisations like he has promised he'd already be the best PM for generations. What else do you want?

by generic on Sat Jul 2nd, 2016 at 04:26:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clear Leadership from the EU (none / 0)

Anyone have a link to the promise to take on the media?

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sun Jul 3rd, 2016 at 03:48:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clear Leadership from the EU (4.00 / 3)

Jeremy Corbyn - The Big Interview (The Morning Star) - Jeremy Corbyn MP

Jeremy would no doubt agree: "I think the media's attitude towards the Labour Party and our campaign has been horrendous."
His shadow chancellor, John McDonnell, has long been associated with the Campaign for Press and Broadcasting Freedom -- as has the Morning Star. The campaign calls for curbs on the power of the handful of super-rich tycoons who control the bulk of the British press.
Would a Corbyn government take action to break up media monopolies? "Yes," he says immediately. "We are developing a media policy based on breaking up single ownership of too many sources of information.
"And actually promoting co-operative ownership and co-operative access, including local TV and radio stations and newspapers like the Morning Star."

by generic on Sun Jul 3rd, 2016 at 09:46:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clear Leadership from the EU (none / 1)

Thanks for this link. I now have The Morning Star added to my list of news links. I was wondering were a paper like The Daily Worker was in the UK. And I would recommend the linked 'long interview' of Jeremy Corbyn to any who still wonder what he stands for and intends.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sun Jul 3rd, 2016 at 02:26:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clear Leadership from the EU (4.00 / 2)

Corbyn promises to bring social justice. All those who voted him leader, you think they did it because of his looks?
It's also what he doesn't do, such as kowtowing to royalty or kitsch patriotism, betray his integrity to shill for the EU.
He did a bit of Obama being too nice to his political enemies.
Now he got his snakes to leave without firing them. Benn's tidily out of the way, now his arch-enemy is
May, UK's horrible Hillary.

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sat Jul 2nd, 2016 at 06:59:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clear Leadership from the EU (none / 1)

Speaking of people who are a disgrace to their family's long tradition, I offer you Hillalry Benn - prize winning example. I pray he gets deselected.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sun Jul 3rd, 2016 at 02:32:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clear Leadership from the EU (none / 1)

What. A. Weasel..

Go cuddle up with Gove already.

That apple really did roll far from the tree...

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sun Jul 3rd, 2016 at 04:51:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clear Leadership from the EU (none / 1)

More like it fell down Alice's rabbit hole - in a bad way.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Mon Jul 4th, 2016 at 02:38:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clear Leadership from the EU (4.00 / 4)

I don't think you could really have a social media aware Corbyn without loosing a lot of his effectiveness. People trust him because he is a relic from a bygone age not despite of it.
As to what he stands for: Opposing austerity is enough for the leader of opposition if it is not a election year. And even then it is worth more than all the all the focus grouped visions you tend to get usually.
I mean you can easily spend five years fixing the damage Dave from Marketing did and be not even half done.

I'm also rather fond of his People's QE. Putting the idea out there that banks get free money and you could to is the most effective attack on the household capacity I can think of on short notice.

by generic on Fri Jul 1st, 2016 at 07:57:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clear Leadership from the EU (4.00 / 3)

which is interesting cos they're missing a huge story on the extent of the planning and co-ordination of the coup against Corbyn.

But it's all over the blogs and the fightback is happening very quickly. To such an extent that the msm simply aren't seeing it and will be shocked when it fails and unable to explain it.

Which is a shame cos the de-selection of 150-odd MPs in the next couple of years is gonna be fun

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu Jun 30th, 2016 at 08:01:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clear Leadership from the EU (none / 1)

But it's all over the blogs and the fightback is happening very quickly.

Good! I had seen that a huge rally was to be held for Corbyn on Monday, but that could have been organized by the Labour national party. Are you getting daily FB posts, etc. from Corbyn supporters and critical of the elites?

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Thu Jun 30th, 2016 at 12:04:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clear Leadership from the EU (4.00 / 4)

I am friends with Corbynites, they post like crazy.

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Thu Jun 30th, 2016 at 03:36:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clear Leadership from the EU (4.00 / 5)

lots and lots of analysis on who is doing what within the coup, who is funding it and were the meetings were held.

Sadly, a major source of "info" is The Canary, which regard as a hyper, prone to leaping to press on scant info and arriving at the wrong destination. It ain't entirely trustworthy. Which is a shame cos 60% of the posting is very good and grounded, you just can't tell how good it is until some hours/days later

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu Jun 30th, 2016 at 05:07:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Clear Leadership from the EU | 68 comments (68 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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