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One suspects that the EU is developing additional guidelines about how future exit proposals will be handled, and is not publicizing them yet in order to not interfere with the Brexit process.

Note that two significant changes to the original setup of American system were needed before our federal government could really have its way. First, a Civil War that clarified that a state's joining the Republic was a one-way function, and second, an amendment (the 16th, in 1913) to our Constitution that allowed a federal income tax. The EU seems to be working out the first of these issues.

by asdf on Mon Dec 10th, 2018 at 09:22:04 PM EST
All that was after the debacle of the "The United States in Congress Assembled" under the 1781 Articles of Confederation.  As soon as the elites realized their $100 government bonds were only worth $20 because people thought the government would never pay back the original face value the current constitution was quickly written and passed.  

Moral:  get the bankers and elites deeply invested in worthless EU bonds and "an ever closer Union" will come lickety-split.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Mon Dec 10th, 2018 at 10:29:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's partly what the Euro is all about. No longer can Italy just devalue the Lira and thereby devalue its elite's accumulated and inherited wealth, and Germany will see to it that all debts are repaid...

Index of Frank's Diaries
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Mon Dec 10th, 2018 at 11:17:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
US states don't run budget deficits, though. They all have balanced budget rules (there are several variations), and they pretty much follow them.

Puerto Rico (not technically a state) is an example of what can happen if the rules are avoided. Similar to the EU PIGS.

by asdf on Tue Dec 11th, 2018 at 02:44:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But we haven't worked out the vital necessity of a federal income tax yet, and massive transfers from richer states towards the poorer ones.

Which is why the USA is a relatively successful federal state, and...

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Tue Dec 11th, 2018 at 10:51:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Now, you're on to something: transfer payments. How transfer payments (not 'authoritarism') curry political loyalty.

Consider, if you will litigation today between states and federal government about whether or not US gov may withhold payment from "sanctuary cities," for example of coercion. And no, this tactic was not invented 40 years ago.

Under what conditions has EU gov similarly rewarded or impoverished a member state?

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Tue Dec 11th, 2018 at 02:51:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The EU is proposing to withdraw structural funds from member states that don't respect the EU's values (a jab at Poland and Hungary) or the fiscal rules.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 11th, 2018 at 06:10:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Poland and Hungary being among the largest net recipients of EU funds, and yet the most likely to breach the democratic norms they are supposed to uphold per the Treaties.

Index of Frank's Diaries
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Tue Dec 11th, 2018 at 06:43:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Mississippi and Alabama are large net recipients of federal money, and have a history of breaching democratic norms.

A good thing is that by building huge military installations in those states, they become dependent on the federal government, which then has more leverage over them on the democratic norms front. A bad thing is that those states send just as many (or more, proportionally) representatives to Congress as do the richer states, which puts downwards pressure on the democratic norms.

by asdf on Wed Dec 12th, 2018 at 12:06:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Has this 'threat' come to pass? Need it?
Supreme court justices who would have been forced to retire will be allowed to stay on.
under the radar

For this threat to become a reality, however, all 27 other EU member states would have to support that next step. Poland has declared it will not support this, presumably to pre-empt the possibility of a similar action being taken against Poland.
Hungary and Poland: Rogue states threatening the EU?

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Tue Dec 11th, 2018 at 07:17:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
US States don't run budget deficits because they are sub-sovereign entities. The federal government runs a budget deficit for everyone. That's what's missing in the eurozone.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 11th, 2018 at 11:25:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Golden Bear chits

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Tue Dec 11th, 2018 at 02:51:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The EU is still stuck in the articles of confederation and needs a Hamiltonian bargain of fiscal federalism to become "a more perfect union".  

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 11th, 2018 at 11:24:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Is that a question?

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Tue Dec 11th, 2018 at 02:43:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, a claim.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 11th, 2018 at 06:08:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I have postulated elsewhere, contemporary ructions within EU member states as well as evolution and adoption of EP authorities is analogous to historical establishment of a strong central government bureaucracy and common currency among the USA, culminating in a notorious civil war here. Several european politicians have denied this analogy, "United States of Europe". Nonetheless, here you --as well as innerboob spectators in the USA -- feebly grappling competition among signatories to retain "sovereignty" while a bloodless political revolution ripens. The US gov't required some 100 years and trillions of US Treasury income tax authority and revenue, distributed as block grants ("incentives") among the sovereign states, to obviate "consensus" among states' legislators (10th Amd.). The EP is but 30-years-old.
[...]
in review, you may evaluate and anticipate controversy within EU social structures as I do from some perspective on perfect unions, not addressed from black histories of "civilization".
Article II. Each state retains its sovereignty, freedom, and independence, and every Power, Jurisdiction, and right, which is not by this confederation expressly delegated to the United States, in Congress assembled.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Tue Dec 11th, 2018 at 07:29:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I submit that is the wrong simile. The US took about 10 years, give or take two or three, to go from the Articles of Confederation to the federal Constitution.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 11th, 2018 at 08:58:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Tue Dec 11th, 2018 at 09:28:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
US CIVIL WAR plus Reconstruction Acts of 1867 which concluded, or restored the union, 1877.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Tue Dec 11th, 2018 at 09:29:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The timeline doesn't have to be the same for the EU as for the USA. And the USA's structure should not be considered an ideal goal, obviously! But the advantages of federation over confederation are apparent in both cases.
by asdf on Wed Dec 12th, 2018 at 12:09:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Although the century is young, EU leadership is doing its damnedest to avoid bloody civil war: "unprecedented." Call me in 2068 by ouija board.

As for "advantages of federation over confederation", apparent agreement of the peoples, even those correspondents at eurotrib, remains to be seen.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Wed Dec 12th, 2018 at 12:53:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
How many decades did each of the several US states issue its own currency?

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Tue Dec 11th, 2018 at 02:53:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The right to issue legal tender was given to the Federal government by the Constitution.  For many decades banks issued paper currency supposedly based on their gold reserves.  People had to accept the first at face value, didn't have to accept the second at face value or at all.

A potted history


She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Tue Dec 11th, 2018 at 05:41:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Spanish milled dollar. Continue ...

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Tue Dec 11th, 2018 at 06:50:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
From the abolition of the Second Bank of the US by Andrew Jackson in 1837 until the National Note system came into effect during the Civil War - 1862 if I recall correctly.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Tue Dec 11th, 2018 at 07:53:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
o, there was quite a bit of bother before '37. Some people like to hang history on the hillbilly's real estate schtick though, because it's too much trouble to disturb sleeping dog profiteers, when you've absolutely, positively must lecture on the inherent unity of the USA.

Private bankers and traders, holding reserves of sterling and gold, engaged in speculation with their own bank notes and domestic and foreign securities. 1837 wasn't the first panic or depression in the preceding decades. 1830 sticks out in my mind, because only one US bank resisted the urge to enter the UK railroad bubble --I think, it was Somerville? for a while lauded by historians (of the real bill persuasion) in its prudence.

US treasury (on coinage) and tax acts in the '50s are little recalled today.

The point of reviewing any of it y comparison to EU not-federalist proclivities is, US Americans endured a lot of FAILURE before hitching their wagons to centralized government.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Tue Dec 11th, 2018 at 09:20:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The state banks kept issuing notes after that, so a federal tax was imposed on state notes that effectively drove them out over the next 20 years or so.
by rifek on Mon Dec 24th, 2018 at 07:01:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Just such folly precipitated the Panic of 1830 and subsequently significant conformity of states' bankers with US Treasury regulations.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Tue Dec 11th, 2018 at 03:18:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
hmm, yes, well
I for one look forward to the day when producers at VOA/NPR exhume certified historians to "re-imagine" and interpret Chas. Beard's colossal investigation (344 pp) of the Founding Fathers' arbitrage wealth building schemes -- and the Hamilton! hand in it.
An Economic Interpretation of the Constitution of the United States*

---
* © 1918. O, look. Link to the text in the original comment has gone missing! One year on, now, you are encouraged to buy ahrum privatized edition from AMZN or peruse the wikiwtf digest... catch a road show production Hamilton!. Aren't you relieved that you saved your pdf to local disk?

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Tue Dec 11th, 2018 at 04:07:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The assumption that the federal government did not collect personal income tax before 1913 is a common fallacy. It did so directly from time to time and by stamp taxes. Think about perusing historical documents from the IRS and CRS sometime.

Rather than the occasional Federalist paper.

Also, there is no provision in the US Constitution that addresses secession of a state, orderly or not: one of the reasons, if ever, modern confederate 'intellectuals' refer to the 10th Amendment (civil right) rather than Article 10 to justify rebellion.

The apple does not fall far from the tree.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Tue Dec 11th, 2018 at 03:02:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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