Open Thread Feb - 4 Mar | 54 comments (54 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: Recession alert by fertility (none / 0)

If "the mechanism" affects births, then that should be measurable by looking at demographics. If it doesn't, then it doesn't.

So, what is your claim here exactly? 80% of kids are born to 20% of males? Don't you think that would have effects that should be visible outside of pickup artists seminars?

by fjallstrom on Mon Mar 12th, 2018 at 01:52:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Recession alert by fertility (none / 1)

Culture can be a massive counterweight to this kind of mechanism, evidently. As Robert Anton Wilson said:

It is sometimes mistakenly stated that there are no universal sexual taboos. This is not true. There is one omni-purpose taboo which exists in every tribe. That taboo stipulates that sexuality shall not be unregulated by the tribe.

Perhaps some suppression of sexuality is not that preposterous, after all. Here is a PUA-ish quote:

In the past, many people lived in a brutal patriarchal society where women were forced to be the sexual commodities of rich, powerful, or famous men.
In the present, many people live in a progressive feminist society where women volunteer to be the sexual commodities of rich, powerful, or famous men.

What will be real consequences of the massive feminine empowerment? Rational PUAs basically predict that Pareto picture (if you would really test). Unknowledgeable liberal males would be at real disadvantage then.

Besides, times are getting tougher, as the nanny post-WWII years are gone. That could plausibly be not so much the effect of unfortunate political turns, but a bio-social anticipation that the human tribe is hitting global limitations. Either way, consider this:

(1) Women now handle more resources than ever (perhaps). But resourceful women are not particularly attractive to the men they wish to be attracted to, according to the estrus model.

(2) Liberal males are generally not particularly resourceful, and things are getting worse. Silently they might be sidelined on a massive scale.

Compared to these rational considerations, your assumptions could be mostly wishful thinking.

by das monde on Mon Mar 12th, 2018 at 05:34:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Recession alert by fertility (none / 0)

But resourceful women are not particularly attractive to the men they wish to be attracted to, according to the estrus model.

Do you have any actual evidence - not anecdotal - for this? I find it doubtful that men who actually WANT to be married and have children would not be attracted to a resourceful woman. Most of my female in-laws are pretty resourceful and capable women. Overgrown, superannuated male children repel such women, and why should the woman have any confidence that such man-children will be around to help raise any children? You are assuming that married males are all pick-up artists at heart. Some are. But they usually don't stay married and are not particularly attractive even to distressed divorcees. Once burned twice shy.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Mon Mar 12th, 2018 at 07:21:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Recession alert by fertility (none / 0)

As far as I can tell, all this nonsense is about justifying being an asshole to women. That's all: immature, sad little men justifying exploiting and abusing the damage society does to women for their own pathetic attempts at sexual gratification.

I'm very inclined to treat it as Jérôme did astrology, and just ban the bullshit from the site.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Mar 12th, 2018 at 09:30:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Recession alert by fertility (none / 0)

PUAs are like "fake news": There is much outrage against, but they give the audience what it actively wants. For better or worse.

"Gaming" maturity is their secret. At least, they know what they are doing, in contrast to intellectual creeps.

by das monde on Tue Mar 13th, 2018 at 03:42:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Recession alert by fertility (none / 1)

China's Sheng-nu phenomenon is a vast example. The West does not put social pressure, but the same tendency is observable: the more educated and accomplished a woman is, the smaller pool of men may suit her. Self-asserted women would rather freeze their eggs than settle for a real guy from around.

Which views rely more on anecdotical evidence: that families with women as principal breadwinners are totally fine, or not at all? It is yet easier to settle maturely for a marriage than make a childbearing compromise. Divorce rates are "scarily" growing, and women initiate a great majority of them. They seem to enjoy indignation towards "subpar" husbands rather ruthlessly.

The whole demographical transition to lower birthrates has a more detailed explanation in the theory that more educated women are much more choosy and (at least) less enthusiastic with bearing children with men of about equal status. UN data says that we just reached peak baby, with significant exception in Africa only, where prospects for improving status, the living standard or marrying up are still well believable.

For the rational PUA frame on this, you may check the 25:55-33:00 part in this video. (If you continue to listen, you may learn about his marriage.)

by das monde on Tue Mar 13th, 2018 at 03:06:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Recession alert by fertility (none / 0)

China's 'one child' policy, combined with the cultural prejudice in favor of male children, has, as predicted, produced a demographic problem with too few women in the age cohort. Naturally the resulting problems become more exacerbated the higher one goes on any metric, intelligence, socially desirable appearance, education, wealth...

I certainly will not criticize any Chinese woman for her choices regarding reproduction. That is her choice and horny males can go fuck themselves if she is not interested in them.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Tue Mar 13th, 2018 at 05:45:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

"demographic problem" ? (none / 0)

for who? My child spent the summer of '16 with a Beijing family. The mother had five siblings.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Tue Mar 13th, 2018 at 06:11:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Recession alert by fertility (none / 0)

Thus "men who actually WANT to be married and have children" are too horny. Eurotrash is not particularly attractive either.

"I would rather cry in a BMW than laugh on a bicycle."

by das monde on Wed Mar 14th, 2018 at 05:41:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

"Breeding" (none / 0)

Hippocrates, On Airs, Waters, and Places, Pt.14

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Tue Mar 13th, 2018 at 06:26:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Recession alert by fertility (none / 0)

The whole demographical transition to lower birthrates has a more detailed explanation in the theory that more educated women are much more choosy and (at least) less enthusiastic with bearing children with men of about equal status. UN data says that we just reached peak baby, with significant exception in Africa only, where prospects for improving status, the living standard or marrying up are still well believable.

So instead of children per woman decreasing evenly, you would have one group of women continuing having many children and another ot having any? Right?

Sounds totally off base to me, but it is a testable statement. Now go see if you can find data that supports your statement.

by fjallstrom on Tue Mar 13th, 2018 at 10:37:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Recession alert by fertility (none / 0)

Why would you assume that "children per woman" would decrease somewhat evenly?

Comparing sizes of rich patriarchal families with families of highly successful women would be interesting -- but I have choices on whom to work for. Is there any update on conservative versus liberal families?

In nature, females of hierarchical species typically do not reproduce evenly at all. What happens in the next 5 minutes in this video should not be surprising.

by das monde on Wed Mar 14th, 2018 at 05:21:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Recession alert by fertility (none / 1)

The new Oxford Handbook of Evolution, Biology, and Society is highly recommendable.

Evolution and Human Reproduction
Section "Social Status, Wealth, and Reproduction" is what we are talking about.

Evolution, Societal Sexism, and Universal Average Sex Differences in Cognition and Behavior

contrary to most scientists' expectations, these so-called universal sex differences have been shown to be more pronounced in Western industrial societies than in most non-Western developing societies

by das monde on Sat Mar 17th, 2018 at 04:33:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Reference (none / 0)

Population genomic analysis of elongated skulls reveals extensive female-biased ["]immigration["] in Early Medieval Bavaria

Artificial Cranial Deformation (AC): This phenotypical modification is found worldwide but not commonly associated with eurocentric, "Aryan" lineage, because. Mating "selection" is explicitly and implicitly expressed in the inferences, denoting "exogamy" in search of "status".

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Tue Mar 13th, 2018 at 06:22:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

"global limitations" (none / 0)

because territorial border enforcement.

With that relatively modern constraint on human "natural selection" in mind, you may be interested in reading or re-reading Totem and Taboo.

Freud's theories of repressed sexuality and suppressed incest aversion among Victorian individuals, drawn from the patronizing ethnographic monographs of the day, appears to me very much alive in eurocentric fixations with "legitimate" offspring, over-population, proprietary claims to female reproductive capability, M/F genital "mutilations", so-called sexual revolution.

"Meme" to think of the next time one "consumes" fertility statistics.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Tue Mar 13th, 2018 at 08:47:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Open Thread Feb - 4 Mar | 54 comments (54 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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