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Besides, it seems that Russians tried to support Sanders against Clinton.

If Sanders had not explicitly condemned all of their actions, I would have been very uncomfortable with him, however much I liked the way he brought the political discourse leftwards.

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Sat Feb 24th, 2018 at 01:53:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Am I to understand this event did NOT occur?
Sanders supporters revolt against superdelegates, FEB 2016
That false US personas fabricated this event?
Bernie Sanders Delegates Are Furious and a DNC Floor Protest is Possible JULY 2016
That the editorial management of Vanity Fair is composed of Russian co-conspirators to defraud the US government?
DEMOCRATIC PRIMARIES OVERSHADOWED BY VIOLENT PRO-SANDERS REVOLT MAY 2016
That Russian people's "political advertising" -- reproducing that news or solicitations to petition the DNC-- sabotaged the unity of the Democratic Party?

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Sat Feb 24th, 2018 at 07:44:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
As I have said elsewhere, the Russians simply wanted to disrupt the effectiveness of Clinton as President.

They didn't support Trump so much as saw him as a useful vehicle to throw mud at Clinton and the US political process. Similarly with Sanders, his role was to undermine Clinton and the Russians were willing to help him all the way. Especially after the primaries where online troll campaigns to suggest that her victory was tainted were intended to damp down enthusiasm from Sanders supporters for Clinton's Presidency attampt.

Classic "enemy of my enemy is my friend". I don't think Putin expected Trump to win. Rather, given how the loss has led to the US digging up the drains on the methods used, he'd rather Trump lost but allowed the GOP to win the rest of DC and tie her up like they tied up Obama. The US would have had 8 years of emails and Benghazi, giving the russians carte blanche in the rest of the world. And that's what the russians really wanted.

For the russians, Trump's has been a Pyrrhic victory

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sun Feb 25th, 2018 at 05:39:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Clinton would have had 8 years of Benghazi and emails even without the Russians. You can count on Fox "News" for that. I doubt Putin is so stupid to waste his time on that.  If that's all it was about, it was probably Russian hackers working on their own initiative.
by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Tue Feb 27th, 2018 at 07:33:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
While I agree in principle, there seems to be some personal bad blood between Putin and Hillary, concerning the Libya "no-fly-zone". And Hillary was one of the most hostile candidates. So the release of the DNC files I consider a real possibility. (Though if that was indeed true, why wait until after the primary?) But paying a few interns to shit post? Unless the Russians really have this unmatched competence they have in the Spike whatever they tried would just be noise below the billions poured into propaganda by all the other players.
by generic on Tue Feb 27th, 2018 at 05:08:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It was president Mevedev who got hoodwinked by the Obama administration and SoS Hillary Clinton in 2011 to the chagrin of Vladimir Putin.

The lessons of Serbia and Kosovo were not learned, the Americans are for regime change contrary to the UN Charter guaranteeing protection of sovereign states on their internal affairs. That is the prime reason for China to use its veto in the UNSC. It was the international intelligence community that colluded with the false claims of WMDs in Iraq when it was already burdened by a decade of UN sanctions. The illegality of the US led invasion in close liason with the UK was never in question.

The next step by old colonial states of the West with the US is to use the prerogative of the R2P principle. It was conceived after the illegal bombing of Serbia in the 1990s and used to get a first protection order from the UNSC in 2011 for NATO led bombing raids on troops  of Gaddafi. It was to break the siege and "protect" the citizens of Mirata. Russia under Medvedev agreed, the US and the West escalated and set the goal for regime change.

George Bush had failed in 2008 to protect the Rose Revolution of Saakashvili's Georgia and its act of aggression towards South Ossetia. In 2014, the West, NATO and Victoria Nuland succeeded in de coup d'état in Kiev and install a Western ally in the Ukraine. That Crimea would stay under Russian influence should have been a calculated known.

Ever since April 2008 and the NATO meeting in Bucharest, it was clear the United States would not accept Russia as a partner but preferred a Cold War defiance and make Russia a pariah state.

Jaap de Hoop Scheffer: "NATO should not have committed to membership of Ukraine and Georgia."

Israel, the Serbia with Nukes ...
Covered by DeAnander here and Sirocco @BooMan

Global Warming - distance between America and Europe is steadily increasing.

by Oui on Wed Feb 28th, 2018 at 06:31:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Dermokratiya, USA
In 1996, a chaotic mix of Russian schemes -- from fraud and profiteering to old-fashioned conspiracy -- worked to keep Yeltsin in the driver's seat. Throughout, American players silently watched, facilitated, and at times, actively helped construct the Faustian bargain between Yeltsin and his oligarch supporters. This pact would have ruinous effects on Russia's democracy and economy in the decades to come.

[...] it's striking that American influence in Russia was so openly acknowledged. The public record shows clear points of direct American coordination, collusion, and action in Yeltsin's favor. One can only guess what the two nations' archival records would reveal.

[...]

Despite domestic pressure, Clinton made good on his promises to Yeltsin. During the first half of 1996, the White House pushed for a timely IMF loan, refrained from publically pressing for NATO expansion, ignored the Russian oligarchs' massive campaign of fraud and theft, and stayed silent on Yeltsin's brutal war in Chechnya. Clinton also honored Yeltsin's request to not meet privately with Zyuganov during his visit to Moscow. Pickering pressured Grigory Yavlinsky, a member of the liberal Yabloko Party, to drop out of the election's first round to help Yeltsin's chances.

Clinton's staunch defense of Yeltsin's Chechen assault eventually descended into the absurd [...]

That the Yeltsin campaign employed American consultants is hardly controversial. The relay between Richard Dresner and Clinton's chief strategist Dick Morris, however, crossed the line. In his memoir Behind the Oval Office, Morris notes that Dresner offered to keep him in the loop on the Russian presidential race. With Clinton's approval, Morris received weekly opinion poll briefings that he would share with the president, who would in turn pass on recommendations to Dresner via Morris.

Was it some other Clinton?
by das monde on Wed Feb 28th, 2018 at 07:26:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The US has always interfered in the internal affairs of other states, sometimes not even bothering with rigged elections, just installing their preferred strong man dictator directly.

However it is totally unacceptable for Russia to interfere in US elections. That would be to imply that Russia is somehow the equal of God's own country and the World's only legitimate superpower.

The only country with a special licence to interfere in US elections is Israel. Hell they can even install their operatives in the US defence and intelligence establishment without being accused of spying.

Lying Hillary was fair game as far as Trump was concerned. She should have been in jail anyway. All this Russian collusion stuff is just liberal whingeing anyway. As the Mafia used to say: "It's just business"...

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Wed Feb 28th, 2018 at 10:08:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Am I to understand that eurotrib.com supports foreign "political advertising" that disparaged Bernie Sanders?
Bernie Bernedict Arnold booed by his own supporters at the DNC who he betrayed
Or eurotrib.com "reach" is limited to internet subscribers who are not US citizens?


Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Sat Feb 24th, 2018 at 07:51:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I have something to confess, Cat: in all the time since you have been here, I don't reckon I have really understood what you wrote even once.

Initially I would try, hard, with every post. Then I realised that I had invested many hours and yet could still not say with any certainty that I had understood even one post.

So nowadays I usually check the signature after a few words when struggling and, most of the time, skip the post. Not that I have anything against you, and I regret not being able to understand, but I only have so many hours to live.

But this time I have to assume that you are addressing me, as you respond to my post. All I can say if, I don't mind engaging, but you'll need to make an effort of intelligibility.  I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to say or imply.

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Sun Feb 25th, 2018 at 04:23:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Fair enough.

I have the advantage of cumulative knowledge, historicity or "lived experience" as the children say these days, of US politics and public policy --pertaining to personal, city, state, and national events-- that some eurotrib commenters do not have. I have the advantage of formal and vernacular US-English fluency that US some eurtrib commenters do not possess.

Admitting this is not to assert my authoritative position in this context, but to agree with you that sometimes I will read US media reporting differently than eurotrib commenters. I will detect false or true statements quicker than some eurtrib commenters, and I comment in brief. That is my comment relates to my knowledge base not yours. So I frequently comment with links to third-party material which supplement information available to eurotrib readers. Do I expect readers to "click through" those links? Not immediately, if ever. Such are the limitations and contingent utility of gratuitous remarks --"memes"-- which sustain social media communications.

Having said that, here, I was responded specifically to your remarks...

Besides, it seems that Russians tried to support Sanders against Clinton...
with four (4) questions relating that conclusory statement to three (3) links to the extraordinary political activities of "real US persons" which determined "support [for] Sanders" in the USA.

You have not responded to those questions. Instead you question my coherence. Alrighty then.

Help yourself understand the language of illegal foreign political activity by reading the US Special Counsel's indictment of IRA before you comment again on the subject.


Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Sun Feb 25th, 2018 at 08:36:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
First, thanks for making a clear effort there.

I am puzzled by your questions. They seem so unrelated. For instance, why should my post imply that an event did not occur? I made no such claim.

So, if you want me to respond to that question, well, no, you are not to understand that a particular even did not occur from a statement that made no such claim.

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Sun Feb 25th, 2018 at 09:12:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, you did:
Besides, it seems that Russians tried to support Sanders against Clinton....
is a conclusory statement, a "claim". This claim does not refer to any facts other than your recall and opinion of Mr Sanders' repudiation of alleged illegal foreign political activities.
If Sanders had not explicitly condemned all of their actions, I would have been very uncomfortable with him, however much I liked the way he brought the political discourse leftwards.
"why should my post imply that an event did not occur?"
Your conclusory remarks do not refer to any facts which "seem" to represent either specific illegal political activity OR specific legal political activity during the US primary or general election period. Your "post" assigns significance to indeterminate events.

Events which I link (above) represent counterfactual arguments to your statement.

In fact "it seems" that "real US persons" tried to support Sanders against Clinton. There are additional factual arguments representing legitimate, contemporaneous, and significant "support" for Sanders against Clinton archived as well at eurotrib.com, not least of which are legal briefs and orders concerning Sanders' delegates litigation against DNC "political activities".

Now.

Say what you want. Respond to my comments if you will or not.

I'll not be silent on matters of measuring and assigning significance to speech, while US gov litigation against IRA seeks to define "meddling and interference" and restrict the scope of "political activity" anywhere at anytime to telecommunications produced only by "real US persons." Because I can.

Were the Special Counsel's prosecution of IRA trivial, illegal political activities to prevail here, US gov could in future indict and prosecute you, any commentary about US political candidates, and the owner(s) of eurotrib.com URL under FARA because none of you had registered your "real" persons as a foreign agent operating in the USA.

With the assistance of your national gov and EU gov statutes and law enforcement agents. Quid pro quo.

Don't think the next figure of US justice won't try.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Sun Feb 25th, 2018 at 11:04:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"Your conclusory remarks do not refer to any facts which "seem" to represent either specific illegal political activity OR specific legal political activity during the US primary or general election period. Your "post" assigns significance to indeterminate events."

You claim to have an advantage over us of a lot of cumulative knowledge, so much so that you write with the implicit assumption that people have read a whole lot of documents, so it should have been a given that you were aware of the Mueller indictments.
Which are rather more researched than articles in the press.
Since you link to them, surely you have read them.

"Events which I link (above) represent counterfactual arguments to your statement. "

No they did not. That some American people were campaigning for Sanders (would anyone suggest otherwise?) is not a counterfactual to the suggestion that Russian bots smeared Clinton while deliberately not attacking him.

Sanders himself does not seem to deny it:
"https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2018/02/21/bernie_sanders_i_did_not_know_russian_bots_were_ promoting_my_campaign_real_question_is_about_clinton.html"

As for your fantasy that an organised operation, funded by people with very clear geopolitical interests, that pretends to be a huge number of US citizens posting on all sorts of social media, is in any way similar to a website where people, who at no point pose as what they are not and only post within its confines... well, you say you won't stop because you can, so I guess there is no point in commenting...

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Mon Feb 26th, 2018 at 12:40:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
heh. I'll let that pass.

US DISTRICT COURT FOR THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF FLORIDA
Plaintiffs-appellants motion granted to amend the complaint is GRANTED 10 Jan 2018

archived:
case history through DEC 2017
Welding et al. v. DNC Services Corp., d/b/a [!] Democratic National Committe MAY 2017


Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Tue Feb 27th, 2018 at 02:43:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Just like Cyrille, I often cannot make sense of your writings: the elliptic references to some backgrounds I obviously don't know anything about, the lengthy dissertations covering screens after screens of comment threads leaving me really confused.

And it's a crying shame because I'm sure you have very interesting things to point out to, that we've never seen from our side of the pond. But in the end, I just fail to decipher your point and I end up just skipping over your writings and moving on. Sorry.

by Bernard on Mon Feb 26th, 2018 at 08:50:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Like Cyrille and Bernard, I too often have difficulty following the logic or relevance of your posts, Cat, and this is in no way intended as an insult or put-down. It is simply a matter of fact.

In my case it can also not be put down to a lack of familiarity with English, either formal or vernacular, although I fully accept some US idiomatic expressions may be unfamiliar to me.

Some of my issues in understanding your posts relate to content, some to style, and some to context.

In terms of context, the posts often appear to have only the most elliptical or abstruse relevance to the main topic under discussion in a diary.

In terms of content, they often reveal a detailed knowledge of a particular, sometimes obscure, and often legalistic understanding of a topic although I often don't read the documents you cite to mean what you say they mean.

In terms of style, your prose often seems needlessly complex, formal, legalistic, even pretentious. It sometimes feels you write to impress others with your superior knowledge rather than to inform, educate, or even entertain. Occasionally, your interaction with others appears to border on the arrogant or insulting.

I'm sure you don't mean it to be so, but it is important that one is aware of how one's on-line persona can come across to others who have no particular axe to grind with you and mean you nothing but the best. You may be concerned that few enough people here engage with you, and that may be part of the reason.

Writing is a form of communication and you have to try and meet your readers half-way - so that they can link their experience to yours. Coming from very different places with difference styles doesn't imply ignorance or superiority, just difference.

I think Bernard and Cyrille have been very respectful and courteous in their engagement with you and have tried to understand where you are coming from. I hope you will extend them a similar courtesy.

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Tue Feb 27th, 2018 at 01:29:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I mean no offense to you, Cyrille, Bernard or anyone else.

I contribute mostly to NEWSROOM threads. Just as Oui began to contribute to DIARY topical diversity. These take me a while to read but are very informative on topics I know nothing about.

NEWROOM wasn't much populated when I returned to eurotrib, and there was some concern about site participation decline, was there not?

Adding TRUMP to the newsroom was not my doing. Did it increase volume of eurotrib site visits?

I struggle even now to imagine eurotrib-appropriate responses to TRUMP-topics other than open-ended litigation of conspiracy charges and digital advertising practices.

I have linked many primary source documents and gov websites on matters of ostensible vital interest to eutrib "context" and my own in the USA which is necessarily, culturally and politically unorthodox.

I went over this before

I read these pdf's at least once because media digests are unreliable truth-bearers. They always have been. That is the purpose of propaganda, is it not?

Does this "pretension" annoy eurotrib readers?

Canvassing daily news to populate eurotrib NEWSROOM  or OPEN THREAD and inform myself has become a habit. Nested excerpts of pdfs may well look like "lengthy dissertations covering screens after screens of comment threads leaving me really confused" on a phone.

I admit, I add related topical commentary and questions to my own diaries whether or not anyone else comments on the diary subject.

Does this "pretension" annoy eurotrib readers?

I have a lot of leisure time. I thought that obvious. I track multiple topics' developments over time as indicated when I remember to append archived links to my comments. That is not to show off. These are breadcrumbs. Breadcrumbs lead to off-site track-backs. Referring builds visitor volume and sometimes reciprocal linking.

I will stop immediately since this activity is received as my sense of "superiority." It is useless.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Tue Feb 27th, 2018 at 06:35:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks for your considered response and your contributions are welcome even if some of us find them difficult to understand or engage with. Diversity is a key value for Eurotrib if we are to grow in readership and relevance.

My comment is specific to your style of engagement with other contributors and you may have wondered why so few even try to engage. Maybe you can attract new members who will find your style much more intelligible and engaging. Perhaps some of us old-timers have gotten too used to our own comfort zones.

For reason of time I focus mostly on trying to keep the front page ticking over with European specific topics.  So I can't comment on your contributions to NEWSROOM.  Many thanks for helping to keep it going. Primary sources are always to be preferred. I am not aware of any issues with the TRUMP strand there.

I think you misunderstand what I was trying to say in relation to "pretentious" which relates more to style of engagement rather than content. But I have expressed it as well as I can and so will just leave it at that. Your presence here is valued and appreciated even if some of us find it very difficult to engage with you.

The thing is, Eurotrib is for all who want to participate in good faith and if you can find a way to participate here to your own satisfaction I will be more than pleased.

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Tue Feb 27th, 2018 at 10:06:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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