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I wish you luck in deafeating the power of the clergy. However, from the outside, Ireland still looks like a theological tyranny. The Dail sseems to prefer to act as a rubber stamp for their clerical overlords than as a representative of the people who elected them.

I appreciate that the population are disgusted by many aspects of the Church, but they still turn out in droves on sunday. And worse, in Ireland as elsewhere, politicians are, as a group, more religious than the people they represent. I guess it's something about conservatism, power and authoritarianism.

But the implication is clear that, because of that sentiment, polticians will always abase themselves before the cloth and legislate accordingly.  

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Mar 9th, 2018 at 08:58:28 PM EST
Weekly mass attendance in Ireland is down from 91% in 1972 to 30% in 2011. Priests and religious orders are literally dying out.  Same sex marriage has been legalised.  Secular "Educate together" schools are opening all over the place. Bishops are often ignored, even by the "faithful".  Foreign born immigrants (who make 16% of the population, greater than the UK's 13%) are often more religious than native born. I'm not saying the Churches have no influence, but that their influence has been in secular decline, much more so than in other Catholic countries like Spain, and perhaps even the UK.

Index of Frank's Diaries
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Fri Mar 9th, 2018 at 10:01:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You picked the day the government  brought forward  a bill for a repeal of the 8th amendment and an abortion regime much like the U.K's to write that.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 9th, 2018 at 11:17:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Women's Day needed a bright spot.


"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat Mar 10th, 2018 at 03:37:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You mean like some of the UK. One like Northern Ireland, let alone Gibraltar, wouldn't be one to brag about.
by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Sat Mar 10th, 2018 at 05:59:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Under the EU proposals for Brexit, there can be no "regularity divergence" between Ireland and N. Ireland, and the DUP insists their can be none between N. Ireland and Britain. Of course that only applies to things where they want no divergence, like trade or immigration, and not where they do - like same marriage equality, abortion etc. As usual it's have cake and eat it...

Index of Frank's Diaries
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Sat Mar 10th, 2018 at 11:37:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The point of my post is that, whatever the sentiment of the people, it is politicians who legislate and they are far too prone to doffing a cap to the cloth.

Referenda can happen, legislation can be proposed, but it is the laws that make it to statute that matter. And it is polticians who have to pass them, and I simply do not trust the independence of polticians when it comes to matters of religion. That cynicism isn't restricted to Ireland, it's a problem all over the world.

Look at the DUP. The UK has bishoops, rabbis and imams in the House of Lords. The previous leader of the Liberal Democrats has admitted that he could never have supported gay rights in Parlaiment, several members of the Tory party continue to raise the issue of abortion in the UK and many commentators admit that, if it were a secret ballot of politicians so that they would not have to face consequences for their vote, abortion would be prohibited in the UK.

Look at the USA !!!!!

Never, ever, trust politicians when it comes to religion. Right now, this essay was about Ireland and abortion, so I said, don't trust the politicians.

I'm sure the referendum will have the right result, but then you have to legislate and that's wwhen the Church will stick its oar in, because that's when it's most effective.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sat Mar 10th, 2018 at 08:51:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I accept your general point - politicians tend to respond more to the wishes of donors and well organised lobby groups than they do to majorities in the populace at large which don't contribute to their campaigns, don't represent an organised threat to their re-election, may be susceptible to false or misleading propaganda, and indeed may or may not bother to vote.

However you also said:

However, from the outside, Ireland still looks like a theological tyranny. The Dail seems to prefer to act as a rubber stamp for their clerical overlords than as a representative of the people who elected them.

I appreciate that the population are disgusted by many aspects of the Church, but they still turn out in droves on Sunday. And worse, in Ireland as elsewhere, politicians are, as a group, more religious than the people they represent

.
That was all certainly true of Ireland in the past, but I'm suggesting to you that it is less true now, and possibly even less true of Ireland now than (say) Spain or the UK. I wish I were 100% sure the referendum will pass (my children are delaying their travel plans so as to be sure of being in the country to vote), but it will not take place in a policy vacuum.

Cabinet agrees to table legislation to hold an abortion referendum

The Government will publish on Friday a short policy paper outlining a proposed future abortion law, which it will introduce in the Dáil if the referendum is passed.

It will commit to abortions on request up to 12 weeks and propose that a time period should be introduced between the request for a termination and the abortion pill being accessed.

It would not stretch beyond three days, it is understood. The two options being examined are a dated prescription or requesting the woman return to the doctor in the following days.

After 12 weeks, two medical professionals will be asked to determine the risk to a woman's life, health or mental health before a termination can be provided. The same will apply in the cases of fatal foetal abnormalities. An appeals mechanism will be available to the woman in the event she is unsatisfied with the outcome.

There is no absolute guarantee that an abortion law to effect the above policy will be passed post referendum because the Government is a minority government and will allow a free vote. Any law passed can also be amended in the future. However it will be a brave politician who will vote against the will of the people as expressed in the referendum having taken place in the context of the above government legislative proposals. You have had some recent experience of how few politicians are prepared to vote with their conscience if it is contrary to even a very narrow referendum result.

However I do have some misgivings. Ireland has been travelling in a progressive liberalising direction for about the last 30 years but that trend has been sharply reversed in the US, UK and some Eastern European countries. I am fearful of the day that happens in Ireland as well, and hopeful that it will not happen in time to defeat the 8th. the Amendment (legalisation of Abortion) referendum proposal. I always said that the 1960's didn't happen until the 1970's in Ireland.  Hopefully the Trump/Brexit/neo-fascist era won't arrive here for another few years yet.

I also hope your cynicism isn't widely shared in Ireland. It is difficult to motivate people to go out and vote if they are convinced it won't make any difference anyway...

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Sat Mar 10th, 2018 at 12:14:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, if we had 30% religious attendance that'd be 18 million every sunday. I think you'll find that, even with other religions included, the figure barely gets much above 3 or 4 million. 30% is colossal. And  a political class that recognises and is wary of that bloc will be more easily influenced. It is imperative to recognise that dead hand in Irish politics

As for the UK, despite our polticians, Alaistair Campbell was right; "We don't do god". Overtly religious politicians are somewhat distrusted here, even if demonstrations of observance are standard fare (for some reason a picture of Mrs May attending church is always released to the papers for monday deadline, and they often publish it).

They keep trying on abortion, but c/w in even the most right wing newspapers is that any govt that seriously intrudes on women's rights in this regard will fall the day after. They can talk all they like, but they'd never dare do anything.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sat Mar 10th, 2018 at 12:38:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think something like a third of your academies are faith schools. Do they not "do God" in them?
by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Sat Mar 10th, 2018 at 01:24:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yea but 30% down from 90%+ is a big trend, and the Irish do cognitive dissonance better than anyone. How many of those 30% actually believe or follow Catholic social teaching?

Government to consider introducing free contraception for all

The Government will consider providing free contraception, in the event the Eighth Amendment is removed from the Constitution.

Minister for Health Simon Harris has confirmed his department will make proposals by the end of March to reduce crisis pregnancies.

The "nature and scope''of measures to improve access to counselling, contraception and perinatal care will be examined by an internal Department of Health group. Chief medical officer Tony Holohan will be involved in bringing forward the proposals. Free contraception was originally proposed by the Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment.

How many will refuse? And this is a government allegedly led by the most right wing leader of the most right wing party in the state.

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Sat Mar 10th, 2018 at 02:10:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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