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A Perfect Storm | 157 comments (157 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)
Re: A Perfect Storm (none / 1)
How is that antidemocratic?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jun 6th, 2018 at 02:10:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: A Perfect Storm (none / 1)
The wrong governments got elected.

Index of Frank's Diaries
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Wed Jun 6th, 2018 at 02:23:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: A Perfect Storm (none / 1)
Executive power grab? Also not taking notes means there is little accountability?
by generic on Wed Jun 6th, 2018 at 02:45:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: A Perfect Storm (4.00 / 3)
The vast majority of EU member states have elected centre right or right wing governments. Each government is represented on the Council and reports back to it's national Parliament on Council meetings. The President of the Council reports to the European Parliament.

The vast majority of Council decisions are made by "consensus" - effectively unanimously. Therefore it doesn't take much to block a decision - if there was much in the way of a minority view. Unfortunately there isn't much of a minority left wing view. Indeed if there is a minority view, it is represented by far right governments from Poland, Hungary, Austria etc.

So we are lucky that so far they haven't blocked much Council business. The Council "consensus" decisions generally represent the mainstream conservative majority of the Council. That's democracy, whether we like it or not.

If you want to argue for more powers for the European parliament I'm with you on that. But arguing that the EU Council is undemocratic because you don't like its decisions is itself anti-democratic. Not many government institutions world-wide require consensus decision making. If anything, it is all too easy for a relatively small minority to block Council business.

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Wed Jun 6th, 2018 at 03:35:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: A Perfect Storm (none / 0)
The not taking notes when acting as a legislature is a problem. Not so much when acting as an executive.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jun 6th, 2018 at 09:52:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: A Perfect Storm (none / 0)
It's normal, in business, for minutes to record actual decisions rather than the to and fro of whatever discussion took place. The same goes for most Government cabinets. The absence of "word for word" records or videotapes is meant to stop leaders grandstanding for lobby groups or various constituencies back home. If everything were recorded, then the real meetings would take place behind closed doors elsewhere, and the formal meetings would be mostly for show.

Even as it is, "Council Conclusions" are generally circulated for discussion and agreement in the week prior to the meeting so that the outcome of formal meetings are generally already a "forgone conclusion". Most decisions have already been made by consensus beforehand.

It is only when there is a genuine crisis, or unforeseen developments, when decisions have to be made "on the hoof" at the actual formal meetings themselves. The professional diplomats and EU Officials hate it when this happens because they lose control of the process.

The UK has been trying to delay conclusions until the last minute, in the hope of stampeding Prime Ministers into a hasty decision. It hasn't been working. There is a reason the process is so convoluted. The issues are complex with so many interests involved. Personally I am nearly always surprised at how well the system works considering there are 27 governments involved.

Look at how difficult one government is finding it to come up with agreed positions on Brexit...

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Wed Jun 6th, 2018 at 10:42:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: A Perfect Storm (4.00 / 4)
Council has two functions. You're right about the executive function, but when it's legislating it should be in public.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Jun 7th, 2018 at 07:18:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: A Perfect Storm (none / 1)
European Council powers and functions
Although the European Council has no direct legislative power, under the "emergency brake" procedure, a state outvoted in the Council of Ministers may refer contentious legislation to the European Council. However, the state may still be outvoted in the European Council.

The The ordinary legislative procedure, when it occurs, is incredibly document intensive with an enormous paper trail of amendments as it winds it's way through the process:

The legislative functions of the Council

The decision-making process begins with the European Commission sending the proposal for a new law, after it has been approved by the College of Commissioners. The working parties of the Council of Ministers receive the proposal and identify points of agreement and disagreement (agreement listed as I; disagreement and further discussion as II). Then they send the proposal to COREPER. COREPER looks at the proposal and tries to reach agreements on the remaining problems. It divides points into two categories: A items (agreement reached), B items (disagreement). The agreed A items are sent to relevant Councils. The Councils look at the proposal and decide whether to approve it or not and very often they agree without voting (McCormick, 2011 B, p. 194). When a vote is needed however, Qualified Majority Voting is used in most cases.

The number of voices given to each Member State is specified by the Treaty.  You can use the voting calculator to see which countries have the most votes.

Once the decision has been reached by the Council, the proposal goes to the European Parliament. The Parliament and the Council might pass it back and forth - with amendments - up to twice. If no agreement is reached, the proposal goes to the meeting of the Conciliation Committee, made up of representatives of the Council and the Parliament and attended by the representatives of the Commission, who amend the proposal until they reach an agreement. The proposal is sent to the Council and the Parliament for the final reading and vote. They can adopt it as a legislative law or reject it.



Index of Frank's Diaries
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Thu Jun 7th, 2018 at 08:47:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: A Perfect Storm (4.00 / 3)
It's normal, in business...

The analogy is no good. The EU is not a business. The fact that each government can hide behind anonymity means that, not only is it not elected to run the EU, it has no accountability either. This is a direct and potent source of anti-EU sentiment, because each minister can run home and prattle to his national press, without fear of contradiction, about the nasty things Brussels is forcing him to do.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II
by eurogreen on Mon Jun 11th, 2018 at 05:17:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: A Perfect Storm (none / 0)
Where is the anonymity? The process, including any votes is well recorded. Unless a minister can show he was clearly outvoted on an issue, why would you or the parliamentary opposition or the national media in their own country believe them if they try to disavow co-responsibility  - unless they are all playing into a pre-existing narrative about "anonymous bureaucrats in Brussels" wielding all the power when in fact the decisions are made by ministers?

Index of Frank's Diaries
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Mon Jun 11th, 2018 at 07:54:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: A Perfect Storm (none / 0)
The process, including any votes is well recorded.

Ah. Silly me. Can you point me to the page where I can find the minutes of recent Council meetings? Can't seem to find it.

unless they are all playing into a pre-existing narrative about "anonymous bureaucrats in Brussels" wielding all the power when in fact the decisions are made by ministers?

By gum, I think you've cracked it < /irony>

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Tue Jun 12th, 2018 at 01:32:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: A Perfect Storm (none / 0)
Oh I feel a bit better now : it seems Emily O'Reilly made the same silly mistake as me :

On 13 February 2018, the European Ombudsman, Emily O'Reilly, published her recommendations in a case regarding the (lack of) transparency at the Council of the European Union by failing to record and make publicly available the positions of the different EU Member States during negotiations on legislative proposals.


It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II
by eurogreen on Tue Jun 12th, 2018 at 01:42:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: A Perfect Storm (none / 0)
Yes, we've had discussion several times before. Council acting as legislature in secret bad.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jun 12th, 2018 at 01:51:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: A Perfect Storm (none / 1)
How is that antidemocratic?

Subsidiarity. National governments have a democratic mandate to govern their respective countries. They are not elected to govern Europe. We designate MEPs for this; they have little institutional power. The EU institutions are, by design, opaque and undemocratic in their functioning. I thought that this was generally acknowleged here, but I haven't been around much lately.

In the same vein, if a national government dismisses elected local governments and appoints prefects or governors to replace them, this is antidemocratic too, for the same reason : usurping legitimate democratic control.

This is definitely a mindset thing. If you don't conceive of the EU as a genuine entity with its own sovereignty, then an arrangement where it is governed by a syndicate of stakeholders (excluding the actual citizens) may seem appropriate. I'm frankly a bit puzzled that this mindset has such currency here.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Mon Jun 11th, 2018 at 05:03:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: A Perfect Storm (none / 1)
"arrangement where [EU gov] is governed by a syndicate of stakeholders": res ipsa loquitor.

Principles of subsidarity like sovereignty (a concept that is, in my opinion, not well understood despite claims to the contrary at any political division of "nation-state") recurs here in discussion of secession politics, EU budget, immigration, transnational listings, regulatory and "cohesion" franchise operations, and so forth. Both ideals are always in the background of currency and debt debates. EU is usually in the foreground of inter-state conflicts, paradoxically. Consider for example lurid coverage of the latest sovereigns' opposition to Don Brussels.

Nine countries unite against EU export controls on surveillance software

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Mon Jun 11th, 2018 at 06:39:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: A Perfect Storm (none / 0)
"They are not elected to govern Europe. We designate MEPs for this; "

We elect MEP's to a Parliament everyone knows has little power. We elect Governments to represent the national interest at home and abroad and particularly in the various ministerial Councils of which they are members. Do I don't get why you say "They are not elected to govern Europe", that is a very large part of their job.

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Mon Jun 11th, 2018 at 08:28:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: A Perfect Storm (4.00 / 2)
We elect MEP's to a Parliament everyone knows has little power.

Is it possible that this is feeding the strong and growing sense of helplessness and cynicism of EU citizens towards the whole concept of the EU?

No, I guess not eh?

Our governments are not elected to govern Europe (FACT), and yet that is a very large part of their job.

I guess that isn't a problem either. In fact, the EU isn't falling apart at all.


It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Tue Jun 12th, 2018 at 01:37:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: A Perfect Storm (none / 0)
It has little power because the democratically elected government of the the member states like it that way. I assume you have a proposal for democratically overriding those governments?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jun 12th, 2018 at 01:52:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: A Perfect Storm (none / 1)
You're being a shill here aren't you? Thanks...

Constitutional Assembly

The people of Europe have a right to consider the union's future and a duty to transform Europe (by 2025) into a full-fledged democracy with a sovereign Parliament respecting national self-determination and sharing power with national Parliaments, regional assemblies and municipal councils. To do this, an Assembly of their representatives must be convened. DiEM25 will promote a Constitutional Assembly consisting of representatives elected on trans-national tickets. Today, when universities apply to Brussels for research funding, they must form alliances across nations. Similarly, election to the Constitutional Assembly should require tickets featuring candidates from a majority of European countries. The resulting Constitutional Assembly will be empowered to decide on a future democratic constitution that will replace all existing European Treaties within a decade.



It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II
by eurogreen on Tue Jun 12th, 2018 at 01:59:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: A Perfect Storm (none / 0)
But on the other hand, if the consensus here is that the EU is just an overblown coal and steel board, which neither has nor should have any sovereignty or democratic legitimacy...  
Just send me a tweet, and I'll go about my business.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II
by eurogreen on Tue Jun 12th, 2018 at 02:02:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: A Perfect Storm (4.00 / 2)
"Our governments are not elected to govern Europe"

OK, after a bit of thought, this probably plays differently in the smaller countries, which are by necessity more outward-looking. Perhaps people actually vote in their national elections taking into account the positions of the various parties with respect to EU competencies.

In France, this is also true, but only in the sense that the "government" parties of centre-left and centre-right are identified as pro-EU (pro-status quo for those with a nuanced view), and indistinguishable on EU affairs. This view tends to increase the vote for anti-establishment, anti-EU parties outside this concensus. No actual EU competency or policy area is given consideration in electoral campaigns.

This seems to be the case in Italy also. The centre-left and centre-right have been swept aside, in large part because they were seen as Tweedledum and Tweedledee sell-outs who surrendered to EU tyranny.

But apart from that, EU democracy works just fine (oh here I go again)

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Tue Jun 12th, 2018 at 03:42:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: A Perfect Storm (4.00 / 2)
Apologies to all for sarcastic tone. I try to stay away from Twitter when I'm feeling irritable. Looks like I came here instead. Cheers.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II
by eurogreen on Tue Jun 12th, 2018 at 02:32:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: A Perfect Storm (4.00 / 2)
You have a perfectly legitimate and widely held (and perhaps growing) point of view which I thank you for sharing here. In some respects it is reminiscent of views also held by Brexiteers who like to contrast unaccountable EU bureaucracy with accountable democratic national government.

I like to push back on that view lest it become an unchallenged consensus here as elsewhere. While no one can claim the EU or EZ is perfect in every respect I'm not convinced it is much worse than most national bureaucracies despite being an order of magnitude more complex. This makes it more difficult to reduce to the simplistic slogans you see on battle buses in national general election campaigns.

You don't have to be a disciple of the Cambridge Analyitica school of politics to realise that elections are generally not fought or won on the minutiae of politics such as the minutes of cabinet or Council meetings even if these were published.

In Ireland, Cabinet meeting minutes aren't published for 30 years, members are bound by cabinet confidentiality, and all must take collective responsibility for decisions taken whether they agreed with them or not. How is this better than how Council meetings are conducted?

If those minutes became immediately publicly available, I suspect the real meetings would take place informally beforehand and cabinet meetings would become simply formalised rubber stamping exercises.

Politicians will always try to resile from unpopular decisions by giving briefings to journalists that they opposed them privately and that they were driven by so-and-so. Briefing against political opponents is a national sport.

If your national media is stupid enough (or self-interested enough) to be taken in by this guff you deserve all you get. And I can assure you the situation is much worse in large hierarchical private businesses.

So forgive me if I am a bit blasé about the whole "undemocratic EU" narrative. Of course I support Emily O'Reilly's concerns, but do I think it would change things much if Council meetings issued published minutes? NO. Most voters would prefer to watch paint dry.

And neither am I a fan of a lot of direct democracy on very complex issues - that is why we elect parliamentarians and appoint specialists and experts to our civil service. I quite like the Irish system of having referenda on major issues of principle as contained in the Constitution, or on the ratification of EU Treaties which pool further sovereignty at EU level.  But that is about as far as most people want to be involved.

The notion that you can have a lot direct participation by citizens in the governance of a Union of 27 states and 500 million people seems to me to be particularly fanciful. That is just a charter for commercially financed lobby groups and religious fanatics to gain an influence far in excess of what their actuals numbers or contribution to the public good warrants.

It takes a great deal of specialist expertise and sophisticated structures with many levels of decision making to manage very large and hugely complex systems. We elect, select and appoint hopefully some of our best qualified people to these roles and deserve all the turmoil we get when we fail to do so.

Spare me from the authoritarian simpletons who think they know best on every subject and who believe the world would be a better place if everyone were forced to do what they told them to do. If you elect and appoint the Boris Johnson's and Micheal Gove's of this world to the highest offices in the land you deserve all you get.

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Tue Jun 12th, 2018 at 05:04:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: A Perfect Storm (none / 0)
If your national media is stupid enough (or self-interested enough) to be taken in by this guff you deserve all you get.

I don't know who own the media in Ireland. In France, they are almost all owned by half a dozen billionaires. Do we really deserve them?

Most voters would prefer to watch paint dry.

You're right, Frank. Ignorance is bliss. The EU business secrets directive is wonderful. Whistleblowers should be locked up, since they were not smart enough to mind their own business. The "Great and Good" in Europe are to be trusted.

The EU status quo is working so well, why rock the boat?

And turning me into an authoritarian populist is both clever and funny. Did you bother to check out the DiEM25 manifesto I linked? Are we indeed authoritarian simpletons?

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Tue Jun 12th, 2018 at 08:12:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: A Perfect Storm (none / 0)
I think you know I wsn't referring to you as an authoritarian simpleton. If I have to spell it out, I suppose Trump voters would be a good approximation.

If media ownership in France is an issue, that is a national competency. Please don't blame the EU.

I'm not saying the status quo is wonderful. Just that we should aim at the right targets. Blaming the EU for national favours is the Brexiteer trick.

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Tue Jun 12th, 2018 at 09:00:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: A Perfect Storm (none / 0)
I think you know I wsn't referring to you as an authoritarian simpleton.

I swear I had no idea. If you are saying that it was a strawman with no relevance to anything I have written in the thread, I suppose I can consider that as an apology.

If media ownership in France is an issue, that is a national competency. Please don't blame the EU.

I never blamed the EU for it. On the other hand, it will only be resolved, if ever, on a European level. Oligarchs don't cede that sort of control easily. That will be a civilizational progress.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Tue Jun 12th, 2018 at 11:17:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: A Perfect Storm (none / 0)
It was directed at common critiques of the EU's lack of accountability - particularly as articulated by Brexiteers, but perhaps best personified by Trump supporters in other contexts: "just because a person hasn't taken the trouble to understand the EU (or any complex matter) doesn't mean its all wrong..."

One of the reasons I strongly support the EU is that I don't see individual countries and especially smaller countries like Ireland having sufficient bargaining power to really take on the Oligarchs, media moguls and global corporations. However that requires transferring even more competencies to the EU, and also probably explains why so many Oligarchs are anti-EU even though their business models often require the existence of the Single market.

For years Michael O'Leary of Ryanair was a staunch critic of the EU even though Ryanair only became possible with the establishment of Blue Skies and regulation of state aids for National carriers etc. He had a sudden conversion to being somewhat pro-EU when he realised Brexit put his business model at risk. Of course he will still oppose EU regulation/promotion of consumer and employee rights and indirect state aids to his airline, but at least the EU has the clout to take him on on those issues.

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Tue Jun 12th, 2018 at 11:40:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: A Perfect Storm (none / 0)
OK that's a lot clearer : you are unambiguously FOR the existing technocratic lobby-captured structure, and in favour of transferring more competencies into that opaque magma, and AGAINST any attempt to make it more transparent or bring any degree of real democratic accountability to bear. To the extent that you assimilate any attempt at positive reform with the wreckers -- Farage, Trump, Salvini etc.

That existing model has brought the EU to the edge of implosion. The fallacy that the Council represents the interests of the EU -- and that it is democratic -- ought to be easy to see through.

With nationalism back in style, we need an empowered Parliament. Even with a right wing majority, the fact that matters are debated transparently, with all the arguments on the table, means that even the right wingers are more progressive than their respective governments.

The 2019 elections are our last chance to salvage the EU. It's a long shot, and after that I shall cultivate my garden.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Wed Jun 13th, 2018 at 08:29:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: A Perfect Storm (none / 0)
I suspect you see everything EU through the prism of Brexit, hence you feel obliged to defend the status quo. Actually I don't think the sort of reforms I am advocating would have made any difference to the Brexit referendum, because it was never about democracy, transparency, accountability etc (was it?)

But I see the EU through the prism of what's going on on the Continent, and it's ugly. German-imposed austerity and wealth confiscation by capital has driven angry people to back xenopobic nationalist populists. The institutions of the EU (not counting the Council) are mostly well-meaning but, by design, incapable of making a difference, and largely captured by industry lobbyists (interesting that you see my views as enabling them, not sure where you got that from)

A movement to reform those institutions, to give them democratic legitimacy, tax-raising powers, the means of exercising the delegated sovereignty which is illegitimatele exercised by the Council, seems to me to be the only way forward. It's a long shot, but I don't see any other way to save the EU.

If you choose to conflate this with the Farages and Johnsons of this world, then (and I say this with a great deal of respect, Frank, yes, even with love) you can fuck off.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Tue Jun 12th, 2018 at 08:43:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: A Perfect Storm (none / 0)
< wipes tears >
I sympathize, truly, and wonder how you imagine EU/EP could assert tax authority without further alienating disaffected nationals? I realize, that each member is already tied to "paid in" capital to ECB operations and, no less risky, proportionate share of each 7-year budget/re-distributions. To the point: Is the Sarcozy/Hollande/Macron/ path through joint bonds prudent and necessary to this end? Or are you leaning to transnational listing structure to sharpen constituents' focus on democratic EU gov representation?

iirc, there was broad-but-shallow resistance to political group restructure when Macron raise the issue last year.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Tue Jun 12th, 2018 at 09:15:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: A Perfect Storm (none / 0)
I hasten to ad, I am curious to learn of other strategies.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Tue Jun 12th, 2018 at 09:18:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: A Perfect Storm (none / 0)
I suspect the only thing you have in common with the Farage's of this world is a dislike of much of what the EU now is. But while he seeks to destroy the EU, you seek to reform it.

Actually if you do see the EU through the prism of Brexit, then much of what is alleged about the EU (yes, even the status quo) is false, and those criticisms which are true are often no more true of the EU than they are of the UK, except perhaps in the complexities of scale. So relatively speaking, I would see the EU as an advance on what I suspect the UK will become post Brexit. Even now, I find it difficult to take lectures on democratic accountability from a country with the only entirely unelected House of Parliament in the EU and a civil service famous for it's de facto but unaccountable power.

But of course as you say that is not the only prism through which the EU can be critiqued. One of the benefits of getting Brexit over and done with will be that we can then focus more on how the EU needs to be reformed. The UK as a member would have opposed many of the reforms I suspect you support, so removing the UK from the equation would be a net positive. I haven't got much involved with DiEM25 for reasons of time. A diary on their reform agenda for the EU and EZ would be good!

Criticisms of the design flaws in the ECB and Euro architecture have been reasonably well aired here, but your particular target seems to be the Council which is made up of elected heads of government of the member states. It is therefore the institution most concerned with protecting the national interests of the member states. Clearly if your objective is to develop the EU as a supra national entity, other institutions (particularly the parliament) need to be strengthened to counter balance its influence. But what are your particular criticisms of the Council apart from the lack of transparency in the decision making process also common in national cabinets?

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Tue Jun 12th, 2018 at 09:39:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: A Perfect Storm (none / 0)
A diary on their [DiEM25] reform agenda for the EU and EZ would be good!

Hear, hear!

by Bernard (bernard) on Wed Jun 13th, 2018 at 06:42:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: A Perfect Storm (none / 0)
Sure. I've got a backlog of stuff to write for DiEM, but it might help to focus the mind.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II
by eurogreen on Thu Jun 14th, 2018 at 04:30:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

A Perfect Storm | 157 comments (157 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)
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