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We live in the post-truth world now, where the corporate media are happy to boost the signal of rabble rousing right wing politicians because it suits the agenda of the corporate owners.

Boris Johnston has already learned that policy consequences are irrelevant to his career : He has been a serial disaster in every political post he's held, wastng hundreds of millions of pounds on vanity projects that were simply never going to work.

Yet each and every one has boosted his presence in the media. Even yesterday he made an inflammatory and overtly racist speech that, in previous years, would have ensured his political oblivion. Now, it simply projects him onto the front pages, the only bad news is no news now.

Boris made his career writing lies about the EU in the Telegraph and they have realised there are no downsides to printing lies about the EU now. The onlypeople who care are Remainers and we no longer matter in any way whatsoever. A 52% mandate for a Constutional change that will weaken this country for generations means the right wing no longer have to care; on 30th March 2019 they ca do what they like and nobody can stop them.


keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Aug 7th, 2018 at 06:59:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And why is Corbyn going along with this? Does he not see the dangers? Or is he simply powerless to do anything about it now?

Index of Frank's Diaries
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Tue Aug 7th, 2018 at 08:58:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A belief that a glorious sovereign socialist utopia will rise from the ashes is the kindest interpretation I can put on his actions. Which means he's as deluded as the rest of the Brexiteers.

Possibly "Never interrupt an enemy when they're making a mistake", but I'm not sure that makes sense when they're burning down the house you both live in.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Aug 7th, 2018 at 09:07:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There is something of that, although a lot less than a lot of people infer.

Mostly I see a somewhat naive belief that a democratic vote, however ill-informed and mistaken, once taken, cannot readily be put aside or challenged. There would have to be a notable shift in public mood for him to consider suggesting that we should perhaps forget about the whole sorry business.

As yet, that shift in public mood simply hasn't happened. You can get a 60/40 majority that we might vote on the final deal, but even that wouldn't be enough to actually get a vote cos the brexiteer ultras are still in control of all the levers of government and are determined to drive us over the cliffs into the unregulated low wage seas of Free-Market serfdom.

It would require an unholy alliance of MPs in the Commons to thwart this madness, but that would probably tear an irreparable hole in the fabric of the British Constitutional arrangement; to the extent I'm not sure it would be an improvement.

5 years after brexit I'm quite sure you'd get 95% vote in favour of returning. But there would first be a small and ruinous civil war to rid ourselves of the newly emergent alt-right who need to be put down again after 75 years. I'm rather hoping this would also be after several leading figures in the Tory party were publicly and deservedly burned at the stake for aiding and abetting.

I'm really not looking forward to what comes next.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Aug 7th, 2018 at 12:48:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This is rather more than the ignorance of its constituents (or "subjects") the fly in the milk of "representational democracy" as you know it, isn't it? So not by coincidence constituents of Madame May's "government" are purportedly only members of parliament, themselves slavishly attentive to winds of "wealth building" around an ornamental monarchy.

What else is this "Constitutional arrangement" of Britain?

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Tue Aug 7th, 2018 at 01:42:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What's so wrong with a majority of MP's from various parties who believe Brexit will be  a disaster voting down a government they believe is pursuing a very poor  deal or no deal Brexit? Is that not what "British" democracy in a Sovereign parliament is all about? Referendums, on the other hand, in the UK as a whole are a rarely used advisory device to try and overcome divisions within whatever party is currently in power.

I know Brits like to ridicule the Irish for having two referenda on a similar issue if the first result is very divisive, but what makes the second result any less valid than the first? We changed our minds on a couple of EU Treaties when apathy and a lot of misinformation led to very low polls the first time around and those results were over-turned in much higher turn-out polls subsequently.

We also changed our minds on Abortion between 1983 and 2018. What's so wrong with that? Electorates regularly change their minds on issues or voting preferences. Is that not the essence of a vibrant democracy? So I don't get this totally fatalistic acceptance of a result (which will have severe and long lasting consequences) as if it can never be changed.

I also get it that not many people have changed their minds. However the turn-out in a second referendum could be completely different, a lot more facts will be in evidence when people come to vote, and people will be voting for or against a very specific deal rather than on a very vaguely defined and poorly understood proposition.

Frankly, I think Corbyn has run out of excuses if he ever had any.

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Tue Aug 7th, 2018 at 02:22:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think the MPs can only vote down a Government, I'm not sure they can force a PM to do its bidding.

Y'see, if a Government is defeated on a major policy issue, then the immediate response is that there is a vote of No Confidence. However, as many Tory Remain MPs consider their chances of being re-elected pretty slim, they would, in effect, be voting to lose their jobs. So they wouldn't do it.

Even if the Government won a NC vote, then if the original issue were re-voted, how would the Tory remainers. To vote against the govt would be wasting parliamentary time. To vote with it would be to signal their own defeat.

Politics is a dirty game and the Tory Remainers have few places of safety; forcing the issue is not one of them.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Aug 7th, 2018 at 02:38:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Similarly, short of assassination(s), the US Constitution grants the US Congress and the polity it is believed to represent --itself denied national referenda-- only impeachment verdict rendered by the chambers' members. And even this they are incapable of agreement on what conduct by a head of state is socially unacceptable, as is the custom.

Among pirates.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Wed Aug 8th, 2018 at 12:51:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Spain recently had a change of government majority without a parliamentary election.

Just throwing this in the mix. I have no idea how that would work. It would seem to require a certain number of Tory MPs pledging not to vote against a Labour government.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Wed Aug 8th, 2018 at 03:36:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Lots of countries has "national unity" governments in times of war or emergency generally made up of the major parties combining to form a government with a very large majority, and sometimes only a token opposition. The all-party coalitions of Herbert Henry Asquith and David Lloyd George in the First World War and of Winston Churchill in the Second World War were sometimes referred to as National Governments.

So if there is an anti-no-deal Brexit majority in Parliament, they could prevent that outcome and even takes the reins of government themselves - presumably under a leader acceptable to all factions - i.e not Johnson or Corbyn.

But I can't see it happening. Party allegiances are too strong, and there is no obvious alternate leader.

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Fri Aug 10th, 2018 at 05:17:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, that's not what happened in Spain. No war, no emergency. The government fell because it failed a confidence vote, and the opposition cobbled together a confidence-and-supply majority which contains a couple of right-wing parties (albeit separatist).

I'm not saying it will happen in the UK, but it's not unthinkable in terms of parliamentary democracy.

However we are in fact talking about a national emergency : a government paralysed by warring factions which is sleepwalking towards disaster. Just bringing down the government and calling new elections would not be enough, because of the delay. An emergency "technical" government would be required, to negotiate a halt to Brexit.

But I suppose you're right : there are not enough Tories with the requisite intestinal fortitude.

Unless... Boris's populist moves may make the continued existence of the Conservative party untenable, and facilitate the sort of rebellion required?

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Mon Aug 13th, 2018 at 08:58:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There's nothing wrong with it. It's just one of the Stock Leaver Talking Points: "We won the vote so we're leaving, and no you don't get another vote even though Leave have been lambasted and fined by the Electoral Commission and referred to the police - and they've also parted ways with their defence lawyers who were appealing the fine, which is not suspicious at all, honest."

This has always been a stitch up. Always.

God only knows what the end game is, but it's unlikely to be fun to live through - which is why I left for sunnier climes, and why I'm encouraging everyone I know to do the same.

Considering there are articles in the Serious Papers about shortages of food and medicines, the only rational action at this point is to GTFO.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Aug 7th, 2018 at 03:49:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Missed that. Where are you based now?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Aug 7th, 2018 at 03:52:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You can't get much sunnier that Britain these days.... I'm in London right now, making my last visit before the Continent is cut off, and I'm getting a bit tired of this continuous sunshine.
by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Tue Aug 7th, 2018 at 03:58:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
we're all sick of it, but according to the weather, ths is the last day of it.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Aug 7th, 2018 at 04:57:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
wish I could, but I simply cannot do so right now. I think I'm trapped here for the foreseeable

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Aug 7th, 2018 at 04:58:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What's so wrong with a majority of MP's from various parties who believe Brexit will be  a disaster voting down a government they believe is pursuing a very poor  deal or no deal Brexit?

In general, nothing. In the context of a referendum saying that the government should do the stupid thing, and a widespread (and correct) view that the political establishment doesn't care for the views of the peasantry, its an invitation for political chaos and constitutional crisis. At best, you get an even greater loss of faith in the UK's already shaky democracy. At worst, you get MPs dangling from lampposts (and they've already had one MP murdered over this).

OTOH, given the expected consequences of Brexit (food shortages, civil disorder, and consequent political instability), they really have no good choices here.

by IdiotSavant on Wed Aug 8th, 2018 at 02:57:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If Corbyn started to advocate for cancelling Brexit half his MPs would discover their inner swivel eyed Brexit loon. After all, the first thing they did once it was clear that the UK's trade relations with the rest of the world were on fire was the chicken coup. All those fluffy moderates had the chance to dominate the parties position on Brexit, since they controlled most of the apparatus and the membership mostly loath it, but they decided to rather use it to get rid of Corbyn.

Also the UK's MMT faction argues that Labour's economic policy is dominated by pretty bad advice. I wouldn't be surprised if the thinking on the complexities of Brexit is also quite bad. Economics 101 would lead you to expect that the cratering of the Pound would lead to an improvement of the terms of trade. However, Economics 101 is worth shit all. I think Corbyn actually brought that up in a recent speech, the one that was shellacked by the Free Press™ for "touting the benefits of Brexit", where he correctly noted that there were none to be observed, as of now.
Investing too much hope in exchange rate adjustments is not a good gamble to take and I hope they keep an open mind. Though to be fair, it might be the only one available.

by generic on Wed Aug 8th, 2018 at 08:33:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
it's certainly true that there seems to be little thinking about policy going on within the inner circle.

I think the problem is that Corbyn's status as leader of the party has been under constant attack since the moment he won, with attempts to overthrow him being announced almost every 6 months (a new one seems to be underway now according to various sources).

This has led to a seige mentality which has made it resistant to ideas beyond mere survival. Which is a shame cos they will really need an awful lot of help to turn the country around when they take power.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Aug 8th, 2018 at 12:22:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
yes, well, it seems to me that the hedge is in the joint letter of support for the EU Blocking Statute. So Tory gov has that sop going for it when proper negotiation of the "future relationship" begins. After 31 Dec 2020.

I shall hope for the best --that Tory gov does not renege again-- and prepare for the worst.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Wed Aug 8th, 2018 at 12:42:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There's a hit piece on Corbyn in Politico. Is it the coup season in the UK?
by Bernard on Wed Aug 8th, 2018 at 07:03:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
wtf

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Wed Aug 8th, 2018 at 07:14:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
christ on a bike but that is bad. Recycling every BS attack that Fleet St and the BBC have mounted in the last 2 years plus a few I'd not heard before.

The trouble that most of these people have is that they protest too much, too often. It imly becomes ridiculous. Like the current anti-semitism thing; if they'd kept it low level and fact-based (yes there is some anti-semitism in the party and has been indulged/ignored for far too long) then they might have made a fist of it.

But by going completely over the top with a full 24/7 media onslaught throwing every crappy thing they can invent, they simply end up looking idiotic.

And so here we are again. It hasn't worked before and it won't work now

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Aug 8th, 2018 at 08:40:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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