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What's so wrong with a majority of MP's from various parties who believe Brexit will be  a disaster voting down a government they believe is pursuing a very poor  deal or no deal Brexit? Is that not what "British" democracy in a Sovereign parliament is all about? Referendums, on the other hand, in the UK as a whole are a rarely used advisory device to try and overcome divisions within whatever party is currently in power.

I know Brits like to ridicule the Irish for having two referenda on a similar issue if the first result is very divisive, but what makes the second result any less valid than the first? We changed our minds on a couple of EU Treaties when apathy and a lot of misinformation led to very low polls the first time around and those results were over-turned in much higher turn-out polls subsequently.

We also changed our minds on Abortion between 1983 and 2018. What's so wrong with that? Electorates regularly change their minds on issues or voting preferences. Is that not the essence of a vibrant democracy? So I don't get this totally fatalistic acceptance of a result (which will have severe and long lasting consequences) as if it can never be changed.

I also get it that not many people have changed their minds. However the turn-out in a second referendum could be completely different, a lot more facts will be in evidence when people come to vote, and people will be voting for or against a very specific deal rather than on a very vaguely defined and poorly understood proposition.

Frankly, I think Corbyn has run out of excuses if he ever had any.

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Tue Aug 7th, 2018 at 02:22:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think the MPs can only vote down a Government, I'm not sure they can force a PM to do its bidding.

Y'see, if a Government is defeated on a major policy issue, then the immediate response is that there is a vote of No Confidence. However, as many Tory Remain MPs consider their chances of being re-elected pretty slim, they would, in effect, be voting to lose their jobs. So they wouldn't do it.

Even if the Government won a NC vote, then if the original issue were re-voted, how would the Tory remainers. To vote against the govt would be wasting parliamentary time. To vote with it would be to signal their own defeat.

Politics is a dirty game and the Tory Remainers have few places of safety; forcing the issue is not one of them.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Aug 7th, 2018 at 02:38:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Similarly, short of assassination(s), the US Constitution grants the US Congress and the polity it is believed to represent --itself denied national referenda-- only impeachment verdict rendered by the chambers' members. And even this they are incapable of agreement on what conduct by a head of state is socially unacceptable, as is the custom.

Among pirates.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Wed Aug 8th, 2018 at 12:51:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Spain recently had a change of government majority without a parliamentary election.

Just throwing this in the mix. I have no idea how that would work. It would seem to require a certain number of Tory MPs pledging not to vote against a Labour government.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Wed Aug 8th, 2018 at 03:36:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Lots of countries has "national unity" governments in times of war or emergency generally made up of the major parties combining to form a government with a very large majority, and sometimes only a token opposition. The all-party coalitions of Herbert Henry Asquith and David Lloyd George in the First World War and of Winston Churchill in the Second World War were sometimes referred to as National Governments.

So if there is an anti-no-deal Brexit majority in Parliament, they could prevent that outcome and even takes the reins of government themselves - presumably under a leader acceptable to all factions - i.e not Johnson or Corbyn.

But I can't see it happening. Party allegiances are too strong, and there is no obvious alternate leader.

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Fri Aug 10th, 2018 at 05:17:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, that's not what happened in Spain. No war, no emergency. The government fell because it failed a confidence vote, and the opposition cobbled together a confidence-and-supply majority which contains a couple of right-wing parties (albeit separatist).

I'm not saying it will happen in the UK, but it's not unthinkable in terms of parliamentary democracy.

However we are in fact talking about a national emergency : a government paralysed by warring factions which is sleepwalking towards disaster. Just bringing down the government and calling new elections would not be enough, because of the delay. An emergency "technical" government would be required, to negotiate a halt to Brexit.

But I suppose you're right : there are not enough Tories with the requisite intestinal fortitude.

Unless... Boris's populist moves may make the continued existence of the Conservative party untenable, and facilitate the sort of rebellion required?

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Mon Aug 13th, 2018 at 08:58:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There's nothing wrong with it. It's just one of the Stock Leaver Talking Points: "We won the vote so we're leaving, and no you don't get another vote even though Leave have been lambasted and fined by the Electoral Commission and referred to the police - and they've also parted ways with their defence lawyers who were appealing the fine, which is not suspicious at all, honest."

This has always been a stitch up. Always.

God only knows what the end game is, but it's unlikely to be fun to live through - which is why I left for sunnier climes, and why I'm encouraging everyone I know to do the same.

Considering there are articles in the Serious Papers about shortages of food and medicines, the only rational action at this point is to GTFO.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Aug 7th, 2018 at 03:49:21 PM EST
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Missed that. Where are you based now?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Aug 7th, 2018 at 03:52:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You can't get much sunnier that Britain these days.... I'm in London right now, making my last visit before the Continent is cut off, and I'm getting a bit tired of this continuous sunshine.
by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Tue Aug 7th, 2018 at 03:58:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
we're all sick of it, but according to the weather, ths is the last day of it.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Aug 7th, 2018 at 04:57:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
wish I could, but I simply cannot do so right now. I think I'm trapped here for the foreseeable

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Aug 7th, 2018 at 04:58:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What's so wrong with a majority of MP's from various parties who believe Brexit will be  a disaster voting down a government they believe is pursuing a very poor  deal or no deal Brexit?

In general, nothing. In the context of a referendum saying that the government should do the stupid thing, and a widespread (and correct) view that the political establishment doesn't care for the views of the peasantry, its an invitation for political chaos and constitutional crisis. At best, you get an even greater loss of faith in the UK's already shaky democracy. At worst, you get MPs dangling from lampposts (and they've already had one MP murdered over this).

OTOH, given the expected consequences of Brexit (food shortages, civil disorder, and consequent political instability), they really have no good choices here.

by IdiotSavant on Wed Aug 8th, 2018 at 02:57:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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