Welcome to European Tribune. It's gone a bit quiet around here these days, but it's still going.
"It was about peace and stability in Ireland, and therefore essentially non-negotiable."

Seems to me the whole problem with Brexit is that there is a set of incompatible "non-negotiable" red lines. Why is this one more non-negotiable than the others?

by asdf on Sat Jan 19th, 2019 at 03:16:29 AM EST
All parties involved agree on the essentials GFA except for 10 seats DUP. Should be an easy choice. It's not about the border... the 1922 treaty apparently still is an open wound.

"Ireland can correct their mistake and join the Union." Or NI should choose to reunite w its neighbour.

Seems with the rise of nationalism old conflicts resurface and done over looking for a different result. See the White Supremacist of the Trumpistas ... Civil Rights and the Great Civil War and legacy of president Abraham Lincoln.

Key words | brothers | battle | bloodshed | society | revolution | blowblack | gdansk |

'Sapere aude'

by Oui (Oui) on Sat Jan 19th, 2019 at 07:06:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Colonization, exploitation, and empire: It has been said that the East India Company is the model for modern transnational corporation. I would go further to postulate the model for modern fascism, given its royal charter from 1600 until their "private governments" rivaled the monarchy. Other Europeans were not so systematic and acquisitive as they in sowing "plantations" (an Elizabethan term like "niggar") wherever they sailed. (Find correspondence at the British National Archive online between Jamestown to Charles I, II, for example) Not even the Dutch who succeeded truly uncouth Portuguese with cannon, rounding the Cape in 1498. They didn't have a patch to practice Roman disciplines for a few centuries like this particular "species" of vitamin D deficient, neandertal- and denisovan-allele bearing hominids did, I think.

Step 1.

The Statutes of Kilkenny in 1366 commanded that "if any English, or Irish living among the English, use the Irish language amongst themselves, contrary to this ordinance, and thereof be attainted, his lands and tenements, if he have any, shall be seized into the hands of his immediate lord ..." This ban on the Irish language was accompanied was accompanied by an anti-miscegenation law.13 A later law required Irishmen to take on English surnames or forfeit property.14

Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat... until 1920 or so.

Step 2. Reward assimilated estate agents such as Irish, Scots, and Welsh.

Step 3. Export religious conflict

and so forth ...

It's gonna take a while for ROW to get over it,

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Sat Jan 19th, 2019 at 10:05:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
from British landmarks! Not even a plaque. This I never knew until Lecture 4. A pretty radical pressage for the present reckoning due Tory gov.

Likewise British America.

< wipes tears >

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Sat Jan 19th, 2019 at 10:24:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Why is this one more non-negotiable than the others?

Unlike other red lines from the UK governments, the Good Friday Agreement is also an international treaty between the governments of United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland, two sovereign countries. The treaty included many interesting things, like the removal of any territorial claims from the UK to the totality of Ireland and from the Republic to NI, the disarming of paramilitaries: essentially, the goal was to bring an end to the only remaining civil war within the EU.

The main effect of the GFA has been to remove pretty much all checks at the Irish border. A no-deal Brexit could change that however, but the Brexiters don't seem to have considered any effect on Ireland, North and South.

by Bernard (bernard) on Sat Jan 19th, 2019 at 07:13:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's all very well having red lines which seek to establish the supremacy of British Law and Courts over the EU, establish the right to negotiate your own trade deals or implement immigration controls incompatible with EU law. These things are arguable policy objectives which may or may not have real economic and social consequences over time, but they are hardly matters of life and death or of the stability of the entire political system. Re-imposing a hard border undermines the peaceful resolution of a civil war North and south, and so is hardly a matter any Irish government is going to accept as negotiable.

In reality, Leo Varadker, and the minority Fine Gael government he leads is the least nationalistic major party and government possible in Ireland. Fine Gael is descended from the faction which supported the Anglo-Irish Treaty of 1922 and accepted the partition of Ireland and the creation of the border as a price they had no option but to pay as the cost of obtaining freedom for the south from the British Empire.

There has always been a lingering sense that the N. Ireland nationalist community were betrayed as the price for independence for the south. Leo Varadker can't afford to be seen as betraying them all over again, failing in his duty to act as joint guarantor of the Good Friday Agreement, and indeed failing to give expression and support to the fact that a majority in N. Ireland voted against Brexit and voted to remain citizens of the EU.

Keeping the border open is therefore an existential issue for the government. Why should the DUP, which received only 28% of the vote in the last Assembly elections be allowed to hold the rest of the country to ransom? Supporting Brexit may have been a legitimate political choice before the referendum. Supporting it after it was decisively rejected by a majority in N. Ireland is a wanton act of political sectarianism calculated to undermine all the improvements in cross-community relations which have occurred since the GFA was ratified by referenda by majorities of 71% in the North and 94% in the south 1998.

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Sun Jan 20th, 2019 at 11:10:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Would you speak in greater detail about factional/legislators' support and opposition to Anglo-Irish Treaty of 1922? This history is quite provocative, given the faint impression I for one have been left in USA that immigrants to north America are entirely responsible for fomenting civil war in Ireland.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Sun Jan 20th, 2019 at 06:31:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The 1922 Anglo Irish Treaty caused a split in what was then Sinn Fein into factions for and against, which later became Fine Gael and Fianna Fail. Some families were divided by this split, but as a generalisation, Fine Gael was made up largely by a bourgeoisie of larger farmers, small businesses, the professions and those who had a stake in maintaining the economic status quo. Fianna Fail, on the other hand, had a slight preponderance of smaller farmers, the landless, jobless, and those with a lesser vested interest in the status quo.

It could be as simple as a split between oldest sons (who inherited the family farm/business, and their siblings who had almost no prospects.

I would not be surprised if a large majority of those who emigrated to the USA during and after the civil war were those with a lesser stake in the status quo, lesser economic prospects, and disillusion with a political establishment who had traded their dream of a largely secular united Ireland with a much lesser 95% Roman Catholic dominated, conservative, repressive, 26 (out of 32) county state.

However I have never seen any data on the political allegiances of those who emigrated to the USA during this period, so this must remain a conjecture.

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Sun Jan 20th, 2019 at 08:57:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Because the pacified Irish border is an innocent bystander in the current clusterfuck, and it it is unconscionable that it should become roadkill in the UK's psychodrama.

The UK populace, and its political class, need to learn that decisions have consequences. That they might be unintended consequences doesn't get them off the hook. If they want to be able to strike new trade agreements -- a stupid idea, but that's their decision, it would seem - they need to do it in a manner that keeps the border open.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Sun Jan 20th, 2019 at 01:26:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Most of the populace no longer wants Brexit, so it's not fair to blame the majority of the British people for the beliefs and actions of a noisy fascist minority.

The anti-Brexit march last year turned out 700,000 people. When Leave try to organise a march or a rally, they're lucky to get hundreds.

The reality is that Brexit is a creation of the UK's insane ruling class and their compliant media, who have been known to manufacture the illusion of consensus against popular sentiment.

While there's some hardcore support, it's neither very active nor very widespread, and not really any larger than equivalent racist movements elsewhere.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sun Jan 20th, 2019 at 02:56:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Most of the populace no longer wants Brexit, so it's not fair to blame the majority of the British people for the beliefs and actions of a noisy fascist minority.

Doesn't look obvious to me: many polls show a majority for Remain, but not by such a wide margin: 12 percentage points at best. We're not talking a 2/3 - 1/3 majority (and for some polls, the gap narrowed recently to 5%). I remember that the polls were predicting a clear Remain majority for the 2016 referendum.

If anything, the British society is still very divided by the issue: it is more than a fascist minority.
Would the present Remain majority survive a second referendum? This would turn into a heated controversy about the establishment respecting the results referendums in the first place...

by Bernard (bernard) on Sun Jan 20th, 2019 at 09:02:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"massacres" of < 10 persons,
"landslides" of < 5% margin,

of experts' conclusory remarks about statistical description of [INSERT DEROGATORY] in lieu of interpersonal communications

trivial evaluation
comparison of hyperbole and repetitive facts to self-criticism (stereotype)

Some people may be relying on the wrong "tools" to identify and achieve mutually beneficial goals.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Sun Jan 20th, 2019 at 11:32:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Depending on what we mean by the word 'most'.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Mon Jan 21st, 2019 at 08:00:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
'most': More than half the people who talk to a typical London-based journalist.
by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Mon Jan 21st, 2019 at 08:22:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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