Top Diaries

Bash him over the head with the royal mace?

by generic on Wed Oct 9th, 2019 at 11:51:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

"What can the Queen do if Johnson refuses to resign if asked?"

These questions keep coming back, for whatever reason.

In the case you present there, the ex-PM has no more power to command any servant of the Crown (Ministers, advisers, civil servants, police, army). No one will obey him. As I've said before, he can hide in the broom cupboard at N° 10 if he wants, but some discreet political policemen will come to take him away.

Unless (as I've said before) the tanks are in the streets on his behalf. Don't forget that the Queen is also C-in-C of the armed forces. Mutiny against the Queen? Not going to happen.

Things are going to slide, slide in all directions
Won't be nothing, nothing you can measure anymore
L. Cohen

by john_evans (john(dot)evans(dot)et(at)gmail(dot)com) on Wed Oct 9th, 2019 at 12:08:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It's "Boris Johnson and his advisers" raising the question, not me. And is he an ex-PM if he has refused to resign? These questions keep coming back because there are no precedents for guidance and no clearly written Constitution to refer to.

Personally I'd love to see BoJo marched out of Buck Palace between two soldiers who have orders to lock him in the Tower, but I doubt that is going to happen either.

In a normal democracy, even raising the possibility of defying the Head of State would be disqualifying for Office, but it seems BoJo and his advisors can think, say, and do what they like without consequences.

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Wed Oct 9th, 2019 at 12:41:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: One will not be amused... (4.00 / 4)

In which case the US, with its written constitution, is not a "normal" democracy either. Last night I heard a French "US expert" explain that, in the end, the whole American constitutional structure worked if the president was a decent person who respected the spirit of the institutions etc, which Trump evidently doesn't. The same can be said of the UK. Could also have been said of Germany before Hitler was elected.

The problem is not with constitutions, it's a matter of a shameless far-right takeover. It's purely political.

Things are going to slide, slide in all directions
Won't be nothing, nothing you can measure anymore
L. Cohen

by john_evans (john(dot)evans(dot)et(at)gmail(dot)com) on Wed Oct 9th, 2019 at 03:29:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

"spirit of the institutions" (none / 1)

of the US are profit seeking and piracy ... pursuant to the letter of laws, enacted by successive sessions of the US Congress.

So.

What annoys Team Trump detractors "at the end of the day" is that they've yet to discover illegal conduct by the president or the creepy, homicidal maniacs--in gov and outsid it-- who defend the authorities vested in the office as earnestly as every.single.administration which preceded his.

except Garfield, McKinley, JFK, and Lincoln. Possibly Harding.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Wed Oct 9th, 2019 at 04:27:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The problem with the US Constitution is that its almost impossible to change it, so it hasn't been amended as problems became apparent. The last successful amendment was in 1992, and it took 202 years for it to be passed. An amendment prohibiting child labour, for instance, has been pending since 1924, with no sign of it being passed... It is hardly surprising that a document, largely the product of 18th. century thinking, is no longer fit for purpose.

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Wed Oct 9th, 2019 at 10:22:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No, the US problem is the same as the UK: voters trend to the right and the ultra-right takes over on a populist ticket. Same things threatens to happen in France, which has a much more recent (and amendable) written constitution.

It's political in the broad sense.

Things are going to slide, slide in all directions
Won't be nothing, nothing you can measure anymore
L. Cohen

by john_evans (john(dot)evans(dot)et(at)gmail(dot)com) on Thu Oct 10th, 2019 at 07:15:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I think you mistake current political trends for a universal principle of politics. Yes, countries have their populist right wing periods, but they can also have good and constructive leadership and progressive periods.

The fact that the Catholic Church and conservative allies managed to insert an outright ban on abortion into the Irish Constitution in 1983 doesn't mean that it could never be reversed, because the democratic processes were there to do just that.

Increasing economic inequality has been driving political polarisation in most "western" countries with the right in the ascendant. It need not, and won't always be that way...

I also agree a written constitution is no panacea for other ills, but it places the ownership of a state in the hands of the people rather than in the hands of an elite of lawyers, politicians, royalists and murky background money.

In time the people can learn to exercise their ownership wisely: the problem with the UK is that the constitution and FPTP electoral system makes politics an irrelevance for most people, and so their ignorance of what is really going on becomes profound.

People don't engage with what they cannot control. In this case the EU became the fall-guy, when the real problems are much closer to home.

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Thu Oct 10th, 2019 at 11:52:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The Queen does have at her disposal the Queen's Guards. She could order them to seize Johnson and sequester him in one of the basement rooms of Buckingham Palace. That might be more practical than sending him to the Tower, although, in the Tower, Johnson could be confined to the room used for Sir Thomas Moore, but that might interfere with the tourist trade unless he was made the main attraction. I believe the Yeoman Warders are still part of the royal household guard.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed Oct 9th, 2019 at 03:46:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Oh horror ... the thought ... Boris behind bars in the dungeon!

'Sapere aude'

by Oui (Oui) on Wed Oct 9th, 2019 at 04:49:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

She has more than the Queens guard, she is the ultimate commander of all military forces in the UK. There is absolutely no question about the chain of command.

I imagine that MI5 & MI6 would know where their bread is buttered as well, and they know whre the skeletons are buried and how many children TWBJ really has.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Oct 9th, 2019 at 08:04:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Dead right.

All of which Johnson knows full well. He'll bluster until it gets dangerous for his big fat arse, and then he'll stop.

Things are going to slide, slide in all directions
Won't be nothing, nothing you can measure anymore
L. Cohen

by john_evans (john(dot)evans(dot)et(at)gmail(dot)com) on Thu Oct 10th, 2019 at 07:18:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Why Do People Follow Bad Leaders?

Maybe.

Considering that we have an outbreak of copycat "big men" all over the planet, all playing the same games, a happy ending is not a given.

And considering the rhetoric around the Supreme Court judgement and the Benn Act, I think Johnson genuinely seems himself as Emperor-in-Waiting - like Trump, but with added classical references, even more drugs, and less dementia.

The fact that both are seriously disordered individuals is neither here nor there.

Realistically, they have no interest in precedent, morality, convention, or fair dealing. As far they're concerned they're in power, we're not. That's all anyone needs to know.

If a constitution is founded on the principle that leaders act with at least a minimum of integrity and force is never necessary, you have a problem if it becomes obvious that force has to be applied - because you're in uncharted territory, having to make difficult decisions about who is qualified/required to apply the force, under what circumstances, and with what limits.

And if there are back-channel conversations where your Emperor-in-Waiting is making threats of force of his own, or using bribes to override the usual constitution limits, or blackmail, or some other chicanery, your problem becomes far more serious.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Oct 10th, 2019 at 11:45:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: One will not be amused... (4.00 / 4)

If a constitution is founded on the principle that leaders act with at least a minimum of integrity and force is never necessary,
I mean, the Americans thought that the other branches of government would be jealous of their power. Which was blatantly silly even then, since the people involved were Senators second and owners of slave plantations first.

by generic on Thu Oct 10th, 2019 at 12:50:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: One will not be amused... (4.00 / 2)

The question at the top of this thread was: if the Queen sacks Johnson and he refuses to go, what happens? My response is that he can only get away with that if he has the army with him. Not impossible, but imo very unlikely.

As to the rest of your comment, I don't disagree. I'm not out to defend the British mess of a constitution. I'm not sure I see a good example of a well-functioning written constitution, though. (Doesn't mean there can't be one).

Overall, right now, I think we're being trolled by Johnson bluster and Cummings venom. They've got everybody jumping around and guessing. Keep everything in a state of flux where no one really knows wtf is going to happen, is the game.

Things are going to slide, slide in all directions
Won't be nothing, nothing you can measure anymore
L. Cohen

by john_evans (john(dot)evans(dot)et(at)gmail(dot)com) on Thu Oct 10th, 2019 at 06:34:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

"well-functioning written constitution" (none / 0)

You miss the point: No such thing exists.

All law "functions" because of obedience to and enforcement of it by people.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Thu Oct 10th, 2019 at 07:04:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

"well-functioning written constitution" (none / 1)

I don't miss the point. I say that I can't see one (though I concede it might exist).

Things are going to slide, slide in all directions
Won't be nothing, nothing you can measure anymore
L. Cohen

by john_evans (john(dot)evans(dot)et(at)gmail(dot)com) on Thu Oct 10th, 2019 at 07:17:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

"well-functioning written constitution" (4.00 / 2)

All law comes into being because people perform it. Whether they write it down or speak it is one of its attributes, not a factor of its function, product(s), or value--beneficent, perverse, or punitive.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Thu Oct 10th, 2019 at 07:32:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

an outbreak of "big men" on the planet (none / 1)

Most of us want our leaders to be strong and confident, but too many of us confuse arrogance and narcissism for strength. That is wrong. Research clearly shows that the very worst leaders - those who become tyrants - are very narcissistic and arrogant.

The flip side is: Why do people not follow apparently good leaders? Perhaps "being" emphatically non-arrogant, non-narcissistic, non-charismatic, non-manipulative leaves you without a chance to be trusted with leadership. Nice leaders gonna be very slow learners?

At a finance conference in San Francisco, a billionaire jerk just made a sexist comparison.

by das monde on Thu Oct 10th, 2019 at 07:27:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Understanding the 'Pop' in Populism

The polarized reactions that Trump elicits amount to one kind of evidence that something new is afoot in today's populism. Since Inauguration Day, the "resistance" has treated Trump more like an abusive stepfather than an elected head of state. Then there's his base, whose loyalty in the face of one transgression after another is famously unflagging [...]
Trump, in sum, is not just any populist, but one who appears to supporters as a paternal authority. This overlooked truth also explains their unflagging loyalty to him. Trump, to them, is no mere president, but a protector who has their best interests at heart - which is why perpetual attempts to unseat him by denouncing his transgressions will never rock his base.
Nor is Trump alone in functioning as a super-daddy in a world where more and more children and former children grow up without an ordinary father in the home

by das monde on Tue Oct 15th, 2019 at 08:38:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Wow, you mean if traditional patriarchy based on the economic imperatives of a 3000 year old herding economy had never been challenged then all would be well? I'm so surprised to see you citing such a thing.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Oct 15th, 2019 at 10:14:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Challenging economic (and evolutionary) imperatives is not a bad thing. But skepticism about self-knowledge, selective empathy, limits of feminism is not terrible either. The feminist ambition could be humbler rather than Jacobin-lite in face of the historic scale. Otherwise, you will not know everything you are getting with unchallenged female choice and so.

by das monde on Tue Oct 15th, 2019 at 11:45:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

But we already knew that populism is about appealing to people's worse instincts. I'm not sure whether you think progressives should combat it by adopting its tactics, or whether you think it's a good thing in itself.

_{It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue
- Queen Elizabeth II}

by eurogreen on Tue Oct 15th, 2019 at 04:00:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

"people's worse instincts" (none / 0)

What are those?

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Tue Oct 15th, 2019 at 05:11:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "people's worse instincts" (none / 1)

Why are Trump, Bolsonaro, BoJo so popular?
They take people's worse instincts and translate them into public policy.

_{It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue
- Queen Elizabeth II}

by eurogreen on Wed Oct 16th, 2019 at 10:02:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

It is not really people's worst instincts, but innate social games, communal-ethical language, inherent Wittgensteinian forms of life that people have been following since eons, and will surely continue to follow for quite some time.

If the progressives wish to ignore non-modern, "superstitious" morality dimensions heroically, they are acting irresponsibly on a grand scale. Rather than telling to outdo conservatives in bad appeals, all I would ask is to show some historical intelligence and perceivable charisma skills - just to attract attention of those not that passionate about modernity goods.

But apparently progressive leaders are doubling down on a trajectory that most folks do not wish to follow. Take Elisabeth Warren as a trooper for those social justices:

A supporter approaches you and says, "Senator, I'm old-fashioned and my faith teaches me that marriage is between one man and one woman." What is your response?

Well, I'm going to assume it's a guy who said that - She would not consider is was a woman.

Then just marry one woman. I'm cool with that. - Most likely, that kind of guy has a compliant wife.

Assuming you can find one. - Ha ha! Spoken downwards from a position of power, with visible satisfaction. Not classy, really.

by das monde on Tue Oct 15th, 2019 at 05:37:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

PREPOSTEROUS! (none / 0)

I'm confident we're on the same page here.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Tue Oct 15th, 2019 at 05:45:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]