"Given that we knew there was a new DSM, and we didn't have to go through the arduous work of finding the conflicts, which we had to do with the DSM 4, we could figure out whether there were more or fewer conflicts of interest on the new DSM panels. We published the results in the New England Journal of Medicine. And it turned out there were more conflicts in the DSM 5 with transparency than there were in the DSM 4 without transparency."