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What would it take to do away with the FPTP election system?
by Andhakari on Thu Sep 5th, 2019 at 11:10:05 AM EST
The last Conservative Liberal coalition attempted it - at the insistence of the lib dems - but the effort was sabotaged by the Conservatives and opposed by Labour as it challenged their two party duopoly. I will leave it to Helen and others here closer to the action to comment on the campaigns, but to the outsider it just seemed like another successful attempt by the establishment to dupe the rubes...

The UK experience of running referenda really isn't that good... A lack of political awareness and education allied to the dominance of the Oligarch controlled media and a supine BBC doesn't help.

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Thu Sep 5th, 2019 at 11:27:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Largely like the brexit referendum, it was stupdly done for a stuid reason.

The LibDems were totally shafted by the tories during the coalition, t which they contributed 50 votes. Compare this with the vast cargoes of goodies the DUP seem to be able to extract almost at will for the grudging supply of 6 votes.

Camern deliberately chose the worst version of proportional representation, one that even the Libems found difficult to support and Labour were happy to reject. It was badly explained with the tory press gleefully supplying boilerplate condemnation of the very concept of PR. It never stood a chance and went down in flames.

I voted for it, not because I thought it was a good version of PR, but because it challenged the stasis inherent in the status quo. The biggest probem in the british electoral system is that most of the constituencies represent jobs for life. there is no chance, under FPTP, that they will ever change hands. Of 6oo+ constitencies, 50 changing hands is a landlside.

I still think Labour wre wrong to oppose it, but under the pathetic "leadership" of Ed Miliband I can't say I was surprised.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Sep 6th, 2019 at 09:01:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Step one is to agree on the replacement system. Unfortunately, with humans involved it is hard to come up with something satisfactory.
by asdf on Thu Sep 5th, 2019 at 03:54:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I have to say I love the Irish Single Transferable Vote multi-seat constituency system. It's quite complicated to understand completely but the level of voter understanding of its minor nuances is sometimes amazing and provides endless fascination for political and electoral nerds.

It's reasonably proportional although larger parties often do relatively better but minor parties and independents also have a fair chance of picking up seats. It encourages a more collaborative culture as more extremist candidates tend not to get a lot of transfers from other candidates.  

Some people criticise it for encouraging clientelism and overly rewarding candidates with strong local name recognition rather than more policy orientated national candidates, but for me it usually achieves a fine balance between keeping members of parliament connected with local people and issues while at the same time having to contribute to national debate.

List systems can be more directly proportionate but are very national party hierarchy orientated and don't encourage much engagement between candidates and local issues. Most people in Ireland will know at least one of their local Teachta Dála - members of parliament - and those I have known have often been fine people if limited in certain ways.

It's very unusual for any one party to get an overall majority, so coalitions are the norm, but that also forces people of different persuasions to work together. People used to FPTP and winner takes all systems say that almost as if its a bad thing - two much back-room wheeling and dealing but that for me is the essence of politics - finding negotiated settlements to conflicting interests.

In my view the system in Ireland has been instrumental in reducing the level of voter apathy and alienation from the political system so widespread in democratic societies world-wide. That and the fact that the people actually have a say in the make up of the Constitution, something which is less obvious in the case of the UK unwritten constitution.

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Thu Sep 5th, 2019 at 04:26:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But it would be a far reach for the (still) UK to adopt an Irish voting system.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Thu Sep 5th, 2019 at 05:44:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Beneath it's dignity I would say, and far two complicated for the average English voter to understand. They do however seem to have gotten the hang of the simpler List system for European Parliament elections which even Brexit Party voters could understand - in rather large numbers, I might add.

Of Course the damned undemocratic EU won't be allowing the Brits to cast their votes in the EU Parliament elections any more after Brexit, or even allowing the UK Government to appoint a Commissioner. How will the EU possibly manage without their Brexit party MEPs to provide leadership, wisdom and guidance?

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Thu Sep 5th, 2019 at 06:04:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I would suspect any real chance of electoral reform would require at least three successive badly hung Parliaments, with the larger parties losing hope of ever securing a parliamentary majority.

There have been times when the UK almost adopted STV/AV (1918), AV (1931) or AV (2011). Each time the moment was lost and the concrete of first past the post re-solidified.

by Gary J on Fri Sep 6th, 2019 at 06:58:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Boris Johnson's brother quits as MP citing national interest
British prime minister Boris Johnson's younger brother, Jo, has resigned as a junior minister and said he would also step down as a member of parliament (MP), citing a conflict between family loyalty and the national interest.

His surprise resignation comes days after the prime minister expelled 21 Conservative lawmakers from the party for failing to back his Brexit strategy, including Winston Churchill's grandson and a former finance minister.

Since taking office in July, Boris Johnson has tried to corral the Conservative Party, which is deeply divided over Brexit, behind his strategy of leaving the European Union on October 31st, with or without a deal.

Jo Johnson (47) had previously expressed backing for a second referendum on whether Britain should leave the EU, but accepted a job as a junior minister in the business and education departments when his brother became prime minister. "It's been an honour to represent Orpington for 9 years & to serve as a minister under three PMs." Jo Johnson said on Twitter. "In recent weeks I've been torn between family loyalty and the national interest - it's an unresolvable tension & time for others to take on my roles as MP & Minister," he said.



Index of Frank's Diaries
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Thu Sep 5th, 2019 at 01:06:51 PM EST
The online ridicule directed at Johnson today has been relentlessly hilarious.

The only upside of Brexit is the quality of the comedy and satire it has generated.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Sep 5th, 2019 at 05:57:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
the first MP to resign from politics to spend less time with his family

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Sep 6th, 2019 at 09:03:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It has to be said, the spectacle of the Brexit clusterf*ck has certainly put a damper on all the various Nexit, Frexit, Itexit movements around the continent. "Leaving the EU" has been quietly removed of the extreme right parties platforms for the last European elections.

Heck, it makes even Italian politics look tame in comparison (and they have no shortage of colorful characters either).

by Bernard on Sun Sep 8th, 2019 at 09:18:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I would have written "the die is cast" in my opening sentence except that many here are non native English Speakers and may not realize die is the singular of dice and the phrase is an idiomatic expression meaning a process has reached a point of no return...

Index of Frank's Diaries
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Thu Sep 5th, 2019 at 02:39:12 PM EST
In a one-time European lingua franca, "alea jacta est".

Things are going to slide, slide in all directions
Won't be nothing
Nothing you can measure anymore
L. Cohen
by john_evans (john(dot)evans(dot)et(at)gmail(dot)com) on Thu Sep 5th, 2019 at 06:00:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Thu Sep 5th, 2019 at 06:08:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Online Etymological Dictionary: ejaculate (v.)

1570s, "emit semen," from Latin eiaculatus, past participle of eiaculari "to throw out, shoot out," from ex "out" (see ex-) + iaculari "to throw, hurl, cast, dart," from iaculum "javelin, dart," from iacere "to throw" (from PIE root *ye- "to throw, impel"). Sense of "exclaim suddenly" is from 1660s. Related: Ejaculated; ejaculating; ejaculatory.



Things are going to slide, slide in all directions
Won't be nothing
Nothing you can measure anymore
L. Cohen
by john_evans (john(dot)evans(dot)et(at)gmail(dot)com) on Thu Sep 5th, 2019 at 06:25:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I have a diary on political terminology in preparation - in fact I have been holding it back - to sensitise our dear readers to the finer nuances of the English nee Latin language. Thank you for your continuing contributions! It's not easy to keep it up!

Index of Frank's Diaries
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Thu Sep 5th, 2019 at 06:56:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I wouldn't bet the ranch the EU will agree to an extension.

Any extension would also need the unanimous approval of the leaders of the remaining 27 EU member-states -- and the British government would have to provide a valid reason for doing so.

Finnish Prime Minister Antti Rinne, whose country currently holds the rotating EU presidency, said on Wednesday there isn't enough widespread support among EU leaders to grant a third extension.



She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
by ATinNM on Thu Sep 5th, 2019 at 02:43:04 PM EST
Agreed, although EU leaders have stated they would support a further extension to facilitate a "democratic event" such as a change of Government, general election or referendum. It is quite conceivable they would refuse if Bojo is still poncing around seeking to cause trouble and blackguarding the EU, but might change their mind if a caretaker government is in power charged with coming up with proposals for a referendum.

The EU will try to avoid being responsible for a no-deal Brexit if at all possible, and there is always the chance the whole Brexit fiasco will run out of steam if they wait long enough. Bojo may be wrong about the EU always compromising at the last minute but fudge and procrastination are always on the menu.

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Thu Sep 5th, 2019 at 02:51:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The scenario for change in government could hardly be construed as a "democratic event." According to APsplainin' yesterday, 354 MPs voted for the election bill, 298-56. 296 MPs abstained. This performance by the legislature is not an affirmative defense of a polity, customarily understood to constitute democratic representation in government.

Indeed this Corbyn's two-week-coup rationale (to petition EU extension) leaps moot litigation preceding parliament's suspension, scheduled

no earlier than Monday 9 September and no later than Thursday 12 September, until Monday 14 October.
Conveniently, the Supreme Court schedule review of the "rolled-up" questions 16 September. Perhaps you expect it to liberate parliament from 10 Downing. You do not mention.

Moreover, these procedures did not resolve any questions pertinent to EU/ECJ stipulations of deadline extension of the no negotiation of the Withdrawal Agreement period. An act to "block no-deal" by UK does not bind Eu nor merit contemplation in the court's opinions of business pursuant to A50 resolution. Rather they realize potential abuses of appeal under the TFEU, acknowledged by the court. In short, UK has exhausted "election" dispensation (referendum, general, EP) twice previously and do not not now aver a people's vote either to ratify the WA or revoke A50. Accordingly, EU27 is implementing separation from UK and sloppy pretexts of either political or commercial union.

I look forward to those diary entries which invite half as much scrutiny of sloppy IE and EU politics.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Thu Sep 5th, 2019 at 05:06:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Any decision by the Council to allow or refuse any UK request for a further A.50 extension is a political rather than a legal decision and is at the Council's complete discretion. We can't be certain what decision they would make, indeed it is remarkable two extensions have already been granted, given the requirement for unanimity.

All I can do as a commentator is note they have previously indicated a willingness to consider an extension to facilitate a democratic event, and an unwillingness to be seen as responsible for precipitating a no deal Brexit which will cause a great deal of economic damage to the EU as well as the UK.

That said, Donald Tusk did implore the UK not to "waste the time" given by the last extension, which was longer than some wanted and resisted by Macron, in particular. So ATinNM is correct to warn another extension is not inevitable.

It all depends whether the EU Council feels that progress is being made in resolving the political impasse in the UK, and my Diary makes the case that progress is being made and could result in a final decision one way or the other within 6 months.

I suggest it would be in the interests of the EU to let that process run its course unless Boris Johnson remains in control and continues in his attempts to bully and denigrate the EU. If nothing else, Brexit must be providing endless amusement in EU Capitals and provides a cautionary tale for any and all others who might seek to go there...

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Thu Sep 5th, 2019 at 05:32:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You said that six months ago and the year preceding. Has nothing changed to UK, EU relations?

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Thu Sep 5th, 2019 at 09:06:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Remarkably little has changed since Theresa May agreed the Withdrawal Agreement with the EU in November 2018. No serious EU/UK negotiations have taken place since, and the UK parliament has been unable to agree on anything except that it is against a no-deal Brexit, and now wants another A.50 extension in the absence of a Brexit deal acceptable to both parties.

While this might appear as just a stagnant impasse, we have seen a gradual disintegration of the UK political system, and particularly the Conservative party. So there is an argument for the EU to simply wait this process out by agreeing further extensions.

In Ireland the strategy may be to try and wait out the demise of the current DUP dependent Tory government in the hope that the next UK government won't have a problem with Customs controls down the Irish sea.

All in all the EU can take a Napoleonic approach: don't interrupt your enemy while they are busy making mistakes

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Thu Sep 5th, 2019 at 10:18:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
no

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Fri Sep 6th, 2019 at 12:09:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Here is my proposal for what the EU should do.

* Clueless American warning!

If the UK leaves, the EU and the UK are both damaged. If the UK decides to rejoin, the various special clauses and agreements negotiated by Thatcher would have to be re-negotiated, probably to the UK's disadvantage.

Given that many in the UK think things will be fine after Brexit, while the remoaners and EU big shots think they won't, what the EU should do is offer a "reversible Brexit extension."

The UK would be immediately (31 October) suspended from the EU under no-agreement terms. Trade would proceed using WTO rules (if those can even be figured out), migration would be under "non-EU state" rules, law enforcement and military cooperation done using "non-EU state" rules, etc. Just as if there were a no-deal Brexit.

But there would be an allowance for the UK to return to its previous EU membership after, say, one year. If, after a year, the UK is ok with continuing outside the EU, it is out. If, after a year, it is a complete fricking catastrophe and the Brexiteers are hiding in shame, then the UK can rejoin the EU.

The advantage to the EU would be that there is a possibility of keeping the UK on board in the long term. The advantage to the UK would be that the practical effects of Brexit would be on full display, for better or worse, and would be reversible. The advantage to BoJo would be that he could say that he had delivered Brexit as promised. The advantage to the remoaners is that they could hope for rejoining without penalty if their predictions prove true.

by asdf on Thu Sep 5th, 2019 at 04:07:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Three problems:

  1. The EU is a rules based constructed based on a number of Treaties which were difficult to get passed and now almost impossible to change. There is no provision within the Treaties for the sort of trial Brexit you propose.

  2. If it were that easy to get in or out, everybody would be doing it and the EU would be in a constant state of turmoil. One Brexit has been bad enough!

  3. The disadvantages of Brexit are long term and may not be self evident to many (who have been relatively less effect) after one year.

Other than that, not a bad idea!

Index of Frank's Diaries
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Thu Sep 5th, 2019 at 04:43:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Have you never read the Withdrawal Agreement prepared by the UK gov and EU?

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Thu Sep 5th, 2019 at 05:09:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In fairness the Withdrawal Agreement is a turgid 599 page document which only political nerds and legal specialists would want to read. I'm quite sure Boris Johnson has never read it and I have only read extracts. We read this stuff so other saner people don't have to!

Index of Frank's Diaries
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Thu Sep 5th, 2019 at 05:40:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh I don't know.

I found Article 3 Territorial Scope Section 1(d) particularly engaging:

the Sovereign Base Areas of Akrotiri and Dhekelia in Cyprus, to the extent necessary to ensure the implementation of the arrangements set out in the Protocol on the Sovereign Base Areas of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland in Cyprus annexed to the Act concerning the conditions of accession of the Czech Republic, the Republic of Estonia, the Republic of Cyprus, the Republic of Latvia, the Republic of Lithuania, the Republic of Hungary, the Republic of Malta, the Republic of Poland, the Republic of Slovenia and the Slovak Republic to the European Union;


She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
by ATinNM on Thu Sep 5th, 2019 at 05:48:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But I was talking about the really dull bits which I can't be bothered to revisit for your delectation here...

Index of Frank's Diaries
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Thu Sep 5th, 2019 at 05:55:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Good analysis up to somewhere about halfway, then it becomes "and they all lived happily ever after". It's true that would be nice.

Things are going to slide, slide in all directions
Won't be nothing
Nothing you can measure anymore
L. Cohen
by john_evans (john(dot)evans(dot)et(at)gmail(dot)com) on Thu Sep 5th, 2019 at 06:04:24 PM EST
Well it is true that no one outside Labour's own MPs may agree to join a "government of National Unity" but Corbyn can't be faulted for trying and it does satisfy the populist refrain "why can't they all just work together in the national interest?".

But what I am proposing or suggesting might happen would be quite normal in most other European polities - different parties with different interests coming together around some common policies for a limited period, especially at a time of national crisis.

The visceral hatred, at a personal, level which you see between Tory, Liberal, Labour and Brexit party supporters isn't always apparent between "colleagues" at Westminster many of who have happily collaborated on specific pieces of legislation.

A lot of the hostility on view is for show, and here my point about winner takes all electoral systems discussed elsewhere on this thread becomes relevant: The system actively promotes confrontation and discourages collegiality, even common courtesy.

It's all very well the rubes being indoctrinated that Corbyn is an ogre, but you would have expected experienced old hands in Parliament to realise he has mostly acted, calmly, rationally, moderately, even astutely in the Labour party's and often the national interest. Maybe that is why they hate him so.

So please forgive a naive outside observer for failing to understand why all this has to end in hatred, confusion, disorder and civil strife. It's not rocket science, and many polities elsewhere have overcome far more serious conflicts. Are you saying the English have basically lost the ability to resolve the most basic conflicts and govern?

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Thu Sep 5th, 2019 at 06:46:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]


Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Thu Sep 5th, 2019 at 08:35:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Brexit was predominantly an English nationalist phenomenon, and becoming overwhelmingly so. I know Wales voted for Brexit as well, but don't have data on how sentiment there has changed since. Labour is still strong in parts of Wales and has been moving slowly in a Remain direction.

Index of Frank's Diaries
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Thu Sep 5th, 2019 at 10:52:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Is the British government still in control?

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Fri Sep 6th, 2019 at 02:08:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
He's lying in a ditch somewhere waiting to die...

Index of Frank's Diaries
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Fri Sep 6th, 2019 at 10:43:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]


Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Sat Sep 7th, 2019 at 04:03:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Englishman Boris Johnson currently personifies the leadership of he UK as PM. Under May it would have been a 'her'.


"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat Sep 7th, 2019 at 07:48:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I strongly doubt that if he gets the chance Jeremy Corbyn would do anything but form a purely Labour minority government, based on the existing shadow cabinet and excluding most of the more talented Labour MPs.

Corbyn and his ideological allies are a small slice of the political spectrum and this will be their one and only chance of power.

Corbyn has his own Brexit policy, which the other opposition groups would not agree to. Corbyn will no doubt apply for a Brexit extension, but wants the chance to negotiate a Labour Brexit. It has taken extreme pressure within the Labour Party, to get grudging acceptance there should be another referendum on Brexit eventually.

by Gary J on Fri Sep 6th, 2019 at 07:26:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But as the last two occupants of no.10 have shown, real power lies elsewhere at the moment. Any minority administration Corbyn might form now would have a very limited lifespan and a mandate to do 1 or at most 2 things: Request A.50 extension, and (perhaps) prepare legislation for a second referendum.

You can be sure that Lib Dem and dissident Tory MPs will be very vigilant in ensuring no "socialist" policy making or legislation is attempted. The one area where the government might be given some latitude is to negotiate "better" terms for both Remain and Brexit with the EU.

As I have suggested in my Diary, that could include a more social democratic policy input into a joint programme for EU "reform" with the Commission. The fact that any such programme would require Commission, Council and EU Parliament approval would, in itself, severely restrict its policy scope and ambition, especially in a leftist direction.

If Corbyn wants real power to implement a socialist agenda, he will have to win an overall majority in an election first, and at the moment he couldn't do so without at least some track record of success in Government and some measure of cooperation with other opposition parties.

Perhaps I am giving him more credit for vision and pragmatism than he deserves. We shall see.

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Fri Sep 6th, 2019 at 07:39:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Corbyn's majority party in both chambers will have to modify quite a number of laws. Or they can run about chanting with pitchforks to purge Corbyn apostates.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Sat Sep 7th, 2019 at 04:08:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

euractiv | handout

archived
Constitutional change the UK way (part 2), 2010
Electoral Reform - The UK Way, 2010

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Thu Sep 5th, 2019 at 09:03:44 PM EST
Has or has not a VNC occurred in the UK. BoJo lost his first major vote on Sept. 3. He has now announced a call for a new vote for an election on Sept. 9. Should that pass and were Parliament to be dissolved on Sept 10. there is no way Parliament could act to select a new PM until they reconvened on October 14, unless they did it on September 9, before being prorogued.

Parliament is to be prorogued from Sept. 10 to October 14. Does the PM have discretion on when to start the prorogation? Would changing the date require royal assent? Would Parliament then have 14 days after October 14 to find a new PM? If so, both assuming that process failed and that the 14 days included weekends, the earliest an election could be called would be on the 28th or 29th of October and the actual election date, at the earliest by law, would be in another 25 days - November 23, a Saturday, at the earliest.

So, when Parliament reconvenes on October 14 the first order of business should be ensuring that either an agreement for withdrawal is signed or that the Article 10 letter is revoked. It is hard to imagine that any but Brexiteers would entrust these actions to BoJo, given his history of duplicity. So it will either be allow BoJo to run out the clock or replace him. If not by October 14 then certainly by October 24th minds of Parliamentarians should be quite concentrated.

BoJo: MENE, MENE, TEKEL, UPHARSIN

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Thu Sep 5th, 2019 at 09:14:35 PM EST
There has been no VONC, because a VONC could lead to an election - which the opposition doesn't want.

Yet.

The current state of play is that legislation has passed telling Johnson to ask for an extension. Johnson wants an election, which he might win, but because of the fixed term act he can only get an election if at least 2/3 of all MPs vote for one.

That vote was yesterday. Johnson lost it. So currently Johnson either has to go to Brussels and ask for an extension, or force a GE on a simple majority motion before Parliament prorogues next week, or - looking more and more likely - resign as PM and party leader.

The GE motion will probably be tried. It's hard to say if it would pass. Parliament is in almost complete chaos, so it would depend entirely on how the Tory rebels feel about forcing a GE - which will likely vary between "Might as well get it over with" to "Fuck you Johnson - hell no".

Resigning would be a classic Johnson move - petulance combined with destructive ineffectiveness. It would leave the Tories fighting an election without a leader - Johnson might hang on as caretaker - which would very likely destroy them.

Farage's BXP would pick up the mad No Deal vote. Some MPs would ensue, but they'd be irrelevant - except as a far-right irritant - in a post-Brexit Parliament.

The Tory vote would be split between BXP extremists, LibDem-leaning moderates, and stay-at-home stalwarts disgusted by how this has turned out. It's very hard to see how the Tories could do well in those circumstances.

The one worry is that there may be a Tory grandee plot to persuade Parliament to vote for May's Deal - which somehow managed to sneak itself into an amendment on the No Deal bill, passed under very suspicious circumstances.

In this model Johnson is considered an expendable comic distraction, and MPs - including Labour - could be persuaded to vote for a deal just to end the madness.

In theory that's unlikely, because Labour officially want a People's Vote, and sneaking through May's Deal would trash their chances in a GE. Meanwhile the Tories don't have the numbers to make it happen.

But the worst outcome would be an unholy alliance between Tories, Tory rebels, and Labour pro-Brexit rebels. If they all worked together they could just about make it work. And it would be incredibly damaging to Labour in general and Corbyn in particular - which they'd all be thrilled with, Labour rebels included.

This would be a complete win for the Brexiters, but without the nuclear destruction of No Deal. And it would also end Corbyn.

Expect the drama to continue for at least the next six weeks or so.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Sep 5th, 2019 at 10:51:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Boris has left himself very little wriggle room by saying he "would rather die in a ditch, than ask for a further A.50 extension".

So now all Labour have to do, following on the passing of Act mandating the PM ask for an A.50 extension if he hasn't negotiated a deal approved by Parliament by October 19th., is wait for October 19th. and wait for Boris to die in a ditch of his own making.

If he can't get a deal, and he can't call a general election (which the Commons doesn't want), his only options are to ask fr an A.50 extension, and basically destroy himself and the Tory party (The Brexit Party will make hay) or resign.

If he resigns, who does the Queen ask to form the next government? There is no deputy Tory Party Leader and no time to elect a new Tory leader. The only person with anything even close to resembling a majority is Corbyn.

He can govern, as set out in my Diary with, or without help from cabinet Ministers from other parties or none.

And all he has to do is apply for and get the A.50 extension and put together the legislation and the options for a second referendum, in the mean time going through the motions of negotiating better deals for leaving or remaining in the EU.

What other person could the Queen ask to be PM?

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Thu Sep 5th, 2019 at 11:14:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Or, sit in place and simply do nothing. Just because he is legally obligated to do something does not mean it will automatically happen? He might end up in court afterwards, but if the deadline passes and he has not done what he was legally required to do, then what?
by Zwackus on Thu Sep 5th, 2019 at 11:52:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Commons Library on the rebel Bill to block a no deal Brexit - The House of Parliament's Magazine

What does the Bill do in relation to an extension?

The (Hilary Benn MP's Private Member's) Bill is not the same as April's Cooper-Letwin Bill. It goes further than that Bill in several key respects.

At first instance, clause 1 of the Bill gives the Government until Saturday 19 October to do either of two things. It could seek and secure the approval of MPs for either:

(a) a withdrawal agreement, or

(b) leaving the European Union without a withdrawal agreement

If by the end of 19 October the House of Commons has done neither of these things, the Prime Minister must then have sought from the European Council an extension of Article 50 for a further four months - until 31 January 2020.

If at any time after 19 October a withdrawal agreement is approved by the Commons, or the Commons decides the UK should leave without a deal, the Prime Minister can withdraw or modify his Article 50 extension request.

The HOC has from October 19 to select a new PM if Boris Johnson has not fulfilled one or the other of the mandates provided in the Benn bill. Nothing is fool proof, but it looks like this bill is about as close as one can get.


"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Fri Sep 6th, 2019 at 12:19:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What is to stop him obeying the letter of the law, but not the spirit?

Boris: "I am requesting an extension"
EU: "What will you use the extension for"
Boris: <implicitly or explicitly> "Nothing. I am legally compelled to request it, but do not want it. If granted I intend to sit on my hand and do my utmost to squat in 10 Downing street until it expires, all the while railing against the conspiracy of traitors and the EU that is preventing glorious brexit"

by det on Fri Sep 6th, 2019 at 01:18:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Note the language:"seek and secure".

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Fri Sep 6th, 2019 at 02:16:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But "secure" is not within Boris's gift to deliver. That is at the discretion of the EU.

 

by det on Fri Sep 6th, 2019 at 07:20:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
True, but if the PM does not 'secure' said assent, the Parliament can replace him with someone who might make a more forthcoming attempt. But, ultimately, the decision WILL rest with the EU.


"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Fri Sep 6th, 2019 at 05:01:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
secure the approval of MPs for either:

(a) a [sic] withdrawal agreement, or

(b) leaving the European Union without a withdrawal agreement



Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Sat Sep 7th, 2019 at 04:13:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, that is what it says. But what happens if the PM simply does not act according to what the law requires? Usually this is not an issue -- a domestic political action never depends on a timeline that can't just be extended or ignored by the same political body that made that deadline. But in this case, it's an EU deadline which the HoC cannot unilaterally change.

The PM might get into all kinds of trouble and cause all sorts of legal ruckus should he refuse to act in accordance with the law, but that would not change the fact that the EU deadline had passed and no-deal had been secured.

by Zwackus on Fri Sep 6th, 2019 at 04:20:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That would seem like a perfect opportunity for a formal vote of no confidence, with Corbyn promising to do what Parliament has ordered.

If also we promises a people's vote, he should take a page from NZ's book, and legislate the outcomes. Its easy enough to do, and it gives the public clarity on what they're voting for.

by IdiotSavant on Fri Sep 6th, 2019 at 04:54:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Did you not read the EU schedule?

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Fri Sep 6th, 2019 at 12:05:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Legislation will return to Commons for debate before prorogation of parliament
The House of Lords has agreed to progress a backbench bill seeking to block a no-deal Brexit, as Boris Johnson prepared to make a speech calling again for Labour to allow a general election.

At about 1.30am on Thursday, following hours of debate, peers were told that the cross-party bill, tabled by Labour's Hilary Benn, would be returned to the lower house by 5pm on Friday, ruling out the prospect of fresh attempts at a filibuster.

It could then be voted on again by MPs on Monday and presented for royal assent, the Lords heard. Peers are due to debate the Benn bill itself and amendments on Thursday.



"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Fri Sep 6th, 2019 at 02:25:03 AM EST
BBC: PM: I'd rather be dead in ditch than delay Brexit:

Boris Johnson has said he would "rather be dead in a ditch" than ask the EU to delay Brexit beyond 31 October.

But the PM declined to say if he would resign if a postponement - which he has repeatedly ruled out - had to happen.

The UK parliament seems to be digging a ditch for him, so I guess we'll get to find out if he's serious.

by IdiotSavant on Fri Sep 6th, 2019 at 04:56:38 AM EST
Farage will commit all seats of his Brexit Party by default to the Tory Brexiteers in support of BoJo ... dumb move.

"I'd be rather dead in a ditch than have Farage as a friend."

But I'm not a Briton and don't dwell in a fishing village on the coast. Farage casting out his net for a big haul of fish ... that's were the similarities with the man from Galilee ends. Time's a changing ...

Global Warming - distance between America and Europe is steadily increasing.

by Oui on Fri Sep 6th, 2019 at 10:32:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
tbh at this rate I imagine that the Tory backbenchers will do for him fairly soon. He is unravelling badly and with worse grace

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Sep 6th, 2019 at 09:11:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It seems like Boris has backed himself, and the hard core Brexit supporters, into a wall. They can't get what they want, but can't back down, and can't be dislodged from power. Now, in the bad old days, these sorts of deadlocks were often resolved by one party or another declaring war. Why not now?

Just imagine, the British army and navy launching a surprise strike against the EU. Bombs dropped on Brussels! French ships sunk in the channel! Eurofighters destroyed on the ground! Oh, the glory, oh the humiliation. How much would it take before the EU would realize the error of its ways, and create the sort of custom-tailored unequal treaty that used to the speciality of British treaty negotiatiors. How much munitions would it take for the EU to agree that the UK should have full control over immigration, access to the common market, and full regulatory freedom in product safety, environment, and labor standards?

Could you imagine Trump standing up to a resurgent Tory nationalist movement? How long do you think it woudl take before the eastward-oriented militaries of the European powers could reorient themselves to face the new British Menace, and by then would it be too late for their air defense and C&C capabilities?

Boris would finally get to tbe the war leader he's always dreamed of, a new British conquerer showing up those Euro dogs as the craven cowards everybody knows they are! Hail the conquering hero!

by Zwackus on Fri Sep 6th, 2019 at 05:36:42 AM EST
And John Evans accuses me of having an over-active imagination...

Index of Frank's Diaries
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Fri Sep 6th, 2019 at 10:41:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I've tried to restrict the diary to a fairly mainstream scenario of how current events could unravel, but there are a few other possibilities I have considered:

  1. Boris could refuse to present the Bill for Royal Assent, after it has been approved by both Houses. I don't know what this means in British Constitutional terms...

  2. Boris Could refuse to seek an A.50 extension as mandated by law leaving the House with no option but to Vote no confidence and appoint someone else PM to carry out the law - and very little time to do so.

  3. Boris could formally seek an A.50 extension but tell the EU he will make their lives as miserable as possible and suggest they would be well advised to refuse the request. Game over, if the EU refuses request under those circumstance? Or the EU could grant request anyway and dare him to do his worst - resulting in the UK's international reputation going further down the tubes.

  4. Boris could refuse to send a Commissioner to Brussels by 1. Nov as required under EU law - resulting in the expulsion of the UK from the EU. Presumably the House of Commons could appoint someone as Commissioner?

  5. Boris could keep his word and not seek an A.50 extension but could simply withdraw the A.50 notification altogether - saying The UK can always re-issue an A.50 notification once it has agreed what sort of Brexit it wants. Cue uproar in the Brexit party. Cue a decision of the European Court of Justice that an A.50 notification cannot be simply issued, withdrawn and issued again? Cue uproar in the HOC that such a major decision can only be made by the British people in a public vote? Cue a HOC attempt to legislate for such a public vote? Cue a general election with the Conservative and Brexit parties at loggerheads over Britain's true Brexit soul?

The possibilities begin to multiply, and the diary is long enough as it is. However I reserve the right to write "The Prisoner of No.10, chapter 2" at some stage!

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Fri Sep 6th, 2019 at 11:09:51 AM EST
1 means an immediate constitutional crisis. Royal assent has not been refused to legislation passed by the UK parliament since 1708 (naturally, they did it all the time to their colonies, and it was one of the reasons the Merkins rebelled). It is disputed whether the monarch actually could refuse assent to a bill passed by parliament, and if ministers advised her to do so, it would result in an immediate court case. or a second bill declaring the assent unnecessary (or a third one declaring a republic).

(In NZ, also a westminster system, it would be unthinkable. In our derivative constitution, there is a strong constitutional norm that parliament is supreme. But then, we're democratic, and we've long accepted that the government may not have a majority on all things, and may have laws passed against its wishes. Unlike Britain).

by IdiotSavant on Fri Sep 6th, 2019 at 11:30:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The very nature of the options you list, along with the multitude that have been discussed here over the last few years, constitutes proof that the UK government is fundamentally broken. I don't expect anyone to do anything about it, but I don't expect anything good to come from the existing institution either.
It seems to me that the fptp system encourages brinkmanship and intolerance, not to mention dictatorship by the few. Isn't that the essence of bolshevism?
We shouldn't have to guess how a purportedly transparent democratic institution should work. And we sure as shit shouldn't have to guess or care what the freaking queen will do.
by Andhakari on Fri Sep 6th, 2019 at 02:43:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, its fundamentally broken, and their archaic voting system and the confrontation and unaccountability it promotes is a huge part of that problem.

But then, that's the difference between NZ's westminster system and the UK's: we're democratic: we use MMP. And that has completely changed our political and constitutional thinking.

by IdiotSavant on Fri Sep 6th, 2019 at 07:43:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes the mixed member proportional system is a good compromise between the party list system and the FPTP system encouraging proportionality in representation, some tactical voting, and cooperation between parties  while not entirely losing the identification between Constituencies and their MPs.

A diary on how it has changed New Zealand's political culture since its introduction would be much appreciated!

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Fri Sep 6th, 2019 at 07:57:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
According to the Parliament website:


Does the Queen give Royal Assent in person?

The Queen can give Royal Assent in person but this has not happened since 1854. The Queen's agreement to give her assent to a Bill is a formality.

also...

There is no set time period between the conclusion of consideration of amendments/ping pong and royal assent.

...which could give rise to shenanigans.

The great constitutional authority Wikipedia says:

The last bill that was refused assent by the sovereign (on the advice of ministers) was the Scottish Militia Bill during Queen Anne's reign in 1708.[4]

Under modern constitutional conventions, the sovereign generally acts on, and in accordance with, the advice of his or her ministers.[5] However, there is some disagreement among scholars as to whether the monarch should withhold royal assent to a bill if advised to do so by her ministers.[6] Since these ministers most often enjoy the support of parliament and obtain the passage of bills, it is improbable that they would advise the sovereign to withhold assent. Hence, in modern practice, the issue has never arisen, and royal assent has not been withheld.[7]

From the same UK Parliament page as above:

Lords Commissioners: are also Privy Counsellors - appointed to advise the Queen in carrying out her duties.

They perform certain functions on behalf of the Queen, including announcing Royal Assent during prorogation.

The acting Lords Commissioners are known as the Royal Commission.

Back to Wikipedia:

The Royal Commission includes at least three--and usually five--Lords Commissioners. In current practice, the Lords Commissioners usually include the Lord Chancellor, the Archbishop of Canterbury (who is named but usually does not participate), the leaders of the three major parties in the House of Lords, the convenor of the House of Lords Crossbenchers and (since 2007) the Lord Speaker.[citation needed]

The Lord Speaker is the Speaker of the House of Lords. The Lord Chancellor (named by Bojo) is currently Robert Buckland, a Welsh barrister who was for Remain in the 1916 referendum.

On balance, therefore, we may safely say that... god alone knows what might happen if Bozzer wanted to torpedo or delay this bill. The whole thing depends on all the lords and ladies bowing and curtseying and dancing the gavotte in a public-spirited manner. And since, after all, Bozzer represents the Will of the People, all kinds of things might happen.


Things are going to slide, slide in all directions
Won't be nothing
Nothing you can measure anymore
L. Cohen

by john_evans (john(dot)evans(dot)et(at)gmail(dot)com) on Fri Sep 6th, 2019 at 03:12:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Neither is there "I" in "team".

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Sat Sep 7th, 2019 at 04:16:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Possible captions :
"That's a lot of bull"
"Give him enough rope"

"Come this way. There's a nice little china shop around the corner..."


It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Fri Sep 6th, 2019 at 11:12:26 AM EST
"Even match in stubbornness"

In other words: it ain't going nowhere. 😅

Global Warming - distance between America and Europe is steadily increasing.

by Oui on Fri Sep 6th, 2019 at 11:20:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Security man in background - "I'm outta here"

Or else its on Dominic Cumming's farm and Dominic (exit, stage left) has just told Boris to take the Bull by the horns omitting to inform Boris that this bull has no horns...

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Fri Sep 6th, 2019 at 11:28:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The bull is named John, so Boris is leading John Bull.


"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat Sep 7th, 2019 at 08:02:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
As if there isn't enough bullshit in number 10.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sun Sep 8th, 2019 at 11:47:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]


Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Fri Sep 6th, 2019 at 02:56:29 PM EST
That would be a vote of confidence. If lost = no confidence.

Things are going to slide, slide in all directions
Won't be nothing
Nothing you can measure anymore
L. Cohen
by john_evans (john(dot)evans(dot)et(at)gmail(dot)com) on Fri Sep 6th, 2019 at 03:14:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If lost, the Commons has 14 days to vote confidence in the Government or in someone else. Otherwise a general election is precipitated. Does that mean 14 sitting days, or do days during the prorogation count, in which case, effectively, the Commons has no opportunity to propose an alternate Prime Minister.

We shouldn't really have to be asking such questions, they should be clearly laid out either in a written Constitution or in legislation... or am I missing something?

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Fri Sep 6th, 2019 at 03:46:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Act just says "14 days". Probably Parliamentary working days, but it doesn't say.

Things are going to slide, slide in all directions
Won't be nothing
Nothing you can measure anymore
L. Cohen
by john_evans (john(dot)evans(dot)et(at)gmail(dot)com) on Sat Sep 7th, 2019 at 01:35:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
is permitted, as a practical matter.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Sat Sep 7th, 2019 at 04:17:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, the letter of the law says I'm wrong. A defeated confidence motion is not the equal of a no-confidence motion for the purposes of the Fixed-Term Parliaments Act.

(3)An early parliamentary general election is also to take place if--

(a)the House of Commons passes a motion in the form set out in subsection (4), and

(b)the period of 14 days after the day on which that motion is passed ends without the House passing a motion in the form set out in subsection (5).

(4)The form of motion for the purposes of subsection (3)(a) is--

"That this House has no confidence in Her Majesty's Government."

(5)The form of motion for the purposes of subsection (3)(b) is--

"That this House has confidence in Her Majesty's Government."

The above means that the PM cannot hope to trigger an election unless there is a no-confidence motion. Can the government propose no confidence in itself? I doubt if there's a precedent for it.

But fighting for the People against the entrenched elites is a battle that calls for unprecedented behaviour.

Things are going to slide, slide in all directions
Won't be nothing
Nothing you can measure anymore
L. Cohen

by john_evans (john(dot)evans(dot)et(at)gmail(dot)com) on Sat Sep 7th, 2019 at 01:26:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There is the first time for everything.

Which is not to say that it, the first occurence of a thing, is inconceivable or has been observed by every one. Res ipsa loquitor.

Thus, one first reads the procedure (4) by Tory MPs to effect a failure of motion (5) on or about conclusion of the prorogation in effect. Calling into being an early parliamentary election without further ado.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Sat Sep 7th, 2019 at 04:39:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If a VNC occurs AFTER prorogation, October 14, then there is a time problem The VNC allows 14 days to find an alternate PM or get a fresh VOC. Then law allows 25 days before an election can occur. But the Benn Bill requires the PM 'to seek and secure' an extension from the EU or a vote for a no deal Brexit by October 19. So Parliament has until the 27th, safely, to select a new PM. Should Pariament fail to select a new PM by October 28 Boris could ingnore the law then do nothing and let the UK crash out of the EU. So the Remainers should act decisively and quickly after

Recent events have shown that the Remain coalition CAN act quickly and decisively. They could do so again and replace Boris. Or not. If not, the triumphant Brexiteers would likely win a November Election and the UK would be out of the EU. That fact, and/or an act of Parliament could make it unlikely that Boris would be prosecuted for violating the law against a no deal Brexit.

However the EU requires that the Article 50 letter be submitted in compliance with the Constitution and Laws o the submitting country. So, should Boris ignore the law, the EU could deny the validity of the exit.


"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat Sep 7th, 2019 at 08:26:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
after...a failure by the PM to 'seek and secure'.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat Sep 7th, 2019 at 08:28:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
EU requires that the Article 50 letter be submitted in compliance with the Constitution
That is not quite correct. See Curia Case C‑621/18 judgment, in re: A.50 TEU; A. 54, 65, 67, 68 VCLT; UK European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018

Could you, please, retrieve the letter T. May submitted to D. Tusk describing the gov reasoning for an extension of the NO NEGOTIATION period?

Tusk, on behalf of EU Council, granted an extension with proviso. Could you, please, retrieve the reply to T. May by D. Tusk?

The contents of these materials are pertinent, model references as to the surety of any petition proffered to the EU Council by any PM on behalf of HRM or parliament in toto.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Sat Sep 7th, 2019 at 09:51:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This was already being discussed for May last year. It's a predictable outcome of the Fixed Term Act.
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri Sep 6th, 2019 at 03:15:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
British Court OKs Suspension of UK Parliament
On Friday, the High Court in London ruled that Johnson's move to suspend Parliament for nearly five weeks was lawful.
[...]
The High Court is expected to issue written reasons for its decision next week. A similar challenge against Johnson was shot down in a Scotland court earlier in the week. Another legal challenge was being heard Friday in Belfast.



Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Fri Sep 6th, 2019 at 04:21:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Benn bill, intended to prevent a no-deal Brexit on 31 October, has just been approved by the House of Lords. It passed the upper house without being amended, which means that it does not have to go back to the House of Commons. It will become law as soon as it gets royal assent, which should happen on Monday.

Unless it doesn't happen...

Things are going to slide, slide in all directions
Won't be nothing
Nothing you can measure anymore
L. Cohen

by john_evans (john(dot)evans(dot)et(at)gmail(dot)com) on Fri Sep 6th, 2019 at 03:30:24 PM EST
Opposition parties agree to block election until Brexit delay secured
Jeremy Corbyn and other party leaders commit to voting down snap election plan on Monday
Opposition parties have agreed to reject Boris Johnson's attempt to trigger a snap election for a second time on Monday, making it increasingly unlikely a poll will be held before 31 October.

Jeremy Corbyn held the latest of a series of discussions with fellow opposition leaders on Friday morning, at which they agreed not to allow an election to take place until after a delay to Brexit has been secured.

Downing Street has tabled a motion under the Fixed-term Parliaments Act for a second time asking MPs to approve an early general election. It requires the support of two-thirds of MPs to pass - impossible without the backing of opposition parties.

And the beat goes on.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Fri Sep 6th, 2019 at 07:57:03 PM EST
Will Bercow even allow Boris to submit the same motion under the Fixed Term Parliament act twice?

Index of Frank's Diaries
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Fri Sep 6th, 2019 at 08:18:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So Boris is now hoist on his own petard. He is left with a choice between breaking the law, and breaking his word (yet again). The fact that he has prorogued parliament for 5 weeks actually let's parliament off the hook of having to appear to be doing something useful. Once the opposition have turned down his appeal for an election on Monday for the second time, his taunts that they are running away from the people will lose their effectiveness: Parliament can't call an election if it isn't even sitting.

In the meantime, disparate opposition groups are getting practice working together, and being seen to be effective. Meanwhile Boris' Brussels negotiations are not going well:
Boris Johnson's Irish border plan stalls after 'disastrous' EU talks

Boris Johnson's first concrete proposal for replacing the Irish backstop has hit the buffers in the latest "disastrous" meeting between the prime minister's chief negotiator and the EU.

In a heavily trailed move, Johnson's envoy, David Frost, proposed an all-Ireland food standards zone on Friday, but the UK is also seeking to give the Stormont assembly a say on whether it would continue in the years ahead.

The attempt to give the proposed arrangement what British officials have described as democratic legitimacy by involving politicians in Northern Ireland was firmly knocked back by the EU. European commission negotiators said such a proposal would leave Ireland in a constant state of uncertainty over the future.

The development comes as EU sources close to the negotiation spoke of their doubts about the potential fruitfulness of the talks given the likelihood of a general election and the insistence from the prime minister that his negotiating position has been wrecked by no deal being taken off the table.

EU officials involved in the negotiations are understood to have lamented that Frost has been acting "like a spokesman" for the prime minister, saying that Theresa May's envoy, Olly Robbins, had at least been able to talk around the problems encountered in the talks.

It hasn't escaped Brussels notice that the N.I. Assembly hasn't even met in almost 3 years, has no competence in trade matters, and would be subject to a DUP veto if it did meet. Also it hardly makes sense to conduct sanitary and phytosanitary checks in Belfast and Larne harbours and  VAT and customs checks elsewhere. Agri-foods constitute only about 30% of N.I./I.E. trade and EU officials need a solution that covers all such trade.

Boris might be said to be trying to have it both ways, denying the 56% of N.I. voters who voted to Remain the right to remain, but providing the DUP with a veto on North South cooperation indefinitely.

Earlier in the week Johnson had referenced the comments of the former Democratic Unionist party (DUP) leader Ian Paisley who had said of Northern Ireland that the people were British but "the cattle were Irish".

Johnson is insisting, in a move designed to make the proposal palatable to the DUP, that the arrangement would have to "clearly enjoy the consent of all parties and institutions with an interest".

It is understood the UK has suggested there is a need for Stormont to be able to vote on the continuation of the proposed common regulatory area, which has been described by EU officials as a "backstop-lite".

EU sources said the suggestion was firmly rebuffed and that recent meetings had been a "disaster", with the gap between the two negotiating teams seemingly widening by the day.

Sources said the discussion over the common agrifood area was "cursory" and further discussions over the UK's preferred alternative to the backstop were expected next week.

Irish government sources reacted angrily to Johnson's gambit, saying the protection of the all-Ireland economy was a vital element of the Good Friday agreement, and that the responsibility for protecting the peace process lay with Westminster and not the Northern Ireland assembly.



Index of Frank's Diaries
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Fri Sep 6th, 2019 at 09:52:56 PM EST
Now strongly hinting he will not obey the new law:

The prime minister reportedly wrote to Tory members on Friday evening pledging to break the law that will require him to seek an extension of Article 50. "They just passed a law that would force me to beg Brussels for an extension to the Brexit deadline. This is something I will never do."

Earlier on Friday he said he would not entertain seeking another deadline extension from Brussels, as the incoming law, expected to receive royal assent on Monday, compels him to if no agreement is in place by 19 October. "I will not. I don't want a delay," Johnson said.

The former Conservative leader Iain Duncan Smith encouraged Mr Johnson to break the law, saying he would be seen as a Brexit "martyr" if judges opted to put him jail for breaching parliament's terms.



Things are going to slide, slide in all directions
Won't be nothing
Nothing you can measure anymore
L. Cohen
by john_evans (john(dot)evans(dot)et(at)gmail(dot)com) on Sat Sep 7th, 2019 at 05:59:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What a wonderful example for the whole country - only obey the laws you agree with. Tories: The party of unlawful disorder...

Index of Frank's Diaries
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Sat Sep 7th, 2019 at 12:57:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But a martyr... For the cause of the People... Against the establishment... Against the elites...

</stevebannon>

Things are going to slide, slide in all directions
Won't be nothing
Nothing you can measure anymore
L. Cohen

by john_evans (john(dot)evans(dot)et(at)gmail(dot)com) on Sat Sep 7th, 2019 at 01:07:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Personally on the hook for all damage done by a no-deal Brext then, according to David Allen Green, as well as criminal charges and contempt of court.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sat Sep 7th, 2019 at 01:44:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Pfeffle of Pfeff Hall gets his comeuppance.

Things are going to slide, slide in all directions
Won't be nothing
Nothing you can measure anymore
L. Cohen

by john_evans (john(dot)evans(dot)et(at)gmail(dot)com) on Sat Sep 7th, 2019 at 02:26:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What is he legally required to do?

Carry a one sentence paper to Brussels and then spend a day verbally arguing against it? Write up a dissertation on all the bad stuff about the EU and then on the last page say that despite everything he is requesting an extension? Take the paper to the Brussels airport and toss it into the bin? Make a verbal request in an even more obnoxious and insulting way that already demonstrated?

Seems like there is lots of wiggle room for the PM to avoid making a serious extension request.

by asdf on Sat Sep 7th, 2019 at 02:12:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I just know, you are an avid reader of pending litigation evoking the OBSCURE Administrative Procedure Act, 5 U.S. Code CHAPTER 5, to thwart sundry executive agencies' regulations, directed by Team Trump alias POTUS, to implement horseshit enacted by the money-grubbing odious.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Sat Sep 7th, 2019 at 08:06:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
after the dread Rosenstein, after the dread 2020 Census "citizen question"
Immigrants Take Feds to Court Over Stricter Asylum Rules
In addition to [allegedly] violating the Administrative Procedure Act, federal immigration law and the First Amendment [?], the groups and asylum seekers say the rules are invalid because the man who issued them, U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services Acting Director Ken Cuccinelli, was unlawfully appointed.

Cuccinelli took over USCIS after President Donald Trump forced former Director Lee Francis Cissna to resign. Under a federal law that dictates how acting directors take on their roles, the groups say USCIS Deputy Director Mark Koumans should have taken over for Cissna, but that Trump worked around this by making a new office just for Cuccinelli.



Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Mon Sep 9th, 2019 at 07:05:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
According the the Telegraph, the Tories have a Cunning Plan.
Without violating the Torygraph's paywall, nor encouraging anyone to give them money, here's the Guardian's extract :

As referred to earlier, according to today's Daily Telegraph splash (paywall), Johnson is considering a new version of the "two contradictory letters strategy" to try to confound the law passed by parliament requiring him to request an article 50 extension if he has failed to agree a Brexit deal by 19 October, and if MPs have not voted to agree no deal (which they won't). Here is an extract from Owen Bennett and Harry Yorke's story.

Boris Johnson has drawn up plans to "sabotage" any Brexit extension without breaking the law, the Telegraph has learnt ...
One plan under serious consideration would see the prime minister send an accompanying letter alongside the request to extend article 50 setting out that the government does not want any delay after Oct 31.
On Sunday night, a cabinet source told The Telegraph: "There is a prescribed letter that has to be sent ... Does that stop the prime minister sending other documents to the EU? I don't think it does.
"A political explainer perhaps, as to where the government's policy is. It has to make clear that the government is asking for an extension, but let's not forget what the next step is.
"Once that is done, the Europeans are going to ask: `Why? What is the reason?' [What] if the government said: `We don't have any reasons for an extension'?
"There is a clear path now: the Europeans need to refuse an extension."

Wizard wheeze. I'm sure that'll work. Unless someone in Brussels (or Paris or Berlin or...) knows how to read English, and is aware that this bozo has no majority in Parliament, and that Parliament has commanded him to request an extension.

In which case, I should think the extension would be granted pretty much automatically.


It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Mon Sep 9th, 2019 at 08:41:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
See a highly authorised opinion of this wizard wheeze here.

Things are going to slide, slide in all directions
Won't be nothing
Nothing you can measure anymore
L. Cohen
by john_evans (john(dot)evans(dot)et(at)gmail(dot)com) on Mon Sep 9th, 2019 at 09:21:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Although I am of the opinion that Boris might try it and shout "see you in court!!!". By the time the case can be tried and a judgement passed, it'll be far too late. No deal will have happened.

Also, judging by the pronouncements over the high court judgements on pro-roguing, I think the courts are trying to stay out of politics.

Of course, Boris or cummings might go to jail, but I doubt it. they'll be fined, slapped on the wrist. Even if they do go, presuming a Tory govt, they'll be pardoned, ennobled and sent to the Lords from which they'll rule in absentia from the bar of a luxury yacht in the Mediterranean after they've cashed in their winnings

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Sep 10th, 2019 at 01:06:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
For one so young you are so cynical!
As a public schoolboy Boris will have been taught to obey the rules and present his back-side for a good thrashing if he disobeys them...
If he were serious about doing such things he wouldn't be allowing his Sherpas to be speculating to the media about them. Never let your enemy see you coming...

Index of Frank's Diaries
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Tue Sep 10th, 2019 at 03:07:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Is there not some arcane law whereby Parliament might order the imprisonment of Dominic Cummings in the Tower and his trial for High Treason? Might discourage a few other miscreants?

Index of Frank's Diaries
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Sat Sep 7th, 2019 at 03:42:19 PM EST
No, the joy of the unwritten Constitution is that the Executive rule in loco Regina, which means they can do what they want whenever they want.

After all, the only check is precedent, which is really just saying your boundaries are set by your willingns to play fast and loose with the "rules". But for the products of Eton, rules, regulations and laws are just for little people. Wheras the sone of privilege are entitled to seize the day by any means necessary, Britannia waives the rules etc etc [vague blathering
about the empire on which the sun never sets mumble mumble....decays into incoherence]


keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sat Sep 7th, 2019 at 04:38:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't know about that.

Only a figurative minute ago in this and other threaders readers here contemplated rationales for an intervention by the infirm monarch in selection of a prime minister for ahh "her government"...

as if estranged from parliament ...

regardless of HoC rules or the vast body of unknown legislation governing the so-called English peoples who ahh rule wtf.

##Rule of law is not well understood.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Sat Sep 7th, 2019 at 04:56:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
just as Trump has demonstrated that, depsite a written Constitution, a law can only be applied to a Government willing to accept such limits, Boris is attempting to demonstrate that with no Constitution at all, he ight just be able to do whatever he likes.

Fortune favours the brave. By the time the courts have examined the legality of what is done, it has become the new normal and the EU have to deal with the law as the Government determines it to be.

We are, after all, facing a Prime Minister, who has baldly stated he will not obey the law. We are now going to fnd out whether anything can be done about it

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sat Sep 7th, 2019 at 06:22:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Can you imagine the outcry if this was Corbyn threatening to break the law? Of course its OK if you are a Conservative. Time was when conservatism was synonymous with law and order...

Index of Frank's Diaries
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Sat Sep 7th, 2019 at 07:29:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Which law is disputed ("broken" by Mr No-deal)?

Some specificity is warranted by this discourse on Fixed Terms (enacted 2011) which may or not be the question at all forwarded to UK Supreme Court for review.

atm, I'm not reading about statutes or "common law"; I'm reading about "customs" of the HoC, regardless of EU, EC, or TEU or stipulations of voluntary or involuntary withdrawal from it (A50).

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Sat Sep 7th, 2019 at 07:52:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"Which law is disputed ("broken" by Mr No-deal)?"
That will be the Benn Act, when the Queen has given her assent on Monday, September 9. Boris or any other PM will be in violation of that on October 20th if he has not 'sought and secured' either an extension or Parliamentary approval for a no-deal Brexit.

Boris Johnson 'will be forced from power if he defies no-deal law'

The conclusions of a team of leading QCs, which have been sent to the shadow Brexit secretary, Keir Starmer, make clear that the prime minister would be declared in contempt of court if he tried to remain in No 10 while refusing to obey legislation to prevent the UK leaving the EU without a deal on 31 October. The new law is expected to gain royal assent from the Queen early next week.
....
One of the QCs who provided the unequivocal advice, Philippe Sands, told the Observer: "If the prime minister chooses not to comply with EU (Withdrawal) No 6 Act, he will be subject to an action for contempt which could, logically and as a matter of last resort, lead to imprisonment, but that has never happened and will not happen; Britain is a rule of law country, so he will comply or leave office. All other talk is bluster, as attorney general Geoffrey Cox will already have advised him."
Geoffrey Cox is the Attorney General in the current Conservative Government.

In addition Parliament can select another PM, which might be necessary to gain the approval of the EU. A new PM would be a change of government, after all. But even so, there is no assurance EU agreement will follow.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sun Sep 8th, 2019 at 09:27:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The weird thing is that Parliament may not select the new PM - that would be the Queen, on the advice of her ministers. But who could she possibly choose, except the Leader of he Opposition?

Index of Frank's Diaries
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Sun Sep 8th, 2019 at 10:30:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That is weird, but I can sort of see how it arose historically. But, in the case where a VNC has occurred, who are the Monarchy's ministers? I would think that the ministers of the fallen government would not do. But who would? And is this practice embodied in written law?

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sun Sep 8th, 2019 at 11:55:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The pre 2011 precedents, which may not now apply, were that on passage of a vote of no confidence the Prime Minister had a choice of resigning or asking the monarch for a dissolution of Parliament.

The only time in the 20th century where the PM chose to resign was in 1924, after being defeated on the vote about the King's Speech at the opening of a new Parliament. The Labour leader of the opposition then formed the first Labour minority government.

There is a reading of the Fixed Term Parliaments Act no confidence/confidence provisions, which suggests that it codifies a slightly modified version of the previous conventions. It follows that the Prime Minister has the choice of resigning or waiting for the 14 days to expire and then holding a general election. If the PM does not resign, then there is no opportunity for another member of the House of Commons to obtain a motion of confidence in their government (unless the Queen dismisses the existing PM and appoints someone else).

These provisions of the 2011 Act are inadequately drafted. Experience is throwing up multiple practical problems, which the next Parliament may have to address.

by Gary J on Mon Sep 9th, 2019 at 12:50:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes but I think  ARGeezer's question, and it is a very good one, is who advises the Queen on what course of action she should take in the event of the PM refusing to resign and being unwilling to nominate someone else to take his place.

Her Majesty normally acts on the advice of the PM, and on the advice of her Privy Council, one headed by one Rees-Mogg. How could Parliament even let her know they do not want a dissolution of Parliament but wishes to proceed with another PM?

The FTPA clearly envisages the possibility of another person being asked to lead a new government in that 14 day period, but does not specify how that can come about if the PM refuses to give way and instead seeks to wait out the 14 day period and call an election.

Suppose the PM, even if he chooses to resign, decides to nominate his favourite Minister, e.g. Dominic Raab, as the next PM even though he clearly doesn't have majority support in the House. Has the Queen got discretion in whom she appoints, and on whose advice must she rely?

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Mon Sep 9th, 2019 at 07:46:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's a good question because we have seen that the 3-person quorum of the Privy Council that went to Balmoral to advise the Queen on prorogation was, if legal, a Conservative Establishment stitch-up.

However, in this case the controversy would be much greater and more open. Limiting the Queen's advice to Ree-Smogg and two stooges, to the exclusion of the Leader of Her Majesty's Most Loyal Opposition, would cause such a noise that the very position of the monarch would be called in question. Other advisors (they exist in the upper echelons of the Civil Service and at the Palace) might well suggest that the Queen think mightily carefully before doing the muppet's bidding.

Things are going to slide, slide in all directions
Won't be nothing
Nothing you can measure anymore
L. Cohen

by john_evans (john(dot)evans(dot)et(at)gmail(dot)com) on Mon Sep 9th, 2019 at 08:42:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
To make the point I've made before - this assumes the other advisors aren't on the same side as Mogg.

IMO a Conservative/Establishment stitch-up is perfectly believable.

The one upside is that British people - against all precedent and expectation - took to the streets to protest prorogation. I think that raised some eyebrows and made a stitch-up less likely.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Sep 9th, 2019 at 10:00:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think the other point is that the Conservatives and the Establishment are no longer co-terminus... The Conservatives are turning disaster capitalism into disaster politics, which is not good for the Queen or for much of the Establishment either, whereas Corbyn has been a very convention bound leader of her Majesty's opposition.

But the one person who has embodied convention over the past 66 years is the Queen herself, to the point where, in the aftermath of Diana's death, her hidebound adherence to convention nearly destroyed the Monarchy itself. At the time her sycophantic admirer, one Tony Blair, had to take her firmly by her gloved hand and advise some concessions to popular sentiment where in her own interest, even if much to her discomfort.

What would happen if two former PM's, John Major and Tony Blair were to advise her, either privately or in public, that it was in her Majesty's interest to yield to the Will of Parliament and appoint an alternative PM? After all, she can only enter the House of Commons to deliver her Queen's Speech with the permission of the House of Commons, and it would not be unprecedented for her to be refused entry...

But the point stands: whose advice must she take if BoJo loses the confidence of the House of Commons?

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Mon Sep 9th, 2019 at 10:22:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I can't think of any finer example of the Establishment than Smuggie flanked by two top Tories. My point would be that the Establishment has slid to the chaotic right.

As to whose advice the Queen must take, the Privy Council is an obvious answer. But what form of the Privy Council? Who can influence this? Obviously, the PM, and the Lord High Snooty-Pants President of the Council. They would have to be prevented, by Parliamentary and public pressure, from pulling a fast one as at Balmoral. If Bozzer stayed on after a no-confidence vote, that would trigger an immense outcry. The Queen herself would have to understand that this was a deep constitutional crisis endangering the institution of the monarchy itself (which is said to be dear to her heart). She would have to tread carefully and consult more widely than with the quorum-of-3.

An article from The Guardian a month ago gives opposing expert views on her powers:

As the Queen's powers have been cited in the no-deal Brexit debate, constitutional experts are divided on whether she could intervene to dismiss Boris Johnson and invite a new prime minister to form a government should he lose a vote of no confidence

Doesn't offer much certainty.


Things are going to slide, slide in all directions
Won't be nothing
Nothing you can measure anymore
L. Cohen

by john_evans (john(dot)evans(dot)et(at)gmail(dot)com) on Mon Sep 9th, 2019 at 11:15:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The problem with the "UK Constitution" isn't just that it is unwritten, but that it is so unclear, and subject to so much uncertainty. It also rather places Her Majesty in an invidious position, I'm sure one would rather avoid...

Index of Frank's Diaries
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Mon Sep 9th, 2019 at 11:26:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
One would quite certainly wish to avoid invidious positions...

Unfortunately this does rather place need for fine discernment and huge responsibility on the shoulders of a 93-year-old.

Excellent argument in favour of a republic with an age ceiling for the president. That might help focus one's mind.

Things are going to slide, slide in all directions
Won't be nothing
Nothing you can measure anymore
L. Cohen

by john_evans (john(dot)evans(dot)et(at)gmail(dot)com) on Mon Sep 9th, 2019 at 11:32:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No thanks. The idea of President blair, or Major leaves me somewhat nauseous, but the idea that we might have had President Thacher makes me consider running for the loo.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Sep 10th, 2019 at 01:14:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The notion there was of a non-executive president who would just do pretty much what the Queen does now. As, roughly, in Germany or Italy now. Not an American or French president.

I can't see Bliar or Thatcher angling for a job like that.

Things are going to slide, slide in all directions
Won't be nothing
Nothing you can measure anymore
L. Cohen

by john_evans (john(dot)evans(dot)et(at)gmail(dot)com) on Tue Sep 10th, 2019 at 01:47:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
< pick teeth, suck vigorously >
I understand, sumbuddy managed to submit their candidate to the Comish roster ...

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Tue Sep 10th, 2019 at 02:23:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]


Things are going to slide, slide in all directions
Won't be nothing
Nothing you can measure anymore
L. Cohen
by john_evans (john(dot)evans(dot)et(at)gmail(dot)com) on Tue Sep 10th, 2019 at 03:56:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
My point would be that the Establishment has slid to the chaotic right.

Have I mentioned that if I regard Brexit as some sort of rebellion by the old aristocracy it makes more sense?

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Sep 9th, 2019 at 12:01:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It certainly gives a fresh and useful perspective, though not to forget the decisive role of libertarian billionaires. The English aristocracy has always tolerated the rise of sufficiently wealthy nouveaux riches into its ranks, so we could count the Murdochs and the Barclays in with them.



Things are going to slide, slide in all directions
Won't be nothing
Nothing you can measure anymore
L. Cohen

by john_evans (john(dot)evans(dot)et(at)gmail(dot)com) on Mon Sep 9th, 2019 at 01:11:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm confused.

Surely, historical precedent is that when a Prime Minister loses a vote of confidence, the Monarch consults the Leader of His/Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition.

Is this done exclusively on the advice of the repudiated PM? Or is it, rather, the automatic option?

Can John Thomas of Pfeff Hall simply refuse to do the decent thing?

Is he not only above the law, but above the Monarch?

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Mon Sep 9th, 2019 at 02:08:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And there ended the lesson is basic British constitutional law.

Index of Frank's Diaries
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Mon Sep 9th, 2019 at 03:01:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The ambiguity of the Queen's Powers could be used to her advantage in the old tradition of the Crown siding with the populace, even though that populace be divided. I suspect that, were the Queen to take the initiative, on the advise of selected council, (her choosing between the various councilors on offer), and resolving the crisis on the basis of enabling parliamentary action, that such action would redound to her credit as perhaps the crowning achievement of her long reign.

The Queen would NOT be deciding the Brexit issue. She would, instead, be providing a way for the public and Parliament to chose. Likewise, a motion by Parliament to have the Queen send a letter on behalf of Parliament requesting an extension of the Article 50 deadline would probably be accepted by the EU. The very fact of such a letter would be irrefutable proof of profound change in the UK government from its current state and a way out of a stalemate for both the UK and the EU.
 

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Mon Sep 9th, 2019 at 05:47:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And such actions would enable the situation to be resolved in a manner consistent with the constitution of the UK, such as it is.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Mon Sep 9th, 2019 at 05:52:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
they took to the streets over Iraq, and in much heavier numbers. Parliament ignored them then cos they wanted to do something else, and they'll ignore them now, for precisely the same reason.

Democracy, she is slippery

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Sep 10th, 2019 at 01:09:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Time was when the conservatives made the laws which overwhelmingly favrouted them and their peer group. So why would they break the law?

But, tax evasion wasn't invented yesterday and the tories have been breaking the spirit of the law since forever. The very origin of the word "Tory" is Irish slang for thief.

They've been quietly breaking the law whenever it suits them, laws don't really apply to the very rich, they have lawyers to explain to the courts that it wasn't really a breach of the law. Boris is carrying on in the tradition.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sun Sep 8th, 2019 at 11:57:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
nor even the body of "common law" (case law, review of statutory questions by judiciary officers in a government) with which neither the press nor its readers demonstrate passing familiarity UNTIL one of them finds his or her ass in the dock and THEN the odds are only even whether or not that "offender" impugns the licenses of both prosecutors and defense attys. For entertainment purposes only. However, "IANAL" is not an affirmative defense of westworld civilization.

I might have mentioned. More than once.

Separation of powers (within a bureaucracy): Between how many political divisions are powers distributed by UK statutes or ..."customs" denoting culture?

Also, did you know, legislators (elected representatives of gov) preface United States Code (USC) title (global scope), chapter (local scope), and section (specific app) with definitions of terms therein? BEHOLD "transparent" USC, Title 1, Ch.1.; Is that formula customary or customarily ignored by readers in the UK?

Also, Walter Lippmann, Public Opinion, colloquially, rule of man.

archived algorithm
"convoluted 18th Century language"


Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Sat Sep 7th, 2019 at 07:32:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"Walter Lippmann, Public Opinion"

Walter Lippmann would have been well positioned to come to self-serving opinions himself, having served with Edward Bernays, subsequent author of 'Propaganda', on the Creel Commission and on the Committee on Public Information during WW I. The primary problem they faced was the opposition of so many German Americans to the US entering WW I on the side of the Allies.

Bernays showed how with techniques later described in his seminal Propaganda, while Lippmann provided the justification for using said techniques in Public Opinion. They, (the government), have been doing it ever since

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sun Sep 8th, 2019 at 03:54:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Have you never read Public Opinion?

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Sun Sep 8th, 2019 at 05:43:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I have read parts. It seems an ill omen to me that he starts with Plato's image of the cave. Plato was NOT an advocate of the average person. He wanted to be the advisor to tyrants. Even the experience of being sold into slavery by one such tyrant who Plato was trying to advise did not dissuade Plato from his belief that only a ruler could see things rightly - if said ruler followed Plato's advise.

That I am on the right track with Lippmann is confirmed towards the end of chapter I when he states: "My conclusion is that public opinions must be organized for the press if they are to be sound, not by the press as it is today. This organization I conceive to be, in the first place, the task of a political science that has won its place as a formulator in advance of real decision instead of apologist, critic or reporter after the decision has been made."

Lippmann reifies the abstraction of 'Political Science' as some objective science. Political Science gives, in fact, about as successful and accurate description of the political process as US Mainstream Economics gives of the operation of the economy.  

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Tue Sep 10th, 2019 at 02:49:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The problem for progressives is that they are so for total democracy that faithful average folks have nothing to choose from but Trump, Tories.
by das monde on Tue Sep 10th, 2019 at 06:53:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
to political scientists...

Index of Frank's Diaries
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Tue Sep 10th, 2019 at 11:37:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
of opinion polls and abnormal statistical descriptions? landssakes.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Tue Sep 10th, 2019 at 02:35:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Of Political Science. Note the caps.


"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Tue Sep 10th, 2019 at 04:31:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Fortune favours the brave.

I think this is the key point about Boris. He's a public school product, stewed for a couple of decades in glorious English history, with kings and knights and manipulating politicians running civil wars and regular wars and restorations and and all sorts of adventures. A thousand years of historical excitement, pounded into his head.

My reading is that what he wants, the only thing he wants, is to be in the history books along with Henry VIII and Sir Francis Walsingham and Winston Churchill and all the other famous people. You can get there by being good or bad or corrupt or crooked, it doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter whether Brexit goes through, it doesn't matter if Cummings is imprisoned in the Tower, it doesn't matter if there are riots in the streets, it doesn't matter if Macron finally gets around to putting on his de Gaul hat. All that matters is that there be a huge ruckus of some sort and that Boris Johnson the Great is in the middle of it, doing radical stuff, pushing past the limits of what he can get away with. The goal is to get into the history books so that generations of Eton kids will know his name.

Unlike Theresa May and what's-his-name and that other one who will be relegated to the footnotes in graduate student dissertations a century from now.

by asdf on Sat Sep 7th, 2019 at 11:05:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well its all a jolly jape and a bit of a wheeze really. What are the little people getting so upset about? They're only the cannon fodder who need a bit of colour and excitement and leadership in their lives, and Boris provides the entertainment factor. Can you imagine anything more boring than Theresa May or Jeremy Corbyn running the country, all honest endeavour and sickening earnestness and do-goodery.

Boris doesn't have an honest bone in his body, but who cares if he sticks it up to the Jerries and the Frogs? The British ruling class have been making the croppies and the paddy's lie down for centuries, why change now? Whatever happens, Boris will make his money and is having his fun. Wasn't it Maggie Thatcher who said "there is no such thing as society"? It's every man for himself and let the devil take the hindmost.

The mopping up operations afterwards can be left to the civil service and military. Don't bother Boris with the details. Cummings will be fired when he has outlived his usefulness, or at least becomes more useful as a sacrificial scape goat to take the heat off Boris. And as for those tiresome MPs and their laws and the busybody Judges they want to enforce them, how many divisions have they got? At the end of the day, power comes down to cold steel and the willingness to use it.

He who dares, wins...

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Sat Sep 7th, 2019 at 11:37:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Boris as Kierkegaard's knight of faith:

When God commanded Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac, Abraham needed to go beyond mere belief, and needed to go beyond simple resignation to the loss of his son. Abraham needed to believe, in faith, that God's will would be fulfilled, and needed to believe, in faith, that his son would be saved.
by das monde on Sun Sep 8th, 2019 at 07:19:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]


Things are going to slide, slide in all directions
Won't be nothing
Nothing you can measure anymore
L. Cohen
by john_evans (john(dot)evans(dot)et(at)gmail(dot)com) on Sun Sep 8th, 2019 at 07:29:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Did Milgram cite Bible in the report of his experiment?
by das monde on Tue Sep 10th, 2019 at 06:06:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The Boris version
But the old man would not so, but slew his son,
And half the seed of Europe, one by one.
by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Sun Sep 8th, 2019 at 08:08:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't think Boris has got it in him.

Things are going to slide, slide in all directions
Won't be nothing
Nothing you can measure anymore
L. Cohen
by john_evans (john(dot)evans(dot)et(at)gmail(dot)com) on Sun Sep 8th, 2019 at 08:20:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Given the state of anti-democratic chaos in the British government, it might be advisable for the EU to expel, or at least suspend, the UK before it finally gets around to leaving of it's own volition.
Britain not only doesn't want to belong to any club that would have it for a member, it seems determined to disqualify itself for future membership.
by Andhakari on Sat Sep 7th, 2019 at 07:24:48 PM EST
UK Work and Pensions Secretary Amber Rudd has resigned from government and the cabinet saying she cannot stand by while loyal Conservatives are expelled...

Index of Frank's Diaries
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Sat Sep 7th, 2019 at 08:27:10 PM EST
How many times is this?

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Sun Sep 8th, 2019 at 02:09:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In a devastating resignation letter, she accused the prime minister of "an assault on decency and democracy" and "an act of political vandalism" for sacking 21 of her Tory colleagues for backing a parliamentary bill to stop a no-deal Brexit.

Rudd told Johnson she had joined his cabinet "in good faith accepting that no deal had to be on the table". She added: "However, I no longer believe leaving with a deal is the government's main objective."

While she could see the government was "expending a lot of energy" preparing for no deal, she had not seen "the same level of intensity go into our talks with the European Union" and updates from his office had "not, regretfully, provided me with the reassurances I sought".

Pfeffle of Pfeff Hall will soon drive into a horsepond. His talk of defying the law is just more bluster. No amount of posing with a bull and trying to make Churchillian grimaces will cut it.

The real question is what happens when he resigns?

Things are going to slide, slide in all directions
Won't be nothing
Nothing you can measure anymore
L. Cohen

by john_evans (john(dot)evans(dot)et(at)gmail(dot)com) on Sun Sep 8th, 2019 at 06:18:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Will the Queen have any option but to appoint Corbyn PM?

Will the Lib Dems and Tory dissidents then have any option but to work with Corbyn to secure an A.50 extension and organise a second referendum?

Given that will take some time and require debate as to what the options on the ballot paper will be, does that not mean Corbyn will likely be PM until at least the Spring?

And who will the Tories elect as new leader? Gove, Hunt, Javid? Give me a break... Farage will clean up, and that will be the end of the Conservative party...

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Sun Sep 8th, 2019 at 11:15:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Boris is killing the Conservative Party anyway. The further he wades into lies and skulduggery, the more centrist/Remainer Conservatives will withdraw support, to which his response, we have seen, is to unleash a Cummings purge on them - or probably, like Amber Rudd, they will resign the whip themselves. The further the Tories loyal to him follow him into ultra-right national-populism (isn't fascism a shorter term for the same thing?), the more they will resemble the BXP. Warning: watch what happened to the French historic conservatives when they were led further right (by Sarkozy, more recently by Wauquiez) in an attempt to fish in the Front National's waters. Shrinking importance, loss of relevance and governmental status, blitzed in elections. Voters prefer the real thing to the ersatz.

As for your other questions, my crystal ball just conked out. I think, however, it would be normal that there be discussions with a view to forming a government, before the Queen received advice as to whom to appoint PM. Corbyn would naturally be in a position of force in any such negotiations.

Things are going to slide, slide in all directions
Won't be nothing
Nothing you can measure anymore
L. Cohen

by john_evans (john(dot)evans(dot)et(at)gmail(dot)com) on Sun Sep 8th, 2019 at 11:43:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Boris Johnson has been told to `obey the law' over Brexit in an extraordinary warning issued by his own justice secretary.

Robert Buckland scotched speculation that he would follow Amber Rudd by resigning, despite ministers preparing to legally challenge parliament's instruction to stop a crash-out from the EU.

But he also revealed his concerns about the prime minister, by tweeting: "We have spoken over the past 24 hours regarding the importance of the Rule of Law, which I as Lord Chancellor have taken an oath to uphold."

The pro-EU justice secretary is one of four cabinet ministers on `resignation watch', as No 10 ratchets up the rhetoric in a Brexit showdown heading for the courts.

Buckland is also, as Lord Chancellor, an important player in the Royal Commission that should automatically give royal assent to the anti-no-deal Bill tomorrow.

Things are going to slide, slide in all directions
Won't be nothing
Nothing you can measure anymore
L. Cohen

by john_evans (john(dot)evans(dot)et(at)gmail(dot)com) on Sun Sep 8th, 2019 at 03:00:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Boris doesn't strike me as the type to resign.  


She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
by ATinNM on Sun Sep 8th, 2019 at 03:09:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Don't fall for the hype. His backbone is made of bullshit.

Things are going to slide, slide in all directions
Won't be nothing
Nothing you can measure anymore
L. Cohen
by john_evans (john(dot)evans(dot)et(at)gmail(dot)com) on Sun Sep 8th, 2019 at 03:12:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yet Amber Rudd had no problem implementing policies that required terminally ill cancer patients to seek work to continue receiving assistance.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sun Sep 8th, 2019 at 03:42:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
When you see people described as moderate centrist One Nation Tories, you should bear in mind where the definition of "centre" has moved to in our "modern" neo-liberal world. The fact that even these people are rebelling against Boris tells you where he and his disaster capitalist cabal have moved to. Basically we are seeing a mainstream capitalist rebellion against disaster capitalism led by Jeremy Corbyn. Who'd have thunk?

Index of Frank's Diaries
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Sun Sep 8th, 2019 at 04:15:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
UK's Labour to crack down on finance bonuses if it wins power
McDonnell said if Labour won power one of his first moves as finance minister would be to explore ways of cracking down on extravagant payments to bankers and others in the financial sector.
Smith to join Liberal Democrats party
Smith was among the seven lawmakers to quit the Labour Party in February over leader Jeremy Corbyn's approach to Brexit and a row over anti-Semitism.


Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Sun Sep 8th, 2019 at 04:56:28 AM EST
by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Sun Sep 8th, 2019 at 05:13:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yeah, attacking bankers' bonuses is even worse than comparing Israel's treatment of Palestinians to the German treatment of Jews during the Holocaust. And the one leads to the other, you know.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sun Sep 8th, 2019 at 03:31:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
DUP Donaldson suggests Republic of Ireland could rejoin Commonwealth
[INCONTINENCE ALERT]

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Sun Sep 8th, 2019 at 06:28:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Labour to win snap election if held after Brexit deadline, poll finds

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet
by Melanchthon on Sun Sep 8th, 2019 at 03:08:14 PM EST
It's a trap!

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Sun Sep 8th, 2019 at 05:40:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I haven't believed a poll for some time. They're barely worth a candle when only two parties are in contention, but with 3, 4 or even 5 in any constituency under FPTP
they ain't worth spit

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sun Sep 8th, 2019 at 05:46:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Brexit graph by Jon Worth on Twitter

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

by Melanchthon on Sun Sep 8th, 2019 at 03:42:48 PM EST
Jon Worth has headaches so other people don't have to!

Things are going to slide, slide in all directions
Won't be nothing
Nothing you can measure anymore
L. Cohen
by john_evans (john(dot)evans(dot)et(at)gmail(dot)com) on Sun Sep 8th, 2019 at 04:04:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Varadkar to discuss possibility of Northern Ireland-only backstop with Johnson
Taoiseach Leo Varadkar has said that he will discuss the possibility of a Northern Ireland-only backstop with the British prime minister Boris Johnson when he comes to Dublin for the first meeting between the two on Monday morning.

While keen to emphasise that negotiations on Brexit can only take place between the UK Government and the EU taskforce, Mr Varadkar told journalists at Dublin Port on Sunday that he was willing to see if there was common ground on a "Northern Ireland specific" solution, something which has been raised by Mr Johnson in recent days.

---

Mr Varadkar said that he will discuss the possibility of a Northern Ireland-only backstop as a solution to the Brexit stalemate with Mr Johnson, but disputed that there was any significant progress being made in talks between the EU and the UK, as Mr Johnson and several of his ministers have claimed.

"If that's what being said that's a very optimistic assessment of where we stand," he said. "I don't think it would be shared by any of the other 27 member governments."

"I do though look forward to meeting Prime Minister Johnson tomorrow, I don't expect any big breakthroughs but I do think it's an opportunity for us to establish a relationship, to see what common ground might exist because I do believe that both governments, and all governments, do want there to be a deal and also to talk about Northern Ireland where we've a shared desire to have the institutions up and running again."

Seeing no EU heads of government are prepared to go to Downing St., Johnson has had to bite the bullet and travel to meet the leader of a minor EU member state. No doubt there will be some thumping of tables, but the Irish government has laid out their requirements very clearly, to the chagrin of the DUP who are absolutely opposed to N. Ireland remaining in "an economic zone" with the Republic despite the fact that many people think that could give them the best of both worlds, access to both the Single and UK markets.

Losing the DUP's 10 MPs support would be the least of Boris' problems at this stage - he is down over 20 MPs as it is - but a N. Ireland only backstop would give him the opportunity to come up with a deal which doesn't tie Great Britain to the EU Market and Customs regulations indefinitely.

It is doubtful enough Labour MPs would vote for any deal Boris could come up with at this stage but they might support putting Boris' deal to the people in a referendum where the other choice is Remain. The Brexit party would go apocalyptic as they favour no deal whatsoever, but do they really care about N. Ireland?

This is Boris' last chance of surviving as Prime Minister...

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Sun Sep 8th, 2019 at 07:43:25 PM EST
Yet here you are waiting for EU Council Judgment Day.

There is only one Withdrawal Agreement. That "deal" already stipulates GFA open border (persons) and (customs) cooperation between IE and UK ("NI"): The GFA has no period limit, AFAIK, therefore another colossal British  malaprop, "backstop," is timeless until vacated by terms of that treaty.

Nothing about UK politics has changed, not even the false dichotomies of "union" borders or government and legislature, manufactured by Tories in memoriam to alienate its domestic constituencies.

Stamp it INSUFFICIENT PROGRESS.

Regardless of WA ratification, change of PMs, UK voluntary or involuntary separation from the TEU 31 Oct or thereafter Johnson presents no

opportunity to come up with a deal which doesn't tie Great Britain to the EU Market and Customs regulations indefinitely.
no "face saving"--was it?--gesture of reconciliation with either equally psychotic conservatives and manqué opposition MPs who rejected A.50 revoke on a proverbial silver platter, rejected a snap parliamentary election.

I weep for climate "crisis" activists, sometimes.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Sun Sep 8th, 2019 at 08:50:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I have no doubt that the EU Council would sign for May's accord with a NI-only backstop, and Great Britain outside the customs union.

It's indeed Boris's only chance to remain as PM... But only in the interim, until the early election.

Because he can not recover a majority in the House of Commons. Even if he offered the whip to the expelled Tories (and even if they agreed to be whipped by him again, which is a long shot), he won't have the DUP.

So, no confidence, and new elections after the Brexit transition begins, 31st October?


It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Mon Sep 9th, 2019 at 08:28:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Boris could obey the law and send a letter requesting an extension, and send another letter at the same time saying he really wants a crash-out?

This idea has been floated here and elsewhere. Here's what an authority (ex-Supreme Court) says about that:

A former Supreme Court justice has also said it would not be legal for Boris Johnson to apply for a Brexit extension while simultaneously trying to get the EU to reject it in a second letter.

Lord Sumption was asked if it would be legal for the PM to do so.

He told BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "No, of course it wouldn't. The Bill, or Act as it's about to become, says that he's got to apply for an extension. Not only has he got to send the letter, he's got to apply for an extension.

"To send the letter and then try to neutralise it seems to me, plainly, a breach of the Act. What you've got to realise is the courts are not very fond of loopholes."

File under more bluster from Bozzer.


Things are going to slide, slide in all directions
Won't be nothing
Nothing you can measure anymore
L. Cohen

by john_evans (john(dot)evans(dot)et(at)gmail(dot)com) on Mon Sep 9th, 2019 at 08:30:47 AM EST
Boris's presser
There are three questions to resolve, he [Boris] says.
  1. Can they unsure that unchecked movement of goods and people, and cattle, continues at the border? Johnson says he thinks the answer is yes.
  2. Can they maintain the Belfast agreement? Johnson says he thinks the answer is yes.
  3. Can we protect the economic unity of Ireland. Again, Johnson says he thinks the answer is yes.

Spot the omission from this list...

(Hint : it's cold and wet)

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Mon Sep 9th, 2019 at 09:40:20 AM EST
... it's the Irish Sea, new customs border.
i.e. insofar as Varadkar and Johnson seem to suggest there is a rapprochement with respect to a workable border solution, then it involves selling the DUP down the [river] Lagan.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II
by eurogreen on Mon Sep 9th, 2019 at 10:25:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I do think it is significant that Boris has started to adopt the Irish Government's language on the issue - referring to economic unity on the Island of Ireland. What can that mean other than a common trade and customs area, i.e. a de facto retention of N. Ireland within the CUSM. No mention of just sanitary and phyto sanitory controls on the movement of live animals across the Irish sea, he seems to have accepted that any solution must encompass all cross border trade.

I don't think sufficient Labour MPs will rebel to make up for his loss of the DUP, some expelled Tory MPs, and everyone else to get that deal across the line in the House of Commons. However mindful that the House of Commons is gaining a reputation for saying no to everything and yes to very little, Corbyn might offer his support for a referendum to put the deal to the people to make the final decision. Corbyn would then campaign against the deal while supporting the right of the people to make the final decision.

A second referendum would, of course, require another A.50 extension, drive the Brexit party mad and split the Leave vote in the referendum and subsequent general election. Job done as far as Corbyn is concerned...

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Mon Sep 9th, 2019 at 10:43:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And by the way, to address the "democratic deficit" of N. Ireland being subject to rules it has no say in formulating, the GFA already provides a solution - the much neglected North South Ministerial Council established under the GFA. Any divergence from EU rules would have to be by consensus - as it would necessitate border controls unless all of Ireland withdrew from the CUSM. Not going to happen.

Index of Frank's Diaries
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Mon Sep 9th, 2019 at 10:47:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The controlling BREXIT legislation is European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018
Devolution 10. Continuation of North-South co-operation and the prevention of new border arrangements

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Mon Sep 9th, 2019 at 03:40:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If I were Boris, given that I have no majority anyway, I would shaft the DUP.

Things are going to slide, slide in all directions
Won't be nothing
Nothing you can measure anymore
L. Cohen
by john_evans (john(dot)evans(dot)et(at)gmail(dot)com) on Mon Sep 9th, 2019 at 11:18:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This has been the long game being played by the Irish Government all along, and the DUP have not exactly been great at winning friends and influencing people in either Dublin or Westminster...

Index of Frank's Diaries
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Mon Sep 9th, 2019 at 11:36:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I read his comments about a single-Ireland economy as heading in that direction
by asdf on Mon Sep 9th, 2019 at 11:56:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
As we have already said
The Criminal Bar Association has condemned suggestions from the government that it might try to ignore the law saying the PM would have to request a Brexit extension by 19 October, unless Boris Johnson either agrees a deal or gets MPs to vote for no deal. This is from the CBA's chair, Caroline Goodwin:

As the CBA our role is not to say `remain' or `leave' but part of our role is to explain the law - criminal law - and play our part in upholding the rule of law. Standing up for the rule of law underpins our civil society - the economy, justice system, societal cohesion.

In or out, the EU, a government that stands up for the rule of law acts in the best interests of the people - parliament included. Any government - the executive - which ignores the rule of law and actively seeks to break the law undermines the entire justice system, opens the door wide open to mob rule and very quickly to anarchy.

How can a government on the one hand pledge to unleash a `reign of terror' on criminals when its own leadership threatens to break the law?

We cannot expect people not to rob, rape and murder when a government declares it may break the law. We cannot lay rape to the rule of law.



Index of Frank's Diaries
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Mon Sep 9th, 2019 at 10:56:45 AM EST


Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Mon Sep 9th, 2019 at 03:26:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Another juicy bit of constitutional news from the weekend :
Conservatives to run a candidate against Bercow

Convention is that the Speaker resigns from his party when selected as such, and the major parties don't run candidates against him. The Conservatives seek to punish him for being loyal to Parliament, and democracy, rather than to the government.

Shitloads of precedent and gentlemen's agreements are being tipped out the Westminster windows. The UK urgently needs a written constitution, because nobody will ever trust anybody, ever again.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Mon Sep 9th, 2019 at 02:15:33 PM EST
A new law designed to stop the government forcing through a no-deal has reached the statute book.

The granting of royal assent for the legislation was announced by the Lord Speaker in the House of Lords, ahead of the suspension or prorogation of parliament.

The new Act requires a delay to Brexit beyond October 31 unless a divorce deal is approved or parliament agrees to leaving the EU without one by October 19.

In other news, Bercow has announced he will quit as Speaker on October 31st. 4/5 on favourite to replace him is Labour MP Lindsay Hoyle.

Things are going to slide, slide in all directions
Won't be nothing
Nothing you can measure anymore
L. Cohen

by john_evans (john(dot)evans(dot)et(at)gmail(dot)com) on Mon Sep 9th, 2019 at 03:50:10 PM EST
I've posted European Union (Withdrawal) (No. 6) Bill (HC Bill 433)

Yet here one sees that yella sheet opposition does not. Instead leaving readers to search for

the "surrender bill"
Incidentally, I read the full TORYGRAPH article, "Boris Johnson set to ["]defy["] the law rather than ask for Brexit delay," before being booted out of my free 30-day "trial".

Owen insinuates that Mr No-Deal will submit the HoC statutory FORM LETTER to EU Council president WITH personal attachment (syn. annex, appendix, proviso, rational, reasoning, explanation) to the FORM LETTER statutory requested "exit date." This piece may or may not be a derogatory or affirmative expression of SUFFICIENT PROGRESS by UK parliament toward ratification of the WA or "other purposes," as Anglo-merican legislators are fond of saying. Owen suspects the former.

In any case, the truth is nearly always an affirmative defense at civil and criminal trial under "English" law.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Mon Sep 9th, 2019 at 04:43:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Guardian version, "Boris Johnson 'sabotage' letter to EU 'would break law' "

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Mon Sep 9th, 2019 at 11:20:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Speaker Bercow has, to use a slightly unparliamentary phrase, shafted the Tories and Boris Johnson.

One of the attractions for Johnson of an early election is that it would allow the next House of Commons to pick a new Speaker. If there was a large Tory majority, it would allow, perhaps, for a more compliant, sympathetic Speaker to be selected, one less inclined to allow the Commons to take control of its affairs; and one more willing to allow ministers to exercise their usual prerogatives. More of a Boris stooge, in other words.

But by standing down earlier than was strictly necessary, and symbolically on the putative Brexit Day of 31 October, Bercow will ensure that the next Speaker of the Commons will be elected by the current "Remainer" parliament.

Given that the custom is for the larger parties to tend to take it in turns to provide a Speaker, and that Bercow was (nominally) a Conservative, a Labour member would seem to be well placed to become the next choice - perhaps one of Bercow's current deputies, Lindsay Hoyle, or the backbencher Chris Bryant. Of the two it is Mr Bryant who would be the bolder, Bercowesque choice; but also one that could not be faulted on any objective grounds.



Things are going to slide, slide in all directions
Won't be nothing
Nothing you can measure anymore
L. Cohen
by john_evans (john(dot)evans(dot)et(at)gmail(dot)com) on Mon Sep 9th, 2019 at 04:50:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
RABID right-wingers for whom Goering was the bleeding-heart weak link in the Nazi party have claimed John Bercow is politically biased.

MPs and media alike have condemned the retiring Speaker as partisan and hypocritical while adding that if Reichsmarshall Goering had shown more steel Britain could have been part of a united Europe decades ago.

Denys Finch Hatton, MP for Gloucester, said: "Bercow used to be a Tory. But it's not us that's moved far, far right to the point of considering Vlad the Impaler too soft on people.



Things are going to slide, slide in all directions
Won't be nothing
Nothing you can measure anymore
L. Cohen
by john_evans (john(dot)evans(dot)et(at)gmail(dot)com) on Tue Sep 10th, 2019 at 11:38:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]


Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Tue Sep 10th, 2019 at 02:41:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Check the source....
by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Tue Sep 10th, 2019 at 02:48:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
brexit-latest-news
One theory doing the rounds in Dublin is that Boris Johnson may pull a Northern Ireland only backstop out of bag at the last minute as a means of forcing a Brexit deal through parliament in between 17 October and 31 October.

The idea was mooted early on in Brexit talks but famously dropped after opposition from the DUP which accused Theresa May of trying to break up the union of the United Kingdom by creating regulatory checks down the Irish sea.

But Johnson's proposal for an all-island agriculture zone is one of the key elements of the backstop and now that the DUP no longer has the leverage it had because of the changed arithmetic, some believe this is where the landing zone is.



"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet
by Melanchthon on Mon Sep 9th, 2019 at 03:59:30 PM EST
You beat me to it.

Things are going to slide, slide in all directions
Won't be nothing
Nothing you can measure anymore
L. Cohen
by john_evans (john(dot)evans(dot)et(at)gmail(dot)com) on Mon Sep 9th, 2019 at 04:02:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
See my suggestion for Boris above.

Things are going to slide, slide in all directions
Won't be nothing
Nothing you can measure anymore
L. Cohen
by john_evans (john(dot)evans(dot)et(at)gmail(dot)com) on Mon Sep 9th, 2019 at 04:04:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
pull a Northern Ireland only backstop out of bag
So now the yella sheet opposition is resurrecting "May's deal" negotiating "strategy" ... after conclusion of the "negotiating period" AND passage of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018.

brill.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Mon Sep 9th, 2019 at 04:16:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Scottish Court of Session has ruled the prorogation illegal

  • Some claim that parliament can now immediately reassemble.
  • The Speaker's office advises that Parliament can only assemble on the government's initiative.
  • The government is appealing to the UK High Court.

In other news :
Farage offers an election pact to Bojo, where the Brexit party would not run against Conservative MPs, but having a free run in 80-90 constituencies, with the explicit aim of wiping out Labour.

Which underlines the fact that in case of a negotiated Brexit before an election, it's the Boris party that gets wiped out.

Boris, meet rock and hard place. Or Scylla and Charybdis, as he may prefer.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Wed Sep 11th, 2019 at 01:13:31 PM EST
I'm never much of an optimist when it comes to court challenges to political decisions. Senior Judges are, by definition, pillars of the establishment, and the more senior they are, the more establishment orientated they are likely to be.

In the absence of clear constitutional or statutory guidelines as to when and why Parliament may be prorogued, most Judges would, I suspect, give the benefit of any doubt to the Government as the body properly authorised to make such decisions.

So this decision by the most senior Scottish Court really ups the ante. It has flat out said the government prorogued Parliament for the purposes of preventing proper democratic scrutiny of its decision making and to enable a no deal Brexit against the wishes of Parliament.

Of course the government will appeal this decision to the Supreme Court in London. No doubt mindful of previous tabloid abuse that judges who upheld challenges to how Brexit is being pursued are traitors, the Supreme Court may be less inclined to challenge the government.

But the battle lines have been drawn. Scotland no longer has confidence in the Government of the UK to act properly and impartially in the interests of all. Johnson is no longer a legitimate Prime Minister of Scotland.

Any normal Prime Minister would already have resigned in disgrace. There is no indication from Downing Street he will do so even if the Supreme Court finds he has acted unlawfully. The law only applies to the little people, apparently...

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Wed Sep 11th, 2019 at 06:41:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Of course the BBC world news leads with migrants crossing the Channel and whether there is life on some distant XO planet

Index of Frank's Diaries
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Wed Sep 11th, 2019 at 07:08:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm going to bet the UK Supreme Court finds the prorogation legal.  The Scots are correct: it is a slimy political maneuver and So What?  That doesn't make it illegal.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
by ATinNM on Wed Sep 11th, 2019 at 10:40:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
As Oui says, the bigger issue is that he misled the Queen. Again, probably not illegal, but what if One comes out and says One doesn't appreciate being misled?

No doubt Boris will claim she may have misunderstood...
(subtext - she's 93 after all)

I don't think the bedrock of Conservative party will appreciate the Queen being abused in this way.

Indeed, what if One decided to abdicate in consequence?

Any other PM would have resigned in disgrace, but this PM knows no boundaries. Quite like Trump, in that regard.

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Wed Sep 11th, 2019 at 10:52:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think you overestimate the median degree of the sanity in the Tory Party.

The bedrock of the Conservative Party is also 93, or thereabouts, and certainly no less confused.

Polls suggest they're perfectly happy with any law-breaking as long as they get their mythical Brexit.

 

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Sep 12th, 2019 at 07:36:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The Tory Party membership, perhaps, but they're still going to have to pick up at least 30% of the vote on top of whatever the Brexit Party can garner, and insulting the Queen is not the way to go if that is your objective...

Index of Frank's Diaries
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Thu Sep 12th, 2019 at 09:08:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

As @BorderIrish remarked, it would be funny if one day, that bridge ended up joining two EU countries at the UK"s expense.
by Bernard on Wed Sep 11th, 2019 at 06:56:12 PM EST
No doubt he will then try to sell us the bridge, in the form of taking over some proportion of the UK national debt. Good luck with that.

But this is a typical Johnson "dead cat" strategy.

Stop people talking about what you would rather they didn't discuss (a N. Ireland only Backstop) by throwing a dead cat on the table and saying: "Oh look, a dead cat! Let's discuss that instead!"

A Bridge from nowhere in Scotland to nowhere in Ireland has about as much chance of becoming a reality as Johnson has of reviving a dead cat, when the whole point is that it is dead in the first place...

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Thu Sep 12th, 2019 at 09:13:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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