Welcome to European Tribune. It's gone a bit quiet around here these days, but it's still going.
The proposition that Frank poses whether or not to "dismiss many of these objections on the basis that they represent an attitude of prioritising" [or discriminating between] personal liberty and societal responsibilities.

Which are presently measured by the number of persons who voluntarily accept "vaccine" injection, ostensibly to retard communicability (vol, val) of SARS-CoV-2 viruses and the severity of associated diseases, COVID-19.

The dialogue between those who refuse the vaccine and our medical and political systems is one that should be encouraged

Despite 72% vaccination, Frank reports daily infection rate is high--regardless of vaccinated status and presumable hospitalization-- and mortality is dramatically reduced over all, by comparison to 2020 statistical descriptions of "recoveries" etc.

It is not unreasonable to presume any one in the cohort continues to seek medical treatment of symptoms precisely because mortality indicates, above all infection, ergo disease progression, prognosis is not terminal. If amateur and expert representatives of the twin domains of "elite" ahh rules will debate etiology and philogenetic trajectoris--because there is no cure and there is no mandatory standard treatment to alleviate, much less cure, common comorbid diseases caused by SARS-CoV-2-- why musn't the hoi polio?

by Cat on Sat Aug 21st, 2021 at 06:35:43 PM EST
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by Oui (Oui) on Sat Aug 21st, 2021 at 07:32:09 PM EST
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My earlier comment:

RIVM Dutch stats Infections at a very low rate and limited to young age group.

On vaccinations, the EU-27 countries are likely in better shape than the UK or USA. Lower number of anti-vaxxers helps. Group of age 18+ number of full vaccination is 75% and 85% with single jab. Due to delay in start and delivery of vaccines, protection will last through fall to end of year. Booster shots will be available for the most vulnerable.

In addition, there's likely an overlap due to protection of 1,9 million COVID-19 cases.

ECDC vaccine tracker

Hospital Survey

The vaccination status of 320 of the 370 COVID-19 patients admitted to hospital in the week from 12 July to 18 July, is known. Almost three quarters (74%) of the COVID-19 patients in the sample were unvaccinated or only partially vaccinated. 15% of the patients had been fully vaccinated, but that includes the 5% who were known to have a weak immune system, for example due to an immune disorder or the use of medication that weakens the immune system. For 11% of the COVID-19 patients insufficient data was available.

Data The Netherlands

'Sapere aude'

by Oui (Oui) on Sat Aug 21st, 2021 at 08:14:18 PM EST
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'Sapere aude'
by Oui (Oui) on Sun Aug 22nd, 2021 at 04:21:03 AM EST
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It is not a question of whether there is a duty to care that applies to medical personnel and hospitals, it is a question of cognitive dissonance wherein somebody claims they have no use for the medical establishment until they need the medical establishment.

Similar cases are not supporting social security taxes while cashing monthly social security checks, not wanting to pay car insurance while putting a car insurance claim, not liking socialized water supply systems while drinking water, etc.

by asdf on Sat Aug 21st, 2021 at 11:34:54 PM EST
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It has always struck me as odd that creationists, climate science deniers and covid conspiracy theorists all deny the science underlying certain phenomena while being more than happy to enjoy the benefits of science in every other part of life, whether that be driving cars, using the internet, computers, microwaves, aeroplanes etc.

How can science be getting it so wrong on evolution, climate change and vaccines while getting it so right on everything else?

Or could this just be a case of agreeing with science when it suits your agenda and denying it when it doesn't? Perish the thought!

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Sun Aug 22nd, 2021 at 12:01:37 AM EST
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While there are undoubtedly "nutty professors" and extreme right political activists seeking to exploit the pandemic for their own agendas, I am suggesting it is counter-productive to dismiss all vaccine refusers as "luneys and loopers" and that they deserve a respectful engagement with competent medical professionals.

Some may be persuaded to vaccinate, others not, but it damages our political culture if significant subsections of society are dismissed  as Covidiots.

Vaccinations are ultimately voluntary in pretty much every jurisdiction I am aware of, and I don't think that should change. I have absolutely no issue with the hoi polloi discussing " aetiology and phylogenetic trajectories" if they are so minded and the whole point of my letter is to encourage any dialogue between refusers and medical professionals to continue.

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Sat Aug 21st, 2021 at 11:52:42 PM EST
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Does Ireland not vaccinate its kids against TB and polio? Do you not need to be vaccinated against common conditions to travel to certain countries?

There is nothing to "engage" with here. Vaccination triggers a certain kind of personality disorder - the disorder that frets about immigrants, gays, 5G and other experiences that right-wing authoritarians experience as both disgusting and invasively disempowering.

There is no dialogue about this, because this triggering is irrational. There is no chance whatsoever that these people will change their minds, because their minds are not operating in a fact-based way.

But that's not even the problem. The problem is that this triggering can be farmed and amplified for grift and for political ends. That should not be allowed in a functioning democracy, because it very predictably leads to violence and instability as a triggered and irrational minority is weaponised to cause mass harm.

This is exactly what happened in the UK with Brexit, and the same tendency is being mobilised against climate change measures.

Covid denial is just a recruitment tool for the people who profit from this.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sun Aug 22nd, 2021 at 08:53:58 AM EST
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Covers all bases 🙂 in studio discussions a virologist asked the mother of a teen who herself wanted to receive vaccination, where she got her coronavirus information ... w/o blinking she declared she didn't trust science or the media ... she finds it on the Internet.

'Sapere aude'
by Oui (Oui) on Sun Aug 22nd, 2021 at 09:20:12 AM EST
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Vaccination is not a legal requirement in Ireland but generally receives near 100% compliance because it hasn't been controversial until recent times. Minority concerns about links between vaccination and autism are the nearest thing we have had to a controversy on the issue until the Covid pandemic kicked in.

Making vaccination compulsory would only give oxygen to these concerns and make compliance less likely. You can argue that those who refuse vaccination are freeloading on the herd immunity provided by those who do, but what's new in that in right wing circles?

I haven't seen any real data on this, but my impression is that the vast majority of those who expressed concerns about vaccination ended up getting the jab following a discussion with their medical advisors.

Most people are persuadable, once heir concerns are respected and addressed, and it wouldn't surprise me if many of the hard core nut-jobs opposing vaccination in public have quietly been vaccinated in private.

My bigger concern is that GDPR rules are being interpreted in Ireland as preventing an employer from asking whether their employees have been vaccinated. If I were still working for a company I would want to know which of my colleagues had been vaccinated, and which not.

You are correct that vaccination certs are required to travel to certain countries but that is their requirement, not ours, and not quite the same thing as making vaccination compulsory for everyone.

What has been mildly controversial is the use of EU vaccination certs or passports to regulate access to indoor dining or events in public spaces. I have no problem with this. The right to eat indoors in a restaurant is not an unalienable human right and I am more likely to go if I know all other diners and staff have been vaccinated.

You are correct that some (v. small) extreme right wing groups have sought to "farm" public anxiety about vaccination and the pandemic which is partly why I wrote the letter to the editor and this blog. Maintaining a respectful dialogue with those who have concerns is the best way to prevent them swelling the numbers of the far right.

Ireland has traditionally had a very rebellious and anti-establishment political culture. What has been the most remarkable (to me) has been the incredibly high degree of public compliance with mask wearing, social distancing and congregational rules and the high uptake of vaccination offers. Let not a few headline grabbing breaches fool you.

I want this largely consensual process of political and public health decision making to continue - it is the best protection for us all, a few covidiots notwithstanding. Dolores Cahill has almost zero following in Ireland, and long may it remain so.

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Sun Aug 22nd, 2021 at 12:11:53 PM EST
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Lets review the fact-based the archive of off-label uses for BCG, summarily rejected by the experts, which paved the way for two (2) mRNA "investigational" drugs and Non-Pharmaceutical Intervention (NPI) public relations campaigns.
by Cat on Sun Aug 22nd, 2021 at 12:13:23 PM EST
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I'm not an anti-vaxxer in any way or form - everyone in my family has had both of the shots.

That said, there's a pronounced difference between TB and polio vaccines and Covid vaccines. The previous provide long-term (10-15 years), sterilizing immunity (you don't spread the virus) besides protecting the vaccinated.

Current Covid vaccines only protect the vaccinated from the serious infection. Vaccinated person can still get infected and spread the virus (and if totally asymptomatic be quite efficient spreader). And as the need for booster shots tells us, the immunological protection starts to diminish in 4-6 months (as far as we now).

We should not talk about herd immunity when it comes to Covid vaccines. They protect individuals from the worst and everyone should be vaccinated, but epidemiologically speaking they don't seem to prevent transmission or even slow it down much.

by pelgus on Sun Aug 22nd, 2021 at 12:52:38 PM EST
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COVID-19 Vaccine Breakthrough Case Investigation and Reporting
As of May 1, 2021, CDC ["]transitioned["] from monitoring all reported vaccine breakthrough cases to focus on identifying and investigating only hospitalized or fatal cases due to any cause.
APsplainin Fauci herd immunity slide rule
This page will no longer be updated after April 12, 2021"; "estimated biweekly proportions of the most common SARS-CoV-2 lineages, a/o 5/22/21

d/b/a "best practices"

by Cat on Sun Aug 22nd, 2021 at 01:43:29 PM EST
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