Mandatory vaccination | 180 comments (180 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: That's an awful analogy. (4.00 / 3)

No.

The first job of a vaccine is to protect vaccinated individuals from hospitalisation and death. The Covid vaccines are pretty good at that.

The second job is to limit the spread and eventually create herd immunity. The Covid vaccines are mediocre at that, not least because Covid mutates quickly. But they do lower the r value, which is a win, even if they don't reduce it to zero.

Vaccination is a collective issue. No question.

The fact that the far right has weaponised vaccination hesitancy, with the result that devotees are filling up hospitals and dying - often pleading for vaccination when it's too late - should also be a clue.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed Jan 19th, 2022 at 09:24:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's an awful analogy. (4.00 / 3)

The first job of health care administration in a pandemic is to limit the transmission as much as possible. And a vaccination that is at best mediocre - against delta already useless, if you go by latest research - is a very bad choice as the main tool.

Especially if the messaging is done as wrong as it has been, at least in here. Given the at best mediocre performance of the vaccine in limiting transforming the virus, vaccinated people have - thanks to the passport - engaged in very risky behavior regarding the pandemic because they though they were safe and couldn't even transfer the disease. Many still do, even if the message is changing.

Then take into consideration that many break-trough infections in vaccinated are asymptotic, so even if they wanted to self-quarantine, they wouldn't know they should.

tldr; non-sterilizing, non-prophylactic but "merely" a therapeutic vaccine was not, isn't and will not be the way out of this pandemic. It is using the last line of defense as the first and only weapon. Just sayin'.

Btw, the news from Israel says that the fourth "booster" is useless against omicron. And elsewhere I heard (in the news, from officials) that the third vaccine gives only a few weeks worth of protection. At this point these vaccines are basically just kicking the can down the road and praying for a miracle.

Sorry about the rant. I'll face the corner now.

by pelgus on Wed Jan 19th, 2022 at 12:28:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's an awful analogy. (none / 0)

The approach taken by China seems to have worked pretty well so far. If people start testing positive, lock everybody down.

Short term problem is this approach infringes individual freedom. Long term advantage is when a variant as transmissible as omicron but as deadly as ebola comes along, countries with strict lockdown procedures will survive while the "free" countries will lose half their population.

by asdf on Wed Jan 19th, 2022 at 03:47:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's an awful analogy. (none / 1)

Israel has a large population of ignorant hick religious types who have large families and refuse to get vaccinated.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Wed Jan 19th, 2022 at 04:28:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's an awful analogy. (none / 1)

I remember pre-corona that some scientists were starting to be worried that mass tourism and the reduction of time of some long distance flights with the opening of new roads meant that the flu virus would circulate in a very intense way all the time: from the southern hemisphere in Summer and from the northern one in Winter. This was a cause of alarm.
Not to mention mass farming and the various cattle and other animals pests we've had regularly.

by Tom2 on Wed Jan 19th, 2022 at 08:27:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's an awful analogy. (none / 1)

"The Covid vaccines are pretty good at that."
I think it is a mistake to compare them.
AZ in the UK, used in majority, on an island, produces a herd immunity that cannot be achieved in places that have used multiple vaccines using different technologies.
I think the scores of countries that have used the most classical methods demonstrate that (China, UAE, Turkey, Morocco). Japan made the choice of allowing only Pfizer probably with some reasons.
In Israel and France, data show that on elderly populations, it is 50/50 between vaxxed and unvaxxed hospitalization, against related to co-morbidities.
And we'll never know if a simple vaccine such as boosting doses of vitamin d for everyone everyday would not have made the trick. Remember that fifty percent of all deaths in the EU were in care homes, i.e. if you control this from the beginning, you control a lot. But that also would mean mandatory vaccination at least for the staff, and this is something on which I am still unable to decide if I am for or against. Were the vaccines tested on longer time, or all based on classical methods, it would not be an issue.

by Tom2 on Wed Jan 19th, 2022 at 12:37:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

multi-factor data analysis is a bitch, ain't it (none / 0)

Some might have dismissed this information last December. Many likely haven't seen the label on the bottle, and in any event the constituents of each mRNA patented vaccine (apart from "delivery platform") aren't public knowledge. Which isn't to suggest expert organic chem knowledge is required to understand prerequisite novelty in design to acquire a patent.
btw,
Where's muh patent waivers?
WHO makes interim recommendations for mixing and matching COVID-19 vaccines
EU agencies endorse mix-and-match of COVID-19 vaccines

archived
Japan breaks ranks
LIVING OFF ebola marketing mix 'n' match UPDATE
How'd that work out?

by Cat on Wed Jan 19th, 2022 at 02:58:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Alas for the Ignorant Hick (4.00 / 2)

A Simple Breakdown of the Ingredients in the COVID Vaccines

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Wed Jan 19th, 2022 at 04:32:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Simple Breakdown of the Ingredients (none / 1)

Indeed, that's the "delivery platform," or suspension, encapsulating the "the viral protein" (or synthetic RNA). The former is known to interested parties, the latter is not well reported.

After injection, the mRNA from the vaccine is released into the cytoplasm of the cells. Once the viral protein is made [HOW?] and on the surface of the cell, mRNA is broken down [metabolized?] and the body permanently gets rid of it[see? this is why ppl be searching for "black box warnings" and biochemical summaries exactly describing eg. waste product, bc EUA holders' reporting is faint], therefore making it impossible to change our DNA.

I must stress, I am not and have never suggested mRNA material alters cellular DNA. Rather like creation of "cancer cells", cellular DNA prescribes/transcribes mRNA transformation of normal surface structure ("binding domain") of human cells, mainly epithelial, which occur in form or another as tissue throughout the human body, into an unpredictable "pathway" of lymphatic responses to any and all antigens, including SARS-CoV-2. The mRNA mechanisms of action (MOA) said to "protect" cells is not well-understood.

by Cat on Wed Jan 19th, 2022 at 10:41:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Alas (none / 1)

Comirnaty

Comirnaty contains nucleoside modified mRNA (modRNA) encapsulated in lipid nanoparticles that deliver the modRNA into host cells. The lipid nanoparticle formulation facilitates the delivery of the RNA into human cells.12 Once inside these cells, the modRNA is translated by host machinery to produce a modified SARS-CoV-2 spike (S) protein antigen, which is subsequently recognized by the host immune system. Comirnaty has been shown to elicit both neutralizing antibody and cellular immune responses to the S protein, which helps protect against subsequent SARS-CoV-2 infection
AbsorptionNot Available
Volume of distribution Not Available
Protein binding Not Available
Metabolism Not Available
Route of elimination Not Available
Half-life Not Available
Clearance Not Available

etc

by Cat on Wed Jan 19th, 2022 at 11:04:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Alas DailyMed (none / 0)

a nlm.nih.gov production

Comirnaty

CLINICAL PHARMACOLOGY
12.1 Mechanism of Action
The nucleoside-modified mRNA in COMIRNATY is formulated in [INACTIVE INGREDIENTS], which enable delivery of the mRNA into host cells to allow expression of the SARS-CoV-2 S antigen. The vaccine elicits an immune response to the S antigen, which protects against COVID-19.

by Cat on Wed Jan 19th, 2022 at 11:32:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Alas (none / 1)

neither DailyMed nor DrugBank describe the one ACTIVE INGREDIENT, Tozinameran

which being "recobinant" RNA, should be identifiable by its genomic sequence.

by Cat on Wed Jan 19th, 2022 at 11:46:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

LATEST "mix and match" testimonial (none / 0)

for "vaccine hesitant" US American tabloid readers
COVID vaccine cocktails: A guide to mixing and matching Pfizer, Moderna, J&J booster shots
archived illustrations of SARS-CoV-2 molecular formations and RNA strands targets

by Cat on Sun Jan 23rd, 2022 at 04:42:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Novel Corona Virus (none / 0)

The problem from day 1 has been that we are dealing with a novel corona virus which also mutates rapidly. The clinical and epidemiological implications of which were largely unknown, and we are still learning. You say are still undecided about mandatory vaccination for the staff. Our public health authorities didn't have the luxury of prevaricating for so long.

So yes, mRNA technology is new. The vaccines haven't been tested exhaustively on all sorts of demographics, pre-existing conditions, and potential drug interactions. We know little or nothing about long Covid.

In Ireland the public health advice was confused and sometimes downright wrong. Public health officials initially opposed mask mandates - saying the public wouldn't know how to wear, handle and dispose of masks properly in the first place.

Antigen testing was opposed until very recently. Now it is almost replacing PCR testing as a first line of defence - despite a widely sold brand of antigen test becoming notorious for false positives. (It ruined our extended family Christmas).

There is still a lack of emphasis on air conditioning/filtration/plasma screening ventilation systems.

But it's all very well individuals becoming virologists overnight and making conscientious decisions for themselves and their families. Public health officials and governments have to make decisions for society as a whole, and that means assessing the balance of risks. No solution is perfect.

Once you take the Chinese total lockdown solution off the table, you are talking about pandemic management, trying to reduce the overall level of harm, trying to optimise the medical capacities you have or can develop.

It's not an exact science. Its almost like fighting a war: making rushed decisions under duress which might have been different had you had months of data to consider your options.

WE DIDN'T HAVE THAT.

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Wed Jan 19th, 2022 at 10:07:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Novel Corona Virus (none / 1)

You can boost as often you want, as long as you let planes fly, you will spread and create new variants that you will reimport again.

by Tom2 on Thu Jan 20th, 2022 at 10:48:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Novel Corona Virus (none / 0)

And something like that may well be the end game - an annual or 6 monthly jab optimised for the latest Covid variant much like the current Flu jab - which I have never taken, but may have to re-evaluate.

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Thu Jan 20th, 2022 at 11:40:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Novel Corona Virus (none / 0)

And the freedom to spread covid to the rest of the world of course. Enjoy!

by Tom2 on Thu Jan 20th, 2022 at 12:16:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Spreading covid around the world (none / 0)

If it were possible to eliminate to Covid virus completely, then I'm all for it. We are now producing enough vaccines to inoculate the entire world, but in many places the infrastructure to transport, preserve, dispense to the entire population is lacking. Doesn't mean we should stop trying.

But failing that, unless you want an indefinite lockdown and ban on all travel we are going to have to live with a level of the disease, and the trick is to to contain it as much as possible and within health care capacity while opening up society as much as possible. Travellers have been spreading disease since forever. It's up to each country to decide how much or whether they should curtail international travel.

Hats off to Australia for expelling Djokovic. They may have made a mess of the process, but the principle that you are a guest of a foreign country and staying at their discretion stands. So no, I don't believe we have the freedom to spread covid around the world.

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Thu Jan 20th, 2022 at 08:08:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

too little, too late (none / 0)

archived repatriations

by Cat on Thu Jan 20th, 2022 at 11:10:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: too little, too late (4.00 / 2)

As a general rule, Cat, a comment should be intelligible in its own right. Links are there to provide supporting evidence or further reading for those who want it. Your comment says nothing and your link is just to the generic newsroom page, and I haven't a clue what part of that long discussion may be of relevance to the point you want to make.

So as a general rule I ignore such comments. But I also think it is a discourtesy to our readers to splurge undigested links about the place. Say what you have to say in the comment and by all means link to a single other comment or story which supports, reinforces or expands on your point. Otherwise you are just increasing the noise to signal ratio and wasting people's time.

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Thu Jan 20th, 2022 at 11:57:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

This is your comment.< (none / 1)

Travellers have been spreading disease since forever.

The link is to multiple instances, but not all instances, of repatriation flights from and between Asia, EU, and GB in the first quarter of pandemic, before "lock-downs," when quarantine and testing protocols were not encouraged or well reported.

by Cat on Fri Jan 21st, 2022 at 02:30:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Thanks (none / 0)

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Fri Jan 21st, 2022 at 10:25:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

LATEST "open sky" import/export figures (none / 1)

Samoa goes into lockdown after 15 Australians test positive

The [15] infected passengers were among 73 who arrived from Brisbane on Wednesday.
Prime Minister Fiame Naomi Mata'afa also said Saturday the government may cancel further flights from Australia. A scheduled flight from New Zealand on Saturday has already been postponed, according to Radio New Zealand. All the passengers were reportedly fully vaccinated and had tested negative for COVID-19 before departure [at AU port].
[...]
American Samoa [a US "possession"] also has 18 cases, all of them travelers from Hawaii on Hawaiian Airlines flights from Honolulu. The latest group of seven who tested positive arrived Jan 6. There is no lockdown in American Samoa and flights between Honolulu and Pago Pago continue on limited basis.

Omicron spreads in New Zealand, spoiling PM's wedding plans
AP ethical parameters

by Cat on Sun Jan 23rd, 2022 at 04:14:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Mandatory vaccination | 180 comments (180 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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