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From checking the MSM I don't see yet any mention of Zelenski offers of ceasefire and neutrality, which pro Russian platforms have been quoting since the morning.
RT has this now
https:/www.rt.com/russia/550612-peskov-positive-neutral-zelensky
https:/www.rt.com/russia/550628-putin-address-ukraine-military-power
by Tom2 on Fri Feb 25th, 2022 at 03:14:27 PM EST
Interesting view (from Circe at MoA, answering s.o.)
I think you don't get how Ukraine has become a de facto member of NATO regardless of the official public rigamarole and how strategically important it is to USNATO in containing Russia as a world power. This unofficial Natofication of Ukraine is an existential threat to Russia.

From your comment you don't seem to get how every day this threat has been increasing and how the goal of the UkieNeonazis is the destruction of Russia by all means including through NATO and influencing Ukraine's government in the direction of that goal.

How else can Russia ensure that doesn't happen without involvement in that government guaranteeing absolute neutrality, eliminating the influences hostile to Russia?

I don't see a cosmetic, one-dimensional solution here. We're talking about a country bordering Russia with NATO all around it, so it's disingenuous on your part to throw in Neocon.

Ukraine is not some country like Iraq was or Iran is that were targeted merely to grow U.S. hegemonic interests. Russia IS like Iran in the crosshairs, and more so, being a world power antithetical to U.S. interests.

If this Russian Operation appears to resemble strategy from the Neocon playbook, then Russia can bring up Iraq and Libya, where regime change occurred; and ask: how were these two an existential threat to the U.S. and NATO (albeit in Iraq's case NATO went under the guise of coalition of the willing)?

Let's be fair, frank and truthful. In this case, Russsia is Iraq, Libya and Iran fighting back with all the might Russia, unlike the others, is fortunate to possess; the military might and ingenuity required to defeat the behemoth, USNATO, via Ukraine as that is the tool the former is using. Therefore, eradicating all traces of allegiance to the behemoth is essential.

by Tom2 on Fri Feb 25th, 2022 at 03:41:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"I think you don't get..."

You know you're replying to your own comment, right?

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Fri Feb 25th, 2022 at 04:04:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It is called an addition to a related issue.
by Tom2 on Fri Feb 25th, 2022 at 04:06:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Weird term.  Never heard that one.  Which part of the states are you from?

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Fri Feb 25th, 2022 at 04:16:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You're supposed to use < blockquote > tags when you quote someone else.

Oh I forgot. You're too lazy.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Sat Feb 26th, 2022 at 07:18:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This is so brilliantly written (and convincing to me at least) that I can resist quoting it:

Michael Brenner
mbren@pitt.edu
SOMETHING HAPPENED

My muse knocked at dawn. Exhausted after catching the redeye from Moscow and then diverted over Finland. He insisted on a full breakfast before whispering in my ear. A week pulling up the grass roots from the permafrost in Gorky Park while subsisting on borscht and boiled cabbage had drained him.. Reanimated, the Truth began to flow - in short, staccato sentences with none of the usual refinements and subtle similes.

Context and background are everything in understanding the Russian attack. Look at the process of decision as dynamic over time rather than sharply focused in the immediate.

Putin is not a dictator. He cannot simply choose a course of action and give commands a la Stalin. Never has been. He has great authority; yet, at the same time, he represents the underlying convictions, thoughts and interests of powerful people in and around the government. Most of them were seated in that semicircle at St. Catherine's Hall for the televised meeting of the Russian Security Council.

They, along with most all of Russia's political cum economic class, have felt deeply humiliated by what they see as the shabby, patronizing treatment they have received from the West - led by a crass America - since 1991. The insults in word and action have hit them nonstop since 2014, reaching a crescendo from March 2021 onward. They have known full well that the aim is to denature Russia as a political cum diplomatic power in Europe - and beyond. The West want it neutralized and marginalized so that the U.S. can remain master of Europe as it prepares for a titanic struggle with China for global supremacy. Unfettered access to Russia's wealth of natural resources is a bonus.

Concrete security concern have sharpened progressively as Washington has broken a series of major arms control agreements, expanded NATO, connived to replace friendly governments with American proxies via the notorious "color revolutions," sought to undercut energy ties with European states, and deployed advanced weapons systems (above all, the anti-missile systems in Poland and Rumania able to be converted into offensive missile launchers), and via its `rules-based international order' sloganeering and democracy vs autocracy campaign make explicit its intention to do everything possible to rig the game of world politics in its favor.

Ukraine, they believe, became the occasion (not the cause) to pin down a Russia whose growing strength discomforted and annoyed the Americans. It represented a conscious decision of the Biden administration under the sway of reborn Cold Warriors in State, the NSC, the CIA and the Pentagon. The triumph of their will in a government bereft of contrary voices and led by a weak, manipulable President was a sure thing. The Ukraine anti-Russia operation began in March with the Washington encouraged build-up of Ukrainian military forces along the Donbass Line, delivery of large quantities of arms including Javelin anti-armor weapons, renewed talk of heavy economic sanctions, and a chorus of shrill rhetoric from all quarters in Washington and Brussels.

The American objective of putting Russia back in its subordinate place was taken as an obvious given by the Kremlin. Uncertainty existed on the question of what initiatives on the ground to expect: a major assault on the Donbass or provocative acts to force a Russian reaction that could be used as a pretext for imposing sanctions (above all, the cancelling of NORDSTROM II).

It is likely that senior policymakers in Washington themselves had not made a definitive judgment on the issue. Divisions among individual players and a wavering President could very well left have important matters unresolved within a soft, cloudy consensus. There was visible evidence of this in the repeated juxtaposition, and alternation, of bellicose rhetoric and Biden's mollifying words in public and the "let's not go to war" telephone conversations he initiated to Putin and reaffirmed at their Geneva Summit.

In Moscow, too, there likely were differences of opinion - or, more accurately, of emphasis. They surely led to some divergences over what actions Russia should take. It is essential to bear in mind that Putin himself seems to have been closer to the dovish end of the continuum among Security Council members on the overarching issue of how to deal with the U.S., with the West, and particularly Ukraine. One could imagine a gradual hardening of thinking among all individuals as tensions mounted and frustrations grew in the Kremlin. A Putin, who might have been trying to fashion an approach that reconciled his own wariness about military confrontation with genuine worry about the threats to Russian security presented by Washington's hardline, might have found himself in a quandary. I suspect that American official have very little understanding of this reality or appreciate its implications.

That could explain the promulgation of that strange position paper/demarche wherein he laid out in detail a list of demands for a drastic revision of Europe's security configuration punctuated by an emphasis on time urgency. That is to say, a Hail Mary to stay the hand of a growing consensus that the time had come for Russia to hit back at the West in the Ukraine. Two things perhaps tipped Putin's thinking into accepting the necessity of doing what he did. One was the West's unbending and unaccommodating response. The other, was the Ukrainians' launching an unprecedented artillery and mortar barrage against the Donetsk and Luhansk provinces. Who forced that fateful step? Elements of the Ukraine Army and/or security services? The AZOV brigade and associated parties? Zelensky? With how much encouragement from the CIA and/or the White House?

Michael Brenner

by Tom2 on Fri Feb 25th, 2022 at 04:08:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Tom2:
I think you don't get how Ukraine has become a de facto member of NATO regardless of the official public rigamarole and how strategically important it is to USNATO in containing Russia as a world power. This unofficial Natofication of Ukraine is an existential threat to Russia.

From your comment you don't seem to get how every day this threat has been increasing and how the goal of the UkieNeonazis is the destruction of Russia by all means including through NATO and influencing Ukraine's government in the direction of that goal.

You're quoting some fellow from the MoA blog, right?

This also happens to be the official Putin's talking points and justification (look what you made me do...)

You can, of course, post this opinion here, but we can also call it complete bollocks.

by Bernard (bernard) on Fri Feb 25th, 2022 at 05:09:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, as explained in line 1, I quote someone (who btw is usually attacked by the hardcore marxists of the blog). I thought it was well written and indeed a vision I feel hard to dismiss.
I doubt Putin used "rigamarole" and the rest of the text do not seem to me to repeat a speech by him or someone else. I pasted it from the beginning to avoid any confusion.
by Tom2 on Fri Feb 25th, 2022 at 05:40:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks for clarifying: your lack of formatting often makes it difficult to follow what is yours, what you're quoting or even which comment (and commenter) you're replying to.

Of course, Putin doesn't speak English, but he has communicated his talking points, justifying his aggression, clearly enough:

  • NATO is expanding in Ukraine (it is not)
  • Ukraine military (+phantom NATO) is threatening Russia (obvious disproportion of military forces notwithstanding)
  • Ukrainian government is carrying out genocide against its Russian speaking minority, particularly in Donbas (Ukrainian president is a Russian speaking Jew and the separatists areas of Donbas have been off limits to Ukraine, thanks to - unofficial - Russian military presence there for years)
  • Ukraine is run by "Nazis" (Neo-Nazis parties have made less than 10% at the last elections)

Some people can endorse these wholesale (it's a free country), but personally, I'll pass.
by Bernard (bernard) on Fri Feb 25th, 2022 at 06:59:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Nazis obsession, continued...

Putin calls Ukraine government 'drug addicts and neo-Nazis'

Also, this piece from the Tass agency, quoted by Fjallstrom yesterday.

by Bernard (bernard) on Fri Feb 25th, 2022 at 07:49:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
folklore: very interesting ... obsessions.
by Cat on Sat Feb 26th, 2022 at 03:16:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually, Putin may be quite sincere. In Israel, people are well aware of his philosemitism.
by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Sun Feb 27th, 2022 at 08:14:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think you don't get how Ukraine has become a de facto member of NATO

Why do you bother quoting such gibberish?
You know, surely, that a NATO member would be defended by all NATO members in the event of an external aggression?

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Sat Feb 26th, 2022 at 07:20:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually Article 5 says that each party must do "such action as it deems necessary", which is a little vaguer.
by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Sat Feb 26th, 2022 at 08:17:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
More and more interesting, the French gov radio bulletin of 17:00 talks about Zelenski calling all Europeans who want to fight to join him in Ukraine and says not a word of the offer o Zelenski.
2 contradictory narratives developping?
by Tom2 on Fri Feb 25th, 2022 at 04:06:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The BBC follows the same narrative but has this "Vladimir Putin tells Ukrainian troops to overthrow their own country's leadership" in the summary of the live. But it also has that "Ukraine's interior ministry also says 18,000 machine guns have been given to volunteers".

I am not sure if this can help democracy anywhere... Machine guns against planes and tanks? to do what?

by Tom2 on Fri Feb 25th, 2022 at 04:27:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
New element added: French MSM claiming Ukr source says high level radiations around Tchernobyl. After two years of depression (and the latest 'depression wave' with the Omicron narratives), throwing a war and the 'nuclear threat' to the pot can only be within the full respect of the seriousness of information you expect in a democracy, isn't it?
by Tom2 on Fri Feb 25th, 2022 at 05:08:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You don't take a city with planes and tanks.

You take a city block by block. With foot soldiers.
Even Molotov cocktails are useful. But eighteen thousand machine guns are better.


It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Sat Feb 26th, 2022 at 07:51:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Useful for what? Like what is the endgame here? If you're arming the population in your capital you really should be seeking terms, whatever those are. Because the way cities defended by irregulars have been taken recently has been by bombing the rubble and then bombing it again.
by generic on Sat Feb 26th, 2022 at 08:49:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, so far, the Ukranian government has been announcing civilian death tolls in the low hundreds. This would indicate that the Russian army is under instructions to minimise that. So they are not going Syrian on Kiev.

Despite the occasional cruise missile taking a random chunk out of an apartment building (or perhaps that was pinpoint accuracy on a particular apartment?)

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Sun Feb 27th, 2022 at 09:18:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Follow his twitter feed #Zelensky for public statements.

The unreliable Sky News UK follows development from Kyiv and broadcasts "breaking" news on Ukraine ...

"Russia kicked out of Eurovision" ☹ really newsworthy

I have seen the videoclip ... it is nowhere to be find ... almost as military censorship cut out a aentence

These are the words I recall, Zelensky spoke English in the clip ...

PS I am and will not be a war correspondent. To get a good feel of war, one should be embedded ... the safest place. ☹    Not useful to bring warfare into the living room as 90% is propaganda for their side, and needs verification. The fog of war.

'Sapere aude'

by Oui (Oui) on Fri Feb 25th, 2022 at 05:31:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It would be useful if the ppl who pretend that Ukraine 'can fight it' (with our help and money) could also explain why the Ukrainian gov refused to implement the Minsk agreement.
Even in Washington some admit that there has been a US agenda to not let it be implemented.
https://nationalinterest.org/feature/why-washington-has-lost-its-mind-over-ukraine-200513
by Tom2 on Fri Feb 25th, 2022 at 06:49:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Might be also useful to remember that the best receivers of the "we must fight the atheist Russkies" in the last fifty years have been... zombified djihadists (Afghanistan, Syria, now Mali?)
by Tom2 on Fri Feb 25th, 2022 at 06:57:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
From your first RT link :
Kremlin spokesperson Dmitry Peskov considers President Volodymyr Zelensky's readiness to discuss a neutral status for Ukraine "a movement towards the positive."

Earlier on Friday, the Ukrainian leader said he was prepared to discuss the possibility of neutrality for Ukraine with Russia, but on condition of securing "third-party guarantees." However, he expressed doubts that any third countries would provide Kiev with such guarantees, as Ukraine is not a NATO member and "everybody is afraid."

You don't seem to realise (but that's OK, I'm here to educate you) that the whole point of being in NATO, for Ukraine, is to have third-party guarantees.

So "neutrality with third-party guarantees" would be fine for Zelensky (and obviously, unacceptable for Putin) because they would be defended by third parties if, hypothetically, Ukraine were to be invaded.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Sat Feb 26th, 2022 at 07:45:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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