Welcome to European Tribune. It's gone a bit quiet around here these days, but it's still going.
Display:
< /irony>
Thank you for nailing your colours to the mast.

What is the free world "fighting" for in Ukraine? I for one have difficulty accepting the objective is trading "energy independence" from Russia for Ukraine's capital contributions to EU27 political cohesion and economic stability.

erm whose strawman is that? Linky?

threats, posed by the sovereignty of the Russian Federation

Well, we know whose strawman that is.
Yours, Oui's and Pooty-poot's.

What threat who posed to the sovereignty of the Russian Federation is a fascinating question.
How the invasion of Ukraine was supposed to fix the problem is no longer very interesting, because said invasion has opened the possibility of said threat becoming real at a future date
(by revealing the piteous state of the RF's military, and by degrading its capacities)

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Tue Apr 19th, 2022 at 10:43:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Executions by Ukrainian National Guard (Azov)

To place this war and the Ukrainian far right in its historical context, Rania Khalek was joined by Tarik Cyril Amar, a historian from Germany, who is currently associate professor of history at Koc University in Istanbul, working on Russian, Ukrainian, and generally East European history.

Those who refuse to educate themselves with lessons from history are doomed to repeat the same mistakes. Falling for Western propaganda. Discounting the opinion of you fellow human being ... being antagonistic where arguments fail.

"Lessons from the past may not always ward off doom, but they can provide insights into the present and even the future."

From my latest diary Zelensky A Leader Failed to Rise from the Ashes

On January 17, 1961, in this farewell address, President Dwight Eisenhower warned against the establishment of a "military-industrial complex."


'Sapere aude'

by Oui (Oui) on Tue Apr 19th, 2022 at 11:30:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Relevance to my post?

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II
by eurogreen on Tue Apr 19th, 2022 at 01:24:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Attempting to communicate with someone who is comfortable measuring degrees of atrocity is not unlike attempting to explain a joke (incongruous terms) to a sack of bricks buried under a haystack.

Not only is a sack of bricks incapable of apprehending  500 years of European epistemology and war devoted to the topic of sovereignty and realized in the formation of a nation-state, a sack of bricks is incapable of applying criteria of national membership and governance acceptable to EU incumbents-- whose continental dominion has proved elastic, in both geographic and ideological terms, rather than integral expression of economic integrity for which the EU was founded.

Fortunately, a sack of bricks need not recall EU multi-speed, two-speed, or "variable geometry" currency conforming strategems which even eurotrib correspondents were unable to resolve, much to the delight of NATO "partners" in US America.

Frank, for example, just posted a letter advocating for the expulsion of one permanent EU member and one "candidate country"--both sovereign nations--whose existence undermine th "development of a greater and more democratic EU" symbolized by "lethal aid" for Ukraine, a nation situated just beyond the pale of the 20-years long EU enlargement strategy and Russia's (but not NATO's) "intervention" in its 8-years long civil war to rationalize its multi-ethnic culture.

A sack of bricks cannot question the morality of such differential calculus, for a sack of bricks certainly cannot measure either qualitative or quantitative values, thereby formulate the final stop of EU enlargement "aspirations," nor answer for the Council's patent, manifold EU computing errors.

reference
EC | EU enlargement policy

• foster peace and stability in regions close to the EU's borders
• help improve the quality of people's lives through integration and cooperation across borders
increase prosperity and opportunities for European businesses and citizens
• guide, support and monitor changes in countries wishing to join the European Union in line with EU values, laws and standards
EC | Conditions for membership
Conditions for membership
[...]
Membership criteria - Who can join?
Countries wishing to join need to have:
• stable institutions guaranteeing democracy, the rule of law, human rights and respect for and protection of minorities;
• a functioning market economy and the capacity to cope with competition and market forces in the EU;
• the ability to take on and implement effectively the obligations of membership, including adherence to the aims of political, economic and monetary union.

The EU also needs to be able to integrate new members. In the case of the countries of the Western Balkans additional conditions for membership, were set out in the so-called 'Stabilisation and Association process', mostly relating to regional cooperation and good neighbourly relations.

oops
by Cat on Tue Apr 19th, 2022 at 04:40:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The sack of bricks doesn't frankly see the problems you are referring to as being show-stoppers.

"foster peace and stability in regions close to the EU's borders" is undoubtedly the principal driver of Ukraine's fast-track EU application, and the principal reason why governments and populations of EU countries are prepared to entertain that application.

"stable institutions guaranteeing democracy, the rule of law, human rights and respect for and protection of minorities" requires examination and an action plan before admission can be countenanced, as does "a functioning market economy and the capacity to cope with competition and market forces in the EU", but in the context of post-war reconstruction, I am sure that the Ukrainian government will have overwhelming popular support for taking the necessary measures, including taking the economy away from the oligarchs.

Obviously, the current war must be ended with internationally-ratified borders and adequate security guarantees, before adhesion could go ahead.

Also, the EU must clarify and strengthen the mechanisms which allow it to enforce ongoing conformity with the entrance criteria, because it would be unfair to impose higher standards on Ukraine (e.g. press freedoms, separation of powers...) than on existing EU members.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Wed Apr 20th, 2022 at 11:08:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You made my day...
#Coherence
#Common decency

How can the greens be pro-war? Weren't the early greens usually neutral if only because of the toll for the environment?
#Neutrality

by Tom2 on Wed Apr 20th, 2022 at 11:56:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In general, I would expect Greens to be anti-invasion.
Some are pacifists, which I suppose, logically would mean letting themselves be killed (and passively watching others get killed).
Others are "realos".
Yes the world is a complicated place, Tomtom.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II
by eurogreen on Wed Apr 20th, 2022 at 03:01:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Attempting to communicate with someone who is comfortable measuring degrees of atrocity

which atrocities in particular were you talking about?

For my part, starting a strictly optional war by invading a neighbouring country is the principal atrocity in the current sequence of events, in that it engenders chains of subsequent atrocities by all participants. So yes, I recognise that there are degrees of atrocity. But I'm not comfortable about it.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Wed Apr 20th, 2022 at 11:19:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"strictly optional war" should be added to future dictionaries of Newspeak.
by Tom2 on Wed Apr 20th, 2022 at 12:04:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Tell me Tom2 :

  • In what respects would the world be a worse place today if Mr Putin hadn't said "go" on 24th February?
  • In what respects has the world been improved by that decision?

With special emphasis on Russia and Ukraine.

Five hours are allotted for your response.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Wed Apr 20th, 2022 at 02:39:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Do you mean 1st February? What exactly in the head of the politicians you worship made it impossible to call for the enforcement of Minsk 2 after the Memorandum delivered by the Russians in December 2021? If you cared for the Ukranians, you could simply have called for Misk 2 to be implemented.

You mentioned once you are from NZ, so it might be that you feel closer to the Anglo world, which apparently had decided again to eliminate the European rival by making European territories the battlefield in their latest military adventure. Ready to die to the last European, obviously.

Even CBC now says that 'the war in Ukraine is changing and the West now faces a stark choice'. That is not exactly what the MSM have been selling people like you for the last 2 months ("the war will be smooth and easy". People of my generation and older know that the people who call for war are never those who are actually affected by them.

https:/www.cbc.ca/news/politics/ukraine-russia-zelensky-putin-mariupol-1.6423886

"I think the bigger problem for us, or the bigger challenge -- that's the collective 'us', this includes Canada -- is we have to decide that we're going to win," retired U.S. lieutenant-general Ben Hodges told CBC News.

"It's not about just keeping Ukraine in the fight. It's about winning. And that means we're going to do everything necessary to make sure that Ukraine is successful that does not require putting American or Canadian or British troops on the ground." "

Todd has a brilliant analysis of the situation (he speaks of the war a lot, in spite of the title)
https:
www.les-crises.fr/le-macronisme-est-un-populisme-emmanuel-todd

by Tom2 on Wed Apr 20th, 2022 at 03:01:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I am sure you will also enjoy the dissemination of light weapons to all places, not to mention the bigger ones. When the whole South was against the sanctions (it was still possible to convince Ze to drop the Eastern regions and accept a peaceful settlements in early February when he himself was calling for negociations) the rich Europeans/UK/UK/Australia said 'so what'. Now that inflation will start biting your idols tell us to endure, that this is the price to pay for fighting the enemies of freedom... Sounds familiar, no? All this because Uncle Sam told the EU: 'Fuck you' and 'No way NS2 and the Silk Roads is gonna happen".

What happens to weapons sent to Ukraine? The US doesn't really know
The US has few ways to track the substantial supply of anti-tank, anti-aircraft and other weaponry it has sent across the border into Ukraine, sources tell CNN, a blind spot that's due in large part to the lack of US boots on the ground in the country -- and the easy portability of many of the smaller systems now pouring across the border. . ."We have fidelity for a short time, but when it enters the fog of war, we have almost zero," said one source briefed on US intelligence. "It drops into a big black hole, and you have almost no sense of it at all after a short period of time."
https://edition.cnn.com/2022/04/19/politics/us-weapons-ukraine-intelligence/index.html

by Tom2 on Wed Apr 20th, 2022 at 03:28:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
https:/consortiumnews.com/2022/04/19/gold-rush-in-ukraine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_D._Hartung
by Tom2 on Wed Apr 20th, 2022 at 03:44:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah yes, the old story...

"We were OBLIGED to invade our neighbour because they weren't co-operating in negotiations over border revisions.
Also, they are persecuting the minority of their citizens who belong to OUR ethnic group.
What's more, the Western allies are conspiring to surround us and carve our nation into bits"

It's a replay of 1939 actually.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Thu Apr 21st, 2022 at 01:56:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Display:

Occasional Series