Zelensky A Leader Failed to Rise from the Ashes | 132 comments (132 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: Chomsky On Prevention World War III (none / 0)

There is a fairly large concensus among the citizens of Europe that those days are meant to be over.

This isn't a proxy war; it is a war between a hegemon which disagrees that those days are over, and a nation which aspires to join that concensus, but has the misfortune to have a long border with the aforesaid hegemon.

The danger for Europe is that letting the hegemon win the war sets a, to put it mildly, dangerous precedent.

I'm not a nationalist; international borders are largely arbitrary historical accidents; but allowing a hegemon to revise them by military conquest is ALWAYS a bad idea. Nevertheless, I hope that Ukraine will agree to a territorial settlement, because the war has to end.

_{It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue
- Queen Elizabeth II}

by eurogreen on Fri Apr 22nd, 2022 at 12:52:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Chomsky On Prevention World War III (none / 1)

How is this not a proxy war? The Ukrainian government is large funded by IMF loans and nearly all of the new military equipment comes from NATO. If that isn't a proxy war than there never never was one.

And frankly "..and a nation which aspires to join that consensus.." is ahistoric and completely removes meddling by one side from consideration. Do you deny that the first pro-Western Orange Revolution government was voted out of office, and I think our guy got something like sevenths place in that election? Or that the US was involved in the Maidan revolution to the point they got to pick the PM afterwards? And finally, Zelensky was voted in as the peace candidate with large majorities, but in the end was unable to implement any part of the ceasefire, at least to a large part because of the threat of violence be far-right elements.

And I certainly agree that the majority of Europeans would like to believe that that age is over, but what the majority of Europeans wants never mattered much when it came to matters of war.

by generic on Fri Apr 22nd, 2022 at 02:03:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Proxy war? (none / 0)

How is this not a proxy war?

Since it was Russia that invaded Ukraine, do you consider that they did so in order to damage the US?
Or perhaps that the US (specifically) forced Putin to invade?
Because those are the only two ways I could see it as a proxy war.
That the EU, and the US, don't wish Ukraine to lose, and provide weapons, doesn't make it a proxy war. It makes them allies.

You seem to consider that the Maidan revolution is tainted, but no revolution is ever pure. It's axiomatic.
That the US was in favour of it, or meddled, is largely beside the point. The actual people of Ukraine had the right to overthrow their president after he flip-flopped over the crucial issue of choosing between Europe and Russia.

Also rember : the government that follows a revolution always betrays the revolution; that's axiomatic too. Poroshenko, as an oligarch himself, was singularly ill-equipped to fight corruption.
The fact that he was overwhelmingly defeated by a candidate who is clearly pro-European possibly illustrates a popular aspiration in that direction, no?

And frankly "..and a nation which aspires to join that consensus.." is ahistoric and completely removes meddling by one side from consideration.

You'll have to walk me through that part. Consider that after Maidan, there was a certain amount of meddling by one side (annexation of Crimea, the Donbass war) which dwarfs anything the Americans attempted.

I have no idea why you believe that the aspiration of Ukrainians to join the EU is ahistoric. It's been a fundamental, and divisive, issue for the last couple of decades. The succession of presidents elected - Yushenko, Yakunovich, Poroshenko, Zelenskiy - would seem to show a temopral strengthening of popular desire to strengthen ties with the EU and reduce dependency on Russia.

If you believe that Ukrainians have been fooled by the US into becoming pro-EU, rather than making a clear-eyed choice, can you explain the process to me?

_{It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue
- Queen Elizabeth II}

by eurogreen on Fri Apr 22nd, 2022 at 03:45:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Proxy war? (none / 1)

US influence in Ukraine was clearly the deciding factor, yes. What would be an example of a proxy war if this isn't one? Both Korea and Vietnam had their own motivations.

You'll have to walk me through that part. Consider that after Maidan, there was a certain amount of meddling by one side (annexation of Crimea, the Donbass war) which dwarfs anything the Americans attempted.

Maidan had, to the best of my knowledge, never more popular support than about 40%. And do you think that it's expected for a revolution to have another country's representative pick the political leadership afterwards? Political meddling is a matter of chronology, not arithmetic.

have no idea why you believe that the aspiration of Ukrainians to join the EU is ahistoric. It's been a fundamental, and divisive, issue for the last couple of decades. The succession of presidents elected - Yushenko, Yakunovich, Poroshenko, Zelenskiy - would seem to show a temopral strengthening of popular desire to strengthen ties with the EU and reduce dependency on Russia.

The point is exactly that it was disputed. Both "pro-Russian" and "pro-western" candidates could win, and would very likely not win reelection. Before the war Zelensky polled at 20% and if election had been held the "pro-Russian" opposition might very likely have won. But, of course the party leader was put under house arrest for conspiring with Russia (under orders of the Poroshenko government, funnily enough)

by generic on Fri Apr 22nd, 2022 at 04:45:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Proxy war? (none / 0)

...and by the way, why is it the case that in January 2022, the most influential players in building the case for a war (pretending they had proofs of Russian intentions) are English speakers, while within the EU, English speaker are now represented only by southern Ireland?

by Tom2 on Fri Apr 22nd, 2022 at 07:15:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Proxy war? (none / 0)

Well, if you are talking about the well-publicised US intelligence announcements... what language were you expecting it to be published in?

_{It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue
- Queen Elizabeth II}

by eurogreen on Sun Apr 24th, 2022 at 03:15:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Zelensky A Leader Failed to Rise from the Ashes | 132 comments (132 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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