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Sven works in mysterious ways... You can't be me, I'm taken
If only people would know about weird and weridness and quantum mechanics, it would be lovely to have more "rational" debates about reality....and applied epistemology :)
By the way... lovely end-twist about the need of a future complexity theory....or sort of.
A pleasure I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude
you are whetting our appetites for more of your engaging explanations of the inexplicable.
closer to the Old One....closer 'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty
"Sometimes it's good to write about boring stuff rather than about interesting stuff, that is, to write about what you know rather than about what you wish you knew. And what to you seems trite will likely seem tremendous to others, which is generally a good thing. By writing about what seems tremendous to you, you might end up seeming trite to others, which is bad. Tremendous or trite, we do it all in pursuit of the elusive snark."
imply not only that
"boring stuff" is approximately equal to "what you know rather than ...what you wish you knew"
but also that
"boring stuff" approx'ly = "what you know" approx'ly = "what...end[s] up seeming trite to others" ?
If so, there may be some assumptions contained there which amount to what I suspect ThatBritGuy might describe as "category errors"--if he were asked ;^).
Here's my shot at revising your introductory paragraph in a more (ahem) "gender neutral" manner:
Sometimes it's good to write matters on which our knowledge is fairly well-founded rather than speculating about other matters which we consider very interesting stuff That is, better to risk others' finding what you know rather than about what you like to speculate about to be rather, well, boring. Matters on which you're well-informed may seem trite to you; and yet, what seems trite to you may seem tremendously interesting to others, which is generally a good thing. By writing largely about what seems tremendously interesting to you, and about which you're not very well-informed, you might end up seeming trite to others. Dare you risk that? Tremendous or trite, we do it all in pursuit of the elusive snark.
By writing largely about what seems tremendously interesting to you, and about which you're not very well-informed, you might end up seeming trite to others. Dare you risk that? Tremendous or trite, we do it all in pursuit of the elusive snark.
Please don't ask me what "the elusive snark" means.
;^) "In such an environment it is not surprising that the ills of technology should seem curable only through the application of more technology..." John W Aldridge
Somewhat related is Rothbard's law:
Rothbard suggested that an otherwise talented individual would specialize and focus in an area at which they were weaker--or simply flat out wrong. Or as he often put it: "everyone specializes in what he is worst at."
Eh?
Why, "No,..."
That re-statement is, after all, what I wrote--or certainly meant to write that I'd understood you to have argued.
By the way, I think Rothbard himself necessarily disconfirms Rothbard's law --whether or not one agrees with him! "In such an environment it is not surprising that the ills of technology should seem curable only through the application of more technology..." John W Aldridge
By the way, do you have anything against Lewis Carroll? A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
He (Carroll--that was a pseudonym, wasn't it? ) was a mathematician? And he "specialized" in writing the "Alice" fables?
Charles Lutwidge Dodgson > was an English author, mathematician, logician, Anglican clergyman and photographer.
which of these did he do badly, or boringly?
Proximity1 1
Rothbard 0 "In such an environment it is not surprising that the ills of technology should seem curable only through the application of more technology..." John W Aldridge
now, Good Night !
"The rest of my speech" (he explained to his men) "You shall hear when I've leisure to speak it. But the Snark is at hand, let me tell you again! 'Tis your glorious duty to seek it! "To seek it with thimbles, to seek it with care; To pursue it with forks and hope; To threaten its life with a railway-share; To charm it with smiles and soap!
"To seek it with thimbles, to seek it with care; To pursue it with forks and hope; To threaten its life with a railway-share; To charm it with smiles and soap!
But beware of the Baker's fate
They hunted till darkness came on, but they found Not a button, or feather, or mark, By which they could tell that they stood on the ground Where the Baker had met with the Snark. In the midst of the word he was trying to say, In the midst of his laughter and glee, He had softly and suddenly vanished away--- For the Snark was a Boojum, you see.
In the midst of the word he was trying to say, In the midst of his laughter and glee, He had softly and suddenly vanished away--- For the Snark was a Boojum, you see.
And one shouldn't forget about the dangers posed by the Jubjub bird and the frumious Bandersnatch
;^)
Folks, goodnight. Prox has been at the keyboard/terminal too long already today.
PS: Barbara is right, Migu. You spend too much time here, too. ;^)
Signing off for the day/night, quantum moment, etc. "In such an environment it is not surprising that the ills of technology should seem curable only through the application of more technology..." John W Aldridge
Just made my day!!
Super diary, btw. Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire
The Heisenberg Indeterminency Principle (HIP) - usually mis-named the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle - is normatively communicated as Migeru does, above:
there are quantities of physical interest which cannot be known simultaneously with arbitrary precision.
With the emphasis being on what can never be known. But let's delve into this for a second. And look at the actual equation of the HIP which is:
Δp • Δq ≥ h-bar
And we need to unpack this.
p and q need to be canonical conjugates. Which are things that go together ... because they go together. :-) Things such as: mass AND acceleration; momentum AND position; space AND time. Other things such as "The orbit of Venus" AND "The digestive process of a flea" are not canonical and therefore outside the HIP. (They are also outside 'having a grip' but that is neither here nor there.) Δ means "a change in." The bullet is either multiplication (if we're talking arithmetic) or a Logical AND. h-bar is Planck's Constant, 6.626 x 10 ^ -27 divided by 2Π. So we're talking about measurable change in something at a really, really, teeny-tiny level.
(Note: discussion of "arbitrary measuration" is consciously eliminated.)
Only when p and q are canonical conjugates, a change in {whatever p refers to} times/AND {whatever q refers to) can be determined iff the product is greater or equal to h-bar. This sets the lower boundary below which we cannot know AND sets the lower boundary at and above which we can know. The HIP could have been named, with equal justification, the Heisenberg Determinency Principle.
This is what I meant the other day when I commented the HIP establishes a firm foundation for Human Knowledge. She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
Δp * Δq ≥ h-bar [where] p and q need to be canonical conjugates.
Δ means "a change in."
What is today known as the Heisenberg principle is a theorem which I now proceed to state in its full glory.
Suppose that you have a quantum system and you are interested in two observable [and numerical] properties of it, A and B. Form the mathematical description of A, B and the state (ψ) of the system quantum mechanics give you a probability distribution of possible observed values of A, and of possible observed values of B. These probability distribution is assumed to have certain mean values, and standard deviations ΔA and ΔB. Quantum mechanics also says that ΔA^2 ΔB^2 ≥ |E([A,B])|^2/4 where [A,B] is a certain other quantum mechanical observable (called "commutator of A and B), and E(x) is the mean value of x (in the state ψ).
If A and B are quantum counterparts of classical variables which are "canonically conjugate" (as in your examples) then [A,B] is (up to a sign) the imaginary unit times h=bar. But there are many observables with nonzero commutator with no classical analogue, such as photon polarizations, or directions of electron spin.
As to what this had to do with what you can know or not know at the same time, well... Barbara demands use of the computer so it'll have to sait for a future comment. A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
For example - this idea of measurement is very bothersome. The implication seems to be that something is only measured when it's perceived subjectively.
If I were doing QM for a living, that would give me a lot of sleepless nights. It begs the question - what has the universe been doing all this time without humans to perrceive it?
so the answer to "what has the universe been doing all this time without humans to perrceive it?" is an easy one: He is being busy non-existing.
reality is the interaction, the measure,.... Kant Reloaded.
And when a movie with Keanu (whatanass in spanish) R. as KanT with weird green numbers all around?
But it's fun to stand on the Edge and throw words at the epistomological bees as they hover in death-defying grace above the chasm of mortality. None of these thrown words have ever been known to have hit a bee-ing, or indeed to have made contact with anything at all as they plummeted out of site.
Some people claim to have heard melifluous laughter coming from over the Edge. But I think it's probably just some Bhuddist who tripped and managed to grab a causal shrub on his way. You can't be me, I'm taken
They really are much more nicer...and sound.. much more in the whole.... truthiness...
Since we exist in the universe rather than it in us, I think that a) the universe cannot be dependent on us or on our "measuring" it and, even more likely, perhaps, b) Surely you are joking, Mr Curie! "In such an environment it is not surprising that the ills of technology should seem curable only through the application of more technology..." John W Aldridge
a) but I am indeed sure about this point. the universe depends heavily on how me measure. Measuring changes the world.. this is one of the key of the present consensus in physics. It is dependent on our measuring in its external properties....regarding if there are laws who are independent of us...well I doubt physics can be understood in those terms.. more something like, we measure, we change it and we can extract some informacion about regularities....
The question at the end of the day is.. you believe that science describes reality and then inmediately accepts that reality is mathematics or you just consider that the universe is our metaphor and narrative without us being able to know (or if it even exists) a universe idnependent of us.
QM tells you that there is no middle ground... take one or the other....a ctually before starting QM I had another 2 or 3 possibilites opened in the mind.. one was certainly similar to yours...but experiments did not fit in...so I had to discard them...and my teachers make it sure I discarded them.
"but I am indeed sure about this point. the universe depends heavily on how me measure. Measuring changes the world.. this is one of the key of the present consensus in physics."
It seems to me that, if your argument means anything in logic, it means that there can be, so far, with present knowledge of physics, no clear and complete certainty about the universe's actual existence and, furthermore, its precise characteristics.
Now, whether or not I believe that is true, it seems to me that if you believe it is true, then you cannot claim that "Measuring changes the world.. this is one of the key of the present consensus in physics."
You can claim only that "Measuring changes our perceptions of the nature of the world.. this is one of the key of the present consensus in physics."
and that is, necessarily, not the same as saying that "Measuring changes the world.. "
Am I mistaken in that? "In such an environment it is not surprising that the ills of technology should seem curable only through the application of more technology..." John W Aldridge
Perception of the world, always talking about the perceived universe...but again.. the universe I am interested is in the one I perceived.. one which is farther away which is isolated and which I can not reach, well it could be interesting... I am not saying it does not exist.. actually I have no idea... but the universe I care is the one I perceived...and either this universe is pure mathematics with an existence we are all embedded in or is just a set of narrative and symbolics we generate to make sense creating it as we speak.
Kant's point is that the world out there [noumenon] probably exists but since the only thing that can be known about it is our perception of it [augmented by technology — let's leave this can of worms unopened for now] little can be said about the world itself.
Kant called the world as perceived phenomenon, and thus there is an interesting parallel between Kantian thought and the philosophical musings of Niels Bohr, namely
"No Phenomenon is a Phenomenon unless it is an observed phenomenon" — Niels Bohr A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
So, the link is not a far away link... it is basically one of the present positions on epistemology
Kant was that good...
We don't live at the centre of the solar system, or of the galaxy, or the universe. So it seems unlikely that the universe only exists because we perceive it. (Of course it only exists for us because we perceive it. But that's not quite the same thing.)
I might be convinced by the idea that our own unique perception exists because of us. The universe is out there as a extended haze of possibles, and our unique probability mix is personal.
But then the question becomes - how sentient do you have to become before this process starts happening for you?
So I'm not sure that's any more convincing as a point of view.
Penrose has suggested there's some kind of feedback loop between QM and gravity/local geometry, so effectively there's a trade off between mass and uncertainty. Small light things have a much wider range of uncertainty than big heavy ones - partly because it's impossible to maintain the ambiguity of pristine probabilistic virginity in a complex system, and partly because he likes the idea that geometry underlies everything and so it ought to be in the equations somewhere.
(I'm paraphrasing a little there, but I think that's more or less what he was trying to say. :) )
Sense data is organized into a map - it is not the territory itself. You can't be me, I'm taken
But it does not contradict the principle of Mediocitry.. our universe does not have to be unique..and the fact that it is personal doe snot make it special... actually I can not know anything about a universe beyond the one a I perceive.. so this is the one we ca deal with...
SO either you think it has some existence independent of us and maths exists (our description exists independently...and we will eventually get to discover the maths that really describe the stuff out there... description and reality are the same...and both maths).. or we just describe what we see...wnever knowing really waht is going on....being among the many possible unvierses...our universe.. our description... our myths...existence is myths...our narrative of the world and ourselves exists...because they are narratives.. not because they are maths...
So time is a math variable or a myth....lately I ahve been thinking...and I can not join them in a single entity...time is out there or time is in the interface...a reality or a description...
a quark.. a real quantum field....or narrative that behaves as a quantum field.... the never ending question.....
reality is out there or at the interface...I do not see any other option....which one? I do not take bets.
A pleasure
seriously, i think your post was lovely...it left everything in a deliciously aesthetic soft focus....myth and/or math, observer and/event....
peering over the edge of consensus reality has this enchanting effect on people sometimes, powerfully endearing...
like we're realising we may never know the answers to the so-called ultimate questions, that it's profoundly ok not to know everything, and may possibly be a blessing sometimes...
the best plots develop slowly
the mind tickles for knowledge like lungs breathe for air, and just like in permaculture, the most interesting and productive zones are at the edges.
great reply from sven below, as well.
well done migeru, for creating such a great tit of a thread. 'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty
"SO either you think it has some existence independent of us and maths exists (our description exists independently...and we will eventually get to discover the maths that really describe the stuff out there... description and reality are the same...and both maths).. or we just describe what we see...never knowing really what is going on....
you think it has some existence independent of us and maths exists (our description exists independently...and we will eventually get to discover the maths that really describe the stuff out there... description and reality are the same...and both maths)..
or
we just describe what we see...never knowing really what is going on....
We can at the same time hold that
existence is independent of "us"
and also
that "we just describe what we see...never knowing really what is going on...." "In such an environment it is not surprising that the ills of technology should seem curable only through the application of more technology..." John W Aldridge
I exactly thought this way for a long time...
but when I finished physics I realized that there was a strong connection... we change whatever we perceive as we measure. The universe .. the way we describe takes a loop form ..we can not explain what we see without making reference to someone measuring and something measured...physics links extremelly one with the other...universe can not be independent form us..so only the two options remained.
I came to the conclusion that if our present narrative of the world indeed is right and it has no self-contradictions.. then it is purely a narrative or is purely the reality...
So I convinced myself that independence+description was not possible...may be I am wrong...I could certainly be wrong..Actually, new discoveries could change the narrative indeed.. and we could come back to have an independent universe and a narrative about it...As you may know some people are trying hard.
Precisely.
I remain to be convinced, however.
By the way, your restatment of my views and your rebuttals offered show me that despite your claim:
"I exactly thought this way for a long time..."
you haven't in fact understood my point.
To understand just how and why you've missed my point, I can only refer you to either ThatBritGuy or Migeru, who shall be better able to explain it than I. "In such an environment it is not surprising that the ills of technology should seem curable only through the application of more technology..." John W Aldridge
This is because Heisenberg's principle involves a combination of two conceptual difficulties: the probability of a single event, and the fact that "noncommuting" quantum observables cannot simultaneously have precise values. A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
Then again, the relevant calculations are not on a firm footing, so it is taken as an indication that we just don't grok things as well as we should. A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
I think I'll sleep in a cloud chamber tonight... You can't be me, I'm taken
This is where you need to don a black turtleneck sweater, find a coffeehouse, and discuss Nietzsche. :-)
If {Whatever} is not measureable using a certain intellectual tool that does not mean the {Whatever} doesn't exist. It means the {Whatever} is not measureable using that intellectual tool and you need to get yourself another tool.
Or expand the analysis by plugging in additional procedures.
Anyone insisting on staying within mathematics, I submit, should contemplate positive Lyapunov Exponents as they pertain to information processing. She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
BTW where the gnomes when you need them? - your wonderful diary should have caused shouts of 'Stop the presses! Reset the front page' You can't be me, I'm taken
In any case... I think that the beatiful metaphor or tale that explains this wonderful principle is the one of the bee and the baseball balls.
The reason why you can not know a lot of things is because you just can not measure...(and maybe the measure is the existence... do you recall me mumbling about that the only thing that exists is the interaction....??? think it again...or look it up in a book)...in any case... you need measure...
And how are you going to measure the movement of a bee if the only thing you have to measure is a baseball bat and some balls?
As you may well know there is no problem in measuring the positon and speed of the JFK aircarrier by throwing baseball balls...you just throw them knowing the speed ,let them rebound...repeat it at different position and time and you can perfectly triangulate position and also get the velocity with the time dealys from the rebounds..
Unfortunetaly if you throw a basebal ball to a bee.... well besides probably killing the bee (not necesarilly) you just afect his trajectory so much...that actually you can not know the position and the velocity he/she had before..
When you are dealing with very small things..well you have to throw things- uber small things...the more precission you want.. the smaller the ball you must throw at them ...but gee...you can not get smaller and smaller ad infinitum because you have a minimum package (in Sven phrase of the hour)
So..if QM is only knowing about knowing that things go in packages.... you have certainly to know all THE THINGS IT IMPLIES.
But, little by little, by a combination of repetition (gateway neuron firing patterns) and hormonal, semi-hormonal and neurotransmitter production (or so called meta-programming which hardwires active connections) and cellular specialization caused by the RNA protein factories, the brain starts to self-organize.
Patterns of input are reinforced by negative and positive feedback. Neural networks emerge in sets and subsets, and subsets of subsets and eventually become 'mind objects' ie discrete. Discrete mind objects are a benefit and a curse. Mind objects often replace actual patterned sensory input - such that, if we walk through a forest, what we experience is largely forestness, not the actual forest. We sense what we have learned to sense.
Stimulii produce largely predictable response = learned behaviour. If the stimulii are 'expected' then the mind object tends to replace the actual incoming data. Except when novelty intrudes. Novelty (ahaa!) activates chemical metaprograms which in turn tweak the mind object. And of course the kernel chemical gradient metaprograms in the lizard brain that regulate sleep, hunger, threat, sex etc intrude also.
So mind objects are constantly 'improving', but at the same time deepening behavioural response and reducing the incidence of novelty.
Wonderful to be a child when everything is novel. Harder to be an adult full of Learned Behaviour Disorders and tired old mind objects.
I come here for the novelty ;-) You can't be me, I'm taken
Not only because of the way the brain organizes time-perception (a baby has little sense of time, a small child learns morning-afternoon-evening-night and to organize memories of "this morning" or "last night", and so on as we grow), but because we live and experience more and more by means of learned behaviours until, as you say, we walk through a forest experiencing our foresty mind object, or we don't see an apple but we experience "I am looking at an apple". And this is what I think explains the speeding-up of "time" during human life, the oft-described way the vast deserts of time we seemed to have as children become the fast-disappearing days, months, years we perceive as ageing adults.
This may simply be a function of the proportion of adult experience that is lived by means of learned behaviours (seen as running over and over the same sub-routines), or an effect of the physical process of development, the neurotransmitters, the hard-wiring of synapses. As this work is accomplished (childhood and adolescence) "time" moves slowly, though it accelerates; once it is mostly done, the rate of acceleration increases.
You are absolutely right. Time is yet another sense/signal that we pick out of all the noise, and our perception of time is learned (read 'imposed'). The artificial logistic rhythms of daily life are out of synch with our physiological circadian rhythms, and all the other artificial divisions of time (the working day, meal times, monthly salary etc etc) are in conflict with biological rhythms such as the internal biochemical gradients which influence what might be crudely called moods. You can't be me, I'm taken
Isn't he only relatively right?
Warning: trained physicists and other experts in Quantum mechanics are likely to find the following "trite"--not to mention erroneous. Proceed with caution!
Correct me if I'm wrong, won't you?
Though I agree that "time" as we experience it and use it in language, is a human-construct, it is, nonetheless a construct which references reality.
Perhaps that, for some, is all that needs to be said to make the point. But, as I'm the way I am, I'll go on a bit with this.
Motion and time have a relative quality, as I vaguely understand it, but not one which excludes an absolute quality to time sequence. There is, it seems to me, an indisputable absolute quality to the sequence of discrete events; for example: your parents' birth preceded your own; and in no other conceivable construct is something different possible since your existence presupposes that of your parents.
I think that, unless everything we sense and experience is purely illusory, the figment of an imagination which subsumes all existence within it, then we have very strong grounds to believe that if anything is "objectively" "real", the universe beyond us, apart from us, is also no less real than are we. Further, if all is illusory, what is it that is experiencing the illusion of reality?
Thus, "time" is a construct which references a feature of reality--discrete sequential physical phenomena in motions which are relative only to various sets of points of view but not relative when observed from other sets of points of view.
Or, time and motion can be observed to be seen in a manner that is relative to the observer's point of view. But that does not mean, as I understand it, that all motion is then merely and only relative in nature and wholly lacking in any sense which can be called absolute.
Isn't that correct?
Oh, yes, by the way, I'm skeptical of the idea that for infants--whether pre-natal or post-partum-- "everything is noise", "no signal" at some initial point, unless that point is one which is prior to the development of what I can only describe crudely as a developing brain's "critical mass" of cells, at which point, I'd agree: there's no conscious being at that point in development. But I suspect that as soon as there is a conscious being, there is something which is more than purely "noise" in sense data--one and probably more "signals", however slight and crude in "content". "In such an environment it is not surprising that the ills of technology should seem curable only through the application of more technology..." John W Aldridge
"Noise" comes in 4 designer colors: white, pink, brown, and black. Depending on the context each of these can either increase, have no affect, or decrease information in a message. She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
Synapses fire apparently randomly, where no upstream dendritic input appears. Maybe they are just test firing. Clearing their throats. One of the most powerful neural actions is the choir. In a choir, a singer slightly off key is not noticed if there are enough other singers.
The choir effect makes it possible, for instance, to throw a ball accurately where the time window for release is only several milliseconds. You can't be me, I'm taken
It's a visualisation process, you can build the model in your head in multiple dimensions and appreciate the implications as a real thing, even if mathematically it can only be expressed abstractly.
So I've always taken a view that anybody who studies this beyond degree level is going to tend towards left-handedness. keep to the Fen Causeway
in italy, a geometra is a land surveyor...and the noun is interestingly feminine...
can't wait for the diary...
geo- anything is cool these days, except geo-politics, i guess, and geo climate change, and geo starving... 'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty
i missed you...though i enjoy your comments on booman.
glad to have you back, especially with such a cryptically, typically rich comment.
just found your fuller offering about bang vs. whimper on the recent comments page.
yeah, now that's a great post.
welcome back, you're a treat to read... 'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty
somethings you can eat don't nourish, some spells you create don't 'take'......
yet......
doesn't quantum mechanics kinda redefine the word 'work' in physics, anyway? 'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty
things that make you go hmmm 'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty
mastery comes the hard way, and reveals itself by making it look easy.
do not adjust your consciousness...there is only a minor programming difficulty.... 'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty
No detached clockmaker here! The Fates are kind.
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