Welcome to European Tribune. It's gone a bit quiet around here these days, but it's still going.

Lest we forget...

by olivia Mon Nov 14th, 2005 at 05:25:07 AM EST

Back from the front page ~ whataboutbob

Hello EuroTribbers... whataboutbob invited me to post my Remembrance Day Diary here, so let me introduce myself briefly. I'm a regular poster at Booman Tribune. I live in Ottawa, Canada. I do visit European Tribune often; this is my first diary here though. Days such as this one serve to remind me that the world can be a very small place. Peace.



Remembrance Day, taken 11.11.2005 (view large)

(More after the fold)

I am really rather afraid, but more afraid to stay at home with my conscience.*

In Flanders Fields the poppies blow
Between the crosses, row on row,
That mark our place; and in the sky
The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below.

We are the Dead. Short days ago
We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
Loved, and were loved, and now we lie
In Flanders fields.

Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch, be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields

~Lieutenant Colonel John McCrae*


Poppy field, taken by flickrist phitar

~

God and the soldier
All men adore
In time of trouble,
And no more;
For when war is over
And all things righted,
God is neglected--
The old soldier slighted.

~Anonymous


War Memorial, taken 9.24.2005

~

Oh, I have slipped the surly bonds of earth
And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings;
Sunward I've climbed, and joined the tumbling mirth
Of sun-split clouds--and done a hundred things
You have not dreamed of--wheeled and soared and swung
High in the sunlit silence. Hov'ring there,
I've chased the shouting wind along, and flung
My eager craft through footless halls of air.
Up, up the long, delirious burning blue
I've topped the windswept heights with easy grace
Where never lark, or even eagle flew.
And, while with silent, lifting mind I've trod
The high untresspassed sanctity of space,
Put out my hand, and touched the face of God.

~John Gillespie Magee, Jr. (1922-1941)

Sunset, taken by flickrist creativity+

I will not forget.

__
* Alternate link d/t Veterans Affairs Canada webpage problems.

Cross-posted at Booman Tribune, and my personal blog, parvum opus.

Display:
Lest we forget... | 48 comments (48 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)
A heartfelt Thank You! (4.00 / 2)
To all who served and are serving. That I will never forget their sacrifice, is a only small measure of my gratitude.
by olivia on Fri Nov 11th, 2005 at 03:21:57 PM EST
Re: Lest we forget... (4.00 / 2)
Moving diaries get front-paged. Thank you for bringing this over here...it is still Rememberance Day here, so it only seems fitting...(and beautiful poems...)

"Once in awhile we get shown the light, in the strangest of places, if we look at it right" - Hunter/Garcia
by whataboutbob on Fri Nov 11th, 2005 at 03:32:39 PM EST
Woah! (none / 1)
Thank you whataboutbob. I'm honoured, truly.
by olivia on Fri Nov 11th, 2005 at 03:36:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Woah! (4.00 / 2)
Being an American, I know what "Veterans Day" is. But I didn't know that the rest of the world commemorates the same day for all who lost their lives in wars in conflicts (not just nations, but including the UN too). Typical...my mind keeps getting expanded...

"Once in awhile we get shown the light, in the strangest of places, if we look at it right" - Hunter/Garcia
by whataboutbob on Fri Nov 11th, 2005 at 05:20:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Lest we forget... (4.00 / 3)
Thanks a lot, Olivia.

Many of us French know how much we owe to those who crossed the seas to help us get rid of the barbary...

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

by Melanchthon on Fri Nov 11th, 2005 at 05:22:37 PM EST
Thanks Melanchthon (4.00 / 2)
Yes. The idea of the world coming together to fight seems so distant in light of the divisions we're witnessing today.

Nice to see you over here (vs in the FBCafe)!

by olivia on Fri Nov 11th, 2005 at 06:10:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Lest we forget... (4.00 / 4)
Not to demean the sacrifices that were made, but coming from Spain I actually feel a bit resentful that Spain was basically hung out to dry by the allies before, during and after WWII.

First, when the Nationalist coup failed to unseat Spain's People's Front government in 1936, the rest of Western democracies (notably the US, UK and France) declared themselves neutral and the League of Nations enforced an arms embargo on Spain which Hitler and Mussolini dutifully ignored. That threw the Spanish Republic in the hands of Stalin, who was all too happy to have the Communist-controlled Republican Army fight the Anarchist militias and the Socialist government as much as they fought the Fascists. By the way, this is the reason why I was opposed to the international Arms embargo during the Yugoslav civil war, but that's another story.

Then, the Spanish Republican Refugees were treated like shit by France after their defeat (basically penned in concentration camps), and corresponded by dutifully fighting for the Free French and helping the Allies mop up the Germans after D-Day. They must have hoped that Franco would be taken on after Hitler and Mussolini, but it was not to be.

Finally, as the war was coming to an end Franco's anticommunism outweighed his Fascism in the eyes of the Allies, who were already preparing for the Cold War. So, the Spanish Republicans had to content themselves with lobbying to keep Spain out of the UN, and they succeeded until about 1955, when Eisenhower visited Spain to welcome Franco into the "Free World". Too bad the Spanish people had to wait until the death of the Dictator to free themselves.

Then Spain, was allowed to send its people to Europe as guest workers to fuel the German Miracle, and opened up to tourism in the 1960's. So not only did Spain have to endure 10 years of isolation but we also missed out on the Marshall Plan. Just in case you wonder why Spain and Portugal are so far behind the rest of Western Europe economically.

So, yeah, we're very grateful.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Nov 11th, 2005 at 06:19:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Lest we forget... (4.00 / 2)
Some experienced camps twice: I believe something like 30,000 Spanish Republican refugees who were still in these French "transit" camps when the Nazis invaded France ("transit camps" => places in which they were at best neglected to the point of hunger, freezing, disease, and therefore death, at worst enrolled for labour) were easily re-grouped and deported to concentration camps in Germany and Austria (being Communists ...).
by Alex in Toulouse on Fri Nov 11th, 2005 at 09:08:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Lest we forget... (4.00 / 3)
Lovely diary, Olivia!

I thought we should take a moment to remember the women who serve as well.  I've been lucky that none of my male ancestors were lost to war, but I actually have a 2nd great-grandmother from Ireland who was.  

My cousin, a military buff, tells me that her husband, my gr-gr-grandfather, must have been a seargent because it was their wives who travelled with the army and did the cooking.  In any event, she was killed and is buried in Karachi (sp?) which I believe is now part of Pakistan?

And during WWII, my grandmother was in the Land Army in Scotland.  With the men gone, the women did the farming.  Here's a photo of my gran (the middle) and a couple of others.  I sort of like the uniforms!

Image Hosted by ImageShack.us

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes

by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Nov 11th, 2005 at 05:30:35 PM EST
oops (none / 1)
That photo came out bigger than I thought.  If it's too big for the thread, feel free to remove it (gnomes?)...

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes
by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Nov 11th, 2005 at 05:33:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: oops (4.00 / 3)
it's fitting fine izzy...lets leave her there...

"Once in awhile we get shown the light, in the strangest of places, if we look at it right" - Hunter/Garcia
by whataboutbob on Fri Nov 11th, 2005 at 05:43:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thank you Izzy (none / 1)
I like your picture! I think their costume is interesting ... sort of work on the bottom with the boots and pants, but more dressy on the top. Very cute!

The photo above of the War Memorial, which is the National Memorial to our Fallen, does honour women's contribution in the form of nursing sisters cast in bronze along with all the branches of service (link).

by olivia on Fri Nov 11th, 2005 at 06:07:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Thank you Izzy (none / 1)
Thanks, Olivia!  

I don't know about the pants, but I'd totally wear that little jacket on the left, although, is it just me or does the poor woman wearing it bear an uncanny resemblence to Jeff Goldblum?

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes

by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Nov 11th, 2005 at 06:17:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Lest we forget... (4.00 / 4)
My father died way back in 1964, but he was a 1st Mate in the Merchant Marines on a supply tugboat in the Southwestern Pacific, mostly in the Philappines region during WWII. He was never considered a veteran, as the Merchant Marines weren't recognized...but I just recently discovered that the Merchant Marines now have been recognized for their important contributions in all the wars and conflicts too, and are now considered veterans. So hat's off to ya dad, where ever you may be...

"Once in awhile we get shown the light, in the strangest of places, if we look at it right" - Hunter/Garcia
by whataboutbob on Fri Nov 11th, 2005 at 05:48:48 PM EST
Re: Lest we forget... (4.00 / 2)
I read about that, Bob.  And I've also read that the American Merchant Marines were sent on some really risky missions which they performed bravely and with little acknowledgement at the time.

My grandfather's people were all whalers from Shetland.  My grandfather and his brother didn't want to be whalers, but they ended up going to sea anyway.  My grandpa was in the Navy during WWII, and spent the rest of his career in the Merchant Navy.

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes

by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Nov 11th, 2005 at 06:04:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Merchant Marines... (4.00 / 2)
...did do some of the most dangerous work. Often they were underage, also women too. Just recently (2000) in Canada the Merchant Marines were fully recognized by the government after a tense situation where the veterans held protest fasts on Parliament Hill.

My grandfather was in the Royal Navy, and spent WWII on a warship. Thankfully he came home to us.

by olivia on Fri Nov 11th, 2005 at 06:19:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Lest we forget... (4.00 / 3)
I distance myself from the spirit and content of the above diary. In my opinion it doesn't represent a valid contribution to the public discourse in France, Germany and Belgium. Quite on the contrary, it falls way, way back behind the recommendations of the joint Franco/German historic school book commission and what is the shared view between our countries. I feel particularly offended by the cheap poetry and its recurrent reference to "God" and "eagles". And I can -obviously- not relate to "torches" that must be past on to quarrel with the "foe". (Quarrel? - not mass slaughter of human beings?) I also reject the notion that a dead soldiers' place should be 'marked' by 'rows and rows'. It is actually a quite disgusting display of yet another triumph of militarism, because it dehumanises the individual citizen and puts him in a rigidly choreographed mass of subjects. And last but not least I don't 'adore God and soldiers' I don't even 'thank them for their service'. The troops were drafted, they didn't go to war on their own well informed will. They had no choice and were not allowed to make a decision. And it is not true that the soldiers were loved by the Flemish people.

I find this line totally revolting:

"Up, up the long, delirious burning blue
I've topped the windswept heights with easy grace
Where never lark, or even eagle flew."

Here is my poetic answer to that:

http://www.archivio-zeta.org/immagini/persiani/vela.JPG

It shows you the 'eagle's wing', the triumphant arrow on top of the Futa pass mountain, it is the monument which you reach after a tormentuous climb following the, at first first, long winding, and then, ever more narrowly spiralling steep path up the hill. The visitor can only venture short and very restricted glimpses on the adjacent war graves, the open view is constantly hindered and blocked by trees, rocks and a stone wall which runs alongside the path. This never allows him/her to see the whole cemitery. The visitor will also be shielded from the wind during his two km long climb and begin to sweat and suffer from the heat of the 'blue skies'. All the while he will see the 'eagle's wing' high above him in the distance.

It is only when he will reach the plateau, right on the top of the mountain, that he will be stepping out of the wind sheltering 'trench'. It is in this instant that he will be hit hard by gusts of wind and look up to the monument right above him and discover the the 'eagles wing' which he saw from the distance was never capable to 'fly'. It is broken. It doesn't rise up into the sky. The broken edge points down towards the graves. Which can only from here, from under the broken wing, be seen for the first time in their entirety. The 'delirious' spiral never 'topped the windswept heights with easy grace'. It was an illusion. There was never an 'eagle's wing. It has been always a broken arrow.

http://www.heinrich-haus.de/Futaweb/skizzefriedhof.jpg

"The USA appears destined by fate to plague America with misery in the name of liberty." Simon Bolivar, Caracas, 1819

by Ritter on Fri Nov 11th, 2005 at 06:18:09 PM EST
Sorry to offend you... (none / 1)
... that was not my intention at all.

I read the poems above figuratively, and the reference to God as an overarching spirt of one's choosing. And the final poem I view as transcendence to something greater.

The importance of the marking the day is to take a moment to reflect, not to celebrate militarism in any way.

Again, sorry to offend.

by olivia on Fri Nov 11th, 2005 at 06:32:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Lest we forget... (4.00 / 3)
Thanks for the links, Ritter, and for giving another point of view.  Also to Migeru's above.

In general, I don't like anything that glorifies or, worse, celebrates war.  That said, I consider honoring the dead to be somewhat of a different matter.  It is the rulers who declare wars and the people who fight them.  I don't have a problem remembering people who fought and gave their lives, even if their rulers weren't doing the right thing.

Maybe this makes no difference, I don't know, but my heart goes out to anyone who was caught up in these tragic events.  And I do think it's important to remember.  I think it's important to reflect on the human costs of political decisions and try to figure out how the hell to stop the powerful from doing this.

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes

by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Nov 11th, 2005 at 06:35:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Lest we forget... (none / 1)
It is a debate that me and one lefty friend and I have often, involving Iraq now. I am not a nationalist, but do believe that if a person gives themselves to public/national service (and there are many kinds), they should be honored.

Now if a person behaves in a way that dishonors themself, then that is another issue. And there are the countries that use war and benefit from it, that is wrong (and sick)

My friend feels strongly that all soldiers are complicit with the death of innocents...especially in Iraq.

In WWII there was required a concerted effort to stop someone who was out of control. I think that was a good thing. But on reading Migeru's post above, I am reminded that nothing is always clear and simple, especially in war.

And lest I sound like I am romanticizing war...war is horror.

"Once in awhile we get shown the light, in the strangest of places, if we look at it right" - Hunter/Garcia

by whataboutbob on Sat Nov 12th, 2005 at 01:14:57 AM EST
Re: Lest we forget... (4.00 / 2)
WWII was certainly felt by a lot of people to be a war worth fighting, and based on what I know I would probably have felt the same. But "honouring the dead" is a sentiment too often and too easily manipulated by those in power. Just like "supporting the troops".

I agree that we owe our current freedom and well-being to those who fought in WWII but I don't know what we'll owe to those fighting in Iraq today. Possibly an apology for allowing them to be sent there, but at some point soldiers have to be held acocuntable for following illegal orders. And you have to know what you're getting yourself into when you join the military. If the price of upholding human dignity is a court martial and (in time of war) possibly execution, you have to know you are in the wrong institution.

And your "lefty friend" is not alone in thinking soldiers are complicit in the deaths of civilians. The Charter of the Nuremberg Tribunal agrees:

Article 8.

The fact that the Defendant acted pursuant to order of his Government or of a superior shall not free him from responsibility, but may be considered in mitigation of punishment if the Tribunal determines that justice so requires.

Nuremberg made it clear that the first duty of a soldier is to refuse criminal orders.

So, however justified it is to fight to defend your own, Gernika, the Battle of Britain or Manchuria are no excuse for Dresden, the firebombing of Tokyo or Hiroshima.

When Rumsfeld announced a "shock and awe" campaign and said "there won't be a safe place to hide in Baghdad" (a city of 6 million), what do you think he was talking about? Airdropping the flowers with which the American liberators would be greeted? So, the right thing to do for the Joint Chiefs of Staff would have been to hand Rummy and Bush their asses on a plate. As it is, they are all war criminals, by the laws the US itself enacted for Nuremberg.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Nov 12th, 2005 at 04:00:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Lest we forget... (none / 0)
I'm a lefty too, but I happen to see it from a few different angles. For one, the military is the way out of the ghetto for many people of color in the US, and a way into the system. Like it or not, for many it is an opportunity, and Markos at dkos had a lot to say about that (being an ex-vet who gained a lot from that experience). I also think that many Americans who signed up for the military, national guard or reserves assumed they would be only called to battle if it was really a threat. They are now caught up in doing someone's dirty work, and it is not protecting the US or the West...and I am pretty sure a good many of those people are pissed at what they are having to do. And now they have people trying to kill them at every turn and corner, and in that situation it is kill or be killed. No one wins in that situation.

Additionally, having been a psychologist and counselor for many years, I have worked with many veterans, including helping homeless Vietnam veterans get off the street. Whether one of these people committed atrocities, I would not know...it was not my job to wave my finger in their face and tell them how immoral or how un-ethical it was for them to have done that. In fact, it would have been extremely unethical for me to do that, when a person is coming to me for help. I have talked about it a few times when they initiated the discussion, but that person will have to come to terms with their own moral dilemmas.

My point in all this is: it is not so black and white...

"Once in awhile we get shown the light, in the strangest of places, if we look at it right" - Hunter/Garcia

by whataboutbob on Sat Nov 12th, 2005 at 10:19:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A humorous reply (4.00 / 3)
Let me just quote this scene from the movie Clerks:
Blue-Collar Man: Excuse me. I don't mean to interrupt, but what were you talking about?
Randal: The ending of Return of the Jedi.
Dante: My friend is trying to convince me that any contractors working on the uncompleted Death Star were innocent victims when the space station was destroyed by the rebels.
Blue-Collar Man: Well, I'm a contractor myself. I'm a roofer... (digs into pocket and produces business card) Dunn and Reddy Home Improvements. And speaking as a roofer, I can say that a roofer's personal politics come heavily into play when choosing jobs.
Randal: Like when?
Blue-Collar Man: Three months ago I was offered a job up in the hills. A beautiful house with tons of property. It was a simple reshingling job, but I was told that if it was finished within a day, my price would be doubled. Then I realized whose house it was.
Dante: Whose house was it?
Blue-Collar Man: Dominick Bambino's.
Randal: "Babyface" Bambino? The gangster?
Blue-Collar Man: The same. The money was right, but the risk was too big. I knew who he was, and based on that, I passed the job on to a friend of mine.
Dante: Based on personal politics.
Blue-Collar Man: Right. And that week, the Foresci family put a hit on Babyface's house. My friend was shot and killed. He wasn't even finished shingling.
Randal: No way!
Blue-Collar Man: (paying for coffee) I'm alive because I knew there were risks involved taking on that particular client. My friend wasn't so lucky. (pauses to reflect) You know, any contractor willing to work on that Death Star knew the risks. If they were killed, it was their own fault. A roofer listens to this... (taps his heart) not his wallet.


A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Nov 12th, 2005 at 02:30:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: A humorous reply (none / 1)
Ah, the movie career-choice dilemma.  One of my favorites is John Cusack's in Say Anything.  He's having dinner with his girlfriend's well-to-do family and the father is questioning him about what he does and what his plans are.  He finally says:

"I don't want to sell anything, buy anything or process anything as a career. I don't want to sell anything bought or processed, buy anything sold or processed, or process anything sold, bought or processed, or repair anything sold, bought or processed--you know--as a career. I don't want to do that. My father's in the Army. He wants me to join, but I can't work for that corporation. Um...so what I've been doing lately is kickboxing, which is a new sport, but I think it's got a good future."


Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes
by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Nov 12th, 2005 at 02:48:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A serious reply (4.00 / 2)
For one, the military is the way out of the ghetto for many people of color in the US, and a way into the system. Like it or not, for many it is an opportunity, and Markos at dkos had a lot to say about that (being an ex-vet who gained a lot from that experience).
The poverty draft is not an excuse for the military but an indictment of our society, IMHO. Anyway, this gives me an excuse to review the  functions of the military...
  1. upwards mobility
  2. massive Keynesian spending
  3. public employment
  4. public training
The military provides all of the above in exchange for killing and being killed to protect elite business interests. It also does it in a manner acceptable to conservatives. If we are going to allow the government to carry out such socialist objectives, we might as well do it openly and by investing in infrastructure. There is also the Rumsfeld/Cheney option of privatizing these functions (but still funding them out of taxes) by employing independent contractors (Halliburton) and mercenaries (Blackwater) instead of GIs.

Since you mention psychological counseling of veterans, I have been trying to track down some excerpts of Dave Grossman's On Killing that I have quoted elsewhere, but I can't seem to find them now. Anyway, I read them as an indication that, in many ways, combat training possibly, and certainly the experience of war, seriously hinders people's ability to function normally in civilian society in time of peace. And this is over and above PTSD, as one component of basic training is conditioning recruits to be able to dehumanize other people in order to kill them. Stan Goff (see the sections on "gender" and "military") also writes eloquently and persuasively about the pathological masculinity that is pervasive in the military and, it would seem, tacitly understood to be essential to its function.

It may not be black and white, but it's pretty bleak.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Nov 12th, 2005 at 02:57:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: A serious reply (none / 1)
I should also say, that I am not disagreeing with you on many of your points and arguments, Migeru. The number of billions being spent on the war machine, in general, and iraq in specific...is enough to do a whole lot of peace building around the world. So it is a bit absurd to be arguing with you on that point...so I won't.

But...when it gets down to the individual person...it is just not that simple, is all. I have tried not to judge people who were warriors, but rather to be open to where they were at the moment they were talking with me, which was usually about some sort of pain they were in.

From another perspective, let's look at a person who is a policeman. I've been threatened by policemen before...but despite that, I generally feel good that there are people who have taken on the role of protecting society. I wouldn't do it, but glad someone is. I wish we didn't need the military, other than for relief operations...

"Once in awhile we get shown the light, in the strangest of places, if we look at it right" - Hunter/Garcia

by whataboutbob on Sat Nov 12th, 2005 at 05:05:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: A serious reply (none / 1)
It must be a collective subconscious kind of thing, but part of my Spanish heritage is a distrust for all law enforcement at the gut level. I have no rational basis for it, but my first impulse when I see police approaching is to cross over to the other side of the road.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Nov 12th, 2005 at 05:17:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: A serious reply (4.00 / 2)
WaB,

it is bigger than the 'me' and 'him' thing.

It has since long become a conglomerate which consists of publicly worshipping the flag, always reciting the pledge of allegiance, the continuous ritornello to 'support the troops', the insistent references made to ones military service (i.e. presidential candidates), the publicly rendered appraisal (on C-Span) to service man: 'thank you for your service', the way people introduce themselves on tv shows "I, as a Korean, Vietnam war veteran" etc., the earnest, somber marches of naval, army and air-force personnel 'trooping the flag(s)' at national (party) conventions, the singing of the national anthem at football, baseball games and at political party congresses,etc.pp.

And who could ever forget Kerry's opening remark at the Democratic Convention? 'Ready for duty'.

It is sick.

Sicker than what happened during the last 20 years of the East Block and the USSR. It is probaly worse than what goes on in China today.

"The USA appears destined by fate to plague America with misery in the name of liberty." Simon Bolivar, Caracas, 1819

by Ritter on Sat Nov 12th, 2005 at 06:07:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: A serious reply (4.00 / 3)
Y'know, I agree with almost every one of your points.

However, you know what else is sick?  or possibly just stupid?  railing against human nature.  Refusing to discuss a problem that costs millions of lives among people who are obviously open to that discussion.

I understand that these sorts of events are often so painful that it's difficult not to have an emotional response, but I don't think we can afford to indulge in that.

I didn't think this thread was about war or the powers that have declared war.  I didn't think there was any celebration or approval in it, but I could be wrong.  As I explained earlier, I thought it was about people.

Now the argument seems to be being made here that the people who fight in wars should somehow stand up or not fight or refuse orders.  And I can see that case being made in the abstract, or in very specific incidences, but not in general.  Nuremburg was mentioned and "following orders" was not a defense.  But that was for specific cases.  Even in that instance, the whole military wasn't convicted.

Also, I admit I'm not that educated and don't study war because I hate it, but I've never heard of an example in all of history where a war didn't happen because all the soldiers decided not to fight.  So far as I'm aware, people are led into war and later the ends are declared.  These decisions come from the top, not some democratic process.

So to me, this argument that the soldiers are responsible for is just unrealistic.  I also don't like a lot of things corporations do, but I'm not going to blame all of the employees and shareholders.  Like Bob and Migeru, I don't like the police all that much -- in fact I think many of the policies they enforce in the name of the drug prohibition are just as bad as any other war -- but I'm not going to blame them for the laws.

I'm very much against the death penalty.  But I don't think we'll get rid of it by shunning lawyers, or expecting judges and guards to simply refuse to do their jobs.

I feel the same about Veteran's day that I do about Labor day -- it's good and honorable to remember the people who have died.  It's good to discuss what happens to the little guys when power becomes absolute.  And from that remembrance, we should bring forth discussions about how to not let it happen again.  It's also a very good time to find out things we have in common, from whatever side we're on, to connect shared experiences.

I posted a photo of my grandma upthread and also told a story about my (turns out 3rd) great-grandmother -- not because I'm a warmonger or was happy about them being involved in war, but to say this happened in my family, too.  Maybe we have stuff in common.  I haven't seen anyone here making judgments about one side or the other being right or better.  

In fact, I'm quite sure that war my Irish gran died in was probably really bad and unjust.  But I'm not going to judge her for going, because her people were dying of starvation.  And if this was a labor day thread, I might post a photo of my gr-grandfather who went down into the mines when he was 11 and lost the sight in one eye.  

He was also orphaned because his mother died in childbirth and his father died young of black lung.  The coal industry has done terrible things and are responsible for countless deaths and illnesses, but I don't judge my ancestors for having worked for them.  Remembering him and telling his story wouldn't mean I was praising the industry.

It's human nature to talk about the dead, and to honor them.  Sadly, it's also human nature to fight.  For the most part, we've acknowledged that people can act in ways that aren't very nice, and we have lots of laws, governments, and other constructs to protect us from each other.  What we don't seem to have learned yet, though, is how to control the constructs.  

Expecting regular people to not participate in systems that they've constructed doesn't seem very realistic to me.  What the systems are doing now is sick, I agree.  But I also think it's futile to rail against the low-end participants.  You've pointed out some big problems, what do you think the solutions are?

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes

by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Nov 12th, 2005 at 08:39:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: A serious reply (4.00 / 2)
I've never heard of an example in all of history where a war didn't happen because all the soldiers decided not to fight.
Well, there is  the classical satire Lysistrata, in which the women of Athend refuse to have sex with the men until the Pelopponeisan War is ended.

Now seriously, consider the German Revolution of 1918, which resulted in The Establishment of the Weimar Republic:

Rebellion broke out when, on October 29, the military command, without consultation with the government, ordered the German High Seas Fleet to sortie. This was not only entirely hopeless from a military standpoint, but was also certain to bring the peace negotiations to a halt. The crews of two ships in Wilhelmshaven mutinied. When the military arrested about 1,000 seamen and had them transported to Kiel, the local revolt turned into a general rebellion that quickly swept over most of Germany. Other seamen, soldiers and workers, in solidarity with the arrested, began electing worker and soldier councils modelled after the soviets of the Russian Revolution of 1917, and took over military and civil powers in many cities. On November 7, the revolution had reached Munich, causing Ludwig III of Bavaria to flee.

There are many cases in history where regimes collapse because the security forces refuse to follow the Government's orders to repress civil unrest. Ultimately, the police and the military are the people, and if pushed to the limit will refuse to carry out their orders. Foot soldiers are more likely to rebel than officers because they are less committed to the institution.

Regimes don't colapse as soon as their grip on society or their popular support lessens, but only when their lack of legitimacy becomes apparent. Usually this is exposed by some otherwise minor event. Revolutions are not caused by their triggers. The causes are what poise the system on the brink of collapse. The trigger is just what pushes it past the tipping point.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Nov 12th, 2005 at 09:02:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: A serious reply (none / 1)
There are many cases in history where regimes collapse because the security forces refuse to follow the Government's orders to repress civil unrest. Ultimately, the police and the military are the people, and if pushed to the limit will refuse to carry out their orders

I knew this part and probably should've added something about "until overall conditions become unbearable."  You yourself say "if pushed to the limit."  So obviously, this will happen when the whole of the general populace is unhappy with the situation.  A similar thing happened during Bolivia's last uprising.

So yes, I know that people start refusing to fight when the whole of the population's opinion has turned.  But that's not the case now, and probably won't be for quite some time.  Do we want to wait that long?  My question, really, is how to change this without letting things run their ugly course?  Are there ways to divert or prevent power from running amok?  Or do we just have to let these brute forces play out to their ends?  It's my opinion we don't.

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes

by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Nov 12th, 2005 at 09:41:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: A serious reply (none / 0)
excellent comment...

"Once in awhile we get shown the light, in the strangest of places, if we look at it right" - Hunter/Garcia
by whataboutbob on Mon Nov 14th, 2005 at 05:16:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: A serious reply (none / 0)
one component of basic training is conditioning recruits to be able to dehumanize other people in order to kill them.

According to a documentary I saw on German television a few years ago, the US training methods are in significant part based on Nazi research - an especially inhuman part of Nazi war crimes.

After the Wehrmacht command was bothered by the high rate of soldiers with 'killing inhibition' (up to above 50% in all wars with conscripts until the Vietnam War) a special unit of Nazi scientists conducted 'live' tests, ordering soldiers to shoot selected groups of death camp inmates or PoWs, watching the soldiers' behavior. Dehumanizing was one thing focused on, group binding (i.e. not allegiance to the commander or the nation, but fellow unit members) was another strong factor. After WWII, the US Army seized documents and took it home. According to the documentary, 'lessons' were fully applied in training by the time of the Vietnam War.

(On the other hand, watching/reading any US WWII or earlier war stories with this in mind, I now notice that elements were already there earlier.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Mon Nov 14th, 2005 at 12:33:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Lest we forget... (4.00 / 2)
My great-grandfather was killed in action in 1904 when he volunteered for a suicide attack on the Russian trench in the Russo-Japanese war. Soldiers were told to wear white bands around their shoulders (for whatever reason) and ran in a single column. Russian machine guns mowed them down easily. (Europeans should have learned from this disaster what a modern war was like.) Of course, I never met him, I don't even have his pictures. That war was one between two imperial powers, and, while a defeat would have been s serious blow to our external aspirations, was arguably unnecessary.

Japanese television recently showed a program about Vietnamese/Japanese kids born after 1945 between Japanese soldiers who chose to remain in the country and Vietnamese girls.  The soldiers joined Ho Chi-min's Vietming and fought the French. I guess some of them made the decision for living, but some really wanted to help Vietnam gain independence from colonialism. The soldiers eventually left the country and went home in the 50s. Kids who were left behind had a hard time, as Japan towed the American policy and openly allied with the South. One of the kids (now in the 50s) said on camera, "I spent school days fighting my classmates who said I was a child of the enemy." He applied for the North Vietnamese Army 11 times and was rejected each time. He says, "I still regret I was rejected. I really wanted to go to the war and fight Americans. I really wanted to show I am a patriot." ...I am sure, if accepted, he would have died a heroic death, perhaps volunteering for an  attack on the US Embassy in the 1968 Tet offensive.

I will become a patissier, God willing.

by tuasfait on Sat Nov 12th, 2005 at 09:06:01 PM EST
Re: Lest we forget... (4.00 / 3)
the soldiers which threw away their arms and deserted the trenches.

Here are a few photos of monuments which honor their actions.

Potsdam

http://www.deserteur-denkmal.de/bilder/denkmal%20in%20potsdam.!jpg

HIER LEBTE EIN MANN,
DER SICH GEWEIGERT HAT
AUF SEINE MITMENSCHEN ZU SCHIEßEN.
EHRE SEINEM ANDENKEN.

translation

Here lived a man
who refused
to shoot at his fellow citizens.
Honor his memory.

Kurt Tuchoslsky, 1925

Berlin - Bernau

http://www.friedensfahnen.de/bilder/deserteur_denkmal.JPG

Ulm

http://www.offenehuette.de/bilder/deserte4.jpg

Lüneburg - Celle

http://www.antikriegshaus.de/DesertDenkmWinter2.jpg

Other public monuments to remember the deserteurs were erected in the cities of

Barsinghausen, Frankfurt, Kassel, Sievershausen,
Braunschweig, Göttingen, Mannheim,
Bremen, Goslar, Marburg, Wuppertal,
Dortmund, Hamburg-Blankensee, München, Stuttgart,  
Flensburg, Hannover, Peine, Berlin

A French song which pays tribute to the deserteurs:

http://www.graz.gruene.at/ries/sound/deserteur_un_jour2.mp3

"The USA appears destined by fate to plague America with misery in the name of liberty." Simon Bolivar, Caracas, 1819

by Ritter on Sun Nov 13th, 2005 at 05:34:37 AM EST
Re: Lest we forget... (4.00 / 2)
Corrected link:

http://www.deserteur-denkmal.de/bilder/denkmal%20in%20potsdam.jpg

"The USA appears destined by fate to plague America with misery in the name of liberty." Simon Bolivar, Caracas, 1819

by Ritter on Sun Nov 13th, 2005 at 05:37:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Lest we forget... (none / 0)
Thanks for the links and transcription, Ritter!  I had no idea these monuments existed.

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes
by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Nov 13th, 2005 at 01:07:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Lest we forget... (4.00 / 2)
Yeah, it is quite a big deal when you think that there is a monument in the centre of Potsdam - the heart chamber of Prussian militarism and the residential town of the Prussian kings. It could probably only be matched with a deserters monument at Westpoint military academy.

"The USA appears destined by fate to plague America with misery in the name of liberty." Simon Bolivar, Caracas, 1819
by Ritter on Sun Nov 13th, 2005 at 02:10:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Lest we forget... (4.00 / 2)
There are a few in France as well - anti-military memorials built after WWI. They've been controversial for a long time.


S.K: Il existe un livre très intéressant de Danielle et Pierre Roy qui a été écrit avec l'aide logistique de la Fédération Nationale Laïque des Associations des Amis des monuments pacifistes, républicains et anticléricaux. Ce livre s `appelle Autour de monuments aux morts pacifistes en France. Y sont cités sur toute la France, tous les monuments pacifistes, du moins tous les monuments connus ; la liste n'est pas exhaustive. Il faut savoir que le Comité Laïque de Gentioux est adhérent de la Fédération Nationale Laïque des Associations des Amis des monuments pacifistes laïques et républicains et anticléricaux. Danielle et Pierre Roy classent ces monuments en plusieurs catégories.

La première catégorie, ce sont les monuments qui maudissent la guerre. C'est le cas à Gentioux qu'on connaît maintenant. C'est aussi le cas du monument de Saint Martin -d'Estreaux dans la Loire Ce monument est très chargé en inscriptions et fait le bilan de la guerre en victimes, en orphelins. Il y a une inscription sur la volonté de tuer la guerre et la phrase : « Si tu veux la paix prépare la paix ». Il propose de mettre l'argent de la guerre au profit de l'humanité et finit par la phrase : « Maudite soit la guerre et ses auteurs » [Damn War and its authors]. A Equeurdeville dans la Manche, le monument représente une femme avec deux orphelins avec en dessous la phrase : « Maudite soit la guerre » [Damn War]. Un autre monument est celui de Balnot - sur - Laignes dans l'Aube où figure l'inscription : » Maudite soit la guerre ».

La seconde catégorie concerne les monuments qui déclarent la guerre à la guerre. On peut citer celui de Gy - l'Evêque dans l'Yonne, celui de Chevillon (« Guerre à la Guerre - Fraternité entre les peuples »)[War to Wat. Fraternity between peoples]également dans l'Yonne. Aussi celui d'Aniane dans l'Hérault où il y a une phrase en patois : « La guerra qu'on vougut es la guerra a la guerra/ Son morts per nostra terra et per touta la terra ». Soit : « la guerre qu'ils ont voulue est la guerre à la guerre/Sont morts pour notre terre et pour toute la terre ». C'est à dire pour toute l'humanité. Il existe aussi le monument de Mazaugues dans le Var où est inscrit : « A bas toutes les guerres / Vive la République Universelle des Travailleurs/ L'Union des Travailleurs fera la paix dans le monde/ L'Humanité est maudite si, pour faire preuve de courage, elle est condamnée à tuer éternellement ». Cette dernière phrase,c'est Jaurès qui l'a écrite.
La troisième catégorie, ce sont les monuments avec intention antimilitariste. appelant à la fraternité entre les peuples. Comme à Levallois - Perret dans les Hauts-de-Seine, à Château-Arnoux dans les Alpes-de Haute-Provence où est écrit que « la guerre est un crime »[War is a Crime]. La quatrième catégorie concerne les monuments appelant à la fraternité entre les peuples. Tel le monument de Poncharra sur Bréda dans l'Isère. qui parle de « fraternité humaine ». Ou celui de Dardilly dans le Rhône qui dit : « contre la guerre et ses victimes la fraternité des peuples ». Egalement à Strasbourg, dans le Bas Rhin dont le monument représente une mère avec deux jeuness mourants à ses genoux, sans doute un allemand et un français, avec l'inscription : « à nos morts ».[The monument represents a mother with two dying children, one French and one German: "to our dead" - in some families in Alsace, brothers fought on opposite sides as the Germans forced severals tens of thousand of boys into the Wehrmacht]

Une autre catégorie, ce sont les monuments qui condamnent la guerre. Ainsi à Saint-Appolinaire dans le Rhône, où se trouve la phrase connue de Paul Valéry : « La guerre est le massacre de gens qui ne se connaissent pas au profit de gens qui, eux, se connaissent mais ne se massacrent pas ».[war is the massacre of people that don't know each other for the profit of people that know erach other, but do not kill each other] Il y a le monument d'Avion dans le Pas de Calais, de Lezoux dans le Puy-de-Dôme. Il faut ajouter les monuments sculptés par Emile Mompart dans le Lot et en Dordogne qui ont une forte représentation pacifiste.

From the Google cache

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Nov 14th, 2005 at 05:22:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Lest we forget... (none / 0)
A Equeurdeville dans la Manche, le monument représente une femme avec deux orphelins avec en dessous la phrase : « Maudite soit la guerre »

And also:

Egalement à Strasbourg, dans le Bas Rhin dont le monument représente une mère avec deux jeuness mourants à ses genoux, sans doute un allemand et un français, avec l'inscription : « à nos morts ».

This makes me think of what happened in Berlin.

The Neue Wache in Berlin, Unter den Linden, has been the GDR's Memorial to the Victims of Fascism and Militarism (East Germany.

It looked like that:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b1/Nva-ehrenwache.jpg/465px-Nva-ehrenwache.jpg

http://bethlam.atspace.com/guard.html

After unification it became the Central Memorial of Germany to the Victims of War and Tyranny. Some changes were made. The soldiers were withdrawn from the outside of the monument and a sculpture by K. Kollwitz showing a mourning mother holding her dead child was put inside.

It now looks like this:

http://cognections.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/image067.jpg

"The USA appears destined by fate to plague America with misery in the name of liberty." Simon Bolivar, Caracas, 1819

by Ritter on Tue Nov 15th, 2005 at 12:42:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Mensch, ach mensch! (4.00 / 3)
AUF SEINE MITMENSCHEN ZU SCHIEßEN.
...
to shoot at his fellow citizens.
his fellow human beings.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Nov 13th, 2005 at 05:49:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Mensch, ach mensch! (none / 0)
Funny, I was thinking about what the right term was. 'Human being' sounds to my ear too abstract. Like "essere umano'. 'Citizen' otoh hints too much at a societal role. Mind you it is not 'Mensch' but 'Mitmensch', so 'fellow' should be part of the construct. Perhaps there is a good yiddish NYC word for it? What about 'fellow mensch'?

"The USA appears destined by fate to plague America with misery in the name of liberty." Simon Bolivar, Caracas, 1819
by Ritter on Sun Nov 13th, 2005 at 07:44:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Mensch, ach mensch! (none / 0)
Well, Mitmenschen does translate as fellow men, but to avoid sexist language you could say fellow human. Then again, back in the 1920s it would have been translated as men.

After all all men are created equal..., man is the measure of all things, etc.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Nov 13th, 2005 at 08:32:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Mensch, ach mensch! (none / 0)
Fellow citizen is definitely the wrong meaning if what this man did was desert from the trenches of WWI.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Nov 13th, 2005 at 08:43:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
My ancestors (none / 0)
My direct ancestors were spared the worst during both World Wars because both fell in an inter-generation time. (But my families were hit heavily towards the end and after.)

One WWI story I do have tough is that of the half-brother of one of my great-grandmothers (the only money-earner of the family until my great-grandfather married in). He served throughout the war at the main killing fields for Hungarian soldiers, the Isonzo river at the Italian-Austro-Hungarian border (today Slovenia). Being too old for mountainside front fighting, he was entrusted with carrying soldiers' pay.

Just two-three weeks before the end of WWI, a robber stalked and shot him. The wound wasn't fatal, but in the mess at the end of the war, he couldn't be treated adequately - and died a painful, slow death due to various infections, with normal lung disease probably being the final one.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Mon Nov 14th, 2005 at 12:46:32 PM EST
Re: Lest we forget... (none / 0)
Well Olivia...my invitiation was an innocent one...hope you weren't chased or put off by the the debate. Please post more often...

"Once in awhile we get shown the light, in the strangest of places, if we look at it right" - Hunter/Garcia
by whataboutbob on Mon Nov 14th, 2005 at 05:19:48 PM EST
Re: Lest we forget... (none / 0)
Le Déserteur by Boris Vian

Monsieur le président
Je vous fais une lettre
Que vous lirez peut-être
Si vous avez le temps

Je viens de recevoir
Mes papiers militaires
Pour partir à la guerre
Avant mercredi soir

Monsieur le président
Je ne veux pas la faire
Je ne suis pas sur terre
Pour tuer des pauvres gens

C'est pas pour vous fâcher
Il faut que je vous dise
Ma décision est prise
Je m'en vais déserter

Depuis que je suis né
J'ai vu mourir mon père
J'ai vu partir mes frères
Et pleurer mes enfants
Ma mère a tant souffert
Elle est dedans sa tombe
Et se moque des bombes
Et se moque des vers

Quand j'étais prisonnier
On m'a volé ma femme
On m'a volé mon âme
Et tout mon cher passé

Demain de bon matin
Je fermerai ma porte
Au nez des années mortes
J'irai sur les chemins

Je mendierai ma vie
Sur les routes de France
De Bretagne en Provence
Et je dirai aux gens:
« Refusez d'obéir
Refusez de la faire
N'allez pas à la guerre
Refusez de partir »

S'il faut donner son sang
Allez donner le vôtre
Vous êtes bon apôtre
Monsieur le président

Si vous me poursuivez
Prévenez vos gendarmes
Que je n'aurai pas d'armes
Et qu'ils pourront tirer.

The difference between theory and practise in practise ...

by DeAnander (de_at_daclarke_dot_org) on Tue Nov 15th, 2005 at 06:48:49 PM EST
Re: Lest we forget... (none / 0)
"Paul"

Neunzehnhundertsiebzehn
an einem Tag unter Null geboren,

rannte er wild über den Kinderspielplatz,
fiel, und rannte weiter,

den Ball werfend über den Schulhof,
fiel, und rannte weiter,

das Gewehr im Arm über das Übungsgelände,
fiel, und rannte weiter

an einem Tag unter Null
in ein russisches Sperrfeuer

und fiel.

von Rainer Brambach (1917 - 1983) / Deutsch-Schweizer Dichter

The difference between theory and practise in practise ...

by DeAnander (de_at_daclarke_dot_org) on Tue Nov 15th, 2005 at 06:57:59 PM EST
Lest we forget... | 48 comments (48 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)


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