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More cars burning

by Jerome a Paris Mon Nov 7th, 2005 at 05:18:07 AM EST

1,400 last night, in fact, the majority in provincial cities now (around 400 in the greater Paris area).

I have nothing smart to add today, so I'll just pull this cartoon from Le Monde's Xavier de la Gorce:

Why burn everything?
Because we want recognition!
Why don't you take off your hoods to go on TV?
Because we don't want to be recognised!

Use as a "French riots" thread.


Display:
Remember the riots in the UK in 1981, Liverpool, Brixton and if I remember correctly other cities too.

Toxteth's long road to recovery

Liverpool's Toxteth area still sufferers from many of the problems which helped spark rioting 20 years ago, writes BBC News Online's Finlo Rohrer.

More than a week of rioting in 1981 left Toxteth, an already deprived Liverpool neighbourhood, looking like a war zone.

The severity of the disturbances, in which as many as 140 buildings were destroyed, sent shock waves across the country, even as far as Westminster.

The aftermath of the riot saw the home secretary, William Whitelaw, tour the smoking ruins before Margaret Thatcher herself chose to visit.

by Fran on Mon Nov 7th, 2005 at 05:26:36 AM EST
I hope that the situation in France can be looked back at as a healing crisis. Maybe we have been way to complacent in our live and I mean not only the French, but all in Western societies. As long as we can afford a car, vacations, a microwave and other gadgets we feel comfortable and tend to ignore, what does not fit into this picture. What is happening now in France and according to some current news also in other European cities can be in the long term a chance - to make changes, to make an effort to rebalance our societies in a more equal fashion.

I do believe that immigrants should adapt to a certain degree to their new home countries, however there way of live can also be enriching that country. In the end it is always a question of balance and we are currently reminded that there are many things out of balance and need to be adjusted - not only in Europe, but all over the world. We have ignored the destructiveness of the locusts for way to long, it is time to act. We often forget that balance and equilibrium are dynamic, not something we achieve and then it stays the same way, but something that has to be continuesly adjusted.

by Fran on Mon Nov 7th, 2005 at 10:58:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A slightly annoying article in this morning's FT (that must be because I am part of the French chattering elites, presumably):


Liberté, égalité et fraternité - but only for some

The violence appears to be the loudest wake-up call for France's ruling class, within which Mr Chirac has long thrived, and which has long lectured others on the success of its social model. Irritation in the French press about the news coverage the riots have received abroad also reflects how humbling they have been been for the chattering classes.

While much of the violence is happening only a few miles from the Elysée presidential palace, Mr Chirac and his ministers have until now preferred to ignore the growing social unrest rather than accept that France's integration model has failed.

This head-in-the-sand attitude is summed up by the president's refusal to allow Insee, the state statistics arm, to ask people about their ethnic origins in surveys and censuses, thus preventing anyone knowing how segregated French society has become.

Instead, Mr Chirac clings to the idea that all French citizens are equal under the republic's revolutionary ideal: Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité. In practice, this means immigrants are expected to adapt to France rather than the other way round.

This policy worked reasonably well when Italians, Armenians, east European Jews, Spaniards and Portuguese arrived during various periods of the 19th and 20th centuries and assimilated easily.

But the model has broken down for more recent waves of immigrants from former French colonies in north and sub-Saharan Africa. Many found themselves excluded from mainstream society, living in outer-city ghettoes. Their children, most of whom were born in France, find themselves in ghettoised schools and with little chance of gainful employment.

Previous immigrants, too, could easily adapt to France's insistence on a strict division between church and state. But Muslim immigrants in particular, who make up 10 per cent of France's population, have had a more difficult time adapting to a secular state - they felt singled out two years ago when the government banned the wearing of headscarves in schools.

First, to be pedant, it's liberté, égalité, fraternité, no "et" inserted.

Irritation in the French press about the news coverage the riots have received abroad also reflects how humbling they have been been for the chattering classes.

Yeah right, irritation is because the elites have been humbled (if only!) and not because the coverage has been sensationalist and driven by schadenfreude or French-bashing (and I am not even talking about the rightwing "Intifada" commentary). A surprising number of comments on dKos to my "aunt" diary basically accused me of rationalisation, denial or worse, just for giving a different point of view to the main viewpoint currently developed.

the president's refusal to allow Insee, the state statistics arm, to ask people about their ethnic origins in surveys and censuses

Amazing ignorance by that journalist. It's the law! Criticise the law, but not the authorities for respecting the law! Unbelievable.

all French citizens are equal under the republic's revolutionary ideal: Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité. In practice, this means immigrants are expected to adapt to France rather than the other way round.

WTF? France is supposed to adapt to immigrants? What's that supposed to mean, exactly? The issue is that France is not treating French kids as French kids but as somewhat inconvenient visitors. They Don't want France to change, but to accept them.

This policy worked reasonably well when Italians, Armenians, east European Jews, Spaniards and Portuguese arrived during various periods of the 19th and 20th centuries and assimilated easily.

But the model has broken down for more recent waves of immigrants from former French colonies in north and sub-Saharan Africa

Again, what unbelievable ignorance. Assimilated easily? Has this journalist not heard of the affaire Dreyfus? The fascist movements in the 30s? The hate against each of these successive waves of immigrants?

Previous immigrants, too, could easily adapt to France's insistence on a strict division between church and state.

Italian and Polish catholics? Really? That was not easy then.

I'll stand by my point. It's too early to tell if France will successfully integrate North Africans or not, but I am not at all pessimistic that we're on our way and we will. We only see the non-integrated minority, not the invisible integrated majority.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Nov 7th, 2005 at 08:22:11 AM EST
Perhaps a difference between "immigrant countries" and "non-immigrant countries" is that they DO adapt to the immigrants. Canada is a lot different now, with her many recent immigrants from the Far East, then she was 50 years ago. The U.S. has adopted characteristics from each new tide of immigration and is completely different now from how it was in, say, 1800 (when it was mostly British), 1850 (many new Germans), 1900 (Irish and Italians) and 1950 (European Jews).

If France is to successfully integrate 20% of a population that is Black, African, and Islamic, it will become a more Black, African, and Islamic country.

by asdf on Mon Nov 7th, 2005 at 08:37:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
France has ALWAYS been an immigrant country.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Nov 7th, 2005 at 08:49:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I was responding to your comment about whether France must change to accomodate them...
by asdf on Mon Nov 7th, 2005 at 06:31:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Some more UK press coverage
Chirac vows to restore order
LIBERTÉ? French Muslims banned from wearing headscarves in school.
ÉGALITÉ? France's non-whites twice as likely to be unemployed.
FRATERNITÉ? French government admits integration policies have failed.
RÉALITÉ: Riots erupt for eleventh night.

Riots erupted in France last night for the 11th day after a weekend in which cars were set alight in central Paris and the clashes spread to poor districts in towns across the nation.
and an accompanying FAQ
No intifada, no cause, just poor kids defending their territory
Is this France's intifada? Do the riots have wider significance for the West?

Talk of an intifada is absurdly misleading. Firstly, the rioters are far from being all Muslim (although more than half are from Islamic backgrounds). Second, they have no sense of political or religious identity and no political demands. Their allegiance is to their quartier and their gang. Their main demand, so far as can be established, is to be left alone by police and the Interior Minister, Nicolas Sark-ozy, to continue with their life of low-level violence and drugs trading. The wider significance is therefore not politico-religious but a warning of what happens if problems of deprivation and violence are allowed to fester.


I already linked to these in Fran's European Breakfast, but I thought I'd expand them with quotations.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Nov 7th, 2005 at 09:56:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Extended in a diary on dKos:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/11/7/9123/76404

As always, I kindly request your recommendations as a way to promote eurotrib.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Nov 7th, 2005 at 10:04:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It would be interesting to hear how, before these riots began, France considered it acceptable to have 20,000 cars burned each year. This sort of random violence seems completely unacceptable...
by asdf on Mon Nov 7th, 2005 at 08:38:28 AM EST
And the UK have 80,000. Is that acceptable? Does it make headlines?

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Nov 7th, 2005 at 08:50:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Where did you get the 80,000 statistic?

Money is a sign of Poverty - Culture Saying
by RogueTrooper on Mon Nov 7th, 2005 at 09:21:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
from here:

http://www.nfpa.org/PDF/osvehicle.pdf?src=nfpa (pdf)

via this comment on dKos which provided the following quote:


79% of U.K. car fires were "malicious."
Highway vehicle fires have a different profile in the United Kingdom. In 2001, 102,100 road vehicles resulted in 68 fatalities and 689 injuries. The 102,100 vehicle fire total was the highest seen in the decade. Eighty-eight percent of these vehicles were cars. Seventynine percent (70,100) of the car fires were "malicious."

The number of malicious car fires has been climbing since 1998, increasing 32% from 1998 to 1999, 12% from 1999 to 2000, and 11% from 2000 to 2001. Non-malicious car fires fell 5% from 2000 to 2001. As in the U.S., malicious car fires were more common at night or the early hours of the morning, while other car fires were more spread out and peaked in the late afternoon and early evening.



In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Nov 7th, 2005 at 10:07:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
However, I don't think Blighty's burnt out motors are littering her streets with quite the panache they are adorning les rue Francais

Money is a sign of Poverty - Culture Saying
by RogueTrooper on Mon Nov 7th, 2005 at 11:16:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This is the headline in the New York Times. I find this far more worrisome than the car burning. This seems like it's, well, like it's in America.

Do not feel safe. The poet remembers.
Czeslaw Milosz
by Chris Kulczycki on Mon Nov 7th, 2005 at 08:44:54 AM EST
I wanted to add this quote from the NYT. Destruction of property is one thing, but this is starting to sound like urban warfare. Or are these isolated cases? I wonder if Jerome or anyone else in France would like to comment.


Most people said they sensed that the escalation of the past few days had changed the rules of the game: besides the number of attacks, the level of destruction has grown sharply, with substantial businesses and public buildings going down in flames. Besides the gunfire on Sunday, residents of some high-rise apartment blocks have been throwing steel boccie balls and improvised explosives at national riot police officers patrolling below.

In the Parisian suburb of Aubervilliers early Sunday, with smoke hanging in the air and a helicopter humming overhead, a helmeted police officer in a flak jacket carried a soft drink bottle gingerly away from where it had landed near him and his colleagues moments before. The bottle, half-filled with a clear liquid and nails, had failed to explode.



Do not feel safe. The poet remembers.
Czeslaw Milosz
by Chris Kulczycki on Mon Nov 7th, 2005 at 09:00:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The first cars are now burning in Berlin, Bremen and Brussels. Will the Dutch chip in, too? I guess that the 'centri sociali' in Italy will not stand aside for much longer now. The autonomi will see it as a matter of revolutionary pride to join the car torching campaign. Via de' Volsci in San Lorenzo  makes for a nice scenographic set.

"The USA appears destined by fate to plague America with misery in the name of liberty." Simon Bolivar, Caracas, 1819
by Ritter on Mon Nov 7th, 2005 at 09:08:15 AM EST
Ritter, you seem to see a strongly political motives, à la mai '68, behind the current French riots.  I guess, ultimately, everything is political but these acts of urban violence seem nihilistic expressions of anger rather than the pursuit of an understandable political agenda.  In other words, being pissed at Sarko and all the rest does not a platform make.

It's very difficult to tell if these events will become more structured and if so, how and by whom.  Even if I thought it desirable (and I don't), I don't feel that the French hard left is in much of a position to take charge.

So who's left?  The Islamists?  I may be wrong but they just don't seem to have or even want that kind of influence.  Their game is more low key and long term.  Sure they may view these events as an opportunity to recruit and convince but you certainly won't be seeing a fire breathing Imam leading any charges.

Organized crime might throw a little muscle into this.  The more people hate the police, the more ineffective and baffled the police seems, the more street toughs seem to be (and are) in charge.  However, OC in France is pretty local and is nothing like LCN is Sicily, so any organizing on their part would be small scale with specific local objectives.

To sum it up, I think the violence, will gradually die down, or at least leave the spotlight.  It may get worse before since it's become a form of perverse competition with the score sheets being read every morning throughout the press.

How we deal with the aftermath of violence and the multi-faceted problems of the banlieue is the key political issue for which I have no quick and ready answers.

Cheers

by Guillaume on Mon Nov 7th, 2005 at 10:24:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think there is a case to be made that this crisis will be personalized around Sarkozy. Even the English language press (well, only The Independent as far as I know) acknowledges this. Chirac and de Villepin probably cannot afford the political cost of forcing Sarkozy to resign, so they will crack down. If they don't do it properly they might inflame the situation more.

It's going to be a mess and I can only see Sarkozy and Le Pen as winners. After all, the only winner of May'68 was De Gaulle when all was said an done.

May 1968

On 29 May several hundred thousand protesters led by the CGT marched through Paris, chanting, "Adieu, de Gaulle!"

While the government appeared to be close to collapse, de Gaulle chose not to say adieu. Instead, after ensuring that he had sufficient loyal military units mobilized to back him if push came to shove, he went on the radio the following day (the national television service was on strike) to announce the dissolution of the National Assembly, with elections to follow on 23 June. He ordered workers to return to work, threatening to institute a state of emergency if they did not.

The Events of June

From that point the revolutionary feeling of the students and workers faded away. Workers gradually returned to work or were ousted from their plants by the police. The national student union called off street demonstrations. The government banned a number of left organizations. The police retook the Sorbonne on 16 June. De Gaulle triumphed in the elections held in June and the crisis had ended.



A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Nov 7th, 2005 at 10:45:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Speak of the devil...

Notice how quiet Le Pen is being?  You know he's enjoying every minute of this and waiting to cash in.  For the next presidential elections, expect something like "you tried Le Pen "light" and got 11(15, 20... ?) days of intifada, it's time to vote for the real thing".

The socialists need to get their act together yesterday.  Get a game plan, and more importantly get a good candidate.  Leave Jospin in the mothballs where he belongs, he had his chance and got whipped...twice, didn't make to the second round last time.  He can't convince the, admittedly unruly, French left to vote for him, end of story (he probably couldn't convince a drunk to have another whisky, that's the kind of charisma we're talking about).  Get someone quickly (Royal? Strauss-Kahn? Hollande?...), back them fully and give them good exposure.
Can it happen?  Don't hold your breath.

by Guillaume on Mon Nov 7th, 2005 at 11:34:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Here is my take on the general political situation:

The US war preparations against Irak led to the foundation of a European public consciousness. We witnessed for the first time that tens of millions of European citizens engaged in the active, spontaneous participation at demonstrations in all EU Member States. And something extraordinary happened: The participants at the huge demonstrations were from a variety of national, political and religious backgrounds. At the Brussels demo I saw folks from Holland, France, Germany, Luxemburg, the UK, Spain, Italy etc.pp. It was truly pan European. Poetically speaking it was that EU 'Europe' had found its popular core belief - its 'soul'.

This could have been the founding moment of the 'Europe of citizens', of its founding myth, of the 'European narrative'.

If the European socialdemocrats, socialist and labour parties had picked up that 'moment' it would have guaranteed a huge popular support and propelled us thru' the European constitution referenda. We know that they failed to do so, we didn't succeed to link the peoples will for peace with a political project to re-vive the European economy on a anti neo-liberal platform.

So we lost the battle for the constitution and remained empty handed with regards to a European alternative to the free market hooligans on the right.

The results of this failure can be seen now in France (and soon in Benelux, The Netherlands, Germany and Italy).

So yes, I see the kids movement as a highly political reaction to our European party leaders vanity and intellectual laziness to define a viable socialdemocratic, socialist and labour perspective which englobes the elements of peace policies and social progress in credible and compelling terms.

The social unrest will spread throughout Europe and crowd control and police repression ain't gonna be the answer to deal with it.

ET should begin to think about developing a European 'narrative'. We will need one to steer the social upheavel and to give it some meaningfull direction. Our current leaders are speechless (if not worse).

"The USA appears destined by fate to plague America with misery in the name of liberty." Simon Bolivar, Caracas, 1819

by Ritter on Mon Nov 7th, 2005 at 11:44:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sometimes (in connection with Globalization but also now with the pan-European movement you herald) I feel like the bourgeois and minor nobles who supported the French revolution only to be swept away by it. I take advantage of the unjust system even as I decry it.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Nov 7th, 2005 at 11:52:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The state of the SPE is truly deplorable, they are dead in the water. The communists a la Bertinotti and Gysi? Well, they are vanity folks - good for talk shows and 'per fare salotto'. They essentially represent the European pensioners. The Greens? They are on their march back towards the nice (not yet gated) neighborhoods mansions of our lawyer and dentist friends.

It is depressing.

I guess we better concentrate on the LocustWatch project and try to broaden it to make it eventually become a European 'narrative". It will be an absolute first. A 'riot' so to speak.

"The USA appears destined by fate to plague America with misery in the name of liberty." Simon Bolivar, Caracas, 1819

by Ritter on Mon Nov 7th, 2005 at 12:18:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The state of the SPE is truly deplorable, they are dead in the water.
Hmm. I have to agree with you there unfortunately. What do you think of Borrell? He's (or used to be) quite popular among a certain class of pseudo-intelectual quasi-jacobin socialist sympathisers in Spain. By the way, you never commented on this rant of mine.


A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Nov 7th, 2005 at 12:40:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I will read it later tonight.

For now only this:

When I worked for the EP party group I was warned by friends not to get too close to the SPE. I followed their advice and they were right. The closest I ever got to the secretary general was in Costa Rica in a djungle hotel. I was playing chess with a LA share broker who told me that he had been playing chess with another fellow from Brussels until recently and who had also worked for the socialists. He then described this person to me. I knew him. He was on the run with some million $ of Craxi's illegal money from the Agusta helicopter affair, which had led to the killing of a Belgian political big shot. He later went back to Milan and did some time in Uccerdone prison.

"The USA appears destined by fate to plague America with misery in the name of liberty." Simon Bolivar, Caracas, 1819

by Ritter on Mon Nov 7th, 2005 at 01:19:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Jerome, where at the Socialists in all this?  

From across the pond, it appears that the Socialists are acting like the Democrats -- without solid positions, not being an effective opposition.  Am I wrong?  Am I not hearing what they are saying?

What is your perspective on this?  Thanks.

by numediaman on Mon Nov 7th, 2005 at 09:31:00 AM EST
Does anyone here actually have any direct experience of that whole thing?

Well, here is my anecdotal data. Though we own our home we're far from rich, live very modestly and everyone in our village knows this.

We've used local artisans/workers every time we needed things done, and their young trainees are usually named Mohamed, Salah, etc. We talk to them, we give them comic books, we joke, we get along great.

Mohamed is a case in point, a good kid, wants to work, a muslim like I'm clarinet player, but he can't afford a car (used cars are more expensive to own AND operate (legally) in France), he can't get a job easily if he doesn't have a car, he can barely afford his rent and certainly can't imagine buying a house, so there's no way out for him really, unless he wins the loto.

So he and his buddies go drinking on Saturday Night, throw insults at the local gypsy gang, whatever. Compared to American gang behavior it's actually fairly mild. A knife or a bottle fight seems to be the worst you can expect. Gun murders are rare.

The US is a mobile society, legally or otherwise (sports, music, educattion) someone there could make headways, but here, honestly, I'm not quite sure what options, other than torching cars, Mohamed has.

Mohamed both loves America and hates the regime; he loves us because we come from Ca-li-fooor-nia, la-la-land, paradise. Leaving money issues asides, I told him he better like lemon chicken if plans to visit. (Had to explain about Gitmo.) Even a blind profiler would jump on poor Mohamed as soon as he set foot on the tarmac. He looks like Michelle Malkin's dream terrorist.

In our village, there's a couple of old farts who still hate the Spaniards who came here to escape Franco in the 30s, so mindsets aren't going to evolve very quickly, I gather.

Katrina has sort of exposed the Potemkin Village nature of America's affirmative action but at least there is a village, even if it's cardboard thin. In France, there's no "gens bronzés" on TV, in the Parliament, behind the counter at the bank, at the Mairie, anyway not like in America. It's like the 60ies here. It really is.

No matter how unrealistic it is, you do need to dangle some hope. Mohamed has none, and he is a good, reflective, serious kid. So it's a bummer. Torching cars doesn't look so bad from where he stands. At least I think so. I think if he lived in the Paris suburbs, he might be one of the kids on TV. I don't know.

He cares about his family, his friends, his girl-friend... He'd like to do better, but the French tax and credit system makes it virtually impossible for someone like him to run a business, except an illicit one "au black" as they say here.

I've seen lots of posts on Kos, Gilliard's, Atrios', everywhere (and forget the Hitler Youth as redstate.org) and, excuse my French, but no one seems to have any real understanding (and to understand is to gain compassion and forgive a little) of the life those kids have.  I saw a good quote attributed to Mitterand, but that's it.

I look at these riots, as extreme as they seem, and I think there may be hope that it will change things for the better.

I look at the African-Americans left to rot in a dying city, then carted in buses and herded together in a stadium, taking it all passively, like that's all they expect, and that's all they'll get, and I don't see any promise for change.

So I don't know, maybe the riots are better.

by Lupin on Mon Nov 7th, 2005 at 11:41:29 AM EST
and just had to comment.
Katrina has sort of exposed the Potemkin Village nature of America's affirmative action
do people not walk around their own cities?  Affirmative action has been a good program.  Much progress has been made.  But do you think there is not poverty in minority communities--or in white communities for that matter.  Go to some of the smaller southern cities.

I look at the African-Americans left to rot in a dying city, then carted in buses and herded together in a stadium, taking it all passively, like that's all they expect, and that's all they'll get, and I don't see any promise for change.
 Carted into buses?  that was the lucky ones.  the mayor, yes mayor as using buses was clearly in his charter, didn't even arrange that--so don't blame that one on FEMA.  Perhaps you noticed the mayor is black, as are many of the city officials--so I don't think they targeted the poor blacks.  All levels of government underperformed, in what admittedly was a "perfect storm" kind of environment.  but you were expecting the government never to fail?  But it will get fixed now--congressional report coming, lots of focus on improving.

I just find the comment strange, but I see it over and over again.  I'm not defending anything--just surprised that people don't already know this,,,,katrina is this remarkable revelation to them.

by wchurchill on Mon Nov 7th, 2005 at 02:20:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I imagine that if someone tried to herd black New Yorkers into Madison Square garden they would find out in short order why New Orleans was the "big easy" and New York is not.  But I suspect these riots are a chance for France to complete 1968. Despite all the sneering, current French prosperity is a direct product of the radical reform of education after 1968 and the rapid creation of a new class of technocrats who could exploit France's natural and looted advantages instead of wallowing in colonial and reactionary nostalgia. The question now is whether these technocrats have enough flexibility, humanity, and/or fear to now insist on human solutions and the revival of French industry - solutions that will require destruction of some cherished institutions like the agricultural subsidy and the dictatorship of degrees. The Finish educational reform is available as a model to start internal reform and a tossing the dregs of empire for a new commonwealth is a good starting mission. But the alternative is a grim police state and I am not very confident about probabilities.
by citizen k (sansracine yahoo.fr) on Mon Nov 7th, 2005 at 10:19:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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