Toxteth's long road to recovery

Liverpool's Toxteth area still sufferers from many of the problems which helped spark rioting 20 years ago, writes BBC News Online's Finlo Rohrer.

More than a week of rioting in 1981 left Toxteth, an already deprived Liverpool neighbourhood, looking like a war zone.

The severity of the disturbances, in which as many as 140 buildings were destroyed, sent shock waves across the country, even as far as Westminster.

The aftermath of the riot saw the home secretary, William Whitelaw, tour the smoking ruins before Margaret Thatcher herself chose to visit.

Liberté, égalité et fraternité - but only for some

The violence appears to be the loudest wake-up call for France's ruling class, within which Mr Chirac has long thrived, and which has long lectured others on the success of its social model. Irritation in the French press about the news coverage the riots have received abroad also reflects how humbling they have been been for the chattering classes.

While much of the violence is happening only a few miles from the Elysée presidential palace, Mr Chirac and his ministers have until now preferred to ignore the growing social unrest rather than accept that France's integration model has failed.

This head-in-the-sand attitude is summed up by the president's refusal to allow Insee, the state statistics arm, to ask people about their ethnic origins in surveys and censuses, thus preventing anyone knowing how segregated French society has become.

Instead, Mr Chirac clings to the idea that all French citizens are equal under the republic's revolutionary ideal: Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité. In practice, this means immigrants are expected to adapt to France rather than the other way round.

This policy worked reasonably well when Italians, Armenians, east European Jews, Spaniards and Portuguese arrived during various periods of the 19th and 20th centuries and assimilated easily.

But the model has broken down for more recent waves of immigrants from former French colonies in north and sub-Saharan Africa. Many found themselves excluded from mainstream society, living in outer-city ghettoes. Their children, most of whom were born in France, find themselves in ghettoised schools and with little chance of gainful employment.

Previous immigrants, too, could easily adapt to France's insistence on a strict division between church and state. But Muslim immigrants in particular, who make up 10 per cent of France's population, have had a more difficult time adapting to a secular state - they felt singled out two years ago when the government banned the wearing of headscarves in schools.

First, to be pedant, it's liberté, égalité, fraternité, no "et" inserted.

Irritation in the French press about the news coverage the riots have received abroad also reflects how humbling they have been been for the chattering classes.

Yeah right, irritation is because the elites have been humbled (if only!) and not because the coverage has been sensationalist and driven by schadenfreude or French-bashing (and I am not even talking about the rightwing "Intifada" commentary). A surprising number of comments on dKos to my "aunt" diary basically accused me of rationalisation, denial or worse, just for giving a different point of view to the main viewpoint currently developed.

the president's refusal to allow Insee, the state statistics arm, to ask people about their ethnic origins in surveys and censuses

Amazing ignorance by that journalist. It's the law! Criticise the law, but not the authorities for respecting the law! Unbelievable.

all French citizens are equal under the republic's revolutionary ideal: Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité. In practice, this means immigrants are expected to adapt to France rather than the other way round.

WTF? France is supposed to adapt to immigrants? What's that supposed to mean, exactly? The issue is that France is not treating French kids as French kids but as somewhat inconvenient visitors. They Don't want France to change, but to accept them.

This policy worked reasonably well when Italians, Armenians, east European Jews, Spaniards and Portuguese arrived during various periods of the 19th and 20th centuries and assimilated easily.

But the model has broken down for more recent waves of immigrants from former French colonies in north and sub-Saharan Africa

Again, what unbelievable ignorance. Assimilated easily? Has this journalist not heard of the affaire Dreyfus? The fascist movements in the 30s? The hate against each of these successive waves of immigrants?

Previous immigrants, too, could easily adapt to France's insistence on a strict division between church and state.

Italian and Polish catholics? Really? That was not easy then.

I'll stand by my point. It's too early to tell if France will successfully integrate North Africans or not, but I am not at all pessimistic that we're on our way and we will. We only see the non-integrated minority, not the invisible integrated majority.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

From across the pond, it appears that the Socialists are acting like the Democrats -- without solid positions, not being an effective opposition.  Am I wrong?  Am I not hearing what they are saying?

What is your perspective on this?  Thanks.

Well, here is my anecdotal data. Though we own our home we're far from rich, live very modestly and everyone in our village knows this.

We've used local artisans/workers every time we needed things done, and their young trainees are usually named Mohamed, Salah, etc. We talk to them, we give them comic books, we joke, we get along great.

Mohamed is a case in point, a good kid, wants to work, a muslim like I'm clarinet player, but he can't afford a car (used cars are more expensive to own AND operate (legally) in France), he can't get a job easily if he doesn't have a car, he can barely afford his rent and certainly can't imagine buying a house, so there's no way out for him really, unless he wins the loto.

So he and his buddies go drinking on Saturday Night, throw insults at the local gypsy gang, whatever. Compared to American gang behavior it's actually fairly mild. A knife or a bottle fight seems to be the worst you can expect. Gun murders are rare.

The US is a mobile society, legally or otherwise (sports, music, educattion) someone there could make headways, but here, honestly, I'm not quite sure what options, other than torching cars, Mohamed has.

Mohamed both loves America and hates the regime; he loves us because we come from Ca-li-fooor-nia, la-la-land, paradise. Leaving money issues asides, I told him he better like lemon chicken if plans to visit. (Had to explain about Gitmo.) Even a blind profiler would jump on poor Mohamed as soon as he set foot on the tarmac. He looks like Michelle Malkin's dream terrorist.

In our village, there's a couple of old farts who still hate the Spaniards who came here to escape Franco in the 30s, so mindsets aren't going to evolve very quickly, I gather.

Katrina has sort of exposed the Potemkin Village nature of America's affirmative action but at least there is a village, even if it's cardboard thin. In France, there's no "gens bronzés" on TV, in the Parliament, behind the counter at the bank, at the Mairie, anyway not like in America. It's like the 60ies here. It really is.

No matter how unrealistic it is, you do need to dangle some hope. Mohamed has none, and he is a good, reflective, serious kid. So it's a bummer. Torching cars doesn't look so bad from where he stands. At least I think so. I think if he lived in the Paris suburbs, he might be one of the kids on TV. I don't know.

He cares about his family, his friends, his girl-friend... He'd like to do better, but the French tax and credit system makes it virtually impossible for someone like him to run a business, except an illicit one "au black" as they say here.

I've seen lots of posts on Kos, Gilliard's, Atrios', everywhere (and forget the Hitler Youth as redstate.org) and, excuse my French, but no one seems to have any real understanding (and to understand is to gain compassion and forgive a little) of the life those kids have.  I saw a good quote attributed to Mitterand, but that's it.

I look at these riots, as extreme as they seem, and I think there may be hope that it will change things for the better.

I look at the African-Americans left to rot in a dying city, then carted in buses and herded together in a stadium, taking it all passively, like that's all they expect, and that's all they'll get, and I don't see any promise for change.

So I don't know, maybe the riots are better.