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Making Driving Less Safe

by Nomad Mon Dec 12th, 2005 at 10:26:49 PM EST

The first person to be killed in a car accident was Bridget Driscoll, 1896, in London. Reportedly, when crossing the Crystal Palace she was hit by an automobile driving a little faster than 6 km/hour. The coroner expressed the hope that, "such a thing would never happen again". Of course, one could wonder a little how factual this all is, or whether Bridget Driscoll just happened to be the first to draw attention by her tragic demise. Whatever it may be, Mrs. Driscoll is the first on the list of statistics that has grown lamentably long.

Accidents like the one cited above fed the idea, held during the early twentieth century, that it is dangerous to mix cars with pedestrians and cyclists unchecked. For the effectiveness of traffic and the safety of its occupants, it was believed far better to separate cars from the other traffic fluxes: the segregation of traffic. To this day, we experience the results of this philosophy.

Yet now we live in two worlds. Most of the day, we live in the World of Humans where we engage with each other and behave according to our socially formed guidelines. Yet when we seat ourselves behind the wheel of our cherished gas-guzzler, we enter a different world: the World of Cars, which has created its own guidelines, do's and don'ts. It wouldn't be all that bad, weren't it that the World of Humans and the World of Cars often need to share the same space. Public space. Since there is a limit to the degree cars can be segregated from the World of Humans, full segregation of worlds is never attained.  And where both worlds overlap, we find deadly car accidents with the highest frequency.

This is not my own philosophy. It's the one of Hans Monderman, or at least it is how I understood his. Hans Monderman is a Dutch traffic engineer, who recently received national and international attention for his work to create more safe and more efficient roads. His approach is nothing short of counter-intuitive: create safer roads by making roads look more dangerous.

There's a libertarian, perhaps even anarchistic, streak to his approach - although Monderman would probably refuse to label it as such. To him, the World of Cars suffers from a variety of ills. First of all, the World of Cars sends out the wrong signals and ultimately it de-humanises traffic behaviour. Secluded within a car, you don't see people. You see other cars. Cars are dead things, and the guidelines we've been grown up with do not apply to them. Ponder this: How often have you had a near-accident or witnessed anti-social behaviour on the road where you did not see the driver? Or felt like kicking the car that had almost harmed you (or the extension of yourself, your car)? Monderman's conclusion: behaviour in traffic is different than social behaviour.

On another tack, the guidelines for the World of Cars are a construct which did not grow bottom-up within a social context. It was superimposed, top-down, by a government institution and always done so within a legal framework. Roads were designed accordingly. An engineer of the government automatically puts extra road signs and measurements in place to reduce the hypothetical "What if...?" situations, to avoid civil responsibility. The paternal furnishing of the roads results in removing a big chunk of the personal responsibility of the driver.

Monderman argues that public space should not be cut up. In fact, traffic should be just one function of many of common space, not a separate one. But how to achieve this? His answer: by again merging the segregated traffic fluxes. By removing road signs that "enforce" responsibility on the driver. Or, in short: by returning the responsibility of the social guidelines back to the individual driver.

Accidents are inherently linked to driving speed. There is a 1 : 1 relation between the  increase of driving speed and the frequency of car-accidents. In turn, the driving speed of a car is related to the level of safety which the driver experiences. This is backed up by a range of statistics: the safer the car gets, the faster it gets driven. In fact, even the addition of the safety belt in cars results in a slight increase of speed. This was observed in countries in Africa before and after the introduction of the safety belt. The rate of accidents increased comparably. This does not apply just for cars: I can remember that Nike Air shoes equipped with extra ankle support resulted in more, not less, sprains. Why? Because the wearers believed it would protect them better, got a sloppier concentration and took higher risks, resulting in more accidents.

But Monderman does not believe in enforced speed reduction. It does not affect the attitude of the driver. Instead, he wants the driver to feel less secure, which results in a decrease of speed and a larger interaction of the driver with his surrounding.

From a very readable piece about Monderman and his ideas:

Suddenly, there it is: the Intersection. It's the confluence of two busy two-lane roads that handle 20,000 cars a day, plus thousands of bicyclists and pedestrians. Several years ago, Monderman ripped out all the traditional instruments used by traffic engineers to influence driver behavior - traffic lights, road markings, and some pedestrian crossings - and in their place created a roundabout, or traffic circle. The circle is remarkable for what it doesn't contain: signs or signals telling drivers how fast to go, who has the right-of-way, or how to behave. There are no lane markers or curbs separating street and sidewalk, so it's unclear exactly where the car zone ends and the pedestrian zone begins. To an approaching driver, the intersection is utterly ambiguous - and that's the point.

These roundabouts are nothing new; Monderman confesses he took the example from another city: Paris. Most people who have driven through Paris have developed something of a trauma for the traffic (I sure have!), but the truth is that there are relatively few deadly accidents on the roundabouts while they also more efficiently take care of the traffic than traffic lights would. The general flux of cars is far higher.

Monderman also favours the "first comes, first leaves" system on four-way crossings, common in the United States, for a same reason: it engages interaction between drivers. He often stresses that his solutions are not the end-all of everything and argues that for every situation a new approach might be the best solution. But the goal always should be: better interaction between road occupants and an abandonment of segregation.

The approach of Monderman, and those who think like him, would not have gained so much traction internationally, if it wasn't so successful. Monderman is now working in a EU group with similar minds, and the group has been implementing several projects in more and more countries. Where his solutions are introduced in the Netherlands the death toll in car accidents has decreased staggeringly. Mind: the total amount of accidents has risen, yet those are the bumps and scratches type of accidents resulting in relatively low-cost damage. For most Parisian habitants, these kind of accidents must sound familiar too; they are the kind which Paris is notorious for.

I still have my own questions about the methods described above. For instance, I haven't seen a good take on how Monderman envisions combining trucks/lorries with biking children, who are less aware of surrounding traffic. Nevertheless, his ideas read like a refreshing alternative to something that is so frustrating on a daily basis. That, and the fact that the yearly death toll in traffic has been a sting and curse in my consciousness from early on.


Display:
Another engaging interview with Monderman is found here.

This being my first diary, as in ever, I hope on a swift execution. Sharp swords and a well-aimed stroke, please. The casket stands ready.

by Nomad (Bjinse) on Mon Dec 12th, 2005 at 10:28:04 PM EST
This is a really good diary, Nomad -- first or not! -- and a subject I follow with interest.  I read a mention of this quite awhile ago and was recently wondering how it was going so I'm appreciative of the links (I admit I haven't read them yet and probably won't until tomorrow since it's getting late here).

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes
by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 01:13:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The sword and your neck must have turned into bosons :-)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 05:59:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
(Sorry for the in-joke apparently only another ex-physicist understood...)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Dec 14th, 2005 at 05:08:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
More articles on Monderman and his Shared Space philosophy are to be found on www.shared-space.org.
by Sunshine on Tue Dec 20th, 2005 at 06:39:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
there are plans to use a similar scheme for Exhibition Road in Kensington, London. That'sthe road that contains the Natural History Museum, Science Museum and Victoria and Albert Museum as well as part of the Univeristy of London and leads to the Royal Albert Hall. Here are links to the Kensington and Chelsea (the local council) and the traffic mangement company web sites.

I believe one of the techniques used in green suburbs (in either the Netherlands or Norway???) is to have flocks of sheep free. These roam over the road to slow the traffic down and have the handy extra use of keeping the grass short.

by Londonbear on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 12:51:31 AM EST
The trouble with a radio interview is that you forget some of the details you hear. In the interview, the project you described was mentioned.

I haven't been around Kensington High for a while, but apparently this incredibly busy road was first changed and its refurbishing is now believed a success. The central philosophy behind the refurbishing is the one I wrote about: reunite traffic zones, create a larger awareness and interaction between road occupants. I haven't seen any statistics myself, but it was reported that deadly (car) accidents have significantly reduced the past 2 years. The Kensington High project was done coordinated together with the EU group mentioned above.  Because of this success, the scope is now widened.

As for sheep, I know nothing about it for the Netherlands! What a great idea, though. I always figured that we should return to driving and living in urban neighbourhoods comparable to life in villages.

by Nomad (Bjinse) on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 07:50:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If I am not mistaken, in Spain there is this old path called Cañada Real which, back in the 1400's, gave travelling herds of sheep right of way by Royal licence. The story goes that the licence was never revoked, so if shepherds wanted they could still use it, which would be especially useful for political protests and marches.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 05:02:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So the Royal Paddock it is.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Dec 14th, 2005 at 07:16:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
...there is a term  "the long paddock"  (a paddock is a field) which is used to refer to roads.  Many country roads have a hundred feet (thirty metres)or so of space either side of them and this is public grazing ground.  The purpose is to ensure that herds are well fed as they are moved or in times of drought.  It is not uncommon to encounter a large flock of sheep or cattle being driven to market.  And it is a lot more humane than cattle trucks (who has to wash those things!).

Truckle The Uncivil - Nullus Anxietas Sanguinae
by Truckle on Wed Dec 14th, 2005 at 07:13:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"the yearly death toll in traffic has been a sting and curse in my consciousness from early on."

The same for me.  When I was a teen, I was a passenger in a 80mph head-on collision and sustained multiple traumas.  It's long been my opinion that we (especially here in the US) really need to re-think some of our thinking about cars.  

I often point out the hypocrisy involved in all the yakking about safety with regards weapons and drugs, or health or insurance legislation, when we absolutely glorify speeding around in hunks of metal that kill and maim thousands a year.  And don't even get me started on commercials performed by stunt drivers zooming around!  Does Europe have much of that?

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes

by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 01:25:21 AM EST
A common feature of French roads in my area when I was growing up were what we called 'suicide lanes'. This was a middle two-way passing lane, often on winding roads in mountainous areas. Even where there were long straightaways you often had games of chicken playing out. Especially considering the large amount of truck traffic which would inevitably form long moving traffic jams on the dark roads back from a day's skiing.

As for driving in America - how would I know - I live in NYC and don't even have a license. The cabbies are occasionally insane - and I mean clinically. I once had one who barked and howlded at people, as in sticking out his head and doing his best imitation of a dog at cars and passers by. Not sure if he actually talked - he used his own special woof-woofing in communicating with us.  That was an interesting ride.

by MarekNYC on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 03:18:18 AM EST
Recently I found some statistics on deadly road accidents in some of the bigger EU countries. Although this was related to the current decrease of accidents in France, believed to be the result of the harsher police control, it didn't specify where the accidents occur.

Italy, Spain and Greece have a same high rate, in accidents per so many people, compared to France. Whether there's a cultural effect, I don't know, but I'd like to crunch the numbers and look up what kind of road the accidents happen. I'm well aware of the suicide lanes in mountainous terrains, present in Italy, France, Spain, Greece etc.; that's what you get when visiting mountainous areas is part of your study. The amount of near-hits between traffic we saw is countless; the number of our own near-hits experiences is thankfully a lot smaller, but too large for me in any case.
 

by Nomad (Bjinse) on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 08:09:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Recently I found some statistics on deadly road accidents ... Italy, Spain and Greece have a same high rate, in accidents per so many people, compared to France.

Heh, you spared me lots of Googling! This would have been my counter-argument - that even tough Monderman's applications of his philosophy work, his general theory must be wrong, considering the South European experience.

How this could be?

I recall one issue in Germany: the effect of airbags. As Monderman would have predicted, indeed cars with airbags had an increased frequency of dangerous driving and deadly accidents. However, as airbags spread, they must have contributed to the now ever more significant general decrease of traffic deaths in Germany. To put it in other words for a fellow scientifically-educated ( :-) ), the penetration of road safety measures has a non-linear effect.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 04:30:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
DoDo, you always make me inject nuance into my story. It's both incredibly helpful and extremely irritating to be reminded that I didn´t do it before you showed up.

I mentioned before in the comments that the number of car accidents probably needs crunching. The total amount is not the amount of accidents by car/pedestrian or car/bicycle collisions. There will always be a ~10/15 percentage of drivers who behave irresponsible behind the wheel. These people who constantly drive reckless and irresponsible towards others and get killed are also in those numbers. The main concern of this diary are the accidents of the first kind, namely car/pedestrian accidents. For all I care, the latter kind can get a Darwin Award or so if they manage to wrap themselves around a tree without hurting others. Harsh perhaps, but I have very little respect for idiots.

In short: Airbags deliver safety to the driver, but not to other road occupants. I take your argument and turn it around: airbags may protect more people but encourages reckless driving. So the Nike Air analogue does not always apply; I never said it should. The point was that the feeling of safety in a car encourages driving faster.

This diary is concerned especially with the accidents between cars and other traffic users. It is this range of accidents that has been the hardest to reduce - and is not aided by air bags for drivers. There will always be accidents, comparable to accidents in the kitchen. But what method will provide the best hazard reduction in urban areas: strict segregation and increased high-tech of safe cars coupled to harsh crack-down when breaking the rules or the reverse: total traffic intergration and injecting social behaviour?

In an aside, I´m all for high-tech and smart cars who brake automatically when they sense an approaching object; it reduces the other accident nightmare of traffic, namely head-tail collisions on motorways. Motorways are a totally different beast, I think, worthy of a separate diary.

by Nomad (Bjinse) on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 08:31:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
DoDo, you always make me inject nuance into my story. It's both incredibly helpful and extremely irritating to be reminded that I didn´t do it before you showed up.

Well, this more seems the case of me missing already implanted nuance :-)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Dec 14th, 2005 at 04:34:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Now I do some nuance, too :-)

I take your argument and turn it around: airbags may protect more people but encourages reckless driving.

I didn't wrote just thought it, but I suspect the more reckless driving part is largely constrained to an already reckless speeder/aggressive driver sub-population, who also happen to be the very same sub-population that first bought cars with airbags, when they were an expensive part of high-end cars. So the effect would be strongest at the beginning.

Also, while I (now :-)) understand that your diary is about car/non-car accidents, I note that reckless drivers kill drivers of other cars, as well as passengers of the others' and their own cars (see my post on that Turkish immigrant in Germany) - and airbags reduce fatality in these cases too (possibly more than the fatality of accident-causers).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Dec 14th, 2005 at 05:03:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Again with the nuance! Good points.

but I suspect the more reckless driving part is largely constrained to an already reckless speeder/aggressive driver sub-population, who also happen to be the very same sub-population that first bought cars with airbags, when they were an expensive part of high-end cars. So the effect would be strongest at the beginning

Very hard to prove by numbers or statistics, that, but a view which I share.

by Nomad (Bjinse) on Wed Dec 14th, 2005 at 08:37:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A major, non cultural effect in amount of road deaths is population density. You'll get many more deaths per driver if most of those are to be found in the countryside rather than towns.

Italy, Spain, France have relatively large populations in the countryside...

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Wed Dec 14th, 2005 at 09:48:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Most traffic deaths in Spain happen during holidays, in short displacements near the victim's vacation spot, when the guard is low. This is consistent with the quoted figure of only 7% of traffic deaths being on highways.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Dec 14th, 2005 at 09:51:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Good first comment, by the way.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Dec 14th, 2005 at 09:53:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Nice diary, reminding us of a several decade old fight on traffic separation!
The first French round-about was tested in Quimper (Brittany) on the road coming from Bénodet ( a sea side resort with Casino), as it was a spot where many got killed under heavy alcohol influence... Now they just land on the central spot !
Since, all French cities have been plagued by these round-abouts, felt like an "universal" answer to city limits problems... Giving a feeling of entering an industrial zone, instead of managing the urban frontier !

s a matter of fact, most of those smaller ones are called the "two million (francs) roundabouts"... As they allow for some money scraping for the city hall !

On Monderman's basic belief, I share it with many others... The best way to ease traffic in a big city, is not to have bigger lanes, but on the contrary to reduce them... After a while, many choose public transportation rather then using their personal car !

It's about the same about car park ... I've lived twenty years in the "Marais" (old district of Paris) and at the beginning, still owned a car. But because in this fashionable and very old district, you don't find underground parking lots, neither public nor private, you often turn for hours before finding a slot... After one year of this chore, myself, as many of my neighbors got rid of our cars...

The Parisian sidewalks where designed in the beginning of the 19th century, not so because of traffic, but mostly to allow to see the new design of shops, the window display !

Today, because of cars and the idea of traffic separation, the sidewalks are bristled with pins and fences, and thousands of other "vertical" street props (mobilier urbain), allowing for pedestrian traffic jams on narrow sidewalks!
And to cross a street, bordered with those, plus the continuous parked cars (two walls of steel and glass) is a feat !

Worse... Recently, we have on some boulevard the bus lane, just in the middle (two ways) that allows taxis and bicycles... And even when crossing on the zebra lines, it's really counter intuitive for the pedestrian, while the drivers think they are in their  very own lane and feel secure enough !

Many believe today, that at least in historical centers, a unique street, mixing all traffics would be better for most...

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman

by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 04:10:08 AM EST
The first French round-about was tested in Quimper (Brittany) on the road coming from Bénodet

I was there!!!

...assuming we mean the same - do you mean the one where the road from Bénodet meets the main circular road (D34)?

Image hosted by PicsPlace.to

Than little green on the shore in the middle is the park of the castle, which is a camping place, that's where I stayed one beautiful evening and morning.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 04:49:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, exactly :-)
Incredible... This is a really small world!
The Odet river to Bénodet (Penn Odet = head of the river) is famed for it's beauty and it's castles... Eric Tabarly lived there !

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman
by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Wed Dec 14th, 2005 at 02:26:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Our neighbors in Budapest once went on holiday travelling across Western Europe.

When by the evening one day, they got to Germany, where they booked a hotel in advance by night, they got lost. They roamed the countryside for hours, crossing through villages they couldn't find on their map. In the end, they stopped at a pub in a nondescript village, and asked the owner. He said he has no free rooms, but maybe the family of his son's school pal can help, they are Hungarian. So they called that family at midnight.

There was bafflement on both sides of the phone.

For, on the other side of the line - was my father.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Dec 14th, 2005 at 04:15:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The best way to ease traffic in a big city, is not to have bigger lanes, but on the contrary to reduce them... After a while, many choose public transportation rather then using their personal car !

Tell that to the new inhabitants of my city district...

I live in a district that was a suburb in the classic sense - practically a village swallowed by the centre's growth. But now it is converting into a 'modern' suburb - meaning that all the newly rich move in from the inner parts into newly-built big houses. And all these idiots want to go work in the inner city by car - but this district only has three roads towards the center, all of them only 2x1 lanes, with no room to widen them, and one road even has to take up traffic from outside the city.

So as you can guess, every morning traffic jams, and my bus gets struck in it too. And these friggin' idiots won't learn from it, they rather curse the government or each other, and I see ever more SUVs! SUVs in Europe! Rich people go crazy. (I'm so upset because today it was worse than ever before - 1h20m instead of the non-traffic-jam 10m bus ride!...)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 05:04:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The SUV crave is now subsiding in France, most owners are fed up getting black looks when going around !
I don't know about Hungary, but I would imagine that in Sankt Petersburg they would be the latest trend... Alas!

I knew people who went around the world in 2CV, in parts where those "city SUVs" wouldn't even be able to fare! (Jacques Cornet & Kim, Canada-Terre de feu and Paris-Tokyo )... 800 cc !

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman

by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Wed Dec 14th, 2005 at 02:33:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Provided that the driver is of some skill it is usually possible to take a two wheel drive vehicle most places where people often use four wheel drives.

The biggest advantage of four wheel drives in rugged terrain is its ground clearance.  So even in quite rugged terrain it is seldom necessary to change into four wheel drive (which will always burn more petrol due to added transmission losses) unless there is a good chance of being bogged.

What I really detest is permanent four wheel drive  SUVs (not street four wheel drives like the Subaru WRX) and even worse there are some people around here who have taken to driving hummers.  There is simply no reason for it at all.


Truckle The Uncivil - Nullus Anxietas Sanguinae

by Truckle on Wed Dec 14th, 2005 at 07:23:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What I really detest is permanent four wheel drive  SUVs (not street four wheel drives like the Subaru WRX) and even worse there are some people around here who have taken to driving hummers.  There is simply no reason for it at all.

Except for the status that comes with it, that is...

Of course, the "being cool" angle is beginning to evaporate, more and more becoming the symbol of "Fuck all" arrogance. Not something the rich and famous want to be associated with. And the resent against the hummers et al is a two-pronged thing: it relates back to the gas slurping and the hazards these tank-surrogates pose on the road toward others.

by Nomad (Bjinse) on Wed Dec 14th, 2005 at 08:21:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, there's always the Irish solution. Lot's of roundabouts (traffic circles). Loads. Everywhere. With traffic lights on the major ones. Sigh.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 04:27:00 AM EST
Talking about Ireland and driving, I remember this sign I saw next to the counter of an Irish pub in England. It read, in large letters:
DON'T DRINK AND DRIVE
and then in tiny letters below that: you may spill your drink

Still about the British Isles, but on a different topic, I also saw, near Aldgate, in some Indian food joint, this piece of paper taped to the cash register that said Credit will be allowed for people aged 85 or older, accompanied by both their parents.

by Alex in Toulouse on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 05:03:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]


A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 11:58:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]


*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Dec 14th, 2005 at 05:17:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
ps: I only just realised that my "don't drink and drive" anecdote could be taken as a joke. It's real! Just go to the "Grafton Hotel" pub, near the train station in Bedford. I only went once. If they've taken the sign down, you can ask the regulars. Some of the regulars are characters! One of them, this old Irish guy (who was overjoyed to meet me - "you're a Celt!" said he) explained to me that his wife comes to the pub every night of the year to take him back home in a supermarket trolley, and she's been doing that for 40 years!
by Alex in Toulouse on Wed Dec 14th, 2005 at 09:33:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The most safest place to drive a car is in the middle of a demonstration... this is, of course, if the demonstration is not a green demonstration.. in this case the car could be affected.. but the integrity of the peron completely safe...

So yes... there should not be any separation between cars and pedestrians in the middle of the city....regarding highways.....well....use trains

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 04:13:47 PM EST
Before I speak about the non argument to impose a ban on drunken driving I will put out some hard facts.

In 1938 Germany suffered 7,364 dead and 180,335 injured from car accidents. That was before the war and before the mass production of the beetle Volkswagen. Accidently (pun intended) there were hardly any cars around at all. Only one million seven hundred thousand vehicles and that included busses and lorries.

After the war the number of killed in car accidents peaked in 1971 and reached 21,000 killed in traffic accidents.

But look at what happened after this!

In January 05 there were 45,350.000 cars (not counting buses and lorries) around and only 5,800 persons were killed in road accidents.

By 1938 standards we should have expected 250,000 killed in 2004.

It didn't happen. Why?

My guess is that allowing drivers to ride as fast as they want fostered their ability to better learn how to conduct an automobile. It also put pressure on the car makers to build ever securer and reliable cars.

Now it is perfectly normal to ride a car at 125 mph on a motorway and to still look out for the really fast cars which want to pass you at a higher speed.

Germans learned very much like the Italians to drive 'organicallt(, which means: you drive as fast or slow as the general situation permits.

That's a big difference to the Anglo-Saxon model where drivers are deprived by the state of their liberty to experience the individual freedom to make their own driving speed decisions.

OTOH the German and Mediterranian governments models have left it entirely to their free citizens to lead the way for their automobile industries to satisfy their cravings for ever greater individual liberty.

The results speak for themselves. On the continent it resulred in a huge success. German and French car industries are booming. Unfortunately the same cannot be said about the Anglo Saxon car industries. England has no own car industry of its own and the US Big Three have sunk to extaordinary lows and are now rated at the NY stock exchange as junk bonds.

In short: The flexible EU continental partnership model between free citizens and state regulated industries has yet again trumped the Anglo Saxon auto makers. And trumped it big time.

'mkay, that's nothing new. We know that.

More importantly I gonna hint at the Italian experience of not imposing drunk driving controls by the police. It seems to work. IIn Italy drunk drivers feel at ease going home in their car unchecked. They don't fear to be stopped and harassed by police and thus drive cautiously and very slowly. This is a great accomplishment because it shows that they are very committed to responsible driving. They take care of their fellow drivers.

The same cannot yet be said of German and French drivers, let alone drivers in the US who must fear instant police arrest - if not worse!

Anyway (and forget about the US) I think it's time to learn from the Italian drunk driving tolerance model and to introduce it in the other continental EU countries, too. It would take the frenzy and stress away from drunk drivers and uiteendelijk reduce accidents and thus mortal fatalities.

Freie Fahrt für freie Bürger. Immer!


"The USA appears destined by fate to plague America with misery in the name of liberty." Simon Bolivar, Caracas, 1819

by Ritter on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 05:46:56 PM EST
Sorry but this was the silliest argument I ever read for keeping the no-speed-limit-on-Autobahnen system in Germany...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 05:56:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But it was a fun read anyway...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 05:56:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
...and I never know when you're serious...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 06:02:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Silly arguement?

Perhaps I should introduce you to Robert. He grew up very much as described in the 'Disco' thread which talks about kids in Hippy communes. His car is a BEAST. A Merc with far more than 300 horse power. A while ago he gave me a lift from Brussels to Dortmund. That's exactly 325 km. It took him one hour fourty minutes. The tacho needle stood at 240 all the time. (He pays the Dutch police twice a year for this.)

Would you trust this guy drive you home?

Photo of Robert:
http://2003.whv.net/Fachforum/Bilder%20Referenten/Dr.%20Robert%20Georg%20Henkel.jpg


"The USA appears destined by fate to plague America with misery in the name of liberty." Simon Bolivar, Caracas, 1819

by Ritter on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 06:23:53 PM EST
I see the Grand Coalition (especially against Green goals of CO2 reduction) is alive and well in Brussels too :-)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 06:57:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Okay, I give you this one. ;-)

"The USA appears destined by fate to plague America with misery in the name of liberty." Simon Bolivar, Caracas, 1819
by Ritter on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 07:17:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
BTW, does he have any relation to that snake-oil salesman, Hans-Olaf?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Dec 14th, 2005 at 04:34:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
kcurie also made a comment in the same vein concerning highways; I briefly replied to DoDo about this as well. There´s a complete difference in my mind how to behave on highways and how to behave in urban areas. A horse of a different colour.

However. Driving 240 on a highway where allowed, fine. Driving 240 on a highway where other people don't expect cars to drive 240, wrong. Completely irresponsible. As long as the Dutch do not adopt the German way, Robert will need to adapt. It's the moral thing to do, it's the legal thing to do.

And if this is true about the Dutch police that they let it slide for money, shame on them.

by Nomad (Bjinse) on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 08:47:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sorry about the size of these pictures, but they are irresistible... and quite on topic here...



In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 06:38:28 PM EST
Very French. It is so well mapped out. Italy is not capable to follow suit. Here is the square in front of my university faculty in Rome:

Piazza della Repubblica/Esedra

http://images.encarta.msn.com/xrefmedia/sharemed/targets/images/pho/000a4/000a47a2.jpg

"The USA appears destined by fate to plague America with misery in the name of liberty." Simon Bolivar, Caracas, 1819

by Ritter on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 07:15:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That "magic roundabout" is in the UK somewhere.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 07:21:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I know this is not linked to driving, but I still think these are worth a look. Part of an alleged "why women live longer than men series" (but these pictures were actually stolen from some Australian safety agency whose name I've forgotten):

by Alex in Toulouse on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 07:46:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sorry, I shouldn't have linked to another website's pictures so quickly, you can delete my previous post Jérôme (pics not available, and ad => sucks. my fault)

Anyhow I need to find that Australian agency again, and I'll instead post a link to that, it had some amazing pictures about totally unsafe things that people do, whether when driving or working.

by Alex in Toulouse on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 07:52:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ok got it. It's the Victorian WorkCover Authority, which publishes a weekly "Absolute Shocker of the Week" and "Bodgey Scaffold of the Week" picture. These pictures have been archived by a community service in Cinncinati (but the original pics are indeed from an Australian government agency, as mentioned above, and this Cinncinati host is in a partnership with them, as I understand it).

http://www.safteng.net/worksafe_free_photo_page.htm

by Alex in Toulouse on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 08:31:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This one is interesting:

Just check out the links on the page mentioned in previous comment. Some pictures are horrible. Check out the 2004 shockers of the year (there is a picture of a guy working with a screwdriver on an Air Conditioner while held upside down, out of a window, by a colleague)

by Alex in Toulouse on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 08:38:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
by Nomad (Bjinse) on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 08:49:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You could even make great goat cheese from them too, on their off days :))
by Alex in Toulouse on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 08:53:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hmmm, this "community service", as named by the Victorian WorkCover Authority, has a dodgy "God bless America" ad on its frontpage.
by Alex in Toulouse on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 08:58:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Victorian WorkCover Authority

Now I see we Central-Eastern Europeans are still barbarians...

I checked out their Absolute Shocker of the Year top 3 (pdf!) - and none od those shocked me... in fact I think I myself did some stuff like those...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Dec 14th, 2005 at 04:29:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Maybe Central-Eastern Europeans are just too hard to shock - as in "been there, done that" ;))
by Alex in Toulouse on Wed Dec 14th, 2005 at 07:13:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Just curious... What does that tell you about yourself??

And I'm sure you know yourself, but if you do this in your own spare time, and something goes wrong, that's your loss, right? The website is largely about naming-and-shaming contractors who let their employees expose to high risks, either by neglicence or a slack hand. As so often on this forum, it ties to the debate about personal responsibility and the responsibility (of companies) toward others. Contractors could really learn about the safety measurements that is taken in modern mining industry. Half of it is about safety, safety, safety. It needs to be hammered in.

by Nomad (Bjinse) on Wed Dec 14th, 2005 at 08:30:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Maybe it tells something about CEE self-destructivism...

Seriously, you made a good point I didn't thought of, but the problem is that contractors and companies here are indeed often irresponsible and improvising. Tough there has been improvements with the EU. But the self-destructivism part: for example, road workers or workers near loud machines almost never wear earplugs, but it seems they see it either as 'manly' or practical to not even require one.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Dec 14th, 2005 at 04:58:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Just like miners don't like wearing masks.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Dec 14th, 2005 at 05:09:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I knew something fishy was going on when I noticed one car driving on the "wrong" side of the road.

The running gag on our department is that the British have just one skill left and that's managing. They do that excessively well. Clear-cut example here.

So yes, very well managed, but the exact opposite which Monderman (and this diary) argues, as long as these roundabouts are located in urban areas. This is segregation to the extreme.

by Nomad (Bjinse) on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 07:55:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Swindon.
Image hosted by PicsPlace.to
Image hosted by PicsPlace.to

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Dec 14th, 2005 at 04:27:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Very simple, there is only one rule: if you are in front, you are right, if you are behind, you are wrong.

Once you know that, it's very easy. And once you are comfortable driving in Paris, you will be able to drive anywhere on the planet. I have tried Tehran, Caracas, Moscow and Cairo and, yes, Paris rules make it very easy to drive. Zurich is another matter, but thankfully I grew up in Strasbourg, so i can deal with that.

Driving in Germany and in the US is surprisingly similar, and slow. In my experience, it is much easier to drive fast in France than in Germany. German drivers take it as a slight when you overtake them, especially with a smallish French car, so you have to deal with vindicative behavior (I refer you to the rule above, but when they have cars 5 times more powerful than you and they decide to overtake you again, there is little to be done to stop them, and then they are in front of you again...).

But yes, Parisian driving results in lots of small scratches and relatively fewer really bad accidents. Our car does not have a single intact piece of its body intact.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 06:48:04 PM EST
In france, regularly, people complain that tress planted on the side of the roads re dangerous (the famous platanes) because people crash on them.
An answer to this was that platanes makes you feel less secure, and that in turn you drive slower. Obviously, this is fallacious since platanes mainly kill drunk people. However, maybe we should keep the idea of forcing fear upon the drivers.

Rien n'est gratuit en ce bas monde. Tout s'expie, le bien comme le mal, se paie tot ou tard. Le bien c'est beaucoup plus cher, forcement. Celine
by UnEstranAvecVueSurMer (holopherne ahem gmail) on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 10:52:41 PM EST
The "platane" problem is more of a stroboscopic effect with sun light... Some speed up to get the "good" rhythm, while other slow down, in the end they get some hypnotic stance and don't see the curb (or the other car)...

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman
by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Wed Dec 14th, 2005 at 02:42:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
One addition on speeding and speed restrictions, to show you where I come from.

German magazine DER SPIEGEL, back before its rightward shift, used to have some excellently researched articles about court cases that didn't limit themselves to the judge's judgement or the stated opinions.

One case that impressed me was the cruel case of a Turkish immigrant, who was indicted for causing a severe traffic accident in which among others his whole family died. The main cause of the disaster the jury identified was speeding across a Baustelle (construction site) on a highway, and at which speed an avoiding maneuver at a certain place logically led to overturning.

What SPIEGEL called attention to was the circumstance that the driver was speeding relative to permitted speed (IIRC some 30-40 km/h above) - but not relative to the other cars! Witnesses said that traffic was busy when the accident happened, and everyone was driving at the same raised speed.

What this tells me is that even at such a clearly dangerous site (which according to Moderman should have forced self-moderation), the overwhelming majority of drivers overestimate their own safe-driving capabilities - and those who get in trouble by some disturbance, will kill not just themselves.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Dec 14th, 2005 at 04:54:45 AM EST
Bad roads, or multiple obstacles don't slow down that category of drivers... It's the price of the repair that does it !

We use road bumps, called "gendarme couché" (lying gendarme) to slow those speedy guys... Usually, if the speed is really higher then the fixed limit, the oil carter breaks...

In the Citroën DS time, with that magnificent oleo-pneumatic suspension, people would quit a classical road and engage in a dirt track without slowing down, as they didn't feel anything... Several minutes later the shredded tires would remind them of how the car stays on the ground...!

Being mostly a "biker", I'm always amazed of drivers not slowing down under a heavy downpour, when even with a top level bike you feel that you "have" to slow down... Or shift to the "gliding option" !

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman

by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Wed Dec 14th, 2005 at 08:06:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Good commentary, but

Bad roads, or multiple obstacles don't slow down that category of drivers...

Whom do you mean? The case I wrote about (and this was reinforced below by Nomad) showed that in some situations at least, almost all drivers are reckless speeders.

We use road bumps, called "gendarme couché" (lying gendarme) to slow those speedy guys...

Yeah, we have that too - my driving acquitances are cursing at them, while I supress an evil smile ;-)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Dec 14th, 2005 at 04:51:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
(...)but I suspect the more reckless driving part is largely constrained to an already reckless speeder/aggressive driver sub-population, who also happen to be the very same sub-population that first bought cars with airbags, when they were an expensive part of high-end cars.(...)

I was thinking of the sub-population that spends a lot on cars, and use it as a personal token, even if they are not on the easy rich end of society!

The worse immediate judgment on roads by French police and Justice is the confiscation of the car, while fines, even tough heavy, don't pertain the same effect !

Of course, I do agree that "any" driver can be a reckless speeder in some cases. Still I do feel a shift here as there are more people just hovering at the speed limit nowadays... It will also help for smaller and greener cars as the competition frenzy (mine is bigger then yours :-) ) will shift on luxury, or gadgets, or anything else...!

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman

by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Wed Dec 14th, 2005 at 06:06:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
More and more, I get the feeling we need a follow up on this diary, concerning behaviour on highways.

From personal experience, having driven a lot through Germany in October, any highway I used contained road constructions and there was no site were cars kept to the speed limit. No single one.

To a driver in a car, a dangerous site on a highway is something different than a dangerous site in a neighbourhood. I can almost guarantee you that if they would've removed the concrete sluices and placed a group of bikers or pedestrians on the side of the highway, cars would've slowed their speed. Or place a burning trainwreck to draw the attention. Driving on a highway is a monotonous event and humans are curious beavers. Hence also two-way traffic congestion when an accident occurs on just one side.

Secondly, a highway is a road with only cars. That makes the difference. There is very little self-moderation on these roads, and thiking in that line we come to an earliet point by Ritter: why not give a loose rein to drivers? That seems to work pretty much, but the road construction sites then become a problem, since they enforce the rein back onto the driver.

And even so, the deadly accidents on highways (at least in the Netherlands) form "just" 7 percent of the total. The majority occurs off the highways.

by Nomad (Bjinse) on Wed Dec 14th, 2005 at 08:59:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Again the highway...

Not again - I was just trying to explain how I got to write about highways in the first place :-) But now that you speak of it:

why not give a loose rein to drivers? That seems to work pretty much

From what I read, it doesn't. It's not just the accidents with slower cars - paradoxically, speeders cause traffic jams.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Dec 14th, 2005 at 04:47:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I should look this up, but there was a report saying that on Germany highways the rate of accidents is relatively the same, though the severity of these accidents is higher... Hence my pretty much appendix. Statistically, when you're involved in an accident on a German highway there is a larger chance you get killed. If you know more (better?) information, I'd welcome that.

As for traffic jams, you're right on. That's a different aspect and ties in with the efficiency of road-use. Efficiency is a big, big issue currently in the Netherlands, being so densely populated and strains on its road network. To close this discussion up for now, one more anecdote I heard from a young traffic engineer who was involved in finding the optimum of highway efficiency and traffic jams.

They did an experiment on a motorway which had traffic congestion on a daily basis by commuters. It was arranged that three, four police cars would drive at the same speed, say 80 km/h, in one line divided over all available road strips. This was to enforce the traffic behind the police to keep at a low speed. New batches of police cars were continuously introduced from the same starting point. At a constant speed between 80 and 90 km/h the efficiency of the motorway became ~1.5 times larger; traffic jams began to form 45 minutes later - this was the point the maximum capability of the road was reached and there were simply too many cars trying to get onto the road.

Smart car technology might be an answer for enhanced efficiency, as well as safety, by creating zones where the speed of cars are regulated electronically. The thing is that this is complete enforcement of speed on the driver and thus an exact reverse of the commonly accepted situation... I'm still for it, feeling that the frustration of sitting in a traffic jam outweighs driving at an imposed speed for a selective zone...

by Nomad (Bjinse) on Thu Dec 15th, 2005 at 12:05:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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