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"The infliction of pain is eroticised."

by Chris Kulczycki Mon Dec 5th, 2005 at 02:31:40 PM EST

As many of us here try to keep the issue of torture alive in the blogosphere, the question of the causes of torture must arise. Why do seemingly normal people inflict pain on others? Do we train our soldiers to be cruel, or do the cruel become soldiers, or are we all cruel? Do our leaders really have so little regard for humanity, or do they believe that the end justifies the means? Is this a subject that no one wants to read about; are we in denial?

Having no training in psychology, I am hesitant to undertake the subject. It is both unpleasant and upsetting to ponder the depths of the depravity that the human mind can reach. It took me three hours to start writing this post--I didn't want to face it. As I Googled articles about torture, I found far too much about the pleasure and sexuality of torture; these are not subjects one can easily read about. Below is what I have compiled. There is much more to be said, but I don't have the stomach for it.

The title of this post is a quote from a Guardian by Professor Joanna Bourke; more of that article is quoted later.

More below:


What is Torture

Torture induces both physiological and psychological effects. But it is widely agreed that the psychological impact is often greater and tends to remain with the subject long after the actual activity is discontinued.

From the CIA Human Resource Exploitation Training Manual - 1983 (link):

The purpose of all coercive techniques is to induce psychological regression in the subject by bringing a superior outside force to bear on his will to resist. Regression is basically a loss of autonomy, a reversion to an earlier behavioral level. As the subject regresses, his learned personality traits fall away in reverse chronological order. He begins to lose the capacity to carry out the highest creative activities, to deal with complex situations, or to cope with stressful interpersonal relationships or repeated frustrations.

The threat of coercion usually weakens or destroys resistance more effectively than coercion itself. For example, the threat to inflict pain can trigger fears more damaging than the immediate sensation of pain.

The threat of death has been found to be worse than useless. The principal reason is that it often induces sheer hopelessness; the subject feels that he is as likely to be condemned after compliance as before. Some subjects recognize that the threat is a bluff and that silencing them forever would defeat the questioner's purpose.

If a subject refuses to comply after a threat has been made, it must be carried out. Otherwise, subsequent threats will also prove ineffective. <snip>

The torture situation is a contest between the subject and his tormentor. Pain that is being inflicted upon the subject from outside himself may actually intensify his will to resist. On the other hand, pain that he feels he is inflicting upon himself is more likely to sap his resistance. For example, if he is required to maintain a rigid position such as standing at attention or sitting on a stool for long periods of time, the immediate source of discomfort is not the questioner but the subject himself. After a while, the subject is likely to exhaust his internal motivational strength.

Intense pain is quite likely to produce false confessions, fabricated to avoid additional punishment. This results in a time-consuming delay while an investigation is conducted and the admissions are proven untrue. During this respite, the subject can pull himself together and may even use the time to devise a more complex confession that takes still longer to disprove.

From the United Nations Convention Against Torture (bold added). Please note, in particular article 3 paragraph 1, “No State Party shall expel, return ("refouler") or extradite a person to another State where there are substantial grounds for believing that he would be in danger of being subjected to torture”:

Article 1

1. Any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.

2. This article is without prejudice to any international instrument or national legislation which does or may contain provisions of wider application.

Article 2

1. Each State Party shall take effective legislative, administrative, judicial or other measures to prevent acts of torture in any territory under its jurisdiction.

2. No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat of war, internal political in stability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture.

3. An order from a superior officer or a public authority may not be invoked as a justification of torture.

Article 3

1. No State Party shall expel, return ("refouler") or extradite a person to another State where there are substantial grounds for believing that he would be in danger of being subjected to torture.

2. For the purpose of determining whether there are such grounds, the competent authorities shall take into account all relevant considerations including, where applicable, the existence in the State concerned of a consistent pattern of gross, flagrant or mass violations of human rights.

Article 16

1. Each State Party shall undertake to prevent in any territory under its jurisdiction other acts of cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment which do not amount to torture as defined in article I, when such acts are committed by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. In particular, the obligations contained in articles 10, 11, 12 and 13 shall apply with the substitution for references to torture of references to other forms of cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

Torture Techniques Used in Iraq

From  the "Executive summary of Article 15-6 investigation of the 800th
Military Police Brigade by Maj. Gen. Antonio M. Taguba" (link):


6.  (S) I find that the intentional abuse of detainees by military police personnel included the following acts:  
a.  (S) Punching, slapping, and kicking detainees; jumping on their naked feet;
b.  (S) Videotaping and photographing naked male and female detainees;
c.  (S) Forcibly arranging detainees in various sexually explicit positions for photographing;
d.  (S) Forcing detainees to remove their clothing and keeping them naked for several days at a time;
e.  (S) Forcing naked male detainees to wear women's underwear;
f.   (S) Forcing groups of male detainees to masturbate themselves while being photographed and videotaped;
g.  (S) Arranging naked male detainees in a pile and then jumping on them;
h.  (S) Positioning a naked detainee on a MRE Box, with a sandbag on his head, and attaching wires to his fingers, toes, and penis to simulate electric torture;
i.   (S) Writing "I am a Rapest"  (sic) on the leg of a detainee alleged to have forcibly raped a 15-year old fellow detainee, and then photographing him naked;
j.   (S) Placing a dog chain or strap around a naked detainee's neck and having a female Soldier pose for a picture;
k.  (S) A male MP guard having sex with a female detainee;
l.   (S) Using military working dogs (without muzzles) to intimidate and frighten detainees, and in at least one case biting and severely injuring a detainee;
m. (S) Taking photographs of dead Iraqi detainees.
<snip>

8.  (U) In addition, several detainees also described the following acts of abuse, which under the circumstances, I find credible based on the clarity of their statements and supporting evidence provided by other witnesses (ANNEX 26):
a.  (U) Breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees;
b.  (U) Threatening detainees with a charged 9mm pistol;
c.  (U) Pouring cold water on naked detainees;
d.  (U) Beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair;
e.  (U) Threatening male detainees with rape;
f.   (U) Allowing a military police guard to stitch the wound of a detainee who was injured after being slammed against the wall in his cell;
g.  (U) Sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick.
h.  (U) Using military working dogs to frighten and intimidate detainees with threats of attack, and in one instance actually biting a detainee.

The Motivation for Torture

The idea that anyone, you or I, is capable of inflicting torture is difficult to grasp, despite the evidence. If we do not believe that we, or at least some of us, are stronger, then it would be hard to exist. From Wikipedia:

It was long thought that "good" people would not torture and only "bad" ones would, under normal circumstances. Research over the past 50 years suggests a disquieting alternative view, that under the right circumstances and with the appropriate encouragement and setting, most people can be encouraged to actively torture others. Stages of torture mentality include:

·    Reluctant or peripheral participation

·    Official encouragement: As the Stanford prison experiment and Milgram experiment show, many people will follow the direction of an authority figure (such as a superior officer) in an official setting (especially if presented as a compulsory obligation), even if they have personal uncertainty. The main motivations for this appear to be fear of loss of status or respect, and the desire to be seen as a "good citizen" or "good subordinate".

·    Peer encouragement: to accept torture as necessary, acceptable or deserved, or to comply from a wish to not reject peer group beliefs. At worst this leads to competition between torturers to produce more pain or harsher results.

·    Dehumanization: seeing victims as objects of curiosity and experimentation, where pain becomes just another test to see how it affects the victim.

·    Disinhibition: socio-cultural and situational pressures may cause torturers to undergo a lessening of moral inhibitions and as a result act in ways not normally countenanced by law, custom and conscience.

·    Organisationally, like many other procedures, once torture becomes established as part of internally acceptable norms under certain circumstances, its use often becomes institutionalised and self-perpetuating over time, as what was once used exceptionally for perceived necessity finds more reasons claimed to justify wider use.


Again, I find this repugnant; there is no choice; how could you not?. From NewScientist.com
All humans are capable of committing torture and other "acts of great evil". That is the unhappy conclusion drawn from an analysis of psychological studies.

Over 25,000 psychological studies involving eight million participants support this finding, say Susan Fiske and colleagues at Princeton University in New Jersey, US.
The researchers considered the circumstances surrounding how individuals committed seemingly inexplicable acts of abuse in the midst of the US military's torture of Iraqi inmates at the Abu Ghraib prison in 2003 and 2004.

"Could any average 18-year-old have tortured these prisoners? I would have to answer: 'Yes, just about anyone could have.'", Fiske says.

The Torture Pictures

And what of the images of torture taken at Abu Ghraib prison and other locations? How would you justify taking photos of people scared, naked, and in pain. When I drove a truck full of supplies to the Gulf Coast, I took a camera. But I found it impossible to take photos of the people there, to invade their privacy, to show their fear and pain. How do you photograph the tortured?


This festival of violence is highly pornographic. The victims have been reduced to exhibitionist objects or anonymous "meat". They either wear hoods, or are beheaded by the camera. The people taking the photographs exult in the genitals of their victims. There is no moral confusion here: the photographers don't even seem aware that they are recording a war crime. There is no suggestion that they are documenting anything particularly morally skewed. For the person behind the camera, the aesthetic of pornography protects them from blame.

Indeed, there is a carnivalesque atmosphere to the photographs. The perpetrators of this sexual violence are clearly enjoying themselves. The cliche "war is hell" takes on a chilling new vigour in these images. After all, these photographs are not "about" the horrors of war. Many, if not most, are part of a glorification of violence. There is no question that many of these snapshots were taken by people who were pleased by what they were seeing. Or what they had done. They are trophies, memorialising agreeable actions. <snip>

Furthermore, the pornography of pain as shown in these images is fundamentally voyeuristic in nature. The abuse is performed for the camera. It is public, theatrical, and elaborately staged. These obscene images have a counterpart in the worst, non-consensual sadomasochistic pornography. The infliction of pain is eroticised. <snip>

The display of cruel pleasure taken in punishing Iraqi prisoners has reverberated throughout the world, confirming in many countries the negative stereotype of westerners as decadent and sexually obsessed. Many people have questioned the motives and conduct of the war in Iraq, but these pornographic images have stripped bare what little force remained in the humanitarian rhetoric concerning the war. In the Arab world, the damage has been done, and is irrevocable.

Professor Joanna Bourke, a military historian, writing for the Guardian.

Justifying Torture

From Monday's BBC :

In the US view, torture has to involve "severe pain" and harsh interrogations do not necessarily amount to torture.
Ms Rice accepted that prisoner transfers, known as "renditions", take place and said they were not unusual. The French had moved Carlos the Jackal directly from Sudan that way in 1994, she pointed out.
The United States acted, she said, in accordance with its legal obligations, among which is the 1984 UN "Convention against Torture and other Cruel, Inhuman and Degrading Treatment or Punishment.
This defines torture as follows: "Torture means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind..."
It will be seen that a lot depends on the definition of "severe." In a memorandum on 1 August 2002, the then Assistant US Attorney General Jay Bybee said that "the adjective severe conveys that the pain or suffering must be of such a high level of intensity that the pain is difficult for the subject to endure." He even suggested that "severe pain" must be severe enough to result in organ failure death. <snip>
Recent reports on the American ABC News network, quoting CIA sources, listed six so-called "Enhanced Interrogation Techniques."
  1. Grab: the interrogator grabs a suspect's shirt front and shakes him.
  2. Slap: an open-handed slap to produce fear and some pain.
  3. Belly Slap: a hard slap to the stomach with an open hand. This is designed to be painful but not to cause injury. A punch is said to have been ruled out by doctors.
  4. Standing: Prisoners stand for 40 hours and more, shackled to the floor. Said to be effective, it also denies them sleep and is part of a process known as sensory deprivation ( this was a technique used by British forces in Northern Ireland for a time until it was stopped).
  5. Cold Cell: a prisoner is made to stand naked in a cold, though not freezing, cell and doused with water.
  6. Water Boarding: the prisoner is bound to a board with feet raised, and cellophane wrapped round his head. Water is poured onto his face and is said to produce a fear of drowning which leads to a rapid demand for the suffering to end.

G.W. Bush:
"I share a deep disgust that those prisoners were treated the way they were treated,"
"Their treatment does not reflect the nature of the American people. That's not the way we do things in America. I didn't like it one bit."

From the Washington Post :
In August 2002, the Justice Department advised the White House that torturing al Qaeda terrorists in captivity abroad "may be justified," and that international laws against torture "may be unconstitutional if applied to interrogations" conducted in President Bush's war on terrorism, according to a newly obtained memo.

If a government employee were to torture a suspect in captivity, "he would be doing so in order to prevent further attacks on the United States by the Al Qaeda terrorist network," said the memo, from the Justice Department's office of legal counsel, written in response to a CIA request for legal guidance. It added that arguments centering on "necessity and self-defense could provide justifications that would eliminate any criminal liability" later.


That’s it, all I can write. But much much more needs to be said. It’s your turn. Please help keep the pressure on our politicians and media. I’ll leave you with this quote from Harvard psychiatrist Judith Herman:

"It is very tempting to take the side of the perpetrator. All the perpetrator asks is that the bystander do nothing. He appeals to the universal desire to see, hear, and speak no evil. The victim, on the contrary, asks the bystander to share the burden of pain. The victim demands action, engagement, and remembering."

Poll
Do you believe that any average 18-year-old could have tortured these prisoners?
. No because I could not bear to say yes. 14%
. No. 0%
. Yes, I do. 85%

Votes: 7
Results | Other Polls
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I'll try to add to this post later. But for now I'm going to pick my 6-year old son up from school and play with him in the newly fallen snow.

This will be on dKOS in the morning if you'd like to recommend.

Do not feel safe. The poet remembers.
Czeslaw Milosz

by Chris Kulczycki on Mon Dec 5th, 2005 at 02:36:10 PM EST
..in various books and lectures, proposed the concept of 'Double-Bind'

http://www.oikos.org/baten.htm
(there are many alternative sites)

To paraphrase and precis - Double Bind describes a psychological state of being in what might be described as bi-polar morals. Two conflicting sets of values, derived from authorative sources ( eg Mother versus school teacher) do not allow a clear moral decision to be taken.

I imagine that the military situation of a) must follow orders, versus b) do not hurt civilians is a classic double bind.

Double Bind essentially involves oscillation between the poles in a futile attempt to satisfy both demands at different times. It leads to weakness and being easily led. (to shift inevitable guilt externally) in an effort to find a solution.

All of us are to some extent in some kind of double bind (family versus work for example). It's a perpetual dichotomy that we learn to survive. But in war, the personal moral issues are not just mental juggling, they are about survival.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Dec 5th, 2005 at 03:25:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Here is the link to my post on dKOS , should you care to recommend it.

Thanks.


Do not feel safe. The poet remembers.
Czeslaw Milosz

by Chris Kulczycki on Tue Dec 6th, 2005 at 07:00:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not sure of the Freudian viewpoint..!
But it might be the occasion to re-read Arthur Koestler's "The Yogi and the Comissar"...

I always liked Koestler, as his books were burned and by the Nazis, and by Staline...

An interesting quote...

"Indeed, the ideal for a well-functioning democratic state is like the ideal for a gentleman's well-cut suit- it is not noticed. For the common people of Britain, Gestapo and concentration camps have approximately the same degree of reality as the monster of Loch Ness. Atrocity propaganda is helpless against this healthy lack of imagination." (from 'A Challenge to 'Knights in Rusty Armor'', The New York Times, February 14, 1943)



"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman
by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Mon Dec 5th, 2005 at 03:50:05 PM EST
Somehow I prefer the phrasing "The infliction of pain is fetishised." A lot of the pictures taken are to me fetishing rather than eroticising torture. Maybe that distinction makes no sense. I'll post again if I can find better words to explain it.
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Mon Dec 5th, 2005 at 04:04:57 PM EST
It depends on your symbolic universe. If you are a person that takes cue from the "violence and sex should be forbidden to children", then, I think Chris is right.

On the other hand if you had never associated sex and violence and you face a situation of completely different social prohibition (or as Chris says, even rewards for a torture style behaviour), then probably the best way to make the symbolic step is through fetishism.

The innocent anthropologist (me) stated.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Mon Dec 5th, 2005 at 05:27:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't know about "eroticised" but the ability of the State to marginalize selected cohorts of a population and then promote and commit acts of violence against that cohort is so well known as to need no proof.  Just is.

Some of the worst acts of violence have been organized by little grey banalities of humanity who found torture and murder in their In-Baskets one morning and put it in their Out Baskets that afternoon.  And you are damn right I include the fire bombings of Dresden and Hamburg as well as the nuclear attacks on Nagasaki and Hiroshima in the roster along with the Gulags of the Soviet Union, the extermination camps of the NSDAP, and the "Great Leap Forward" in the People's Republic of China amongst these acts.


She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Mon Dec 5th, 2005 at 10:59:35 PM EST
I don't think The Great Leap Forward is quite the same in character as the other events you've listed.  Evil?  Yes.  But not the same.  It was just stupid.  "Gosh, we're farming rice in a field better suited to corn.  Oops.  And we've got too much iron and not enough food.  Fuuuuuuuck."

I would throw the Germans' months-long bombing of London onto the list as well.  Churchill's response, the bombing of Berlin, too, though I would give Churchill the "moral highground," if there is one to be given.  On some level, in that kind of war, I would be inclined to say to Hitler, "If you hurt, or try to hurt, our people, we're going to kill more of you."  Is that equally evil?  Perhaps so, but I, personally, think there is a distinction to be made.

The attacks delivered by the Allies in World War II were responses to attacks from the Axis, and, again, I don't personally think you can set them up as equals.

Killing your political opponents, as in the case of the Soviet Union, is not the same as killing an enemy who is trying to kill you.  And, no, that's not an attempt to justify nuking Nagasaki and Hiroshima, or fire-bombing Dresden and Hamburg.  But let's also remember that the Japanese and the Germans were not innocent in the area of WMD Development either.  It was, after all, Einstein, a communist, who came to America to warn us that the Allies needed to develop the bomb first, before the Axis beat them to it.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Mon Dec 5th, 2005 at 11:28:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I would be inclined to say to Hitler, "If you hurt, or try to hurt, our people, we're going to kill more of you."  Is that equally evil?  Perhaps so, but I, personally, think there is a distinction to be made.

I don't. Both are based on a fascistic idea of the collective.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Dec 6th, 2005 at 05:41:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sure they are.  But the collective, as it relates to defense, is built in as the mission, first and foremost, of the state.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Tue Dec 6th, 2005 at 09:47:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The motivation behind an attack doesn't make the mindset behind it any better in my mind. Killing children is JUST AS BAD whether you did it from a simple hate for their parents or as revenge for their parents' killing your child.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Dec 6th, 2005 at 10:02:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But you're tying this all in as being about revenge, when it was really about deterrence.  It was Churchill saying to Hitler, as I said I would've, "If you kill the people I'm charged with protecting, We will kill many more of you."  There's a very fine line there, granted, but a line no less.

Motivation does matter.  Is a drunk-driver who accidentally kills someone in a wreck the same as the guy who commits premeditated murder?  Of course not.  And, no, those are not analogous to the event we're discussing.  I'm just trying to illustrate a point, bearing in mind that a large part of me agrees with you.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Tue Dec 6th, 2005 at 10:35:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But you're tying this all in as being about revenge, when it was really about deterrence.

Yeah, BOTH were about making an impression on The People, in hopes of affecting the actions of the opposed State. I don't see any fine line here.

Also, the Nazis did in fact convince themselves that they are fighting preemptive wars, i.e. if they don't act first they will be destroyed by the others.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Dec 6th, 2005 at 10:42:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The annexation of Czechoslovakia was presented as a humanitarian intervention to protect the minority rights of the German speakers from the Sudeten.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 6th, 2005 at 10:45:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yeah, BOTH were about making an impression on The People, in hopes of affecting the actions of the opposed State. I don't see any fine line here.

You see no line between the British pursuing deterrence and the British pursuing revenge?  I submit to you that these, while similar in some ways, are two distinct motivations.  Britain was defending itself against a Nazi military and government that had launched an unprovoked attack on its capitol city -- and not against government targets, in many cases, but against its people as a way of breaking Britons' will to keep fighting.

The British response was not aimed at affecting "The People" nearly to the extent that it was aimed at showing Hitler that bombing its civilians would not be tolerated.  I see a difference in this.  The British didn't want that fight, nor did they wish to fight it in that way.  Hitler and the Luftwaffe commanders, on the other hand, did.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Tue Dec 6th, 2005 at 01:38:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You see no line between the British pursuing deterrence and the British pursuing revenge?

I don't think that that's what matters here.

To re-word my analogy without revenge: Killing children is JUST AS BAD whether you did it from a simple hate for their parents or to deter their parents from continuing killing your own children.

launched an unprovoked attack on its capitol city

What does that mean, 'unprovoked'? Britain and Nazi Germany were officially at war for two years.

The British response was not aimed at affecting "The People"

It was - by the time of fire-bombings, that was the sole thing it was aimed at. (Unlike US daylight bombings that more often had legitimate targets.) And let's not forget that this didn't start in Europe - Bomber Harris only now applied in Europe what he practised in the colonies (Iraq) before.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Dec 6th, 2005 at 01:55:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This revenge thing was really a bad choice of words that lead to a detour, sorry. But my earlier point about how the Nazis saw their own acts justified was about deterrence, and can't be interpreted in the revenge framework.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Dec 6th, 2005 at 02:06:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Nazis may have seen their acts as justified in the case of Czechoslovakia, but that doesn't explain Western Europe.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Tue Dec 6th, 2005 at 05:44:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Western Europe happened after the UK and France declared war on Germany for invading Poland, so it also made sense.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 6th, 2005 at 06:09:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
To re-word my analogy without revenge: Killing children is JUST AS BAD whether you did it from a simple hate for their parents or to deter their parents from continuing killing your own children.

But you would agree that, knowing that the enemy parents are trying to kill your children, it is justifiable to try to kill those parents (not their children) first, in an effort to protect your children?

What does that mean, 'unprovoked'? Britain and Nazi Germany were officially at war for two years.

By "unprovoked attack," I'm referring to the Germans bombing an area populated almost completely by civilians -- and massive numbers of civilians.  I think most people, including you, would agree that striking strategic military targets in a war is different from intentionally bombing civilians.

It was - by the time of fire-bombings, that was the sole thing it was aimed at. (Unlike US daylight bombings that more often had legitimate targets.) And let's not forget that this didn't start in Europe - Bomber Harris only now applied in Europe what he practised in the colonies (Iraq) before.

The fire-bombings, which I agree with you on, were a separate event from what (I think) we've been discussing -- the initial bombing of Londoners and the response against Berlin.  I'm only discussing this particular set of events.  Britain didn't bomb Berlin after the initial bombing of London to frighten the German people.  Churchill ordered the bombing to send a message to Hitler.

Certainly the attacks carried out in Iraq were evil.  You'll get no argument from me on that.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Tue Dec 6th, 2005 at 05:31:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's too long ago that I read it to remember the exact detail but there is a sequence in Ian Fleming's first Bond book, Casino Royale in which Bond is tortured by the villain (LeChiffre?). Fleming describes in great detail how Bond is naked in a specially prepared chair so that his genitals can be beaten. The sequence in memorable because of the clear interest Fleming had in the relationship between torturer and victim and his obvious interest in the infliction of pain.  

I think this is probably the part of the book that has made it difficult to turn into a successful film. There  was a jokey version with David Niven which I think changed the scene so it will be interesting to see how it is handled in the new version.  

by Londonbear on Tue Dec 6th, 2005 at 02:26:58 AM EST


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