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EU Budget thread - UK 2, France 1?

by Jerome a Paris Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 05:58:00 AM EST

Anglo-French tensions reignited in dispute over EU budget plans

Britain's attempts to broker a European Union budget deal were denounced by EU foreign ministers as "unacceptable" yesterday, with France demanding that the UK hand over a further €6bn of its budget rebate.

(...)

"The French are always happy to negotiate with our money," said Jack Straw, British foreign secretary. "That's never been a problem." He wants to achieve a rough parity in net payments from Britain, France and Italy.

This is the story that will not die in the English press, that the budget deal is a fight between the English and the French for the Brits' money.

And with Malta proudly supporting Britain, with all others exasperated by French grandstanding and afraid of a new confrontation with a bellicose Chirac, well that makes it a 2-1 majority for Britain, really.

Right?

Not quite, of course

The renewed Anglo-French spat drew an exasperated Dalia Grybauskaite, EU budget commissioner, to point out: "This is not just a debate between two countries." She said the British proposals were widely criticised by other member states, particularly those in eastern Europe who stand to lose most from the British presidency's plan. "The presidency has succeeded in uniting member states - in criticism of the proposals."

At least, the FT provides also some hard information:

click on picture for (somewhat better) version

The important thing to remember is that we are talking about a budget barely equal to 1% of GDP, with net contributions by the richer Western countries, rebate or no rebate, below 0.5% of these countries' GDP. The amounts may seem relatively large, but that's also because we are talking about 7 years worh of budgets...

What I hate is the discussion of those that make net payments into the EU as "losers". It's a budget, for chrissakes. You put things in common to do things together, and some of the benefits have no directly identifiable monetary value. Those that are richer put a little bit more to help those that are not. The EU is already doing too little of this, and the UK proposal is basically suggesting to cut that further (by taking EUR 14 bn from Eastern Europe to put EUR 12 bn more in UK pockets, as compared to the Luxembourg compromise last summer). And we have a 850bn budget vs the 1,000bn which was hoped for not so long ago.

The fact is that Europe's capacity for action is shrinking, and cutting the CAP would only worsen that.

Again, Europe is not a zero-sum game.

Aren't the examples of Spain, Ireland and even Greece proof that there's more to Europe than just getting a few billion in each year? These are now vibrant, mostly prosperous countries, fully democratic and integrated in the continent, and that's clearly a benefit to all, isn't it?

Display:
EU Budget thread - UK 2, France 1? | 67 comments (67 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)
In addition to that (none / 1)
the FT has yet another article explaining how CAP is an evil French plot, filled with inaccuracies and innuendo.


French farmers dig in against subsidy reform

French farmers received €9.4bn ($11bn, £6.3bn) of CAP handouts last year, more than a fifth of all European agriculture spending, which in turn accounts for 40 per cent of the entire EU budget.

And the UK gets EUR3.9bn, with a third of the arable land of France. And the agricultural budget is such a big part of the EU budget because some countries care so much about their sovereignty that they don't want a European budget for anything else (guess who?)


The French position - for now formally adopted in the EU negotiation stance - threatens to undermine a global trade deal when the World Trade Organisation meets in Hong Kong next week.

So the French are not isolated if it's a EU wide position.


Farming reform has also become a sticking point on the EU's 2007-2013 budget talks. The UK has said it will only give up its contested EU budget rebate in return for cuts in agricultural subsidies, which Paris refuses.

Blair has already given up on this. Why is the FT still arguing about this today?


So how do French farmers, who make up only 3.5 per cent of its population, have such a powerful influence over their political leaders that they can threaten to sabotage two of the world's most important multilateral negotiations?

Sabotage? That's a pretty harsh and inflammatory word, don't you think? And yet that's the permanent background to these negotiations.

It's dishonest.


Economists say France has the most to lose from EU farming reform, as it is the region's biggest agricultural exporter and many of its rural areas have little alternative to farming. It also relies on the CAP to reduce its budget deficit.

Again, unsubstnatiated facts. The CAP regime on sugar was reformed recently (to cut subsidies massively), with France in favor. Losers were expected to be Greece and Poland.

As to the CAP vs budget defict argument, this is such a blatant spin. France is a net contributor to the EU budget!!


More than half of France's CAP handouts go to the biggest 10 per cent of its farmers, while the smallest 76 per cent get only 20 per cent of payments.

This undermines France's argument that the CAP protects small farmers and defends the social and cultural balance of the countryside.

France has never been at the forefortn of that argument (sadly) - and it is the UK and Germany that refused a French proposal to cap payments per farm back in 2002. Lies, lies, lies again.


James Rollo, professor of European economic integration at Sussex University, says French consumers lose out by paying inflated prices on goods protected by tariffs of up to 200 per cent.

But he says "French consumers don't seem to mind being ripped off by their farmers"

Maybe they don't feel ripped off? Paying for quality and availability, what a strange concept.


The danger is that politicians will adopt protectionist rhetoric to increase their populist appeal to voters, making France an even more difficult negotiating partner for the foreseeable future

Who's a difficult partner in Europe? Who's isolated all the time?


In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 06:31:42 AM EST
Re: In addition to that (none / 1)
Just one point that I'm really tired of: the abuse of the term farmers in all this rhetoric. (Particularly, "French" farmers, but, in general, "farmers").

Yes, the CAP supports farmers. But, by export aids and direct subsidies, it supports (rightly or wrongly, in my view the latter), the agri-food industry.

This is also the case for the UK. And Britain's agri-food industry isn't complaining. Example: sugar market reform. For many years, sugar refiners have received scandalously liberal subsidies from the CAP. Major refiners include (German) Sud Zucker, (French) Béghin & Say, and British Sugar.

The most active lobbyist against reform... was British Sugar.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 08:02:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks for the stats! (none / 0)
It is wearying indeed to wade through all the lies.
by cambridgemac on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 10:42:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: EU Budget thread - UK 2, France 1? (none / 0)
I'm sick to death of Britons complaining of subsidizing other countries - then driving down to Benidorm on roads paid for by these subsidies.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 07:40:31 AM EST
Re: EU Budget thread - UK 2, France 1? (none / 1)
I'm even more sick of old British socialists who go play golf in Benidorm on golf courses watered with the drinking water Southern Spain does not have.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 07:42:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: EU Budget thread - UK 2, France 1? (3.00 / 2)
If I may paraphrase...

I'm sick to death of Jews complaining of subsidizing other countries - then driving down to Benidorm on roads paid for by these subsidies.

and...

I'm even more sick of old Jewish socialists who go play golf in Benidorm on golf courses watered with the drinking water Southern Spain does not have.

Let's try and keep the rampant xenophobia out of the discourse.

Money is a sign of Poverty - Culture Saying
by RogueTrooper on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 07:58:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: EU Budget thread - UK 2, France 1? (none / 0)
Well,

  1. Jews who would complain of subsidization and then drive down to Benidorm wouldn't be all Jews,

  2. 'Jews' in Europe is an ethnical denomination, not possibly a citizen-of-a-country denomination,

  3. I am not Spanish (nor have been there yet).

I think my own statement was an entirely well-focused political statement with zero xenophobia in it.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 08:02:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: EU Budget thread - UK 2, France 1? (none / 0)
It was a blanket generalisation about a particular cultureethnic group you were making. It was offensive.

Money is a sign of Poverty - Culture Saying
by RogueTrooper on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 08:07:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: EU Budget thread - UK 2, France 1? (none / 0)
In what way was it a blanket statement? It was a statement about just exactly the cultureethnic group that is hypocritical in its complaints. Which members of ther anti-subsidy-but-subsidies-benefitting people do you think doesn't deserve my scorn?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 08:12:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: EU Budget thread - UK 2, France 1? (none / 0)

I'm sick to death of Britons complaining of subsidizing other countries - then driving down to Benidorm on roads paid for by these subsidies.

This is bigoted agi-prop. That was my point. Bigoted agi-prop that defames an entire group.  

Money is a sign of Poverty - Culture Saying
by RogueTrooper on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 08:18:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: EU Budget thread - UK 2, France 1? (none / 0)
The old British socialist is someone I know personally. The irony of exporting a game invented on Scottish grasslands that need no watering to an arid climate where drinking water is at a premium is lost on him.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 08:02:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: EU Budget thread - UK 2, France 1? (none / 0)
But reading your original post it does not single out one British socialist it says it of them all.

Now, are you referening to the British Socialists who fought Franco during the Spanish Civil War. That fight was a defining momement for many on that generation of the British left.

Money is a sign of Poverty - Culture Saying

by RogueTrooper on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 08:28:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: EU Budget thread - UK 2, France 1? (none / 1)
Sorry to generalize, being Spanish and having lived in Southern California I am quite sensitive to water issues in general, and the worldwide spread of the English grassy lawn as a lifestyle/cultural icon in particular. Plus, I was really incensed by this socialist, state education advocate, rotary-clubber, golfer friend of mine and his inability to see the social implications of his little Spanish glofing vacation (including cheap, environment-destructive flights).

I do hold the highest respect and gratitude for the International Brigadists, who fought in vain.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 08:36:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: EU Budget thread - UK 2, France 1? (none / 0)
The subtitle of my personal blog, "If you tolerate this, your children will be next" is from the title of a Manic Net Preachers song about these International Brigadists, itself taken from a Spanish Republican propaganda poster on the terror bombing of Madrid (second from left, sorry found no bigger version):



*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 08:44:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: EU Budget thread - UK 2, France 1? (none / 1)
It took me a while to figure out what "terror bombing of Madrid" had to do with the Civil War, I thought immediately of March 11...

It's rather sad that googling "If you tolerate this your children will be next" brings up the music album cover but not the war propaganda poster.

Now, to go completely off-topic, Basque nationalist leader Arzalluz once said "for us the Bombs and for Madrid the paintings" in reference to the Guernica being in a Madrid museum. It made my blood boil.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 09:03:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: EU Budget thread - UK 2, France 1? (4.00 / 2)
Apology accepted. For myself, reading about the Spanish Civil War and the international left's role in fighting Franco was one of my "coming of age" political events.

Money is a sign of Poverty - Culture Saying
by RogueTrooper on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 09:09:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Coming of age (none / 0)
For me it was learning about the Spanish left's sabotaging of its own war effort, with assistance from the International left.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 09:12:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: EU Budget thread - UK 2, France 1? (4.00 / 2)
That's a rather snooty thing to say, given what we have to read (now and for so many years) in the British press.

I'm British and I'm not complaining about the tone of DoDo and Migeru's remarks.

In fact, if we had less xenophobia from Brits, Europe would be a better place.

Said from the heart but with no personal hostility.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 08:05:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: EU Budget thread - UK 2, France 1? (none / 0)
Well, I did find it offensive. The casual, and accepted Brit bashing on this site is why I rarely participate in conversations and debates in this site.

You might feel diferently, but I do not.

Money is a sign of Poverty - Culture Saying

by RogueTrooper on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 08:10:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: EU Budget thread - UK 2, France 1? (none / 0)
RogueTrooper, it would have been Brit bashing if it had been a statement about all Britons.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 08:13:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: EU Budget thread - UK 2, France 1? (none / 0)
It reads as "all Britons".

Money is a sign of Poverty - Culture Saying
by RogueTrooper on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 08:15:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: EU Budget thread - UK 2, France 1? (none / 0)
Now paint me blue, maybe I still haven't learnt English well enough, but could you please explain how my sentence is not about only those Britons who

  1. oppose subsidies for other EU countries,
  2. but benefit of them on their holidays to Spain?


*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 08:18:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: EU Budget thread - UK 2, France 1? (none / 0)
Hm... I must ask for your apologies.

I re-read what I wrote, and indeed, it can be read that way. So here is a better wording that can't be misunderstood:

I'm sick to death of those Britons who first complain of subsidizing other countries - then drive down to Benidorm on roads paid for by these subsidies.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 08:23:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: EU Budget thread - UK 2, France 1? (none / 0)

I'm sick to death of Britons complaining of subsidizing other countries - then driving down to Benidorm on roads paid for by these subsidies.

Should then read...

I am sick to death of the type of Britons who complain about subsidising other countries - then driving down to
Benidorm on roads paid for by those subsidies.

Now, please forgive my cynism of your innocence but In the article Jermome posted contained no references to Benidorm. What was the point of raising this as an example?

Money is a sign of Poverty - Culture Saying
by RogueTrooper on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 08:24:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well... (none / 0)
If I may make a suggestion to get something good from all this? As homework for all those rumbling against the nefarious Brits, why don't we come up with a list of those politicians (let's start with them) that
a) booh at the CAP & bitch at the subsidies
b) take a holiday in Spain or Portugal

The first step is pointing out the hypocricy in their statements. If this works, we can extend the research to the pundits and bash them on the heads with it, too. As RogueTrooper shows, there are plenty of Brits around who simply don't agree on all the talking points in the newspapers.

I've been thinking more and more about this, but we need in Europe (also in Brussels) a more clear name-and-shame platform for individual politicians.

by Nomad (Bjinse) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 04:52:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: EU Budget thread - UK 2, France 1? (none / 0)
I'm afraid I disagree about "the casual, and accepted Brit-bashing on this site". There may be comment against the British government, and against certain attitudes in the British press, but I don't see what you choose to call "casual Brit-bashing".

Please, will you take a look at the articles from the FT Jérôme excerpts from at the head of this thread, and put things in perspective?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 08:18:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: EU Budget thread - UK 2, France 1? (none / 0)
Where are you located RT? I'm currently stuck in the People's Republic of South Yorkshire...
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 10:27:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: EU Budget thread - UK 2, France 1? (none / 1)
Or if you like, RT, shall we play the same game with Jewish farmers holding the WTO to ransom, etc?

I'm afraid it's an easy game to play, and it's excessive.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 08:07:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Not to inflame things (none / 1)
but that's exactly it.

Please replace "French" by "Jew" any day in the British press and you will be surprised by what you read.

The reverse is not true.

You will note that I criticise the coverage by British press of France or issues where France palys a role, not British citizens, and I stand by that.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 08:54:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: EU Budget thread - UK 2, France 1? (none / 0)
Rogue Trooper, you loose per direct application of Godwin's law

Britons, the new Jews of Europe? Get a grip, my friend. You are ridiculous.

And that's coming from a French guy whose sig quotes one of the most quintessentially British Briton ever, the great late Henry John Temple, third Viscount Palmerston.
by Francois in Paris on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 09:13:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: EU Budget thread - UK 2, France 1? (none / 0)
Please, we just managed to climb down before the start of a flame war, do not make it restart!

Both I and Migeru apologised in the end.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 09:16:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: EU Budget thread - UK 2, France 1? (none / 0)
Let them have their Anglo-French fun... it's as if the 100 years war didn't teach them anything.</snark>

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 09:18:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: EU Budget thread - UK 2, France 1? (none / 0)
I'm from Barcelona.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 09:26:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: EU Budget thread - UK 2, France 1? (none / 1)
I suppose that is consistent with your saying you're not from Spain.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 09:30:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: EU Budget thread - UK 2, France 1? (none / 1)
Well, in fact, the guy from Barcelona is in truth from Berlin.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 09:34:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: EU Budget thread - UK 2, France 1? (none / 1)
I get it, you two are foreign agents provocateurs.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 09:45:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: EU Budget thread - UK 2, France 1? (none / 0)
Hapsburg infiltrators, to be precise.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 10:20:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hapsburg lip? (none / 1)
Hah. Then the French and British are going to...

Conclude an alliance against you.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 10:42:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Hapsburg lip? (none / 1)
The nNormans are coming! The Normans are coming!

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 10:45:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: EU Budget thread - UK 2, France 1? (none / 1)
What's the deal with all those Fawlty Towers jokes? It took me almost 4 hours to figure this one out.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 12:26:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: EU Budget thread - UK 2, France 1? (none / 0)
Well at least you for one have figured something out.

(Fawlty Towers?)

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 12:40:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: EU Budget thread - UK 2, France 1? (none / 1)
Follow DoDo's link, then feed the name you'll see and "barcelona" into google and hit "I'm feeling lucky".

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 12:42:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: EU Budget thread - UK 2, France 1? (none / 1)
I didn't even see the link. Wow. Impressive. Wheels within wheels.

And dead on topic: European nationalities, difficulties of understanding between, foodstuffs...

Mr Fawlty, 'e put mince in my paella...

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 12:58:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: EU Budget thread - UK 2, France 1? (none / 1)
DoDoism at its best.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 01:00:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: EU Budget thread - UK 2, France 1? (4.00 / 2)
Oooops, so sorry

I wrote my response before lunch and hit the post button after. Didn't see the development. Anyway, you shouldn't have (apologised). If we can't indulge a bit of trans-European bashing once in a while, where are we going ... :>
by Francois in Paris on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 09:46:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: EU Budget thread - UK 2, France 1? (none / 0)
afew, are you putting words in my mouth?

Money is a sign of Poverty - Culture Saying
by RogueTrooper on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 08:11:28 AM EST
Re: EU Budget thread - UK 2, France 1? (none / 0)
Is that a reply to my sally about "Jewish" farmers?
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 08:13:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
TIme out (none / 0)
Can we all back off now? Thanks.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 08:17:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: TIme out (none / 0)
Please?

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 08:24:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: TIme out (none / 0)
Done.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 08:25:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
To return to the subject (4.00 / 3)
More than half of France's CAP handouts go to the biggest 10 per cent of its farmers

This is a constant talking point, which is supposed to utterly condemn France.

It's substantially true (which I regret since I'm in favour of capping).

I have distribution figures for 2001 (it's not easy to get this kind of table, and 2001 was the latest year I could get them for. But 2001 and today are fairly similar).

In direct farm aids, France did indeed distribute about half the funds to the top ten per cent.

But, against that, the EU-15, overall, gave more than half the direct aid budget to about 6% of farmers.

The UK handed out to the top slices of its farmers, constituting just under 8%, no less than 53% of the funds allocated to it.

Er, pot, kettle?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 08:53:16 AM EST
Re: To return to the subject (none / 1)
Yep, from another bit of the FT:


Quentin Peel: Britain must rethink the rebate

[The UK proposal] is a classic Treasury fix, whose central element is the reduction of the UK net contribution and the preservation of its rebate rather than serious thinking about the union's spending priorities. After months of preaching about the need for reform of the Common Agricultural Policy, this package will be more skewed towards farm spending than it was at the start. But it will at least contain a commitment to review all EU spending, including on the CAP, from 2008.

UK governments of both political persuasions have always argued that the existence of the rebate ensured pressure would be maintained for reform of the EU budget and especially for reduction of farm spending. Yet the reality is that an obsession with the UK net contribution reduces pressure on London itself to support that process.

The most glaring example is British support for farm spending that is concentrated on the richest farmers. Richard Baldwin, professor of international economics at the Graduate Institute of International Studies in Geneva, calculates that 1.5 per cent of the largest farms get 27 per cent of all CAP spending and the top 6 per cent get 53 per cent. Yet when the European Commission proposed to set a ceiling on the size of farm eligible for income support in the latest round of CAP reforms, the move was blocked by the UK because it has fewer small farmers than other member states.

(...)

What is needed is a scheme that ceases to single out the "British problem" as unique. That poisons the entire debate. Mr Blair should propose instead a generalised system that would include all net contributors. Only then can a fair and intelligent budget reform be agreed. It should certainly include a cap on farm support for the wealthy, be they British, French or Dutch. But as long as the UK rebate is maintained in its present form, Mr Blair not only alienates his best friends (such as Mr Ansip), but also undermines the reform process that he says he supports.



In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 08:59:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: To return to the subject (4.00 / 4)
From today's Guardian:Multinationals, not farmers, reap biggest rewards in Britain's share of CAP payouts

The largest individual payments made to the UK under the much criticised common agricultural policy are going to multinational food companies and not, as commonly assumed, to farmers. A Guardian investigation into CAP payments has found that millions of pounds are being paid to manufacturers of bulk fats and sugars used to produce processed foods.

As Britain clashed with other European countries in Brussels again yesterday over its attempt to link cuts in the UK rebate to reform of the EU's agricultural subsidies, our analysis of figures obtained under Freedom of Information shows where the CAP money has been going. The largest UK recipients of money include companies such as Tate & Lyle, Nestle, Cadbury, Kraft and a host of manufacturers of bulk animal fats, sugars and refined starches. Further FoI requests reveal a similar pattern of the largest individual payments going to multinationals in other European countries. France, which remains set against CAP reform, has refused to release details of its payments.

 The largest recipient of payments in the UK for 2003-4 was Tate & Lyle and its subsidiaries, which took more than £227m over two years from the CAP. Meadow Foods, a leading manufacturer of bulk fats and proteins for ice cream, spreads, sports drinks, processed meats and confectionery, received nearly £26m in the year 2003-4. Other large dairy manufacturers supplying the processed food industry dominate the list of top recipients of money paid by the Rural Payments Agency (RPA) which administers CAP payments in this country.

Our detailed analysis of the full list of RPA payments has also unearthed a number of anomalies. They include:
· Gate Gourmet, the airline catering company whose industrial dispute brought British Airways to a halt this summer, received more than £500,000 from the CAP last year for flying tiny, individual helpings of milk and sugar into international airspace, thereby qualifying for an export subsidy.
· Premier Foods, the company at the heart of the Sudan 1 contamination crisis, received over £60,000, believed to be in export subsidies.
· Eton college received £2,652 last year but admitted to us that what it was for was "a bit of a mystery". Although it tried, it was unable to obtain information for us from the RPA to explain the payment.
· Drug companies, including GlaxoSmithKline, Boots, Reckitt, and ACS Dobfar, received substantial payments for using sugar in the manufacture of pharmaceuticals.



Money is a sign of Poverty - Culture Saying
by RogueTrooper on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 09:06:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Choking on my dairy creamer... (none / 1)
Gate Gourmet, the airline catering company whose industrial dispute brought British Airways to a halt this summer, received more than £500,000 from the CAP last year for flying tiny, individual helpings of milk and sugar into international airspace, thereby qualifying for an export subsidy.


A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 09:09:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Choking on my dairy creamer... (none / 0)
I know, it boggles the mind.

Money is a sign of Poverty - Culture Saying
by RogueTrooper on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 09:16:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: To return to the subject (none / 0)
Thanks for flagging this one, RT. It goes with what I was saying up at the top of the thread: agri-food companies get a lot out of the CAP and lobby against reform.

But I admit I wouldn't have even guessed at the Gate Gourmet rip-off.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 09:24:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: To return to the subject (none / 0)
Nice to read some common sense. And I certainly agree that capping aids to big farmers is the right way to go.

But, in contrast to facts about distribution to big farmers, here's something from a supposedly serious UK newspaper, the Daily Telegraph, explaining the UK rebate:

The rebate aims to address the way that EU spending is dominated by agricultural subsidies largely favouring small farmers. There are millions of smallholders in France, which designed the system, but few in Britain.

For the record, there are about 450,000 farmers in France receiving CAP subsidies, and most of those are by no stretch of the imagination "smallholders".

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 09:17:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: To return to the subject (none / 0)
For the record, there are about 450,000 farmers in France receiving CAP subsidies, and most of those are by no stretch of the imagination "smallholders".

Shouldn't it read, most of the money goes to those who are by no stretch of the imagination "smallholders"?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 09:23:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: To return to the subject (4.00 / 2)
I'm just pointing out that there are not "millions" of "smallholders" in France. It's simply astonishing that a supposedly serious broadsheet can print this kind of falsehood.

But what you say is also true.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 09:33:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: To return to the subject (4.00 / 2)
The irony is that a CAP strategy that honestly helps and favour small, local farmers ( even the French ones ;-) over large multi-nationals would probably be quite popular with the British public ( certainly amongst the swing voting segment as well ).

Money is a sign of Poverty - Culture Saying
by RogueTrooper on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 09:42:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: To return to the subject (none / 0)
I would hope so -- but see Gary J's diary, Why do the British prefer cheap food to rich farmers? for a different take.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 09:49:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: To return to the subject (4.00 / 3)
I did read it and found a fair amount that I agreed with.  I do believe, however, that a CAP that genuinly favours local "family farmers", and has those farmers saying so rather than saying how CAP has beggared them, would do much to change the views of the British public.

Money is a sign of Poverty - Culture Saying
by RogueTrooper on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 10:00:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: To return to the subject (none / 0)
It would be nice if some British politician would take up that cause, even if a conservative one. Tough it may be late - I don't know what is the policy of the new German government's responsible ministers, but had there been such a British-German alliance under the previous German government, it may have defeated opposition (from France, Italy, Spain). IIRC when the German government (they had a Green minister) proposed such a change (also a support refocused on organic farming) at Nice in 2002, it was soundly defeated by the French-led majority.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 09:57:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: To return to the subject (none / 1)
Yes, the French govt under Chirac are hostile to organic farming, with the result that France has a relatively small surface organically farmed, and is a net importer of organic foodstuffs.

There is, however, a lively movement in France in favour of organic and/or high-quality local production by small, sustainable units. Greens/organic people, on the one hand, and among farmers, the Confédération Paysanne, the union José Bové led, are fairly noisy and inspire quite a lot of sympathy.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 10:34:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: EU Budget thread - UK 2, France 1? (none / 1)
It just wouldn't be Europe without the British and the French fighting about something.  Whether it's the above comments, or Chirac's statement about British food -- which had to be one of the worst political statements one could make on his way to a summit to discuss poverty -- or Britons insisting on calling the French "frogs," it really seems like these are two countries that simply enjoy bashing the hell out of each other.

Anyway, explain this to me:  Is this EU budget for next year, or is it, as Jerome said, for seven years?  I thougt I remembered the spending being $850b.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 10:28:44 AM EST
Re: EU Budget thread - UK 2, France 1? (none / 0)
Let's do some mental arithmetic.

The EU's GDP is about 10 trillion.
The EU's budget is about 1% of GDP.
The Commission's proposal was of about 1000 billion.
Hence the Commission's proposal was for about 10 years.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 10:31:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: EU Budget thread - UK 2, France 1? (none / 0)
For seven years. The 2006 budget is a separate contentious issue, but not one concerning basic reforms.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 10:35:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
EU Budget thread - UK 2, France 1? | 67 comments (67 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)


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