Welcome to European Tribune. It's gone a bit quiet around here these days, but it's still going.

Let's talk about football

by Saturday Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 12:10:30 PM EST

from the diaries. -- Jérôme

If you are interested in football, I do not have to remind you of today's evening's event. Today, in Leipzig the drawing for the 2006 championships will take place. The show will start at 20.15 MET, at least on German public channel ARD. If you do not want to watch Heidi Klum and Reinhold Beckmann, just tune in at 21.31. Then, the actual drawing will start. According to protocol, it will take 23 minutes.

(Update with the draw results by DoDo:)

Group A: Germany, Costa Rica, Poland, Ecuador

Group B: England, Paraguay, Trinidad & Tobago, Sweden

Group C: Argentine, Côte d'Ivoire, Serbia & Montenegro, The Netherlands

Group D: Mexico, Iran, Angola, Portugal

Group E: Italy, Ghana, USA, Czech Republic

Group F: Brazil, Croatia, Australia, Japan

Group G: France, Switzerland, South Korea, Togo

Group H: Spain, Ukraine, Tunisia, Saudi Arabia


Original post from here

The drawing pots (is that the right word?) look as follows:

Pot 1: Germany (Group A), Brazil (Group F), Italy, Spain, Argentina, France, England, Mexico
Pot 2: Ivory Coast, Angola, Ghana, Togo, Tunesia, Paraguay, Ecuador, Australia
Pot 3: Switzerland, Czechia, Ukraine, Netherlands, Croatia, Sweden, Portugal, Poland; Special Pot: Serbia und Montenegro
Pot 4: South Korea, Japan, Iran, Saudi-Arabia, USA, Trinidad/Tobago, Costa Rica

Since the setup of the pots is clear, everyone here has been talking about the Netherlands. Every German except Franz Beckenbauer is afraid of playing against the Netherlands in the first round. Me too. For the most part because their team is better than ours. I am begging Pele, who will be responsible for the drawing from Pot 3, to spare us Germans the fate of being the first football championship host kicked out of the tournament in the first round.

Are you going to watch the drawing tonight? What would be your favourite group for your team?

Display:
As the European team with the lowest Fifa-ranking, Serbia and Montenegro will be allotted to a South American group. It will play either against Brazil, Argentina or Mexico. This way, there will be no group consisting of more than two European teams.
by Saturday (geckes(at)gmx.net) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 03:57:39 AM EST
My favourite Group A:

Germany (made it only to the championship because of its status as host)
Togo (interesting newcomer, beat the aspiring Senegalese team)
Switzerland (for the sake of German-Turkish cohabitation: there's nothing but a common enemy...)
Saudi-Arabia (8:0 in 2002. Klose scored 4 times. I want this to happen again!)

by Saturday (geckes(at)gmx.net) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 04:10:01 AM EST
At the moment I cheer for too many teams to be able to draw up a dream draw...

...however, evil as I am, I ardently wish for another South Korea-Italy confrontation, with the exact same result :-)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 04:40:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Italy SUX.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 04:28:40 AM EST
The paradox of football hates, in my observation, is the bemused perplexion with which most German fans watch both English and Oranje fans who view their team as the arch-enemy.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 04:36:41 AM EST
You have to understand.... The Germans ARE the arch-enemies of the Dutch when it comes to football!!!!

They are, because they´ve beaten teams (also the Dutch!!) just too often in the final last minutes of a match. According to former Ajax player Van der Vaart, the German teams actually train for those final minutes to go above and beyond and force the winning goal.

For the rest, I will now hide for the rest of the winter underneath the blanket, groaning about it. This is just our luck. Argentina. Our big 1998 failure. Time for payback, or another incredible fiasco??

Good grief.

by Nomad (Bjinse) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 10:42:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The worst enemy of all Dutch teams are their nerves when they approach the penalty spot. They consistently fail to put the ball in the net. Dutch players should drink a cup of hot chocolate after extra time. It helps to re-focuse and creates the will power needed to overcome the Willensstärke of the German goal keeper.

read also:  "Willensstärke kann man nicht lernen",  Philosoph Gunter Gebauer über die Rolle von Siegertypen in Der Tagesspiegel.

link:  

http://archiv.tagesspiegel.de/archiv/20.05.2001/ak-th-556365.html

"The USA appears destined by fate to plague America with misery in the name of liberty." Simon Bolivar, Caracas, 1819

by Ritter on Sat Dec 10th, 2005 at 06:04:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Everyone of the Dutch knows this... It's a national trauma.

TRAUMA!!!!!

I'm sorry, I'll be back underneath the blanket.

by Nomad (Bjinse) on Sat Dec 10th, 2005 at 10:39:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
we won the EC '04 QF on penalties from sweden- against all odds

but that doesn't mean the curse is broken: Netherlands lost on penalties in '92, '94, '96, '98, '00

while they were often the best in-game team!

by koenzel (koen@vanschie.net) on Sun Dec 11th, 2005 at 09:42:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
One of the most bizzarre moments on TV for me was at the Portugal EC, when the German television's reporter was with Dutch fans. (The German television always sent a female reporter to look at fan reactions for any country.) This was just after the Netherlands got further, and some days after Germany was out - and what were the Oranje fans doing? Celebrating their own team?

Nah, they were singing "Schade, schade, alles ist vorbei"... with the German TV reporter bemusedly smiling in front of them...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sat Dec 10th, 2005 at 06:12:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Swell memories.

You know, even when we are arch-enemies, there is really no need to be actually vindictive. Who needs all that? Sometimes, I think that the Germans actually like us because we consider them such a nefarious opponent.

Seriously, if the odds are upped, Argentina wins as the all-time Dutch arch-enemy because of the world cup in 1978, which we lost completely unfairly in the finale from Argentina. More trauma.

BTW, whataboutbob should be pleased about this thread...

by Nomad (Bjinse) on Sat Dec 10th, 2005 at 10:50:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sometimes, I think that the Germans actually like us because we consider them such a nefarious opponent.

You wouldn't be off that all.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sat Dec 10th, 2005 at 11:42:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
1974 was the trauma, of course. The Dutch had very funny times, just look at their hotel bills (scroll down there).
by das monde on Sat Dec 10th, 2005 at 10:11:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This of course implies the questions: "Do they have an arch enemy? If so who? If not, why not?!
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Sat Dec 10th, 2005 at 03:44:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, in fact, it seems to me German football fans don't have an arch-enemy.

They admire the English not for playing good, but for being 150%-motivated when playing against them (and the Premier League seems to be the most popular foreign league for fans). They respect, even fear the Oranjes, many freely admitting that the latter have the better players.

What German fans and TV commentators alike seem to have a disdain for is artistic 'Latin' football, viewed as inefficient and wasteful sparkles (in a strangely close approximation of the foreign stereotypes of Germans that are generally way-off). Then again, when they criticise the German team, it is usually the lack of this that is missed... kind of schisophrenic.

However, the one team German football fans always wish to beat is Brazil.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sat Dec 10th, 2005 at 06:07:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The team should be Ivory Coast. They should win this world cup. If we do not root for them in Europe , who else would do it.

So I go with Ivory Coast.

Just comment that Germany is already in group A and Brasil in group F sothat if they ever classify they will never meet until the finals.. talking about "directed randomness"

A prediction: spain will fail in quarter -finals....I am still waiting for them to carry the real tri-color spanish flag for me to root for them..did you do not know that there is a spanish flag with three colors that represent everything we hold dear in ET? Well I am mixing politics and football because this is exactly what we are supposed  do here!!!:) ...meanwhile I will be glad if Spain makes it to the semi-final....winning the cup may be too much for the right-wing troup in Spain...and in any case it will not happen.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 05:39:37 AM EST
Aquesta!

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 06:48:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I am touched....Thanks... Wiki is great!!!!

I am republican monarchist... Spain is the only country in the world where this is not an oxymoron...As someone said "three colors is always better than two" and "a spanish king is better than a french president which is better than a british queen/king, the spanish is the cheapest".. Do not even tell that to the anglosaxons...shhhh

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 08:50:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Juan Carlos would be a great President of the Republic. He'd win in a landslide.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 09:40:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I am republican monarchist... Spain is the only country in the world where this is not an oxymoron...

Between the two World Wars, Hungary was a monarchy without a king, led by an admiral without a navy.

I didn't made this up.

The latter is easily explained: the winner in the turbulence at the end of WWI was a right-wing Admiral of the Austro-Hungarian navy (Miklós Horthy) who marched up to Budapest (famously on a white horse) and installed himself as dictator, taking the title of Governor. And after the peace dictates, Hungary's shores became that of the Serbo-Croatian state (with changing names).

The former is more complicated: after the Paris map-cutters left Rest-Hungary only 30% of the original area, there was a widespread revisionist movement (the 'irredentists'), headed by the government. Now this revisionism developed the national-pathologic myth of the Holy Crown: an esoteric connection between the Land and the Hungarian royal crown, both being indivisible.  And thus Horthy maintained that Hungary is a kingdom - even while he threw out the Habsburg heir to that crown from Hungary, twice...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 12:25:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
OK OK.... you almost beat us!!!

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 01:59:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Migeru you have to see this!!!

World Cup 34

You have to see the results and the flags besides the countries scrolling down!!!

We beat 3-1 Brasil with our Spanish Flag!!!!

Of course we were eliminated in QF...agaisnt the fascist!!! (doe sit ring a bell???) but they needed two matches.. World is a huge irony..It is clear the time to move to the new flag!!!

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 09:14:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
kcurie, I just followed your link.

Strange that they put up the old Reichsflagge for Germany. Historically, it is not completely wrong: Besides the Swastika, the black-white-red "tricolore" was the second official German flag, but mostly used as a trade flag (until 1935, then the Swastika became the only national flag). But already in 1934, it was the swastika which was normally used as the official national flag.

by Saturday (geckes(at)gmx.net) on Sun Dec 11th, 2005 at 09:34:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Funny, a Republic with a crown in its flag!

Incidentally, another analogy with Hungary - adopted even with a big part of the leftist vote in Parliament after the fall of communism, the official coat of arms is a historic version with the crown in it - and many people put it 'inofficially' on the flag too. (If the right-wing wins the next elections, it will assuredly be put on the flag officially too.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 12:30:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You will notice the crest differs from the current one in that the fleur de lis is missing (we have a Bourbon King after all). Also, the crown is not the royal crown.

Interestingly, Franco's flag had the Imperial coat of arms from the time of the hapsburgs, a different crown and the imperial eqgle.

Symbols...

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 12:44:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Why is the name of the Habsburg house almost always misspelled in English?

(It comes from Habicht-Burg=goshawk-castle; and few know that the origin of the family is Southeast of Zurich/Switzerland, from where they have been chasen away.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 12:50:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We call them Habsburgo or Los Austrias, but English sources insist on spelling Hapsburg... Should I revert to the "correct" spelling?

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 12:55:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I dunno, but I checked yourDictionary.com, which lists both versions as acceptable in English. Maybe some British or American ET reader can lighten us up as to the mis-spellt versions' origins?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 01:03:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Wikipedia does say
Habsburg (sometimes spelled Hapsburg, but never so in official use) was one of the major ruling houses of Europe.


A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 01:06:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Indeed it's high time that an African team wins the Cup! Only, with four newbies, who don't yet know the pressure, and don't have that much experience playing as a team against a big South American, European (or, nowadays one has to add, Asian) team, it will be difficult.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 12:15:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
England are in Pot 1.

Before the dream group, let me consider the nightmare group.

England
Ivory Coast or Australia
Netherlands or Czech or Portugal
South Korea or USA

Why?

Ivory Coast are pretty good so far. We predict it every time, but they could be the African team to really make an impact.

Australia/USA... losing to them would just be too embarassing for us in the Anglosphere.

Netherlands/Czech/Portugal seem like the most dangerous Pot 3 teams.

South Korea are the Greece of Pot 4. Really could be a worry.

Perfect grouping

England
Paraguay
Croatia
Costa Rica

why? we have had a good chance against all these teams over the past few years...

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 07:07:44 AM EST
Don't say "Anglosphere", it's insulting.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 07:10:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Are you joking or are you dead serious?

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 07:23:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't know.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 07:30:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Is there a Spanish nickname for the English/British?
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 11:16:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hijo de la Gran Bretaña is a polite way to say Son of a bitch.

Britain is La Pérfida Albión (no less than perfidious, you see?).

Other than that, I can't think of anything specific to call a Briton. I think historically there hasn't been enough direct interaction. Maybe Kcurie can refresh my memory.

Let's see if I can say this without ROTFL... Gibraltar Español!

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 11:21:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
PUTA MADRE DE CABRON DE ANGLOSAJON !!!

What? Ssssh..?

Why, do we have to keep quiet in here?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 11:42:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Doesn't ring authentic.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 11:49:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In fact, it almost sounds like a compliment (Spanish is weird like that ;-)

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 11:50:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, of course, I meant it as one...

(no b-#-#-bashing here) :-)

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 11:55:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Knowing how to swear properly in another language is one of the last and most difficult things you learn (and I'd have lots more to learn in Spanish before I got there).
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 12:27:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I can highly recoommend Harrap's Rude Spanish. Not only it is accurate, but it is also hilarious (to the Spanish reader: the English reader will usually be left with a puzzled look). And it's only 5 quid!

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 12:31:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Come here please , the spanish class is gonna start.

A british person is a "guiri" or a foreigner in general sense. We do not normally use a specific word for british so we say "guiri ingles".

When we want to denigrate him we say

"mierda de guiri ingles" (shity english guiri)

when we want to show astonishment

"anda el hijo de puta de guiri" (what a son of a bith this english)

when we want to congratulate him

"que peazo de cabron el guiri este" (what a piece of bastard  this guiri)

when we want to feel him fine at home ,cheer him and make him our friend we say:

"vaya cabronazo de puta madre estas hecho, guiri" (what a fucking bastard of a great bitchy mother you are, foreigner)

I hope to have shown with these examples the subtlety of the spanish language.. learn the lesson and come back tomorrow for more...:)

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 02:19:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I say, thank you, old cabron!
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 03:09:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Cabronazo, eres un monstruo, la madre que te parió!

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 03:11:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"Pendejo" is from across the Atlantic, right?
by Alex in Toulouse on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 03:19:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
pinche huey, pendejo, chinga tu madre is Mexican.

There is really no such thing as "Spanish from across the Atlantic". There are at least five distinct regions in Latin America with respect to the Spanish they Speak.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 03:28:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Heeeeey, Chinga tu madre is an excellent one, I'll remember it!! It even feels Mexican.
by Alex in Toulouse on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 03:36:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
'Chinga tu madre' es padrísimo, huey

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 03:41:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Perfect grouping

England
Paraguay
Croatia
Costa Rica

Yeah, with the great Chilavert beyond his time, Paraguay is just not the same... or, are we overlooking new talents? :-)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 12:37:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm an England fan, I'm full of dark awareness about how wrong my prognostications will turn out to be...  :)

However, what little I have seen of Paraguay this year hasn't impressed. They did beat Argentian 1-0, but beyond that they were a bit vulnerable.

Besides, I had to leave Saudi Arabia free for Saturday and my personal hope is that this will be Africa's year and Cote D'Ivoire is my pick!

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 01:46:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm an England fan, I'm full of dark awareness about how wrong my prognostications will turn out to be...  :)

Heh... I publicly predicted in 2002 that this will be England's year, was even reinforced when that Rooney kid appeared, and then...

BTW, while England fans are less popular around here, the team is symphatetic! If only you'd get a stable good goalie!

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 02:19:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
England fans are less popular around here

Actually it's less negative and more complicated than I make it. Everyone fears the hooligans, but all the TV commentators (at least in Germany and Hungary) love how much England fans 'live' with the match - measured by crowd noise, much more active and attentively supportive than any other countries, including Brazil.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 02:24:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hehe, I have no illusions about England fans. When I was a photographer covering international matches I saw a lot of the dark sides, sometimes directed at me.

On the other hand, English fans certainly do generate a good atmosphere at the game and the dark side are a small minority...

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 03:33:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
One other strangeness for you.

My international affiliations come from the countries I lived in and loved.

Thus, in addition to England as the land of my birth, I end up rooting for the Netherlands and then for Germany!

One of the pictures of joy in my mind was being at the market in Bad Godesberg as Germany played a group game in 2002. They scored and the market erupted as the stallholders noticed it on their tiny portable TVs...

Truly a joyous moment for all of us who were there.

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 03:46:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There's nothing better for breaking one's psychological dependence on football that to spend 5 years in the US. I don't give a damn about La Liga any more (though I did stay up till 3 am to see Spain be robbed of a World Cup semifinal in 2002... grrr). I suppose I'll have to get a TV for next summer after all.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 01:50:14 PM EST
Interesting... My 5 years in the US didn't have quite the same effect. In fact, despite gaining a new appreciation for ice hockey, when I returned I was more interested in football than before.
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 02:12:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I lived in Toronto for 2 years, and also developed a taste for ice hockey. And there was all that Wayne Gretzky vs Mario Lemieux thing at the time.

As we were getting a lot of American channels too on TV, I also watched a bit of American Football. And that really got me closer to Rugby. I can't stand American Football! I've never seen a sport in which action lasts less than 5 seconds at a time, which in turn gives the TV channel time to slot in a beer commercial. Horrible.

by Alex in Toulouse on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 02:56:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hehhehee, always blame the referee :-)

Seriously, that referee was a big f*ckup. But what Spanish fans ignored was that he erred against the Koreans, too: IIRC at least two sure-fire-would-be-goals were called off-side erroneously on their side two, and I recall something about an unpunished brutality from the Spanish side.

Italy on the other hand had much less to blame on the referee, rather than itself - and the media circus whipped up instead of examining grave tactical (and strategic!) errors was despicable. That's why I want a re-match next year, and hope it'll end the same way...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 02:14:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The only reason why I can't ever vouch for Italy, is because all their players look like male fashion models. Long, sophisticated hair, sunglasses used like hair-holders, tan. That and their incredible ability to trip on blades of grass.
by Alex in Toulouse on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 02:50:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
incredible ability to trip on blades of grass.

:-))) That, and raising fouling on the level of an art. It's really a shame, because otherwise, most of the current Azzurros are extremely talented.

This must have something to do with the culture of the Italian league - on Champions League matches, I observed even the foreign players in Milan etc. adopting this arrogant style.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 02:58:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I fully agree with you, and the terrible part is that this behaviour is now practiced throughout Europe (but still at a much lesser level than in Italy).

As the saying goes: England invented football, Germany turned it into a profession, and Italy turned it into a movie.

One thing I don't like about modern footballers, is that they always argue, protest, raise their hand for foul foul foul he did it he did it nanee nanee poupou referee referee the throw in is for me. I mean just the other day I was watching Lille vs Villareal (soporific game). At some point, this defender is fighting off an attacking opponent near the side line, trying to clear the ball. The attacker manages to block the hall, which bounces up as a result, and hits the defender in the face (in the nose, you even see him reeling from it), and bounces off the guy's face and out of play. And surely enough, the defender's hand goes up and you see him protesting to the referee that he should have had the throw in. I mean, come on, the ball bounced off his nose, it must have hurt like hell, how can he deny it?

I don't like this cheater mentality that's been gaining ground in football. In the meantime cheating is slowly losing ground in rugby, thanks to video refereeing, better ethics, professionalisation etc.

by Alex in Toulouse on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 03:14:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Does anyone remember Raffarin's (France's prime minister back then) intervention on TV, during the 2002 world cup, after France's elimination?

"My fellow countrymen, it has been our honour to grant French nationality to the entire Senegalese team. All the necessary papers have been sent to them in Korea. We are therefore continuing the world cup under the colours red, green, and yellow."

Nah, it never happened, but a lot of people here supported Senegal after France had lost. Some TV anchorman on one of the main channels even wore a Senegal scarf a few times during the night news.

I'll support France by default, though only if they play well, but I have many other favourite teams (all the African ones, Costa Rica, Trinidad & Tobbago ...), due to my "always vouch for the underdog complex".

by Alex in Toulouse on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 02:44:10 PM EST
But I must admit I have a far stronger love of rugby.
by Alex in Toulouse on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 02:45:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We expect nothing less from Alex in Toulouse. I guess you'll walk over Edinburgh at the weekend. Perhaps all I have to look forward to is the Six Nations.
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 03:32:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Toulouse plays exactly like France. On a good day, they're unbeatable. On a bad day, on which players doubt, think too much etc, Toulouse is an average team. Well still above average.

Anyhow Edinburgh will be no walk over at all! Though since it'll be played here I'll be easier for Toulouse, and not only because of the climate (Toulouse doesn't always play well when the team has to go Mammouth-hunting in the Great North).

Webster is turning into an awesome player, and I loved the way that Scotland slammed the door shut in the 2nd half, against NZ a couple of weeks back.

I think this year's Six Nations is going to be wicked.

by Alex in Toulouse on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 03:44:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Of course, rugby tears my heart because I am part Welsh... Who to support, red or white?

argh

But, having lived in Australia my deepest feeling is Northern Hemisphere vs Southern...

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 03:48:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I totally agree about the Southern Hemisphere thing.
by Alex in Toulouse on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 03:55:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Red or white... Let's see now... Red? Yes, it's red that wins the draw!

(Just trying to quite duly influence you... ;))

Having lived in Oz makes you anti-Southern Hemisphere rugby?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 04:19:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, living in Oz put me off Southern Hemisphere rugby.

It's a complicated set of feelings to articulate. It may even really because in school I was a prop, rather than a fly-half... but I suspect it is about a cultural clash.

Are you surprised that living in Oz made me anti-SH rugby?

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 04:24:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, I was just seeking confirmation that that was what you meant.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 04:33:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh dear, does it make me sound terribly prejudiced?
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 04:34:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Not in the least. I haven't lived in the South, but I don't like their rugby and their attitudes, with the exception (sometimes) of the All Blacks. I was very pleased to see France, this autumn, beat both Australia and SA. (particularly the latter, which was quite an exploit).
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Dec 10th, 2005 at 01:49:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, I think every rugby person (myself included) has a soft spot for the All Blacks in some way. Recently I was put off them a bit because I was shown a video of what happened to BoD. That scared the living daylights out of me.
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Sat Dec 10th, 2005 at 03:46:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
:-))))

I support France foremost (by tradition: Les Bleus 1998/2000 is my Dream Team) with the same qualification.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 02:52:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm supporting France, but I don't know how they'll do. If they're good, they'll be very, very good, but if they're bad, they'll be dreadful.

Me too, though, I prefer rugby.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 03:15:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ahhh the rush of adrenaline that you get, say when France leads England by 2 points, 1 minute before the end of the last game of the Five/Six Nations ("le Crunch"), and England is in France's 22.

Losing to England in football is totally alright for me (in Football I don't really mind France losing, provided the other team plays well ... example: I was with some friends during the Euro 2004 playoff between France and Greece, and as soon as Greece won I ran up, grabbed a Demis Roussos CD, and played it), but losing to England in rugby is like being stabbed through the heart ten times and then dropped in the ocean with a 2-ton weight tied to your ankles. It's unbearable, traumatizing.

by Alex in Toulouse on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 03:26:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
losing to England in rugby is like being stabbed through the heart ten times and then dropped in the ocean with a 2-ton weight tied to your ankles.

I generally go through that at least twice a year (France and Wales). Then there are years like last year, yay hey hey!

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 03:41:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Aha, a Celt!

When France loses to Wales (like last year), it feels like winning. When Wales beats England, it feels like being at home watching a good movie. However I'll cheer for England against New Zealand, Australia, South Africa.

by Alex in Toulouse on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 03:51:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I've managed to become fairly Zen about France/Wales games. The best team wins, and in any case it's a side I support. But it took much practice to get there.

England/Australia I'd be neutral about. England/NZ I'm for the Blacks. Only England/SA would see me siding with England, and I'd lose sleep over the betrayal of it afterwards. (Supporting England, not being against SA).

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 04:13:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Here I am reporting in the frontlines of Spain....see this is the great thing of football I should be working and I am reporting the Spanish reaction life!!! This is why ET is so great!!!!

ET is more important than my work!

I will give the spanish updates.....

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 03:21:36 PM EST
ET is indeed more important than my work... Should I worry?

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 03:25:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No.. no problem as long as you relaized that it could be a problem in a parallel universe. Not here.

Actualy in a sense, ET is preparing us for our future work as pontificators ("tertualianos") or experts ("especialista") in the spanish media about Europe. It is actually a training....for our future job.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 03:30:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
How the mighty have fallen!

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 03:39:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Dodo will give the international perspective, here all the comments from Spain... Where are the people form around Europe reporting??? football is the only thing we have in common... I would love to hear the reactions...

And now the spanish report...

Before the drawing. Juanes!!! he was number one in the main hit lists in Spain... actually he is from Colombia but a good chunk of people in Spain think he is spanish..

Oh... what a moment.. so many memories of this last summer.. snifff..so wonderful...I can not provide a translation, the sound in the radio is very bad and I am still remembering...she was so...outerly engaged?

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 03:36:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
People asking here for a letter-group bigger than E

.. and the group of Spain is.....H
indeed

Leipzig our city!!! 14th June
Stuttgart and Kaiserlautern later on

A pleasure


I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 03:53:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Leipzig, the city of Bach...

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 04:08:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ivory Coast out of spanish way....going with Argentina.. great game!!!!

Paraguay also out..of Spain..the two most feared y the spanish coach are out..

And our first guest is......Togo, Australia or Tunez for Spain.. people asking for Togo!!!!!!

And the final result is..Tunez!!!! Present Africa champion

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 03:58:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Tough groups England and sweden tough group
Netherlands!!!!!... in the group of Argentina and Ivory Coast.. the DEATH GROUP from now on.

Portugal gets a good group....with Mexico

Ch. Republic with Italy.. another tough group...while Brasil gets an easy one.

Spain is gonna get another low-key memeber in the draw...lucky lucky day for Spain for the moment...

Spain gets...Ucraine!!!! we debute with Ukraine in Leipzig
Right now the group is a dream come true according to the media.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 04:05:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
France won't be able to communicate strategies during games, being in the presence of francophone/part-francophone countries.
by Alex in Toulouse on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 04:07:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There's always verlain.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 04:09:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Aha it's my turn, it's actually "verlan" (as the "s" in "l'envers" is silent, ver- and -lan are the only 2 syllables).

Verlain doesn't tell me much, altought it's almost the name of one of Charles Baudelaire's hardcore buddies, and a writer too (Paul Verlaine).

by Alex in Toulouse on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 04:14:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I knew I should have bought French Rude French on the way back from work today. (Check out the sample pages on PDF: they're hilarious).

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 04:20:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This book is full of seedy pub talk, I'm sure that's where the author learned the expressions he translates!
by Alex in Toulouse on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 04:33:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's called rude French. Seedy pub talk qualifies. Check out the rude Spanish sample pages.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 04:39:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I know I know, I was speculating! It makes sense, when I read the samples, to conclude that the guy decided to write a book on rudeness, but got drunk in seedy pubs every day for two weeks instead.
by Alex in Toulouse on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 04:43:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The samples are from the "rude accommodation", "rude drinking" and "rude food" chapters... It's a phrasebook for tourists, after all :-)

Sa caisse marche au sans-plomb et lui, il carbure au Whisky is classic.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 04:54:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Saturday will be jealous, you get Saudi Arabia!
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 04:12:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
really lucky spain.. everybody agrees. Not the easiest but one of the most.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 04:18:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Argentina group becomes teh death group .. and by far
Inaugural match for Germany is Costa Rica. 9th June.. Germany has not a very tough group.

Italy Ghana US and Ch rep. also tough...

Spain gets in with Tunisia, Ukraine and Saudi Arabia.

Spain should get to the next round...unless something very weird happens....First day wil be key against Ukraine...

The most probable outcome for the next round is a match agains switzerland...

People in Spain are very happy with the result....we are headed for another defeat in quarter-finals.

A pleasure


I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 04:15:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I will update the frontpage part of the original post with the draws, if no one else does. (I hope I won't get in the way for Saturday, if he is lurking around now?)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 03:27:04 PM EST
no, you didn't. After yesterday morning, I did not have time to post. And I watched the drawing at a freind's place where I also could not post.

Thank you DoDo for updating!

Did you watch the whole show? - I can't believe how incompetent Heidi Klum was at co-moderating the show. She sure is beautiful, but they should have chosen someone who can at least talk.

For my part, I liked Horst Eckel, Germany's 1954 champion, most:

Eckel: "We would not have succeeded without our good comradeship."

Beckmann: "That sounds like something that we call Teamgeist today."

Eckel: "Yes, comradeship and Teamgeist."

LOL!!!

by Saturday (geckes(at)gmx.net) on Sat Dec 10th, 2005 at 12:39:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Which teams will advance?

My projections:

Group A: 1. Poland, 2. Germany
Group B: 1. Sweden, 2. England
Group C: 1. Argentine, 2. Netherlands
Group D: 1. Mexico, 2. Portugal
Group E: 1. Czech Republic, 2. USA
Group F: 1. Brazil, 2. Croatia
Group G: 1. Switzerland, 2. South Korea
Group H: 1. Ukraine, 2. Spain

France and Italy are the first prominent European victims. More will follow...

2nd round:

Poland beats England (penalty shootout...)
Argentine beats Portugal
Germany beats Sweden (completely undeserved)
Netherlands beat Mexico (fouriously)
Croatia beats the Czech Republic (due to its robust play)
Spain beats Switzerland
Brazil beats USA
South Korea beats Ukraine

Quarter Finals

Poland beats Argentine (amazing!)
Croatia beats Spain (due to Spanish hubris after unexpected success)
Germany beats Netherlands (sorry Holland everything's over... ;-)
Brazil beats South Korea (a real beating. Brazil now is supposed to be the sure winner)

Semi Final

Croatia beats Poland (playing an ugly catenaccio)
Brazil beats Germany (1-1 after 90 min. 3-1 after extra time)

Small Final

Poland beats Germany (disentchanted Germans don't care any more, Poland celebrates)

Final

Croatia beats Brazil (for no South American team can ever win a championship in Europe. Klasnic plays the match of his life and scores a hattrick).

by Saturday (geckes(at)gmx.net) on Sat Dec 10th, 2005 at 01:25:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Croatia beats Spain (due to Spanish hubris after unexpected success)
What are you talking about? beating Switzerland and advancing to the quarterfinals are both expected. Beating Croatia or advancing to the semifinals would be an unexpected success...

Unless you're talking about being 1-0 up and conceding two goals in the last couple of minutes.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Dec 10th, 2005 at 06:51:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh sorry, I meant no offense.

I remembered wrongly that Spain was often kicked out of the tournament in the 2nd round. In fact, they mostly lost in the Quarterfinals. I just looked it up:

2002 Quarterfinals
1998 1st Round
1994 Quarterfinals
1990 2nd Round
1986 Quarterfinals

So, I had better said something like "due to Spanish Quarterfinal-psychosis..." ;-)

by Saturday (geckes(at)gmx.net) on Sat Dec 10th, 2005 at 08:27:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Did I sound offended? My apologies.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Dec 11th, 2005 at 09:15:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
just wasn't sure...
by Saturday (geckes(at)gmx.net) on Sun Dec 11th, 2005 at 11:53:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What about Brazil in Sweeden in 58?

If you want me to go back to the place I was born , tell your corporations to leave my country (Leon Gieco)
by cruz del sur (chenicodk@sbcglobal.net) on Sun Dec 11th, 2005 at 12:11:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
ups. How could I forget?
by Saturday (geckes(at)gmx.net) on Sun Dec 11th, 2005 at 12:32:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
To be honest I hadf also forgoten, but just happened to be mentioned in an article I read after I saw this post.

But hey, there we come again.

And this time it will be Argentina :-)

If you want me to go back to the place I was born , tell your corporations to leave my country (Leon Gieco)

by cruz del sur (chenicodk@sbcglobal.net) on Mon Dec 12th, 2005 at 11:24:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
:-)))

BTW, I was neither born in nor live in Germany, but gained a hate for "Neudeutsch" (i.e. excessive use of adopted or created anglicisms that often don't make much sense even to English people)...

I can't believe how incompetent Heidi Klum was at co-moderating the show.

Yeah, she is annoyingly dumb, not reinforcing but going beyond the stereotype for nice women! I already noticed that when she was a guest of Gottschalk in "Wetten, dass..." - fortunately, I only saw the end of the show part yesterday :-)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sat Dec 10th, 2005 at 01:50:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Neudeutsch

I still can not bring myself to call a cell phone (or mobile phone) "handy". It is one of the most ridiculous German "anglicisms" ever. But everybody seems to use it. But, on the other hand, I go out to "dates", I activate my "account" when I turn on my computer at work and I go "jogging" (although much too infrequently...). I don't mind anglicisms, as long as they are not completely stupid.

Heidi Klum

She was an embarrassement. There are many women who could have done a good co-moderation and who are also actually know something about football. She is obviously not a bit interested in football. She was the mother of all women-and-football-stereotypes. If I were a woman, I would want to kill her..

by Saturday (geckes(at)gmx.net) on Sat Dec 10th, 2005 at 03:43:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The only person worth watching was Heidi Klum because she actually delivered a rebel message of women rights to the world. Certainly Heidi must have been fully aware that most of the 300 million tv viewers wouldn't understand German or English and thus packaged the message mostly in non - verbal content. It worked astoundingly well and cleverly slipped through most of the world's state dictatorial tv networks. Only the Iranians stopped the live broadcast and later re-played a 'cleansed' version of the show after having cut her out. Well done, Heidi, Iraqi and Saudi women will be very thankfull for your personal courage!

PS. I don't know whether the show was censored in the US. Any news about what happened in Kansas?

"The USA appears destined by fate to plague America with misery in the name of liberty." Simon Bolivar, Caracas, 1819

by Ritter on Sat Dec 10th, 2005 at 04:42:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sorry, now I want to know what Heidi Klum actually did, expressed less cryptically.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Dec 10th, 2005 at 06:53:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Heidi is from the Rhineland which is renowned for its rebelious anti-authoritarian and anti-clerical carneval festivities and peoples very liberal interpersonal behaviour. Like most top models from the Düsseldorf area she spent alot of her after school free time in places like the Punk Kneipe 'Ratinger Hof' (Tote Hosen, DAF, Stiff Little Fingers, Slime) where she learned all the Provo activists' tricks of how best to shock the establishment. Heidi built on these experiences and has now a well established rebel image because of her also very successful fight which brought down the Heroin Addict Chic fashion culture. Infact she has always been a front runner for the women rights campaign to be allowed to smile in public and behave like normal human beings. So, it was only obvious that her presence at last week's WC draw was (justly) perceived by the reactionary religious right as a provocation. And so it was. Heidi wore an outrageous costume with an 'immorally' deep cut decoltee, snobbed the German football team captain Ballack on stage ("A football is more interesting than he is."), took his football, threw it in the air and hammered the ball with a forcefull kick of her right stilletto - killer - shoe into the cheering crowds and finally managed to lead (according to Serb 'Blic' newspaper) Serbia-Herzegowina right into hell. Heidi performed all these courageous acts of anti-clerical resistance against the New Talibans in Iran, Saudi Arabia and the US with a genuinely smiling face. In Iran she was censored, cut out of the broadcast. But it will not help much - underground videos of the whole show will be soon sold clandestinely on Teheran university campus and be watched by the women in Iran and Afghanistan. Iran has pretty well developed and functioning alternative media culture networks, so the message will eventually get out. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said about vast chunks of US fly - over - country, which is still in the firm grip of the religious right. Any news from Kansas? Was the WC draw broadcast there at all?

"The USA appears destined by fate to plague America with misery in the name of liberty." Simon Bolivar, Caracas, 1819
by Ritter on Sun Dec 11th, 2005 at 07:10:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Wow, never thought of it this way! Could you also decode the feminist message in this exchange with Köhler, too? ;-)

,,Herr Bundespräsident, die ganze Welt schaut auf Deutschland. Was bedeutet das?"
,,Ja, daß die ganze Welt auf uns schaut."
,,Mir zittern auch schon die Knie, wenn ich denke, daß die Welt auf uns schaut..."
,,Und die ganze Welt schaut auf uns."


*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sun Dec 11th, 2005 at 08:51:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Kohler has the eloquence of a computer program. He just parrots back Heidi's questions as answers.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Dec 11th, 2005 at 09:14:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The questions Heidi poses are not so much an expression of traditional feminist thinking but more of a demonstration that she has already assumed a committed warriors position to both fend and overcome the onslaught of a mass audience within the hall (7000) and the ones who are out there before the tv sets (300 million). Quite correctly she tells us that she is on the brink to shift the focus of her awareness from the current state of perception (the dialogue with Köhler) which is seated in  concrete 'day-to-day-reality' to the much riskier and even life threatening level of confrontation with the global audience. The shaking knees symptom remind a warrior of this imminent shift, because of the immense energy needed to accomplish this act. Heidi however understands the she - being a woman - can switch into the higher band of awareness quite automatically. What she does with her questions is testing Köhler on his warrior preparedness. She wants to understand if he is ready for the imminent onslaught, if he is ready to swiftly assume the warrior position. He fails.

Bt.: Howard Dean would have 'digged' the questions. And so would Gerhard Schröder. Both have the capacity to play the crowds. Both have read their Keruac and Castaneda in their youth and have since then internalised it. The big difference between them? They had to learn it. Heidi did not, she just does it.

And Köhler didn't even have the faintest idea what she was talking about.

"The USA appears destined by fate to plague America with misery in the name of liberty." Simon Bolivar, Caracas, 1819

by Ritter on Sun Dec 11th, 2005 at 10:33:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And Köhler didn't even have the faintest idea what she was talking about.

;-)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sun Dec 11th, 2005 at 11:09:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
To add to my earlier comments about my split loyalties, we have England vs Sweden in the last game. Sven Goran Eriksson must feel torn.
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 04:02:25 PM EST
England get Trinidad and Tobago! A real grudge match for the Trini players who mostly play in the English Leagues... A hard game in prospect I think.
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 04:10:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Group C ... the group de la muerte
by Alex in Toulouse on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 04:06:23 PM EST
Definitely...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 04:15:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Absolutely... very good games to follow....

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 05:08:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I nominate Group E for the Gruppe des Todes, with Italy, the US, and the Czech Republic

"It's not time to go... it's Go Time!" My wife, 2004
by bornflippy on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 04:13:43 PM EST
I agree that it is a hard, hard group. But my gut feeling is that Argentian, Netherlands and Cote D'Ivoire is worse.
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 04:19:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I also bet that forced into such a corner, Serbia & Montenegro will fight like hell too. (In this region, the mood factor is a very big factor.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 04:26:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Brazil again got it easy - and I'd like to see all three its opponents advance...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 04:18:44 PM EST
The interesting feature of that group, who do you predict for 2nd place?
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 04:20:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
My tips:

A: Germany, Poland
B: England, Sweden
C: I won't even attempt to guess...
D: Mexico, Iran
E: Ghana, Czech Republic (took my wildcard...)
F: Brazil, Japan
G: France, South Korea
H: Spain, Tunisia

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 04:23:19 PM EST
Please, please! Tips please! Let me be not the only one with eggs on my face in seven months!

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 04:28:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hehe

Not many disagreements...

Group C I'll pick Cotte D'Ivoire and the Netherlands

D : Portugal, Mexico

E : Italy, Czech

F : Brazil, Australia (the Guus Hiddink factor)

G : France, Togo (just to be different)

others the same...

although to bait Kcurie..

H : Tunisia, Ukraine...   ;-)  joking!

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 04:31:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
F : Brazil, Australia (the Guus Hiddink factor)

Now that you say it... but, Japan-Australia, that would be an outcome... (wakes up)

G : France, Togo (just to be different)

HEY, you want to spoil my Italy-South Korea rematch?... ;-)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 04:35:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

A) Germany , Costa Rica
B) England , Sweden
C) Ivory Coast , Argentina
D) Portugal , Mexico
E) Czech , Italy
F) Brazil , Japan
G) Swiss , South Korea
H) Tunisia , Spain
by Alex in Toulouse on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 04:40:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
On the other hand, the Koreans having got DICK as trainer (man, what level of hate that guy got from Oranje fans at the Eurocup - and how deservedly) is no positive sign at all.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 04:40:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I see the loss of Hiddink as a big minus for SK. He has real tactical nous. Dick on the other hand....
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 04:41:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
These Koreans will chop us French to bits, and chase us untiredly for 240 minutes, right up to our hotel rooms after the match.

I think these guys don't even need a manager, for them every football match is like defending ten generations of ancestors.

by Alex in Toulouse on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 04:46:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, their team ethic is pretty special it's true. But Zizou is back, non?
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 04:47:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Zizou will have had his knees changed into Korean noodles by the time South Korea are finished with him.

South Koreans all have to master taekwondo during their military service. Hell they even eat dogs, they'll stop at nothing.

France is doomed.

by Alex in Toulouse on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 04:54:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, I am sure my Korean friends would love to agree, but will not be so optimistic either... ;)
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 04:58:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
South Korean athletes can invoke optimism at will. Have you ever seen Park play for Manchester United? That man lasts longer than the Duracell rabbit.

(wink to your Korean friends, I'm actually just enjoying a tiny bout of caustic humour! I know from the few South Koreans I've known that they are far more "western" than people think they are, unlike, say, Japanese people who are more constrained to a fitting stereotype).

by Alex in Toulouse on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 05:05:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
oh, I know, I was jsut trying to be optimistic on your behalf!
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 05:13:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm overplaying the pessimism myself :))

I think we can answer the Korean chop with a good guillotine, counter any taekwondo with a good spear tackle, and wear ear wax to remain indifferent to all their name-calling during the match ;))))

by Alex in Toulouse on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 05:18:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Alex in Busan writes:

Ahn Jung-hwan will have had his feet changed into French baguettes by the time France are finished with him.

Frenchmen all have to master rugby during their school years. Hell they even eat frogs, they'll stop at nothing.

Korea is doomed.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 05:05:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hehehe very good one DoDo!!

France played South Korea a few days before the beginning of the 2002 World Cup. Zizou left the game injured (his kneeds had turned into Italian spaghetti, I suspect foreign involvement). Boy could these South Koreans run, tackle.

by Alex in Toulouse on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 05:10:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree!
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 05:13:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
BTW, what's up with Ahn?

I saw his first match back in Europe on TV - this year's Round 1 match between Metz and PSG, a match Metz lost 4:1, but that 1 was a brilliant goal Ahn (who was only a replacement). But I see Metz at the end of the French table.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 05:13:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I noticed that Metz had a South Korean player, but I'm not very good with Korean names. I guess it's Ahn, then. Metz is having a lousy year, so I had wondered, when I noticed Ahn, why a Korean player would want to play for them, unless he was an average player.
by Alex in Toulouse on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 05:16:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Nah, S Korea isn't going to do very well. Without Hiddink, without home field advantage, without the most generous reffing I've seen in a while, playing in Europe - it'll be tough for them.
by Ben P (wbp@u.washington.edu) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 05:01:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh.. Spain, Spain....

where can we take a pint to see it happening..? it would be really fun to lose against Tunisia.. really fun...

In any case, we can always bait each other in quarter-finals watching the Spanish team lose against...whoever.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 04:57:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
More likely England will lose to Sweden and Paraguay and I will have nothing more to say...  ;-)
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 05:00:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
i will try to watch it in the national pub of the anglosaxon community (it is an irish , british scottish pub.. well maybe not and it is jut that I do not know how to get the different).

if you are coming to Barcelona.. make me know!!!! i will try to be in my home city at that time.. I want to see your face losing...:)

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 05:12:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
hehe, well I have just as much experience of losing as anyone I think. My first team is Doncaster Rovers, who were in Division Two, but then the owner tried to burn down the stadium for insurance and we dropped to Division  Five. We only now recover back Division Three...

Thus I am not afraid of my face being watched at the time.

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 05:16:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
OK.. I can join your pain soon.

I have checked it and we will lose against Brasil in QF.... see you then!!!! :)

A leasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 05:46:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Just wait for the ultra football supporters from Spain to start talking about eslavos, moros and terrorists.  

(I'm not kidding: I know otherwise reasonable madrileños who call Real Sociedad players and fans etarras)

Maybe there's a way to tie this back to WaB's thread on the benefits of sports?

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 05:03:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
hehe... is there such a thing as a reasonable madrileno?
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 05:12:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, in Madrid there is a lot of people from around Spain not born in Madrid who live in Madrid. They are really nice:)

Actually madrid has two very different groups of youth (and more).. one is one of the most funny, enjoying and cosmopolitan you can imagine.. I have some friend there, they are great.

on the other hand there is a bunch of -I-have-plenty-of-money-and you-do not-know-what -power-is... kool-aid  young right wingers...Migeru was thinking about them... their vocabulary is contagious...

I can also well imagine that the joke about our group will be soon around.. Spain against eslavos, moros and terrorists...

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 05:16:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I even met one or two reasonable types when I visited Madrid, obviously they were from elsehere... ;)
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 05:21:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You're talking to one, assuming I am reasonable. I was born in Madrid, but not so my parents. Very few people in Madrid have both parents from Madrid.

One of the sad ironies about Madrid is that it refused to capitulate to the Fascists after a 2 1/2 year siege, but now it is squarely zona nacional. How sad, how very sad.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 05:20:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
as noted in my other comment I was trying not to be too serious...

in that vein...

you, reasonable? But you're a socialist from sclerotic Europe, whereas I am a <strike>good neocon</strike> <strike>Anglo-Saxon</strike> <strike>patriotic</strike> person from England, how can I call you reasonable?

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 05:28:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Don't call me a socialist: I'm an armchair anarchist.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 05:29:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You too?

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 05:39:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Like I said on another thread, tanto monta, monta tanto, Madrid como Barcelona.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 05:41:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It really bothers me, too, I have been quite fond of Real Sociedad since the time of Arconada.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 05:59:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, such hostility always stumps me...
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 06:06:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A: Poland and Germany
B: England and Trinidad & Tobago
C: Netherlands and Serbia & Montenegro
D: Portugal and Mexico
E: Italy and Czech Republic
F: Brazil and Croatia
G: France and South Korea
H: Spain and Ukraine

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 05:49:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Wasn't around for the draws (was watching the last episodes of "Desperate Housewifes" on DVD, but I'll jump in here...

Group A: Germany, Poland,
Group B: England, Sweden
Group C: Argentine, The Netherlands
Group D: Mexico, Portugal
Group E: Italy, Czech Republic
Group F: Brazil, Japan
Group G: France, South Korea
Group H: Spain, Ukraine

That's actually 5 non-European teams out of 16, which is a lot. Expect at most two in the quarter finals (Brazil, Argentina), and then it's open.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 05:36:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
England, France, Germany, and Spain have all drawn fairly weak groups, which should seriously improve their chances - not only to make the second round, but to win the whole thing. My guess is the winner will be one of these 4 teams, even though Brazil is the best side overall.

South American teams just don't win in Europe, especially in Northern European countries. I'd fancy the Netherlands, too, but they got a really, really hard group. Maybe Italy, but damn, I hate Italy. Almost as much as Argentina.

Ben P

by Ben P (wbp@u.washington.edu) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 05:37:38 PM EST
Spain???  :)

Spain always loses in QF always.

In this world cup it will be against Brasil...

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 05:42:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yeah, but that can't last forever. Spain has the talent. They just need luck.

Ben P

by Ben P (wbp@u.washington.edu) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 05:44:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Spain cannot have luck in fotball. It goes agains all odds.

We have been succesful in the last two decades precisely becuase, in compenstaion , we can never win anything in our national sport. One thing goes with the other. It is called cosmic justice balance.

If we ever win the world cup our economy will crumble and we would start going out to bars and discos at 22:00pm instead of the present healthy 01:00 am.

Besides our kool-aid right-wingers wold be unbearable.. so QF is OK ;)

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 05:51:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Dead on about the wingnuts...

Just remember the mileage Franco got out of beating the godless Russians in the European Cup final way back in the 1950's.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 05:53:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You never know, I think the old geographical rules are breaking down.
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 05:42:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
the old geographical rules are breaking down
Quite right! Spain has a Prime Minister from Castilla-Leon who is an FC Barcelona supporter.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 05:54:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Qualifiers:

Germany, Poland
England, Sweden
Argentina, Netherlands
Angola, Portugal
Italy, Czech Republic
Brazil, Japan
France, Switzerland
Spain, Saudi Arabia

by Ben P (wbp@u.washington.edu) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 05:55:03 PM EST
Group C is so incredibly tough-

though the Netherlands did beat the Yugoslavia side 8-1 or something in the euro2000 QF.

Cote d'Ivore is pretty good, but I don't see them winning from a good Dutch side- and Argentina is always tough, esp. with Messi on a roll. But we beat Argentina in '98, and can do so again.

BTW, there are four dutch coaches in the WC-
Netherlands- van Basten (won EC '88 as a player)

Trinidad & Tobago- Beenhakker (came when they had one point out 6 games and still qualified- extremely experienced)

South Korea- Advocaat- led Netherlands to QF in '94 (in which they were generally acknowledged to be the best side in the tournament) only to lose on a keepers blunder and to the SF in 2004 despite the most hostile press ever after a bad, bad substitution.

Australia- Hiddink qualified with them for the first time in 30 years with a bit of luck- on penalties. Won EC1 cup in '88 with PSV, semis championsleague last year, semis WC '98 (lost on penalties from brazil)

by koenzel (koen@vanschie.net) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 09:45:01 PM EST
This is the offense I would like to see in Argentina: Tevez Messi and Saviola. Together with Riquelme and young Aguero, they would be hard to stop. Our weaknes is defense and the goal keeper is not so good.  

If you want me to go back to the place I was born , tell your corporations to leave my country (Leon Gieco)
by cruz del sur (chenicodk@sbcglobal.net) on Sat Dec 10th, 2005 at 04:27:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]


Display:
Go to: [ European Tribune Homepage : Top of page : Top of comments ]