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Srebrenica - 10 Years Later

by soj Sat Jul 2nd, 2005 at 12:03:36 PM EST

I've been asked several times to write a longer post about the war in Serbia, Kosovo and Bosnia. To do so however would require me to write a book-length article.

As the 10th anniversary of the incidents surrounding Srebrenica will fall next week, I thought it would be a better use of my time to focus on that single event. It must be understood that the fall of Srebrenica and the subsequent events that took place were in the context of a larger civil war, which I will do my best to include in context.


I did not fight in this war and I am not an eyewitness to the events. I am writing this after analyzing the data, investigations and reports of other people and groups. The incidents after the fall of Srebrenica are highly contentious to this day, and much of what I say is likely to inflame the passions of those who have different interpretations.

In 1991, a country called the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (SFRY) consisted of six republics and two provinces.

Four of the six republics were Croatia, Macedonia, Slovenia and Bosnia and Herzegovina. These four republics are now sovereign countries with the same name. For the record, "Bosnia and Herzegovina" is the full name of that country, but from hereafter I will refer to it simple as "Bosnia".

The other two republics were Serbia and Montenegro, which are now part of the same country, officially referred to as "Serbia and Montenegro". The two provinces were both within Serbia, one is Kosovo and the other is Vojvodina. Kosovo today is technically still within the jurisdiction of Serbia but is a de facto independent entity and is administrated by a domestic government under the supervision and command of the United Nations.

In 1991, both Slovenia and Croatia declared their independence from SFRY and this began the civil war. Bosnia declared its independence in 1992. The civil wars in Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia ended in 1995 with the signing of the Dayton Agreement.

The incidents in question, following the occupation of Srebrenica, occurred in July of 1995, when the civil war was still ongoing.

Bosnia today (full-size map here) is split into two separate political entities - one is the "Federation of Bosnia & Herzegovina" and the second is "Republika Srpska". The government of the federation is half Croat half Bosniak while that of Republia Srpska is Serbian. Bosnia has a United Nations appointed overseer, who is the de facto head of state.

Acronyms and Terms

Serb - Refers to an ethnicity as well as the government and forces of the Republic of Serbia
Croat/Croatian - Refers to an ethnicity as well as the government and forces of the Republic of Croatia as well as forces in Bosnia
Bosniak - Refers to an ethnicity in Bosnia which is largely Muslim by religion, it also refers to the Muslim government and forces of Bosnia as opposed to the Croat forces of Bosnia
HVO - The Croat military forces of Bosnia
VRS - The Serb military forces of Bosnia, i.e. from Republika Srpska
ABiH - The Bosniak military forces of Bosnia, sometimes referred to as "BiH"
HV - The Croat military forces of Croatia
VJ - The military forces of SFTY, commanded by Serbs

It's worth noting here that the language spoken in SFTY was officially called "Serbo-Croatian". Today there are distinctions made between "Serbian", "Croatian" and "Bosniak" but they are very minor and all three groups essentially speak the same language and can understand one another.

Srebrenica

There are very few facts about what happened, and even fewer which are (mostly) uncontested. Therefore let me list them:

  1. In 1993, the United Nations declared the city of Srebrenica and its environs a "safe area" or "safe haven" for civilians and the area was supposed to be demilitarized
  2. The area however was not demilitarized, and ABiH forces (28th Infantry division) under the command of Naser Oric were based inside the Srebrenica "safe area"
  3. A detachment of UN peacekeepers, almost all of them Dutch, were based in Srebrenica to protect the "safe area"
  4. On July 11, 1995, a small detachment of VRS forces (400 men and 5 tanks) arrived in Srebrenica and took over the town without military resistance from either ABiH or the Dutch peacekeepers
  5. Upon the occupation of the town, no ABiH forces were present
  6. Several thousand residents, including men, women and children were removed from the area by bus. This was down at the insistance of the VRS but with cooperation by the Dutch peacekeepers
  7. A group of several thousand men decided to independently (and against Dutch advice) leave the area on foot, heading north
  8. At no time was anyone massacred, killed, raped, attacked, beaten or anything else inside the city of Srebrenica
The Srebrenica Genocide/Massacre

The genocide/massacre refers to men from Srebrenica, not to any incident that occurred in that city.

There are two separate chain of events that occurred following the VRS occupation of Srebrenica and they need to be tracked separately.

Potocari Victims

As the VRS forces made their way to Srebrenica, a large number of Bosniak civilians made their way to the nearby town of Potocari, which was home to a larger UN base. VRS units separated a small number of men from this group and the rest were put on buses and sent to ABiH-controlled territory.

One allegation is that the men separated from this group at Potocari were then taken somewhere close by and massacred.

There are separate allegations that some men were permitted to board the buses at Potocari but were stopped at different checkpoints inside Republika Srpska and groups of men were removed, a total of five or six different groups removed at five or six different checkpoints. These groups were then allegedly massacred at different areas by different VRS units.

The vast majority of massacre/genocide allegations refers to this group of men, not the "northern column" group.

Northern Column

The majority of the men in the Srebrenica area however "formed a column" and headed north on foot to attempt to make their way behind ABiH lines before VRS forces occupied the town. It is unknown what percentage of these men were active members of the ABiH. The 28th Infantry Division, which had been based in Srebrenica, was entirely absent when VRS forces arrived, therefore this northern column contained most if not all of the 28th ABiH infantry.

There are allegations that VRS forces attacked this column, killing thousands. There are allegations that some people in the column who surrendered were later executed. At least 5,000 men in this column successfully made it to ABiH controlled territory however.

Included in this column were young men who were non-combatants. There are allegations that adult civilian male Bosniaks were in this column as well, although again it was largely members of the ABiH 28th infantry division. There are reports by Dutch peacekeepers that members of the column were armed, including with anti-tank weapons.

Sometimes this column is referred to as men "fleeing" from combat. Other times it is referred to as men making their way to ABiH-controlled territory to regroup with the larger ABiH military. The ICTY prosecution quite clearly states that most of the 28th division was in this column.

There are also credible reports that there was some inter-factional fighting going on between men in the ABiH column which led to members killing each other. The number of ABiH killing ABiH is reported to be in the low hundreds. The source of this contention will be explored more in-depth below.

There is only some evidence that the men who were killed in the "northern column" were massacred. It seems likely that the men who did not survive were primarily killed in "ordinary" warfare with VRS units.

According to the official Dutch government report:
A large number of the men were members of the Bosnian Muslim army (ABiH) who had attempted to break out of the enclave to Tuzla with some of the male population during the night of 11 July. The decision to break out and thus to give up further resistance was taken entirely outside the UN and UNPROFOR.
Bosniak Violations of Srebrenica Safe Area

Despite the 1993 designation of Srebrenica as a "safe area" and demilitarized zone, there is substantial documentation that the 28th Infantry division of the ABiH conducted military operations in the area for two years. From the official Dutch government report:
The supposed demilitarisation in the enclave was virtually a dead letter. The Bosnian army (ABiH) followed a deliberate strategy of using limited military actions to tie up a relatively large part of the manpower of the Bosnian Serbian army (VRS) to prevent it from heading in full force for the main area around Sarajevo. This was also done from the Srebrenica enclave. ABiH troops had no qualms about breaking all the rules in skirmishes with the VRS. They provoked fire by the Bosnian Serbs and then sought cover with a Dutchbat unit which then ran the risk of being caught between two fires.
The commander of the ABiH forces in the area was Naser Oric. The forces under Oric conducted numerous raids against Serbian villages in the area, killing between 1300 and 2000 civilians. One night in particular, January 7, 1993, (Christmas Day for Serbs), the town of Kravica was raided and hundreds of Serbs were killed and houses were systematically looted.

Oric has publically stated numerous times that he conducted these operations. His forces also videotaped their acts and Oric has provided copies to the western press, including the Toronto Star and the Washington Post.

The raids conducted by Oric were designed to terrorize the local Serb population and by July 1995, the vast majority had fled. Less than 900 Serbs remained in the Srebrenica area out of a former population of 9,300. In the nearby Bratunac area, 6,000 Serbs had fled from a former population of 13,500.

For two years, the ABiH forces used the Srebrenica "safe area" to launch attacks (almost always at night) and then would retreat behind the lines, preventing VRS forces from engaging them.

Military Significance of Srebrenica

Prior to the war, Srebrenica was home to a large concentration of Bosniaks. In 1995, Bosniak forces controlled a line that ran roughly from Sarajevo to Tuzla. Srebrenica, and the area around Zvornik, were two "front line" areas, inside Republika Srpska, and close to the SFRY border.

If the VRS could remove ABiH forces in these two areas, they would secure their "rear" lines and solidify the control over Republika Srpska. If the Bosniaks could kill or drive away the majority of the Serbs in the area, it would help the ABiH control a contiguous area. It must be remembered here that both ABiH and VRS were fighting to control all of Bosnia - the partitioned state in existance now was the result of the Dayton Agreement compromises.

As the ICTY sentencing judge Almiro Rodrigues stated:
Srebrenica is located in a part of eastern Bosnia, central Podrinje, which was of particular interest to both parties involved. To the Bosnian Muslims because the town was predominantly Muslim before the conflict; because it is located between Tuzla to the north and Zepa to the south both of which were under Muslim control; because the fall of Srebrenica could have extremely negative consequences for Sarajevo under siege at the time. To the Bosnian Serbs because the region known as central Podrinje was in that part of Bosnia bordering Serbia and because it was important to establish the continuity, in Bosnia like in neighbouring Serbia, of the territories under Serbian control; and, of course, for the opposite reasons of those of the Bosnian Muslims.
Wider War

The VRS occupation of Srebrenica, along with the allegations of massacres/genocide, had two direct consequences. The first was that it solidified NATO support of the Bosniak government (under the leadership of Alija Izetbegovic) and subsequent air and artillery strikes in support of ABiH offensives.

Secondly, the VRS occupation of Srebrenica, along with the allegations of massacres/genocide, led to the greenlighting of Operation Storm on August 4, 1995.

Inside the Republic of Croatia, the predominately Serb area of Krajina formed its own government and military forces, under the title Republika Srpska Krajina. Operation Storm of the HV (Croatian military), drove out 150,000 to 200,000 ethnic Serbs from the area, the vast majority of them civilians. It is uncontestedly the largest incident of ethnic cleansing that occurred during these wars.

There is credible evidence that between 715 and 1,542 civilian Serbs were killed during Operation Storm, including during the shelling of a refugee column. Currently there is only one major Croatian official being charged by the International Court Tribunal for Former Yugoslavia (ICTY) and that is General Ante Govina.

It is also conclusive that the United States military not only authorized Operation Storm but provided tactical support and intelligence for this operation (via a private contracting company). HV forces, after driving the Serbs out of Krajina, combined with HVO forces to fight the VRS.

I might add here that Operation Storm garnered a lot of international criticism, which was largely deflected by the reports of the massacres/genocide in Srebrenica. With increased NATO help, Bosniak forces overran much of the VRS and put enormous pressure on the Serb leadership to accept the Dayton compromise shortly thereafter.

Furthermore, NATO politicians in 1999 urged the support of the War On Serbia by saying they did not want "another Srebrenica" to occur in Kosovo. The Srebrenica massacres/genocide have been the single largest emotional "trump" card in justifying military action against Serb forces in both the civil wars and the 1999 invasion of Serbia, and is the single most remembered or highlighted incident of all of those wars.

It is also referred to quite often as the "single worst incident of genocide since World War 2" in Europe.

The Srebrenica Massacres Become Genocide

The very first person convicted of the crime of genocide by the ICTY was Radislav Krtic on August 2, 2001. He was convicted and sentenced to 46 years imprisonment for three reasons:
  • There were massacres of unarmed men, whose bodies had been located in several different graves in differing areas, and their sum deaths was determined to be genocide. The genocide was not pre-determined or planned. The number of dead were estimated to be between 7000 and 8000 although forensic evidence had not conclusively identified more than a few hundred;
  • General Krtic was the deputy commander of the Drina Corps of the VRS. The Drina Corps oversaw the evacuation of civilians from Potocari. Although Krstic was determined not to have been in Potocari or the locations where massacres took place, as commander he was responsible for their actions. Paragraph 150 of the judgement against him reads, "it was unnecessary for the Trial Chamber to conclude that Radislav Krstic was actually aware that those other criminal acts were being committed; it was sufficient that their occurrence was foreseeable to him and that those other crimes did in fact occur"; and
  • Testimony by Private Drazen Erdemovic, a member of the 10th Sabotage Group of the VRS, who admitted participation in two separate massacres of unarmed Bosniaks
After this point, the incidents following the occupation of Srebrenica have officially been condemned as "genocide".

Mass Graves and Physical Evidence

There are numerous problems with the mass graves, the existance of which either prove or disprove that a massacre took place.

One of the biggest problems is that the majority of the corpses discovered so far have not been identified. This is partly due to a lack of funding, and partly because of the slow pace of forensic science. Many of the exhumed bodies have been transferred to a holding area in Bosnia and are awaiting identification today through DNA comparisons with relatives of missing people.

This leads to the possibility that some of the corpses in graves that have been discovered may have died in conflicts other than the those related to Srebrenica, may be from an older (or later) date, or may be Serbs or other ethnicities. Furthermore, many of the graves contained "disarticulated" body parts, which is a fancy way to say they were dug up from elsewhere and reburied in the second (or third) location, making it even more difficult to determine cause of death. Varying groups say different people moved the corpses for varying political reasons, whether to attempt to hide the atrocities or to perpetrate the story of them.

Because of this, it's very difficult to determine exactly how many bodies have been recovered related to Srebrenica, or how they died. The reports I've seen estimate between 3,000 and 6,000 total bodies have been recovered, all of which or only part, may be related to Srebrenica. Furthermore, some bodies were found unburied in the area of Srebrenica, as opposed to mass graves.

A few examples:

A grave was found in Liplje, near Zvornik, with approximately 200 bodies. This grave contained bodies which had been reburied from another location.

A grave was found near Kamenica, with approximately 15 bodies. Some of the corpses were incomplete, while others had their hands bound by wire.

A grave was found in Crni Vrh, near Zvornik, with approximately 700 bodies. The graves contained bodies which had been reburied from another location.

It is very difficult to get totals, I've seen anywhere from 43 to 60 different mass graves have been discovered which are allegedly from the incidents following Srebrenica.

The fact that there are so many different graves in varying locations, with varying totals of people buried there, counterindicates any organized plan to commit genocide. Considering that many of these graves contained reburied corpses, the total number of original grave sites may be much higher.

Furthermore, various allegations of mass graves have been disproved. A CIA satellite photograph of a soccer field near Nova Kasaba was supposed to show evidence of a mass grave, however investigation into the area failed to discover it.

There are also very few stories of survivors of the different massacres, strangely convergent from other genocidial mass killings such as perpetrated by Nazi Germany.

Similarly, a reported mass grave site at Ljubija was explored by British troops without discovering any bodies.

In the cases of Pilica and Branjevo Farm (see below), evidence of blood, hair and human tissue was discovered. Only a limited number of bodies have been discovered in this area, with some alleged bodies from these incidents found reburied in other areas.

According to the International Commission on Missing Persons, a total of 2,070 people have been identified as Srebrenica victims. I might add that the ICMP is a Bosnia-based agency, which receives funding from NATO countries and private foundations.

Drazen Erdemovic

There's a link to some of his official testimony below, but it is clear that a large percentage of the "proof" of a massacre/genocide following Srebrenica is based on his testimony. A summary of what is known about him and what he has stated on the record:

  • Erdemovic is an ethnic Croat, who was born and raised in Tuzla, Bosnia
  • Previously he was a soldier for both the ABiH (Bosniak military) as well as the HVO (Bosnian Croat military)
  • Erdemovic testified he left the ABiH precisely because he wanted to avoid combat operations
  • According to his testimony, he was beaten up by fellow Croats in the HVO for "helping" Serbs leave Bosnian territory. Other reports say he made money doing this
  • Erdemovic said he went to Republika Srpska because a Serb told him he could help Erdemovic (and his pregnant wife) escape to Switzerland. This Serb man has never been identified and this claim was never verified
  • Erdemovic said he was forced to join the VRS, and chose the 10th Sabotage Group because it was mostly a reconnaissance group that did not engage in fighting. Erdemovic said in the ABiH, HVO and VRS he always chose postings where he wouldn't have to kill anyone
  • Erdemovic was arrested in 1996 in Yugoslavia by Yugoslav forces after publically stating he had participated in a massacre (more on this below). He was then turned over voluntarily by the Yugoslav gov't, then still under the control of Slobodan Milosevic
  • Erdemovic's testimony about massacres in two locations (Pilica and Branjevo) was the first evidence that ICTY prosecutors had that anything had even occurred there, much less a massacre.
  • Erdemovic testified that he guessed the victims of Pilica and Branjevo came from Zvornik, but admitted he had no actual knowledge of their origin
  • The 10th Sabotage Group was paramilitary in nature, composed of different ethnicities (including a Muslim Bosniak) and was only partially under the control and command of the VRS. There is evidence that this was a paramilitary or even mercenary group (paid contractors)
  • Erdemovic testified that the massacres he witnessed and participated in took place on July 16, five days after the fall of Srebrenica
  • Erdemovic's testimony was that he and seven other men (total of 8) of the 10th Sabotage Group, were ordered to kill approximately 200-300 unarmed men in a barn (referred to as the Branjevo Farm). Erdemovic stated he killed between 10 and 100 men himself
  • Immediately after this massacre, he was ordered to join a group of other soldiers who were killing a group of unarmed Muslim Bosniak men inside of a government hall in Pilica. Erdemovic and at least 4 of his comrades (out of 8) refused to do so, but witnessed other soldiers killing some people who attempted to escape the building. Erdemovic did not see anything going on inside the building, but stated that he heard shooting and screaming
  • According to Erdemovic's testimony, a few days later (July 22), while drinking heavily in a bar with other soldiers, one Serb soldier was angry with his non-participation in the Pilica gov't building massacre and shot him four times, seriously injuring him. Erdemovic was removed to a hospital inside Yugoslavia (Belgrade) and treated for his wounds
  • A short while later, he stated to the media that a massacre had occurred in Pilica and he had participated in it
Erdemovic, although he confessed the murder of between 10 and 100 unarmed men, was given a five year sentence by the ICTY. This was partly because he showed "remorse" and partly because his testimony was key in convicting General Krtic and evidence for the indictments against Mlatko Radic and Radovan Karadzic.

There are several problems with his testimony however:
  • Erdemovic was diagnosed with a severe case of post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), which delayed his testimony to the ICTY
  • Erdemovic had difficulty describing the men he shot and could not say if they were blindfolded or not, were facing towards him or not, or whether their hands were bound or not or even approximately how many there were
  • Erdemovic said his unit was deployed to Pilica by a "Lieutenant Colonel", but this man has never been named by the ICTY or in ICTY testimony and it is not even clear whether this Lt. Colonel was in the VRS or another military organization. In fact, Erdemovic stated he knew the man was a Lt. Colonel because he saw his "rank and insignia" on his uniform, but he did not have his name on the uniform
  • Erdemovic said only he and 7 other members of the 10th Sabotage Group were ordered to commit the first massacre (the Branjevo Farm incident) yet earlier stated that unit did not engage in combat and had never killed anyone and was primarily a reconnaissance unit
  • Erdemovic said he only obeyed the order to kill the unarmed men because he feared for his life and was warned he would be executed too if he did not obey, yet later the same day he refused a direct order from the same commanding officer to participate in the Pilica gov't building massacre
  • Erdemovic refused to press charges against the Serb soldier who (allegedly) shot him four times
  • While in the hospital in Serbia (Yugoslavia) recovering from his wounds, Erdemovic met another member of the group of soldiers who participated in the Pilica gov't building massacre. That soldier said he had been paid a large sum of gold for participating (Erdemovic was not). It was only after this that he told the media about the incidents
  • Erdemovic testified that he had not been paid for a year and a half before he spoke to the media
  • Erdemovic testified he could not remember how much he was paid as a member of the 10th Sabotage Group, or what his responsibilities were, or what his military contract stated
  • Some of Erdemovic's testimony was given during closed sessions, for which transcripts do not exit
Erdemovic's testimony was also allowed to be used in an "Article 61" hearing against Ratko Mladic (VRS military commander) and Radovan Karadzic (VRS political leader). This is highly controversial because under ICTY rules, this testimony is not allowed to be cross-examined. In other words, Erdemovic's confession was never allowed to be cross-examined by anyone.

Hakija Meholjic and Nesib Buric

There is evidence that the Bosniak leadership, under President Alija Izetbegovic, wanted Srebrenica to fall into Serb hands to gain a political victory. Certainly the allegations of massacres/genocide subsequent to the fall of Srebrenica greatly helped their cause.

According to a UN report from 1993:
Representatives of the Bosniac community gathered in Sarajevo on 28 and 29 September to vote on the peace package. A delegation of Bosniacs from Srebrenica was transported to Sarajevo by UNPROFOR [UN forces in Bosnia] helicopter to participate in the debate. Prior to the meeting, the delegation met in private with [Bosnian] President Izetbegovic, who told them that there were Serb proposals to exchange Srebrenica and Zepa for territories around Sarajevo. The delegation opposed the idea, and the subject was not discussed further. Some surviving members of the Srebrenica delegation have stated that President Izetbegovic also told them he had learned that a NATO intervention in Bosnia and Herzegovina was possible, but could only occur if the Serbs were to break into Srebrenica, killing at least 5,000 of its people."
There were two key factors at work here:
  • Izetbegovic was working on consolidation of power over the Bosniak government and forces. He had full control over the Bosniak forces in Sarajevo but there were anti-Izetbegovic forces amongst the units in Srebrenica
  • The fall of Srebrenica would consolidate NATO military support for his forces and help stem opposition from members of the United Nations
Izetbegovic denied making the offer listed above but it was confirmed by none other than Hakija Meholjic, who was the (Bosniak Muslim) chief of police for Srebrenica. On June 22, 1998 he stated:
'You know, I was offered by Clinton in April 1993 (after the fall of Cerska and Konjevic Polje) that the Chetnik [VRS] forces enter Srebrenica, carry out a slaughter of 5,000 Muslims, and then there will be a military intervention.' ...our delegation was composed of nine people, one among us was from Bratunac and unfortunately he is the only one not alive now, but all the others from the delegation are alive and can confirm this."
It is an uncontested fact that the leadership of the 28th ABiH Infantry Division, including Naser Oric, had departed the Srebrenica area before the VRS occupied the town. Why were the top 18 leaders of the unit missing?

According to [Muslim Bosniak] Nesib Buric, a former member of the 28th Division defending Srebrenica, they were left to be slaughtered:
"I know that they are now trying to humiliate people from Srebrenica and spread rumors that we supposedly did not fight and were slain while running away from Srebrenica. No one can deny that in the Srebrenica municipality there are 2,000 buried fighters. No one can deny that we set up a large free territory. However, without assistance from outside we could not hold out for long surrounded by the enemy. You can write that I absolutely support the statement by Hakija Meholjic that we were betrayed.
Again, there are credible reports that members of the "northern column" fought one another, perhaps over this very issue, some arguing that they should've stayed behind and tried to defend the territory, others saying that there was a political purpose in letting the town fall.

The Srebrenica Massacre Videotape

On June 2, 2005, a videotape was shown during Slobodan Milosevic's trial that allegedly showed Serb units killing unarmed Bosniak prisoners as part of the Srebrenica Massacre. This videotape was later played on both Serbian and Bosnian television.

While horrific, the tape shows only six people being killed. The perpetrators were identified as being members of a group called the "Scorpions", which were a paramilitary unit. They did not report to, nor were they part of, the VRS. In fact, the Scorpions were comprised of Serbs from Krajina (Croatia) and reported to the Republika Srspka Krajina, a completely separate entity (this was before Operation Storm ethnically cleansed the area).

Furthermore, the killings shown on the videotape took place in Mt. Treskavica, which is near Pale. This is nowhere near the other reported massacres (of men from Srebrenica), in fact it is in completely the opposite direction.

It should be noted that most of the members of the Scorpions shown on the videotape were arrested shortly after its release, most of the men living in Croatia, where that unit had been based.

So while the incident on videotape is horrific, it is completely and utterly unrelated to the Srebrenica massacres/genocide.

Conclusion

Approximately 260,000 people of all ethnicities were killed between 1992-1995. Almost 2 million people were displaced, most of this in what can be accurately referred to as "ethnic cleansing".

There is sufficient evidence to reasonably say that some Muslim prisoners were killed by Serb or Serb-allied forces following the occupation of Srebrenica. How many people were killed in "mass executions" versus ordinary combat is not known and with the reburial of so many corpses, may never be accurately known.

The bulk of the direct testimony of massacres came from a single man - Drazen Erdemovic. The rest of the evidence is secondary, which does not negate its value however.

No verbal or written orders of genocide or mass murder to be conducted by the VRS against the Bosniaks has ever been produced in court.

The allegations of genocide in Srebrenica had vast political ramifications, including the exclusion of VRS leaders from the Dayton Accord negotiations, the strengthened NATO alliance with Bosniak forces, and U.S. mercenary trained Croatian forces fighting in Bosnia.

It should be noted that the United Nations, as an indicator of world opinion, had opposed NATO involvement in the war prior to the fall of Srebrenica as well.

There are other mass graves that have been discovered with bodies of people who died in incidents completely unrelated to Srebrenica.

The fact that Yugoslav authorities turned over Drazen Erdemovic to the ICTY completely puzzled the trial judge:
THE PRESIDING JUDGE: A question I might ask the Prosecutor. How do you interpret this relative co-operation on the part of a country which we can say up to this point has not really demonstrated any strong desire to co-operate with the Tribunal? Do you have any idea about this question? Can you answer this question?

MR. HARMON: I have often asked myself the same question, your Honour, but I have been unable to answer the question and cannot answer the question today.
Considering the importance of Erdemovic's testimony, why would the Yugoslav government turn him over to the ICTY if they had ordered genocide or mass executions of Bosniak prisoners?

Frankly, the civil war was a brutal inter-ethnic conflict with atrocities committed by all sides on multiple occasions. It is my belief however that the incidents of Srebrenica, while tragic and horrible, did not amount to "genocide" and the evidence provided in ICTY testimony for this is extremely weak. I do believe a number of unarmed people were killed in both "Srebrenica" incidents as well as elsewhere during the war, all of which is unforgivable and completely wrong.

It is my belief that a number of groups, including journalist David Rohde as well as Natasa Kandic, have inflated and hyperbolized the existing facts about what happened.

I know it is futile to hope that a dispassionate investigation into what happened will ever be conducted. My hope in writing this article however was to assess and analyze the situation. Again I fully understand and expect that different people have different views on this highly emotional issue.

References

The Netherlands Institute for War Documentation conducted an extensive investigation into Srebrenica for the Dutch government, which can be found here (in English).

The testimony of Drazen Erdemovic to the ICTY.

The ICTY official judgement against Radislav Krstic

Slobodan Milosevic's rebuttal to the conviction of Radislav Krstic.

Information about Izetbegovic's engineering of the fall of Srebenica and betrayal of its defenders.

The most comprehensive analysis of Srebrenica and its place in the larger context - from a blog (of course).

A pro-Serbian website about the allegations of Srebrenica

A website entitled the Widows of Bosnia has a lot of information and photos about Srebrenica

Pax

Display:
Soj, your artickle is a massive tour de force containing a wealth of, to me, new information which leads me to rethink what I thought I knew about the story.

This, however, I find hard to swallow:

'You know, I was offered by Clinton in April 1993 (after the fall of Cerska and Konjevic Polje) that the Chetnik [VRS] forces enter Srebrenica, carry out a slaughter of 5,000 Muslims, and then there will be a military intervention.' ...our delegation was composed of nine people, one among us was from Bratunac and unfortunately he is the only one not alive now, but all the others from the delegation are alive and can confirm this."

Now, William Clinton is a cynical man. But the alleged Srebrenica contradicts his refusal of Chirac's known suggestion, made by phone after the conquest of the 'safe zone,' of a joint reconquest using French storm infantry and US air support.

It's also far-fetched that Clinton would cite a figure of 5000 to be massacred. That's just not the way such things are handled. To me, this throws serious doubt on the testimony and thus on the entire conspiracy theory, not enormously plausible at the outset, of Srebrenica being sacrificed as part of a gambit.

By the way, in the media reports I've seen, the Scorpions are said to be a Serbian unit, which is why the execution video is being belatedly marshalled as evidence against Milosevic at the Hague tribunal. For instance: news.bbc.co.uk :

The killers are wearing the uniforms of a unit known as the Scorpions, which prosecutors say fell under the command of the Serbian interior ministry.

Are you positive that this is factually wrong?

Again, tremendous article. As so often, I'm amazed at your range of knowledge.


The world's northernmost desert wind.

by Sirocco (sirocco2005ATgmail.com) on Sat Jul 2nd, 2005 at 01:21:55 PM EST
I agree with your assessment of Clinton's personal words.. I do know however that Bosnia was Madeleine Albright's baby and so whatever occurred has her stamp on it.

I quoted the commander simply because that's what HE said.

As for the Scorpions, as I said they were a Krajina Croat unit at the time of Srebrenica (July 1995).  After Operation Storm and the cleansing of all Serbs from Krajina, they later were folded into the Serb command structure.

Specifically, the Scorpions later worked under the auspices of the MUP, which is the Interior Ministry.  But this was in 1999... in July 1995 they were part of the Republika Srpska Krajina.

From here:

While Milosevic does not dispute that crimes are committed on the tape, he argues that there is no evidence linking the killings - which took place outside the town of Trnovo - to Srebrenica, which lies some 150 kilometres away. He also argues that the Scorpions unit pictured in the tape had no links to any official Serbian military structures at the time of the massacre.

Milosevic told the court that the Scorpions unit had been set up in the early Nineties to provide security for the oil industry in the then Republic of Serb Krajina, the Serb-held entity in Croatia. This appeared to be an apparent attempt to distance himself from their subsequent actions in Bosnia.

During his re-examination by the defendant, General Obrad Stevanovic - the former assistant interior minister whose testimony has lasted a record five weeks at The Hague - told the court that the Scorpions unit had come under the command of the Belgrade authorities, in a "reserve capacity", but only long after the end of the war in Bosnia.

Pax

Night and day you can find me Flogging the Simian

by soj on Sat Jul 2nd, 2005 at 02:00:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
.
For excellent coverage of a political disgrace for Europe and the United Nations, not capable to prevent or limit the horror of the Balkan War, brother vs. brother, neighbor vs. neighbor, the ethnic cleansing, spread of terror, concentration camps, rape, murder and executions.

The cause IMO was the ethnic differences and the revenge from divisiveness and genocide in World War II.

The agreements and treaties were not worth the paper it was written on, as example the flow of arms to the Bosnian forces - the Croatian pipeline. This permitted the establishment of a Saudi funded Islamic cell on the Balkans which turned later into an Al Qaeda cell which is still not eradicated.

Washington -- U.S. Ambassador to Germany Charles Redman and U.S. Ambassador to Croatia Peter Galbraith testified May 30, 1996 before the House International Relations Committee regarding 1994 Iranian arms shipments to Bosnian government military forces. At the time of these shipments, the Bosnians were in danger of being overwhelmed by Serbian forces armed with tanks and other heavy weapons the Bosnians could not counter.

Ambassador Galbraith said he knew Croatian authorities would interpret his statement that he had no instructions regarding the transshipment of arms from Iran and other countries through Croatia to beleaguered Bosnian forces as meaning that the United States would not object to the move.

Both ambassadors noted at that time that Iran had already been supplying arms to the Bosnians since 1992.

Ambassador Redman said: "In retrospect, I believe that the decision not to oppose the Croatian initiative was crucial to all that followed in the Balkans." He said that after the Serbs overran Gorazde, "the Bosnian government was in dire straits." He contended that if the United States had blocked the Iranian arms supply initiative, "it very likely would have doomed the (Croat-Muslim) Federation and exacerbated an already desperate military situation for the Bosnians.

"Instead," he said, "the Bosnian armed forces held on and began to counterattack. The Federation survived, UNPROFOR remained in place, helping the Bosnians through another difficult winter, and we bought time for a combination of American diplomacy, NATO air power and Croatian and Bosnian military victories, to reach an historic peace agreement in Dayton."

That's right, at the time there was an UN arms embargo for all of former Yugoslavia. The US signed on to the deal for Iranian arms, funded by Saudi Arabia and delivered by plane through logistic support from NATO partner Turkey.

PS Has Bobby Fisher been apprehended for playing the game of chess during the US economic embargo?

USA WELCOME: Make Yourself Known @BooMan Tribune and add some cheers!

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by Oui (Oui) on Sat Jul 2nd, 2005 at 02:01:59 PM EST
As you most astutely referred to Oui, there is a larger context of the Bosnia/Croatia wars of independence, involving NATO, the United States and its allies.

I did not delve into that too much simply because I restricted myself to Srebrenica.

Both the 92-95 civil wars as well as the 99 Kosovo war does merit a lot more discussions, especially on this website, as it is an extremely important issue for Europe.

Pax

Night and day you can find me Flogging the Simian

by soj on Sat Jul 2nd, 2005 at 02:26:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thank you for doing so much work and sharing it here.

I have just begun to try to become more informed about Southeastern Europe. My grandmother left Hungary in 1913 and returned home for a visit after the Great War, but by then her family's home (near Timisoara) was in Romania.

I'm beginning to think that understanding the ghostly clashes of so many once mighty empires and the historical enmities of so many rival ethnicities is a life-long project.

Again, thank you.

by marylrgn on Sat Jul 2nd, 2005 at 02:32:10 PM EST
Timişoara is a beautiful city... can I ask where your grandmother is from exactly?

As for the clash of once-mighty empires, there is quite a lot of that in Europe.  Srebrenica however happened just ten years ago, and I think it merits an open discussion.

Pax

Night and day you can find me Flogging the Simian

by soj on Sat Jul 2nd, 2005 at 02:53:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
She was from a place called Kistelep, Hungary, according to the ship's manifest records at Ellis Island -- I think it was a very small place. I never paid much attention growing up, and now it's too late to ask her directly.  I know they were ethnic Germans and she spoke German, Hungarian, Romanian and English. My grandfather left Kisbecskerek, Hungary, in 1908 at the age of 10. I now know that the Romanian name of the town is Becichercu Mic.

Certainly Srebrenica merits an open discussion, and I very much appreciate your posting such a detailed account. I am terribly ignorant regarding any European events, recent or otherwise, but I am determined to begin to learn. European Tribune looks like a good place to continue my education.

Thanks again.

by marylrgn on Sat Jul 2nd, 2005 at 06:27:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Soj, I realize that my next question may open this up beyond the scope of the diary, but you wrote that 260,000 have died. The ICTY is working with a much smaller number. I'm wondering if you know about this and whether you have reason to believe the larger number is more trustworthy?

Are you aware of the Reuters report this December in which a Bosnian Muslim investigator, Mirsad Tokea, who headed a Human Rights forensic and research team out of Norway, has said that the true number is closer to 80,000?

Furthermore, the ICTY is now working with a figure of about 100,000.

Bosnian Death Toll

The numbers as broken down by this blogger Gray Falcon (ominous name) show from the report that 102,000 died, "55,261 civilians and 47,360 soldiers were killed, including Bosnian Muslims, Bosnian Serbs and Bosnian Croats. The researchers estimate the number of killed civilian Muslims and Croats to be around 38,000, while the number of killed civilian Serbians was about 16,700. Among military personnel, the researchers think close to 28,000 people were killed in the government army, mostly Bosnian Muslims. On the Serbian side, 14,000 soldiers were killed, while a bit over 6,000 Bosnian Croatian soldiers lost their lives because of actions of war."

The way they figure these totals is odd. Croats and Muslims are lumped together. Only the Serbs are separated out. Also, it's very hard to distinguish military dead from civilian dead among all the ethnicities. I find these classifications odd for two reasons. One, the Croats and Muslims were engaged in heavy fighting in the town of Mostar for a long period of time. In fact, Croatian leader Tudjman once proposed to Milosevic a common strategy to split Bosnia. Secondly, there was a large Bosnian Muslim army in Western Bosnia which was affiliated with the Serbs. This was the army led by Fikret Abdic, a muslim. They were said to have committed some of the most heinous crimes against Muslims.

So, really, it's impossible to know how many of the 38,000 civilains who died of the Muslim/Croat total were actually Muslim (I'll assume the great majority). But then it's also difficult to know how many were killed by Abdic and troops, or how many civilians loyal to Abdic were killed.

Why is all this important? To establish culpability for war crimes. I'm not a huge fan of the ICTY but I absolutely believe in these tribunals as an effective way to stop war crimes. Someone needs to wade through the gruesome evidence to the truth.

Finally, I'll note that some researchers still on the ground in Bosnia believe they can establish between 100,000 and 150,000 deaths, as shown in the article. Again, these numbers are relevant because the difference between 30,000 civilians killed and the 260,000 often quoted in the press, is the difference between a brutal insurgency, a policy of war crimes, a scourge of ethnic cleansing, and finally a genocide. With 260,000 dying, the numbers are genocidal. As they decrease, that term becomes less applicable. That's not to say that war criminals do not have genocidal aims. I'm talking about the context within which military operations take place.

by Upstate NY on Sat Jul 2nd, 2005 at 09:12:52 PM EST
I hesitated to write about recent Balkan's CIVIL wars for too many reasons. One of them would be because I wouldn't know where to start exactly trying to explain roots of these wars because it goes deeply back in to the history and the other good reason is because of my truly limited English language abilities. But now I just have to give it a go no matter what. I just saw this topic and didn't want to read it before I write my story because I didn't want to be influenced with your text Soy. I`ll read and respond to it later.
I am not historian or scientist of any kind , just a simple person and this is what comes from my point of you...I don't pretend that I know much tho in a scientific sense...but then again I used to live there.
When I was a kid being raised in communist's state of ex- YU I wasn't that much interested in history. First because I had terrible my first history teacher and most important of all reasons was the one that I had feeling (and I was told by my parents so) that they are feeding us bunch of lies in this field ...especially about WWII and "revolution" after it.
Ex YU has  ALWAYS been tensioned with national issues (6 republics , two autonomous territories , and actually kind of 3-4 real nations and numerous minorities from all around neighboring countries) and honestly it was just holding together because of a "strong hand" (dictatorship) prior to WWII  (Serbian monarchy) but specially after the WWII (Tito's "monarchy"). A special animosity stood in between Serbs and Croats. Serbs being the biggest and strongest nation and Croats having their thousand years old lost dream to have their own state which they haven't been able to accomplish until recently with a help of Europe (and Germans at the first place). As Serbs and Croats speak the same language (like say Irish and English people) and share identical names and surnames they obviously come from the same root but for some reason these two tribes hated each other through history. The biggest reason there may be because of them being of different religion I suppose. By split of the Roman Empire it happened that line between Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches has been made right between their territories. The other dangerous animosity took place far back in history between Serbs and so called Muslims. It's pretty hard to acknowledge that there is a nation called Muslims and that this nation does not speak any other language but Serbian (or Croatian if you will ...or Serbo-Croatian as we used to call it during Tito's governments). So we Serbs believe that Bosnian Muslims are actually Serbs that converted to Islam during 500 years long occupation of Bosnia by Ottomans. Maybe some of them are Croats too but we believe they are mostly Serbs and...of course this conversion to another religion hasn't been seen as a good thing at all...Animosity was there just under the surface even through long Tito's regime... and all the propaganda of " brotherhood and unity" had no chance to change it in million years. Well all those sorts of animosities one would say could be resolved without bloodshed but it wasn't possible because of the events during WWII.
As we all know after Serbian monarchy capitulated to Germans and fled to England and country has been found it self in disarray Croatians saw this as a chance to finally have their "independent" state. So they cheerfully joined Hitler and that gave them NDH -illusion of the state independent ...but just from Serbs, of course. This was a great chance for them to finally ethnically cleanse their new state from Serbs that used to live there as long as they lived. Terrible crimes against Serbian population in Croatia have been committed by Ustashi- their "elite". The third largest concentration camp of the World War II Nazi occupied Europe was founded by infamous Ustashi. Its name was:

JASENOVAC
SOME SIX HUNDRED THOUSAND PEOPLE WERE MURDERED AT JASENOVAC, mostly Serbs, Jews, Gypsies,

More of the view from Serbian point here:
http://www.srpska-mreza.com/library/facts/jasenovac.html

But you can also find others here:
http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=Jasenovac+WWII&sourceid=mozilla-search

This was a biggest crime but they have done it routinely...whole families have been slaughtered...intentionally...down to the baby in a cot...And Bosnian Muslims joined them and gave them a "helping hand" with a knife in it...It wasn't that much of the surprise for them to be pro - Germanic having in mind that both Croatia and Bosnia used to be Austro-Hungarian "colonies" while Serbia managed to become kind of independent after Ottomans have left.
Neither had we forgiven nor forgotten it for 50 years of peace...So when Croatians expressed their will to separate from ex-YU again, this was a biggest case on Milosevic's side...are we going to just let them slaughter our brothers in Croatia AGAIN? No matter how "unpatriotic" one could be in Serbia he had to shut up. As others I knew too that Serbs in Croatia (and Bosnia) are in danger and that something needs to be done I just couldn't see how civil war is going to help them and thought that real -estate adds would be more helpful for people to relocate...and some kind of agreement about land should take place between governments. Gosh I didn't like having to deal whit Milosevic and his "Bolsheviks" while Croatians and others were about to join Europe (all tho mostly Germans, haha). But I thought it's a bad luck and we Serbs have to deal with it inside our shity destiny...Anything but CIVIL war would play for me, but hey who am I and who's listening to simple people like me. About probably half of Serbian population shared my view or something similar and was anti - war. It was obvious where Milosevic is leading us and we tried to stop him and a hatred his TV was spreading in a lead to wars. We had huge demonstrations and he sent his police and even Army on us. There was nothing that we could do to stop war machine...Field has been laid for war and when you put so much of the weaponry in people's hands it's practically unstoppable. The only one's who could stop it were Americans and Europeans and bunch of futile  "negotiations" took place but for Serbs and Milosevic there was  only stick but not carrot in it.
The decision has been made actually long before and all those "negotiations" actually was a show of power and threatening and blackmailing from the powerful West.
Now I hate Milosevic for putting us in to situation like this but I can sympathize how terrific these "negotiations" were. I hated him even more for rejecting one (for us) awful plan only to agree to even worse one when hard-pressed enough...
Let me tell you about crimes...War started and we were filled with TV propaganda and pictures that I and a good portion of population rejected to believe in. Much worse of the visual TV news was rumor about atrocities...done by our side. One wouldn't know if that too is a part of propaganda ("look who we have on our side and yes we can turn them against you too") to shut-up opposition...And yes we were opposed to Milosevic and war but to even acknowledge that so horrific things have been done in our names ...it's so bloody hard. I managed to make my self believe that all tho the war completely is unacceptable and horrific as such those specific incidents that we are hearing of must not be largely spread...I suppose it was easier to live with it. And there was always another say "It happens on all sides" that have effect of some kind of "anesthesia" too. "Yes they are doing the same to our guys" like it's making it less wrong for our guys to do it. To make a long story short I refused to believe and acknowledge the scale of the crimes. And so many Serbs still do. Cause it's painful...
And then Srebrenica came. I was already living in southern hemisphere and not that much in to the war that seemed never to stop and I lost my fate it will end any time soon all tho it seemed to be under some kind of "control"...not that intensive any more cause all the sides being "on their own space" and fortified...
I couldn't and till this day I can't understand WHY it happened. There is no logical reason for the event and this makes me even madder about it. I always deeply hated Mladic no matter how capable in a military sense man be and never ever had any respect for Karadzic no matter how good his intentions have been originally. All tho I understood that Serbs in Bosnia had to be organized in a midst of such a huge change as dismantling of ex YU (the country where all Serbs used to live in one state) was. But unfortunately they were no lucky to find right leaders to lead them through these dark times in their history. The only way I can even start to understand why that happened in Srebrenica would be that because it was obviously the end of the war "game" as we know it , Mladic has been told of what ever Milosevic is about to sign in Dayton (or where ever). And because it was the end of his "Napoleonian carrier" and because it was the end of his dream and dream of Bosnian Serbs that they can join Serbia with a large portion of Bosnia and a small portion of Croatia ...the only thing I can think of is massive REVENGE ... madness and show of sick power on the helpless population of Srebrenica.
I feel terribly sorry for all those people that had to pay with their lives in Srebrenica...no matter how many of them. I do not understand some Serbs trying to find some comfort in a fact that maybe, just maybe the number of victims is exaggerated (say not 8000 but 2000-3000). This is grouse and I don't find it easier to bare this crime on my shoulders at all. It's done in a name of freedom of my people and it's so bloody wrong...
I am not trying to find any excuses for what happened I just wanted to explain that hatred has bloody deep roots and what's done in recent Balkans wars is just going to nurture it farther...unfortunately... and Balkan will swim in a blood...again...
I am sorry if this is too long and I don't have a time to review it and am not sure that I made my point for you...anyway...I tried...
-------------------
Now I'll go read your text...

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein

by vbo on Sun Jul 3rd, 2005 at 02:10:34 AM EST
for the "inside" perspective, which shows the utter senselessness of this conflict. Like you, I don't really see what difference it makes if it was 3000 or 8000 dead in that instance; in either case it's still the single biggest massacre since WWII, even if i imagine that there have been a few other battles in the country that may come close.

Maybe the only good thing that came out of it is that it finally shamed the West into action, and into actually acting for peace. While the situation on the ground cannot be described as great in any way, at least there is no longer war, which, for the civilian populations, is the most important thing.

The Yugoslav wars have been an unmitigated disaster for all (well, first and foremost for the populations caught in it), and showed the worst from politicians of all kinds - Milosevic shamefully flaming Serbian nationalism to hold to power while the communist system was falling apart, Croatia rushing for independence and blaming Belgrade for the same situation, Germany redescovering its existence on the world diplomatic stage after reunification by foolishsly taking sides (the same as the nazis!) in that conflict by recognizing Croatia, France, instead of reasoning Germany, falling into age old patterns and supporting the other side, fighting reunification by proxy, and all other outsiders acting with various degrees of cowardice and cynicism.

We should all be ashamed of what our countries did, (or didn't do), feel lucky that we were not in the cross fire, and keep  in mind that the forces of narrow nationalism are amways easy to manipulate and unleash, but hard to control afterwards, and remember what the consequences will be for us.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sun Jul 3rd, 2005 at 02:57:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This is precisely my view of the war. First of all, you have to look at the brew, the origins of it, and that brew is a diplomatic one. When we champion the cause of self-determination, we also have to have a clear plan which allows it to come to fruition peacefully, especially when there is no violence or even discrimination taking place (Kosovo was the only province in which serious discrimination and violence was a problem before 1991). We can't simply stand on principle when that principle of self-determination conflicts with other moral principles (esp. the rights of minorities).

One minor disagreement with you Jerome is that I feel the West was not simply blind or stupid in its early recognition of the breakaway states but that the West was also very willful. Have a look at the Vance-Owen plan (which actually looks very much like Dayton as well). (VBO, also, you should know that some statesmen and diplomats did have a way out of the senselessness, but the path to peace was lost along the way when politicians and diplomats held to ill-thought out principles.)

Here are some letters to American Senators blasting the Vance-Owen plan:

A moral rejection of Vance-Owen

Here's an article in French which explains the critiques of the Vance-Owen plan:

Vance-Owen pitfalls

Finally, here's an article in the NYT Review of Books that's most telling about the Vance-Owen plan and its detractors:

The Fall of Vance-Owen

The essential qualm against Vance-Owen was that it rewarded Serbian aggression in 1991-1992. We have to remember that Milosevic actually agreed to Vance-Owen, and that it was scuppered by the West (both James Baker and Warren Christopher hated it). I would argue that Vance-Owen was a better plan for Bosnia than Dayton was. Basically, Dayton allowed for partition (I still say it will happen eventually). Vance-Owen cantonised Bosnia, which in its very definition meant that the rights of minorities would be protected in their own cantons, and that they would not be subservient to a powerful state. It was a federalist solution. 3 years after Vance-Owen, after a great many deaths, this vision of a Federalist Bosnia had been laid to waste.

Essentially, the moral detractions against Vance-Owen (that it rewards violence) cannot themselves withstand a moral critique. If you apply a moral principle without taking into account the political context, well then you are not very moral at all. The political context was this: the federations within Yugoslavia were being recognized by the West without any explicit legalized regard for the rights of minorities within those federations. The West was powerless to prevent highly discriminatory laws passed against minorities within the very first days of the Croat Republic. So, to take a moral stand on principle a year or so later was highly convenient for the West when it had already ignored a set of moral principles which were the real triggers to the Balkan Wars.

My main problem is that I don't believe the West was ignorant. I believe their disregard was willful. As for Clinton, even Holbrooke rues the fact that Clinton was under the spell of American Neo-Conservative thinking regarding the Balkans. The Neo-Cons saw the conflagration as inevitable. In other words, it was going to happen anyway, and thus the US had to choose sides regardless.

Any discussion of the ex-Yugo which doesn't account for the failure of diplomacy in 1991 is bankrupt, IMO.

by Upstate NY on Sun Jul 3rd, 2005 at 11:49:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, German and French diplomacy at the turn of the decade was really pathetic, and worse, criminal as it incited the worst behaviors by nationalists in FYU. That's why I wrote about a little war by proxy for the two countries, before saner head prevailed, France accepted reunification and Germany understood that it still had to be responsible, even when unshackled by post WWII - especially when unshackled... Yugos paid the price of that lesson.

Then everybody was to cowardly to intervene forcefully. (That's actually one of the few things that I hold to Chirac's credit - he got things moving again in 1995, finally)

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sun Jul 3rd, 2005 at 12:17:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Any discussion of the ex-Yugo which doesn't account for the failure of diplomacy in 1991 is bankrupt, IMO.
*
You are so right...

Quote:
Then everybody was to cowardly to intervene forcefully. (That's actually one of the few things that I hold to Chirac's credit - he got things moving again in 1995, finally)
*
Diplomacy had to take place in late 80-es. Or even in early 80-ies when Tito died all tho it wasn't possible to be really "creative" in diplomacy , prior to a fall of USSR, I admit...
In 90-es it was too late...and all those shows (negotiations) were just that ...SHOWS...and nothing more. It was pretty hard to support Milosevic (I know I couldn't) but I really expected France (especially) to make them take in consideration  some of Serbian interests cause there was no one out there to do it. At least we felt France used to be a friend of Serbia in not that distant past ( WWI etc.).But...obviously France was busy looking after it's own interest and Milosevic was a pretty good excuse for doing so. I don't know much of the diplomacy but I suspect that for diplomatic solution to be successful it needs to take in to the consideration interests of all sides involved in a conflict...In the end it was easier to bombard Serbia...But things are not solved this way and they will surface again you can bet...it's in their nature...

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein

by vbo on Mon Jul 4th, 2005 at 01:19:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
.
For giving us your very moving tale from inside ex-Yugoslavia. You caught the right emotion how I felt about this ugly civil war, the worst of all wars: brother against brother. See also the US Civil War.

Sitting in the West with all the comforts, it's so easy to judge and make assumptions. Till now, I have only heard the hard-line Serbs tell their version with little compassion for their enemy.

I do hope that as the economic sanctions are lifted, Serbia & Montenegro can rebuild their country and move forward to a better furure.


Building Bridges Between People

USA WELCOME: Make Yourself Known @BooMan Tribune and add some cheers!

'Sapere aude'

by Oui (Oui) on Sun Jul 3rd, 2005 at 03:06:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Soy I've read your article very carefully and thank you for taking that much time and energy to put it all together. It's all informative and interesting. I have heard about most of the things you write about all tho put in some kind of order like in your article they make much more sense. There are definitely so many bloody confusing and fishy  things about events that took place prior and during and even after these wars and I have never had doubts that we Serbs are definitely NOT to simply be blamed  and singled out for what happened. But ...as they say "winners (conquerors) are to write history" and we Serbs definitely are losers here for the time being. I am scared for the destiny of my people in the midst of the mess that still is laying under the surface in the Balkan cause we definitely have no friends around and we are very convenient as "usual suspects" ...
I have visited Serbia this winter and my heart is still bleeding...I promised to write about current situation in Serbia but just can't make my self do it yet...cause it hurts...the level of desperation of my people...
Today news :
BLASTS ROCK KOSOVO
3.7.2005. 11:11:15

Three bombs have exploded in Pristina, the capital of Serbia's UN-administered province of Kosovo, but police said there were no casualties.

Bombs went off outside the UN headquarters, the parliament building and close to office of the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE).

A UN vehicle parked outside the UN mission was destroyed by a fire and two others were damaged.

There has been no claim of responsibility for the blasts.

UN mission spokesman Remi Dourlot said it was too soon to say whether the explosions were part of a plot to attack international agencies in the Serbian province.
*
Who do you think would do this in Pristina where there is no practically living Serb to be found? I wouldn't be surprised if this would be blamed on us too all tho there is no any interest in this for us that I can think of...

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein

by vbo on Sun Jul 3rd, 2005 at 09:04:44 AM EST
Oui , yes I loved that bridge in Mostar...we used to visit it every time when we went on holiday to the Adriatic Coast...They've made a new bridge..."older then previous one", haha (this was a sick joke at the time when we protested bombardment of old city of Dubrovnik and someone said "we'll make a new one, older then previous one").As far as people tell me about Mostar there will be much more "water to pass under that new bridge" until bridges between people are to be built again...even Muslims and Croats in this case...When I saw distraction of this bridge it reminded me in a way of distraction of those two Budas by Taliban in Afghanistan... Savages...I do value human life at the  first place but those who are able to destroy historical monuments are nothing short of savages in my eyes...

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Sun Jul 3rd, 2005 at 09:22:49 AM EST
.
I am scared for the destiny of my people in the midst of the mess that still is laying under the surface in the Balkan cause we definitely have no friends around ...

S&M needs leadership to renew political ties to the Western European nations, not just the Eastern friends who supported the Serbs throughout the Balkan civil war. The future lies in adapting foreign policy and reforming domestic economic and industrial planning, to the reality of the 21st century. Perhaps the Serbs do need to break away from past prejudice and follow a glasnost attitude, how difficult it may be to bite the bullet.

Strength of a nation is based on the hope and character of its people, not the present administration that more often follows a policy for short-term political gain.

Don't believe for one minute that the European populace was united in one voice of support during the NATO bombardments of Serb civilian and industrial targets.


Vuk Stefanovic Karadzic

PS  I do hope Vuk Karadzic was a uniter, that was my intention anyway!

USA WELCOME: Make Yourself Known @BooMan Tribune and add some cheers!

'Sapere aude'

by Oui (Oui) on Sun Jul 3rd, 2005 at 02:23:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Vuk Stefanovic Karadzic was one of the great Serbs...he created modern Serbian alphabet and made broad literacy possible amongst Serbs...and much more. We had quite a few great individuals like Nikola Tesla (who was a Serb just born in Croatia)...even today you'll find many Serbian scientists involved in incredible innovations as well as first class sportsmen etc. Yes individually we are great people if I can say something like that not to look too pretentious but collectively we are in a very dark place right now...it's much worse then even during Milosevic and all those wars. At that time half of our nation believed in wars "for larger Serbia and our unity with Serbs in Croatia and Bosnia) and another half believed in democracy and it's ways to solve our problems. Today no one believes in anything at all.

Quote:
Strength of a nation is based on the hope and character of its people,

*
Serbs do have a special character I can tell you but they lost their hope...they don't believe in democracy any more (like many others in Eastern Europe nowadays) and they are not able to see "light in the end of this tunnel"...One thing that made them survive even 500 years of Ottoman Empire occupation is stubbornness. Sometimes ( like in recent events) it cost them greatly  but other times it's a force for survival...They have seen many Empires come and go...Then again they had their faith then but now they haven't been able to find it again after 50 years of communism. And there is nothing else available to strengthen their collective moral.
I'd like to believe that they will find their way out from this tunnel ...but they'll need helping hand which I don't know where could come from...I steal believe that EU is the natural way to head even tho EU is rapidly falling apart even before it started it's real life...Not sure if EU (in this form) is going to exist until Serbia comes to consideration for it's membership (I was about to write hahaha but it's not funny at all) .I just wouldn't like to see my people all alone in this "windy" place of historical momentum...


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein

by vbo on Mon Jul 4th, 2005 at 12:55:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What should we think of this NYT story?

http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/07/04/news/hague.php

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 5th, 2005 at 03:57:01 AM EST
That the writer goes to bed tonight with a clear conscience, knowing that she's done nothing to contribute to the defense of Serbian war criminals or to make it easier for sadists to justify war crimes in the future.
by Matt in NYC on Mon Jul 11th, 2005 at 05:12:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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