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Selling public housing to The Locusts - a good idea?

by whataboutbob Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 04:11:07 AM EST

From this morning’s news salon: Spiegel Online: BEWARE THE LOCUSTS - Public Housing Sell-Offs on the Rise in Germany

Selling off public housing to foreign investors has become all the rage in Germany and the next big sale is just over the horizon. But many in the country are skeptical of giving in to the "locusts."

It was supposed to be Freiburg's "get-out-of-jail-free" card. One €510 million real-estate deal and the city in south-western Germany was to liberate itself from debt. All Freiburg needed to do was sell the lion's share of its 8,900 city-owned apartments.

As it happens, the city's voters on Sunday rejected the idea, with 70 percent of those casting their ballots voting no. Many were concerned about what would happen were low-income housing to end up in private hands.

Still, Freiburg's attempt to rid itself of debt is hardly unique in Germany. With states and municipalities heavily indebted across the country, selling off properties and assets is en vogue. In just the past few weeks Leipzig and Oranienburg (near Berlin) have sold off parts of their municipal utilities and Düsseldorf got rid of a chunk of its energy supplier. But with a number of cities looking to make major dents in their mountains of debt, it is public housing which heads up the fire-sale list.

The cash-strapped eastern German city of Dresden was the first to make headlines in March of this year with the $1.75 billion sale of 47,000 apartments to the New York based private equity firm Fortress. At a stroke, Dresden was able to free itself of debt.

So, what do you think? Should the government be selling off its housing stock?


Display:
Of course it's a bad idea, but then it's all they can think of.

You don't have to sell land and property - using deficit-based finance to inflate property prices - when you can sell the revenues from the land and property (asset-based financing) through anew take on property ownership.

I think a Diary on Sustainable Development is overdue.

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 04:19:54 AM EST
schemes look like differences without distinction to me.  

selling off a revenue stream associated with the rents is little more than selling a bond being repaid by rents.  What am I not seeing?

Your example re the Chunnel is another one.  First, who'd want a 4% return on money invested in an enterprise that has had to reorganize two or three times already.  Second, if the cash flow to the owners comes off the top, what happens when/if things go poorly and the remaining revenue is insufficient to maintain the asset?  Death spiral?  

How do you finance such projects in the first place?  It's hard to get a revenue stream off an unbuilt project.  Money invested before the revenue stream appears smells like a loan to me or just ordinary equity financing with guaranteed rate of return = preferred stock.

by HiD on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 04:48:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Firstly, it's only an initial 4% return.  If Eurotunnel revenues double, your return doubles. If they halve, yours halve.

Secondly, if you need to raise more money for maintenance in those circumstances, then existing Equity Share holders either contribute or get diluted: sound familiar?

Thirdly, I have not mentioned this, but I believe that the Capital User (Eurotunnel SA) could quite easily agree with their management/staff aka "costs" that they receive an agreed revenue share as well (leaving themselves a "rump" of revenues after all costs) and the management/staff then "self-organise" (effectively as a Co-operative) and agree among themselves how to divide it - I think you would find that is not an unattractive proposition lightyears ahead of stock options.

Finally, yes, you need initial development finance - "deficit-based" as I call it: but you never know, you might be able to find people prepared to invest some of their time, goods services etc in return for Equity Shares.

In fact Macquarie Bank and others are making fortunes from a very similar play - they use deficit-based finance to acquire revenue producing assets and then bundle them up into "asset-based" Trusts/Companies etc and make fortunes on the fact that pension investors are prepared to accept lower returns.

The most important point is that with "Equity" (as in an LLP) there is no need to repay Capital, and this cuts financing costs dramatically in cash flow terms.

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 05:17:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Gee, I wonder how many people would line up for 4% returns in a tunnel that keeps failing to meet traffic/cash flow projections.  How much of the initial equity used to build it has already been erased?

Secondly, if you need to raise more money for maintenance in those circumstances, then existing Equity Share holders either contribute or get diluted: sound familiar

sounds very familiar.  IIRC it's exactly how Eurotunnel approached failure #1.  Just keep finding a new sucker to dump more money in as the enterprise failed to meet goals on traffic/revenue.

Why in the world would "management" agree to be paid AFTER the investors get paid?  ho ho ho.  Looks to be far worse than stock options.  At least with salary + options, if you have a bad year, the salary doesn't evaporate too.

Trading services for equity = taking stock instead of cash.

asset based trusts with guaranteed cash flows roughly equal to preferred stock.

No need to repay capital in any company finance based on shares = stock.

This all strikes me as just renaming existing western structures, but if it makes the mullahs happy no skin off my behind.  Must be fun designing strip clubs for Jerry Falwell too.

by HiD on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 05:33:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Must be fun designing strip clubs for Jerry Falwell too.

They're called Limited Partnerships too...

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 05:37:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
what the choir has on under those robes!
by HiD on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 05:45:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The simple point about an LLP is that you start with a blank sheet of paper.

If I want to I can re-create any other legal protocol: Trust, Company , etc etc or combination of them.

Why would managers and staff wish to be managing partners receiving a share of the gross revenues? And it's not AFTER but at the same time.

You are trying to defend the indefensible HiD .  The current system is irretrievably broken: new structures are needed and LLP's and LLC's offer infinitely flexible tools to provide these structures.

These  may not comply with the standards you are used to, but then you don't have to join in: you can stay doing things the way you do as the world passes you by.

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 05:48:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The current system is irretrievably broken......you don't have to join in: you can stay doing things the way you do as the world passes you by

that is your opinion to which you are entitled.  My guess is the existing system will be strong long after we are both dust.

I don't know enough to argue with you re the legal details of LLCs vs LLPs etc, and truly they don't interest me much as I don't live in the UK or EU.  But it seems to me all you are doing is re-labeling existing structures without any real distinction when it comes to the cash flows.  Other than the elements where you hope investors switch from being Simon Legree to Mother Teresa.

by HiD on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 05:59:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The current system has credit crises with the banks (being "too important to fail") having to be bailed out at the public's expense as a systemic, recurring feature.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 06:22:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The only big bailout I've seen is our S&L mess of the 80's.  The root of that problem was Govt backing without adequate regulation/oversight.  We could have gone the BCCI route and let indviduals suffer based on random choice as to where you parked your money, but chose to instead spread the pain over the entire tax base.

seems fair to me.

The LTC "bailout" seemed to me more of a govt organized restart.  Don't think the taxpayer coughed up a dime.

where do you see a recurring systemic failure in a first world banking system?

by HiD on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 06:44:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No direct taxpayer dime, that's true. But given the moral hazard issues, not to mention the unseemly spectacle of watching the US Fed step in to bail out immensely wealthy people (a case of the curtains being drawn in terms of whose interests the Fed truly defends, naturally), simultaneously contributed both to the continuing inflation of the bubble in the late '90's and thus the knock-in effects of its (continuing) bursting, and the slowly increasing lack of confidence in market institutions (esp when coupled with subsequent so-called "accounting" scandals, cut from the same moral hazard cloth).

OTOH anyone buying insurance, in the US and also beyond the US, was arguably impacted, market distortions, in particular in life insurance vehicles (of the equity annuity type) that LTC's trading strategy created. Additionally, LTC (and its subsequent bail-out) heightened volatility in emerging market equity and bond markets (which naturally is in many respects a goal of NY-based financiers, in addition to being an element of LTC's original strategy viz emerging market).

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 11:00:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
no public cash inflow, no "bailout".    If the big commercial banks paid up a bit for an orderly liquidation in order to protect the rest of their investments that seems like a reasonable business decision as well.  Better to lose a little than lose a lot.

As I remember, the immensely wealthy people at LTC lost a lot of that wealth same as at Amaranth and other hedge funds that screwed up and blew up -- on the order of $5 Billion see
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-Term_Capital_Management

I think they'd hardly call that a free ride at public expense.

 It's not a shock that removing a large, risk tolerant player from the system might cause some increases in prices back to where they would have been had they not been there in the first place.  Things cost what they cost.  blaming them for volatility going up on emerging market debt because they were no longer there to absorb the risk cheaply while decrying their methods seems a bit cheeky.  

All the Feds did was try to organize an orderly liquidation.  that's exactly what I want my govt to do.  Minimize the shock to the system.  When it is done without govt funds, even better.  If that helps rich folk at the same time it helps the rest of us, no problem.  shitting on the rich is another form of discrimination.

Conflating a flawed investment strategy with crooked accounting also seems over the top.  LTC didn't hide their losses a la Enron.  They just put on massively leveraged trades and were wrong.  They should have been better regulated and not allowed to have such a leveraged position if it put the overall system in such risk.

by HiD on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 02:21:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Flawed investment strategy rather than some level of dishonesty? That's a matter of perspective. I would argue that given the amount of leverage LTC was required to expose themselves to in order to deliver the returns its investors required, its failure was a near inevitability. Did it on paper have a solid hedge strategy? Yes, but on paper, Stalin's Soviet Union was also a worker's paradise.

Moral hazard, on the other hand? That is not a matter of perspective. And in this regard, at least in the case of so-called crooked accounting scandals, there is no issue of moral hazard, since steps have been subsequently made and many of the party involved given prison sentences. Not so in the case of LTC.

As for the wealthy investors behind LTC, did they take a bath? Well, that depends on what you mean by bath. The principals did come out with a loss, this is true, but far less of a loss than if they had been left to their own devices, which would have wiped many of them out, and remember, we are talking almost exclusively the very wealthy here. In a country where a major illness will cause a middle-class family to potentially lose their home, the moral content of the difference in treatment is reprehensible. Remember that many of these same investors whose losses were cut are the same sorts of folks who insist that markets solve all ills, that self-regulation is optimal and that the only noble goal of the corporation is, in Friedman's immortal words, to make money for its shareholders, screw social responsibilty, loyalty to home markets, workers be damned.

But one of the things that LTC shows is that what is good for the goose clearly is not good for the gander.

As for the indirect effects, I don't know if we're talking the same thing. I'm talking about emerging market volatility, of the sort that hurts workers in those markets. One day, a plant in Argentina is churning out goods, and the next, its door closes, often simply for want of net orking capital. As for the insurance company returns, it's more of a portfolio analysis problem, wherein the PMs at major insurers were managing to appropriate risk level along the efficient frontier that was being arguably, esp for their intents and purposes, distorted by LTCM's (and similar) investment strategy (your wiki link actually somewhat speaks to this when talking of the S&P 500 gamma that the massively levered LTC was basically making a market in). In this case, I am not simply saying, as you imply, that "prices simply went back to where they should have". I am saying that folks buying such insurance products had their returns impaired, as a direct result of LTC's market behavior, and for which they were not compensated.

And in any event, the fed will do exactly what, in your opinion, when MBS markets start getting really hammered and the inevitable ARM crisis bites the non-wealthy? Yup, that's right, a lot of hand-wringing, that's where my money is.

Let's not forget why the Fed intervened: on the heels of first a peso crisis in Mexico, then a currency crisis throughout Asia, we find ourselves, not long after Warren Greenspan's "irrational exuberance" statement, confronted with a rouble crisis, the crisis that triggered LTC's failure. Bailing out LTC was as much an attempt to calm frazzled markets, generally speaking, as much as it was an assist to the folks who brought us LTC in the first place. Fed action on behalf of bond markets, and on behalf of equity markets. Now, when the fed starts intervening on behalf of low-income housing markets, then I'll grant you that "minimizing shocks to the system" is a noble goal.

But they only tend to minimize such shocks on behalf of one particular class. And on this larger point, of course, you are correct, there is quite a lot of discrimination viz. the wealthy.

But counter to where you appear to be going with this thought, it should be clear that this discrimination is virtually always to their benefit.


The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 04:32:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
An incorrect trading strategy (the convergence blew up in their faces) is not the same as lying about your real profitability to keep your stock puffed up so that you can use that stock as currency to buy other companies or to use as collateral for loans.  

It's not illegal to be wrong.  period.  Now I completely agree the market regulators need to make sure no company takes on so much risk that their capital base can evaporate in a blink and leave counterparties high and dry or expose critical markets to excess vol because of defaults.  You seem to want people put in jail for making a bad market call.  

Your words lead me to believe you have your mind made up that investing is immoral or evil.  If that's your point of reference, I think we'll continue to talk past each other.

LTC investors got nothing back IIRC.  Your argument seems to imply Lloyds type unlimited liability for investors.  You cannot lose more than your investment in these things.  The hands off investors have no responsibility for black box strategies that go wrong.  While they were eager for above average returns, they knew they were getting a high risk deal but capped at losing the entire investment only.

People buying insurance now have to pay for REAL market volatility exposure costs.  Not those based on LTC squashing vol with a flawed strategy.  Can't have it both ways -- damning them for taking all that risk on while complaining that now that they are gone others have to bear their own risk.

enough.  I just don't think we share much common ground on economic outlook.

by HiD on Thu Nov 16th, 2006 at 04:16:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Your words lead me to believe you have your mind made up that investing is immoral or evil.  

I said no such thing. Investing is neither immoral, nor evil, in particular when done collectively.

What I would, on the other hand, offer up as immoral, is a value system which rewards rent over a fair wage for a fair day's pay. Or which depends on the idleness of a large portion of its workforce to stay "efficient" and "competitive". Or which gives preferential treatment to risk-takers when they happen to be wealthy, but withholds such preference when they are not, which is demonstrated by the LTC case study.

Like I said, I too want access to bundles of borrowed cash, well beyond my own paid in capital, that I can then lever into huge bets on www.poker.net, then lose it all and not be expected to cough up what I borrowed.

Seems to me, given the way bankruptcy works in Europe and, recently, the US, that I can't get away with that so simply. Looks like I wouldn't have an asset left to my name in this case. Of course, if I were LTC, this would be an entirely different matter...

That you presume such value judgments on my part says far more about you, I'm afraid, than it does about me.

If that's your point of reference, I think we'll continue to talk past each other.

I agree we will, but not for the reasons I suspect you presume.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Fri Nov 17th, 2006 at 03:37:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Or which gives preferential treatment to risk-takers when they happen to be wealthy, but withholds such preference when they are not

If you had a Nobel economist (or 2 or a 5 time WS of Poker player at hand) you could probably get money from deep pocketed investors for your black box scheme, be it convergence of emerging market risk to US treasuries or poker.  The question is "do you have a compelling business plan such that those with a storehouse of wealth are willing to back you?".  If not, then this is just whining to be blunt.  LTC had one of the Black-Scholes pair on board not to mention John Meriwether who had a long track record as a profitable bond trader.  They used that credibility to get backing.  

LTC were wrong and lost it all.  It disappeared as a hedge fund by 2001.  Perhaps the new capital of $3.5B put in by the other banks in 1998 was extracted, I've no idea, but I don't think any of those with funds in LTC in 1998 got squat.  I have no idea where you get the idea that they were rescued by the system and the investors were kept whole to any extent.    Ditto Amaranth.  Ditto a number of others -- Enron, Worldcom etc.  The only people getting any help there are the pensionholders who are getting a fraction of what they expected, but still more than nothing.  

The man ain't holding you down.  We do not depend on large numbers being unemployed to stay efficient.  4-5% may be a lot of people but it's a small percentage. I question if it's ever been lower in history as even hunter/gatherers had down time.

I don't see our system valuing rent over work.  I started out with a ragged car and about $500 bucks and a college education half paid for with merit scholarships.  Maybe I couldn't have gotten into Skull and bones, but I wasn't condemned to the life of a serf either.  Our system has inequities, but less so than anything else I see.

in particular when done collectively

Unless you include publicly traded companies in "collectivism" this looks and smells like state socialism to me.  I don't have much faith in that  based on it rapidly devolving into another system where who you are and who you know is more important than merit -- even more so than capitalism.  the USSR was utterly incompetent at producing decent goods that people wanted.  Ever flow in a Tupelov jet or riden in a East Bloc car?  Made Chrysler products of the 80's look slick.

I don't know what you expect from the bankruptcy system.  It's pretty ballsy to expect to be able to borrow money, blow it and then expect to skate free regardless of the excuse.  Your idea that the state rescued LTC is factually incorrect so your thought that you might deserve the same deal is based on a fallacy.

Our new bankruptcy laws should have had more leniency for those hurt by ill health or other unforeseen hardship(most bankrupts), but expecting those that CAN pay some back(a much much smaller number) to do so isn't all that unfair in my book.  I know too many people that live above their means.  I've little sympathy if they can't drive a BMW and eat out constantly and expect the rest of us to pay anymore.

by HiD on Fri Nov 17th, 2006 at 11:52:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't understand how you make this work in the real world.

Why would managers and staff wish to be managing partners receiving a share of the gross revenues? And it's not AFTER but at the same time.

Fixed costs must be covered FIRST.  Suppliers get a bit grumpy if they are paid in %'s of nothing.

If there is anything left over I can see where managment and investors can be paid in percentages of that totalling 100% at the same time.  But if the pie is too small, and the Chunnel has proven to be a dog, why would management hang around to be paid a pittance?  And why would investors accept very low end perpetual bond yields in a venture that has been a dog for decades?

by HiD on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 06:07:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Question on channel tunnel in general, not really a reply to this comment:

Is the channel tunnel situation another example of an attempt to have what ought to be public infrastructure privately owned? As in, there is "societal utility" in having this infrastructure exist, but not if it is (or it cannot be) operated profitably? Why is this tunnel not publicly owned infrastructure? (Which can be run at a "loss", like roads?) Or should the thing never have been built?

by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 06:17:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
but one could argue the ferries worked fine too.  The Chunnel was just too expensive so the governments had higher priorities for limited tax revenues.  They were probably still smarting from all the cash they flushed down a rathole with the Concorde.  And Maggie was in charge about then IIRC.

I like it myself based on my one experience.  I can't imagine why anyone would fly London-->Paris with it as an alternative.  Hopefully they got some decent food on board since 1996.  

by HiD on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 06:23:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Managers and staff ARE most of the fixed costs left in Eurotunnel SA.

Any other "fixed costs" would be offered the same choice of coming "inside the box" on a revenue share instead. And yes, these fixed costs would have to be paid before managers and staff if they remained "outside the box".

Sure the Chunnel has been a dog, and naturally when you raise the money you do so on a realistic projection of income, bearing in mind what is about to happen to it when guarantees run out etc etc.

But....

If anyone thinks that Eurotunnel's revenues are going to decline - even in the medium term - as the energy crunch starts to hit airlines, then I think they deserve everything they are NOT going to get.

Why do you think Goldman are up to their ears in this, and prepared to risk their own money? They are some of the savviest investors on the planet IMHO.

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 06:19:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
probably is a good investment.  Once you wipe out the original investors/bond holders it probably does make a positive cash flow.  

I agree GS is one of the smartest investors going, but you might want to check on their investment in AMF bowling.   I got stuck with a piece of that in the mid 90's when they let us peons invest alongside the partners in some funds.  Blew up and went to zero in about 18 months....

Your phrase

naturally when you raise the money you do so on a realistic projection of income

strikes me as naive to be blunt.  the original investors weren't sold shares based on fraud, just really bad planning and projections.  Hindsight is 20/20 clearly.  The structures you describe just don't seem to have any better way to handle major f---ups than traditional structures.

I'd guess the biggest costs for Eurotunnel are energy, maintenance, replacing rolling stock, and hourly staff.  "Management" salaries are probably a very low %.  Maybe you can find managers who'll work on a punt.  I just doubt it.  Kids gotta eat and the Ferrari needs it's 15K service.

As for suppliers of energy and rail cars??  They'll take cash please.

by HiD on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 06:34:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In the late 1970s, I was involved with the rescue / yuppification of a stately old neighborhood that had, over the years, become a very ugly slum.  As the project proceeded, many of us started to look carefully at the title histories of the various properties.  What was most interesting was how many of them had been through bankruptcy proceedings.

The lesson I came away with is that properties that remained valuable over time--in this case so valuable that boarded up hulks were worth very expensive restoration efforts--were those properties that were so overbuilt in the first place they ended up in bankruptcy court.  In some cases, multiple times.

It was with that experience in mind that I watched the Chunnel being built.  The idea that it would ever be "profitable" was beyond amusing.  On the other hand, I could easily foresee the day when both nations would point with great pride at their accomplishment.  Because except for the original investors, no one cares about the petty finances so long as final product is worth doing.


"Remember the I35W bridge--who needs terrorists when there are Republicans"

by techno (reply@elegant-technology.com) on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 02:00:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I see your point.  And made a similar one somewhere in this diary.  The Chunnel does have value and probably has a solid positive cash flow now as long as you don't have to return the original capital or service that debt.  Picking up other people's mistakes at 30 cts on the dollar is a recipe for success.

But if billions are going to be flushed down a hole, I can think of a number of things I'd prefer to a rail tunnel under the English Channel.  Society pays for these big cockups no matter how the financing is set up.  IIRC, thousands of ordinary French citizens held/hold stock, pension funds held bonds etc.

by HiD on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 02:30:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The lesson I came away with is that properties that remained valuable over time--in this case so valuable that boarded up hulks were worth very expensive restoration efforts--were those properties that were so overbuilt in the first place they ended up in bankruptcy court.  In some cases, multiple times.

It was with that experience in mind that I watched the Chunnel being built.  The idea that it would ever be "profitable" was beyond amusing.  On the other hand, I could easily foresee the day when both nations would point with great pride at their accomplishment.  Because except for the original investors, no one cares about the petty finances so long as final product is worth doing.

The Chunnel does have value and probably has a solid positive cash flow now as long as you don't have to return the original capital or service that debt.

This is making my head hurt. Is there no way that projects worth doing can be financed without bankrupting the initial investors? Is this the best we can come up with?

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 03:20:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This is making my head hurt. Is there no way that projects worth doing can be financed without bankrupting the initial investors? Is this the best we can come up with?

Yes, as a matter of fact.  Great projects have almost always bankrupted someone.  Investors make money building parking garages and mini-malls.  But if you want to build something that makes your grandchildren point with pride, be prepared to lose your shirt.

"Remember the I35W bridge--who needs terrorists when there are Republicans"

by techno (reply@elegant-technology.com) on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 03:40:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The London Tube bankrupted most of the people involved except for whichever line it was that wasn't forbidden from being involved in land development (the Metropolitan??).
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 03:55:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That seems to be the English model: private enterprise comes up with a good idea, and when they go bankrupt or too complex it gets regulated, consolidated and nationalised. It happened not only with the tube, but also with overground public transportation systems like buses and trams, and with firefighters.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 04:08:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
exception to prove your rule.

Maybe super mega projects that inspire awe are just too far ahead of their time or promoted by visionaries that build them regardless of the honest projections of need/profit.  Dreamers are not always the best businessmen.

Other big "failures"

Panama Canal -- first try was a miserable failure but it's profitable now.

Suez canal was a mess (maybe more to political chicanery than real development errors) that relied on forced/slave labor.  Not sure I'd call that a shining success initially but it became hugely profitable.

US transcon railway??  very reliant on gifting away public land for finance. many many rail projects around the world went bankrupt yet rail lines were hugely successful in th end.

by HiD on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 04:37:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The internet?

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill
by r------ on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 04:47:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
US govt paid for most of the development no?

and billions were lost in the fiber optic bubble in the 90's.

by HiD on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 05:16:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, and that would certainly be a point I would make.

This tends to get lost in the current market fundamentalism mantra.

Same goes for quite a lot of basic research, the fruits of which tends to find themselves in the portfolios of Big Pharma's shareholders, among those of others....

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 05:42:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I fully support publically financed research.  Basic research just doesn't have an immediate enough return for capitalism to fund it.  But only the wildest winger hates all public research.  The debate is how much is a good investment.

Universities are getting much better at getting a return on their patent portfolio.  And I'm going to guess most new pharmaceuticals are created in private labs.

How would you capture "profit" on publically financed research?  to me, the whole point of seeding new technologies is to get the ball rolling and to create centers of learning.  Taking the rudiments and creating a marketable product does deserve a reward as well.

by HiD on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 06:30:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
To link up to a previous discussion of debt and equity...
If the project defaults and the bank is owned debt, the bank presumably gets any remaining assets and [simplifying] liquidates them for cash. Now, either the assets are worth something, in which case the default brought about by debt is actually an economic evil and allowing the enterprise to cntinue functioning would generate more money for the bank; or they are worth nothing in which case what benefit does the bank derive from getting the assets in case of default?
And to a parallel comment of redstar's
One day, a plant in Argentina is churning out goods, and the next, its door closes, often simply for want of net orking capital.
which is what I called the negative economic effects of debt on the downside in the other thread. The positive economic effect" was, according to Jerome, cheaper financing.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 04:52:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Banks don't liquidate profitable concerns.  They re-sell them to new, more competent owners.

I doubt any really economic concern can't find working capital.  If they are churning out buggy whips or $50 dollar workboots with competition at $25, it's no surprise no one wants to throw good money after bad.

Or if they are already so mired in debt that they are doomed to be forclosed upon, why would anyone dump new capital in without a restructuring led by those already owed?  

It's easy to rail against lenders and debt, but the plant's owners had to get startup money somewhere. I'm no believe in the idea that society as a whole will give up their excess work product (savings) without a return.  The other choice is knocking off early and going to the beach.

by HiD on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 05:25:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The issue is not necessarily one of competence, but one of excessive debt burden. So, when the original owner goes belly up the concern is sold for less than the outstanding debt to new owners and the bank loses the difference.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 05:31:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
excessive debt implies incompetence somewhere along the line.  If you spent so much money building the factory or in using an inefficient processes that it can't make a competive product it's not the debt's fault.

This line of thinking seems to assume the debt just appeared magically.

And usually in these situations, the biggest losers are the stockholders.  They get paid last.  Bond holders/banks go first as they get lower returns in exchange for greater assurance of being repaid.

by HiD on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 05:38:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
but if the excessive debt is used to finance greater returns for wealthy hedge fund investors, this is not incompetence, and a fed-orchestrated bail-out is appropriate?

just checking to make sure we have all the ducks in the same row on this thread...

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 05:44:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Why assume excess debt is the product of Legree Hedge fund keeping down the people?  Just as likely that the people's pension fund got sold a bill of goods and invested with wankers.  

Every entity with money isn't Satan in an Armani suit.  How could Jerome build windfarms if there were no capital to tap?

you seem to have a big problem with LTC.  The investors lost their money.  The bankers that "bailed them out" to use your term that I don't agree with, pumped in some cash to minimize their own losses. They didn't do it for charity's sake.  Meanwhile, the capital markets didn't go through a bad reaction with lots of volatile swings.  Those swings make the big boys money, not the little guy.  

by HiD on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 06:17:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Why assume excess debt is the product of Legree Hedge fund keeping down the people

Misrepresenting my position. But as a point of fact, LTC's scheme did require massive levels of leverage in order to work. Not all funds do, but this one did, it was intrinsic to the play they were making, in particular the lt yield convergence play.

you seem to have a big problem with LTC.  The investors lost their money.

Not exactly. If I borrow take $100K of my own money and borrow from a bank $2M more to play online poker on behalf of my family and friends, and lose it all, I'm out $2.1M, and so are my family and friends. Not the case at LTC.

Those swings make the big boys money, not the little guy.

Indeed they do. And bailing the big boys out when they on rare occasions don't make that money is precisely the problem, and precisely what happened at LTC. I mean, you do know what the composition of their losses was, as well as their strategy, right?

Not sure you and I are talking from the same page here. Think it's a class issue, you're either in the investor class, or you're not.

Tell you what though, when the fed starts brokering these sorts of bailouts on behalf of more than just the big boys, I'll get a bit less sceptical.

But not before.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 06:56:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We know in what direction the latest US bankruptcy reform went...

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 06:59:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Maybe the bank's incompetence? Maybe everyone was too greedy in their return expectations?

If you're going to get lower returns in the end, just get a share of revenue and be done with the debt, the defaulting and the bankruptcy. The only upside I can see in bankruptcy is that it forces the first set of investors to allow the second set of investors to get involved.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 05:50:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If you're going to get lower returns in the end, just get a share of revenue and be done with the debt, the defaulting and the bankruptcy. The only upside I can see in bankruptcy is that it forces the first set of investors to allow the second set of investors to get involved

no investor plans on getting a lower return than advertised.  And most of the time you don't.  Even junk bonds don't default at rates over 10% IIRC.  I agree with you that investors can be as blindly optimistic and wrong as the promoters though.

Taking equity implies a greater risk/reward profile expectation.  works for some, not for others.

There is no joy in bankruptcy.  no one really wins except the lawyers.  It's a last alternative

by HiD on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 06:11:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It seems that a lot of economic is in the end about managing expectations. The problem is that everyone expects to make higher than average returns and average returns get overestimated.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 06:29:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
no argument there.

the whole problem to me is finding a way to distribute limited resources in the most efficient way to do the most good.  State directed economies were a flop and capitalism has it's own flaws.  I guess if there was a perfect system we'd have already found it.

by HiD on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 06:32:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Early (1750-1850) economists struggled with the problem of "the end (or stationary) state of Capitalism", because they thought continued growth couldn't be sustained. So maybe there is a Market economy that doesn't rest on debt and growth, but I don't know whether that would be called "capitalism".

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Nov 16th, 2006 at 03:14:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
An entertaining movie on the subject.

Here's an article on the same phenomenon.

There are going economic concerns which lack working capital. It all depends on one's definition of "going concern". And, when you expose an economy to greater volatility in capital flows, this is where definitions diverge.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 05:52:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That is where usage rights are better than property.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 05:59:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm using "liquidate" in the sense of "convert into liquid assets" (i.e., money), not "dissolve". The banks aren't generally interested in owning stuff (or, in any case, it's not their "core competency"), so they end up owning the assets of a company because of debt they'll want to sell them.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Nov 16th, 2006 at 03:20:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
TGV and French nuclear power plant program (thanks VGE!).

The Öresund bridge.

The James Bay Project.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 05:37:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
public money so returns not an issue?  

I know nothing about ownership of the TGV.  Is it public or private?   I'm betting the French nukes were state owned/built or state monopoly owned/built (EDF).

the others are all govt funded no?

I'm not saying govt's don't bankrupt themselves, but I think the original point was that giant private projects generally bankrupt someone.

by HiD on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 05:48:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Aha, silly me, I should have read the thread better.

Ignore everything I said.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 05:50:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And our governments are so well schooled in the principles of economics (hat tip to Keynes) that they have convinced themselves that public money is a bad, bad thing and infrastructure must be financed with private money.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 05:53:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
we have lots of public projects of great magnitude.  Some are well run, others are dogs.

the dogs get lots of press so the Right(sic)wing tries to force things into the private route where they can skim even more money.

Examples -- Boston's Big Dig.  looks to be really improving traffic.  massively over budget and has quality issues.  Public funds with plenty of problems.

Successes -- Tennessee Valley Authority.  Interstate Highway system.  NASA.   Were these graft and incompetence free?  no.  Does Big business avoid similar levels of incompetence -- only a republican or other crazy person would believe that.  I can tell you some great horror stories that the Big Oilco I worked for created.  All nicely polished up so the investors didn't notice too much....

by HiD on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 06:25:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If you build something that's going to last a hundred years, what does it matter if it loses money in the first ten?

Plenty of time to make it up.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 05:41:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Presumably it matters to you that you go bankrupt?

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 05:42:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The funny thing being off course that if the project starts making money later there was no reason at all to go bankrupt, only shortsightedness on the hands of the lenders who thought losing money ten years in a row was a good reason to liqiudate you.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 05:49:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Exactly the reason why debt is wrong.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 05:51:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
uh no

plenty of time to make it up implies a zero interest cost of capital.  Care to loan me a few hundred K?  I promise to give it back in 50 years with some return, maybe.

making it up after I'm dead doesn't interest most people.  That's the role of govt funding not private sector.  And the source of tension between small govt types and bigger govt types.

by HiD on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 05:52:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, of course. I misunderstood that we were talking about private projects, like I wrote above.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 06:57:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Of course projects worth doing can be done without bankrupting investors.  Happens most of the time.

the point here (I think) is even monumental screwups have some value.

by HiD on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 04:15:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
all the time, huh?

OK, name three projects that came in on time and budget, that have made their owners money continuously from at least the second year, that incorporate at least one never-before-tried idea, had absolutely no public funding or research, and are so spectacular, they have appeared on Modern Marvels or can sell postcards at a tourist kiosk.

Sorry I have to be so specific but faith-based economics had an expiration date last Tuesday.

"Remember the I35W bridge--who needs terrorists when there are Republicans"

by techno (reply@elegant-technology.com) on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 05:47:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
that incorporate at least one never-before-tried idea, had absolutely no public funding or research, and are so spectacular, they have appeared on Modern Marvels

think you can put any more restrictions on the list???

I'm not saying innovative new things happen every day with great success, only that successful projects happen all over.  Everything that happens doesn't involve people going bankrupt.

Sorry I have to be so specific but faith-based economics had an expiration date last Tuesday.

manners matter.....

by HiD on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 05:59:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Let's see if I can do Cook-Jutsu...

Take the case of Dresden. They sold 47,000 apartments for $1.75 bn. That is a paltry $37k per apartment. A 5% return on that investment is $155 per apartment. I don't know what rent is charged for this housing, but I can't imagine not being able to make that amount after administration and maintenance costs. Dresden is not that poor.

You can raise the same amount of money by selling 1m 'equity shares' for $1750 each. The city retains the ownership of the housing units, but an agreed fraction of the rent revenue [say, sufficient to make the 5% return with the current rent] goes to the owners of the equity shares.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 04:54:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
selling below "value" in the marketplace doesn't seem too appealing to me regardless of how you do it.  If they are worth more than $40K, hold them or sell them piecmeal for full value.  

If it's a way to get out from under a huge bill to refurbish them and maintain them, $37K may not be such a bargain and $1750 equity shares might be unworkable in terms of covering the other cash flows needed.  There may not be any leftover cash flow after paying the bills needed to keep the investment maintained.  If the 5% return is guaranteed no matter what, it's just a govt bond in my mind.  no need to associate it with rents particularly.

by HiD on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 05:09:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The point of Chris Cook's schemes is that the 5% is not guaranteed. You are guaranteed a share of the revenues, which can be set do that as of today they are 5%. Then you get into rent controls, inflation adjustment of rents, vacancy rates, and so on.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 05:20:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
how is this really different than just selling stock and declaring dividends?
by HiD on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 05:35:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Not really.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 05:36:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The 5% return on 37k would be $1850 per annum. You're already talking 200-250 euros (dollars?) per month in rental payments, which still seems possible but is non trivial if it's an economically depressed area.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 05:12:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Last I checked, 1800 / 12 = 150.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 05:18:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Just posted a Sustainable Development Diary which is relevant.

Point is you don't give a 5% return, but you set the Rentals to rise with an agreed measure of inflation to give an index-linked return , maybe 2 or 3% therefore.

Which is not unreasonable even in an economically depressed area.

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 05:21:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I did mean 155 per month, sorry.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 05:24:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I just rounded up above to cover maintenance and costs.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 05:38:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Wikipedia: Dresden economic facts and figures
The socialist enterprises had been inefficient already before German reunification and were not competitive in the German social market-economy. This collapse of economy caused an unemployment rate of about 18 to 19 % in the early 1990s. The rate was lowered to 13 to 15 % but is still relatively high today. Nevertheless, Dresden is the city that has developed the most effectively in all of East Germany and has raised its GDP per capita to 26,200 Euro, which is equal to the GDP per capita of some poor West German communities. In the discussion of alternatives in the policy of promoting the weak states of the former GDR, Dresden is often cited as an example of successfully subsidising the better-developed centres and regions.

With about 20 % of its employees having a university degree and the research institutes in background, the economy differs from the economy of low-priced subcontracting that is often criticized in East Germany. Nevertheless, the economy of Dresden is under extensive public funding. The rate of highly-qualified staff is also high because lower-qualified employable people are often unemployed.

€26200 is $33500 as of today, so $37k for an apartment seems very cheap.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 05:30:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I was just looking around, and this site (German) quotes a vacancy rate of 18% for these properties, as opposed to around 5% for Dresden as a whole.

The fact is that what we're experiencing right now is a top-down disaster. -Paul Krugman
by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 06:02:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The cash-strapped eastern German city of Dresden was the first to make headlines in March of this year with the $1.75 billion sale of 47,000 apartments to the New York based private equity firm Fortress. At a stroke, Dresden was able to free itself of debt.

How long will it last, and what will they sell off when they find themselves in debt again?

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 04:33:00 AM EST
Hopefully not the local energy company. We did that here in Uppsala, and since it was the combined heat and power plant powering the district heating system (a natural monopoly) heating prices spiked incredibly. Anyone with the most basic understanding of economics would have seen that would happen.

Ironically, the municipal energy company was sold to the state owned company Vattenfall. So the robber baron profits go straight into the state treasury in Stockholm. We might get a regional parliament in the future, and then I'll push nationalisation (regionalisation?) of the plant without compensation for Vattenfall (they have already been compensated by being a robber baron monopolist for a couple of years).

Then sad thing is that we could have sold housing instead, which the public has no business in owning anyway, to get out of debt. But we didn't do that.

Now, the politicians have gotten us into debt again by building an incredibly ugly 50 million euro opera house (almost as ugly as the Freiburg library actually). And they'll finance this by, that's right, selling housing.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 11:20:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
wait a year or so and pass rent control laws and force th e owners to maintain the property properly.

I would hope they offered the properties to the tenants first.

by HiD on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 04:38:47 AM EST
I would hope they offered the properties to the tenants first.

At $37k per apartment, it would look like Dresden didn't.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 04:55:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
the cheapest thing you can buy here would be $250K+.  Even a shitty house in a slummy area would set you back almost $500K....

but I'm not looking to move to Dresden from Hawaii either..

by HiD on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 04:59:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Rents in Germany are controlled pretty strictly anyway: for example, they are pegged to the local average rent for housing of comparable quality and location, and landlords can only pass on a fixed portion of improvements.

Condoization will be the big fear. This is low-income housing, and very few of the tenants will be able to buy (even though the price will probably be quite modest).

The fact is that what we're experiencing right now is a top-down disaster. -Paul Krugman

by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 04:56:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
if the rents are controlled and it's low income housing so I suspect not that attractive even if re-furbed and upgraded, how would the investors make a buck?

Are these towns pressed for housing such that playing the condo game is a big winner?

If it's low income housing and the state will have to subsidize the rents after privitization arent they just trading cash flow on debt for cash flow to to the low income?

by HiD on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 05:02:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
a) Haven't a clue. That's the part that eludes me entirely.

b) In the major metropolises of the west (Hamburg, Dusseldorf, Cologne, Frankfurt, Munich) certainly; in the east, somewhere between not so much and you gotta be kidding, depending on the locality. But what else could the investor possibly have in mind?

c) Depends on how the housing was financed; under one model, the state provides preferred financing and the landlord (often a cooperative, but can be anyone) is then limited in the rent he can charge; the limitation then lapses after a certain period of time. I presume this has been priced in. The state has already paid.

The fact is that what we're experiencing right now is a top-down disaster. -Paul Krugman

by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 05:59:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
many of these flats are absolute dumps that no one would really want to live in.  18% vacancy rate is a death spiral as the vacant ones will be trashed by vandals etc.

The city has no money to fix them up so their investment is headed for zero value over time as they rot away.

The investors are going to be allowed to redevelop with rent controls but with enough escalation that rents will rise over time relative to the mean.  The state will subsidize the poor, but in cash rather than physical housing so it will be easier to slowly cut their subsidy putting them in a squeeze.  

Welcome to America.....

by HiD on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 06:15:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In Paris, the big insurance companies and other similar real estate owners have been selling the residential buildings in block to investors who then re-sell them on a retail basis. The inhabitants (who until then rented) are offered to buy their appartments, of course, but many cannot afford to (in many parts of Paris, it's cheaper to rent than to buy) and are forced to move out, sometimes pretty far.

In come in the well off (2 income youngish managers/professional families) and out goes the social diversity of the neighborood (the poorer, the old are kicked out).

It's become widespread enough that it's become a political issue as well.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 05:16:25 AM EST
Gentrification.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 05:19:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And the result is the same everywhere: clean, crisp and boring, the suburbanization of the city, its transformation into a shopping mall. Away with the poor. The rich want your apartments and can afford to pay anything for them. So get out and reinvent yourself: become rich like them. They call it the market, a moral imperative, an organic, god-given creation which appeared on the eighth day according to a newly discovered, ancient manuscript of Genesis as translated by Tony Blair and friends. What a piece of shortsighted asininity for a municipality to sell off its supply of low-income housing! You see, I live in such housing. People say I pay too little rent. I say they pay too much. Who is right? The market? That self-serving human invention if there ever was one.
by Quentin on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 05:56:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And in ten years time they start whining that they can't find anyone to work in the shops or restaurants or clean their expensive apartments because the poor who are willing to do those jobs can neither afford to live near them or travel to them.

Pure genius.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 06:21:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
welcome to Hawaii

business is whining big time that they can't get staff even at $10/hr (double the Fed min wage).  You can't live here easily on double that.  Many many couples with kids work 3 or 4 jobs to hold it together.  But tourists keep pouring in willing to pay $400/night for hotel rooms.  I

and others are willing to pay $2 million for smallish wood frame houses on postage stamp sized lots or condos with a view.  Our current tax policy is really concentrating too much wealth in too few hands.

by HiD on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 02:37:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The German municipalities have been up against it for years.

Way back in the day of full employment, an arrangement was made whereby the municipalities would get the whole of the trade tax - and no other revenue - and in return would assume responsibility for all welfare cases. There are some other revenue sources, but they are minor. And municipalities are not allowed to impose any other types of levies (e.g. a sales tax).

However, full employment passed, welfare roles swelled (in part because the unemployment authorities would declare able-bodied persons as "unemployable" after a couple of years) and municipalities slid into debt (accelerated in some cases by incompetence and/or corruption).

The eastern German municipalities entered into this situation on reunification, only to watch their local economic base crumble and working population dissipate.

In all this time the precarious situation of the municipalities has been ignored by state and federal governments. The Hartz IV legislation relieved the municipalities of a great part of the welfare burden by giving the Federal Labor Agency responsibility for all able-bodied persons, but they're still stuck in a debt trap.

So yeah, this sucks, but imo the blame doesn't rest with the cities.

The fact is that what we're experiencing right now is a top-down disaster. -Paul Krugman

by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 05:34:55 AM EST


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