Welcome to European Tribune. It's gone a bit quiet around here these days, but it's still going.

Libération - Part 2 (The Beginnings)

by afew Tue Nov 28th, 2006 at 09:38:07 AM EST

So: in the beginning was May '68, and most of the most radical leftists of the movement grouped into a new Maoist party, the Gauche Prolétarienne (GP), led by Pierre Victor (Benny Lévy) and Alain Geismar. Despite extensive re-reading and commentary of Lenin's What Is To Be Done?, the GP wasn't entirely sure what was to be done to bring about the revolution. Should they be an intellectual avant-garde party? Should they be military, and organize armed struggle? Wouldn't Mao tell them to get down to grass roots and join the proletariat, where they would foment the rise of new workers' movements like the yeast in bread?

The GP, in its five-year existence, remained torn by these questions. In 1969 they decided they wouldn't be avant-gardists (though they were mostly intellectuals), and would go down the grassroots road. So the militants were sent to work in factories, while others joined the peasantry in the fields. When the uprising didn't happen, the militants were called back out again - but they brought new working-class recruits with them, and there was more and more talk of armed struggle.

This was when the main revolutionary leftist movement in France decided not to use violence. A former GPist I knew gave me an account, a year or two later, that went like this:

There was a meeting at the top. We went out [of Paris] to a quiet spot [my memory says Meudon, but it could be wrong - afew]. It was parkland, with grass and woods. All the honchos went into a copse while we footsoldiers stayed on guard all around. Someone had a football so we started a kick-about. It went on for hours. They were in there arguing the toss, we were out there playing football and getting hungry.

At last they came out. The decision had been taken. We would not become a clandestine terrorist organisation.

How weighty decisions may sometimes be taken.... So? Read on for more...


Shortly afterwards, the GP announced its decision to break up. They'd pretty much gone through the options in five years. Remained... Er, more bourgeois methods that did not state the revolution specifically as goal. Like attempting to raise mass consciousness using modern methods of communication.

The GP had a newspaper, La Cause du peuple. Jean-Paul Sartre was its figurehead. Sartre agreed with Pierre Victor (who was to become his personal secretary), and another GP leader, Serge July, that a popular daily newspaper, not a tabloid but smaller than a broadsheet so it could become "the daily of the Métro", was the kind of new initiative that was needed.

A fairly large group of former GPists got behind the idea.

LIBERATION I

The official N° 1 of Libération appeared on the 18th April, 1973, with Sartre's name on the front page as director (legally responsible/liable for the publication under French law).

It states themes that would be Libé's throughout the seventies.

It shows the student, the intellectual, standing with the ordinary people of France (including immigrants).

It says (main headline) Take your newspaper in hand.

It says France is on the move, let's free the press.

It appeals for money, since it will have no advertising and has no bank behind it.

It announces Towards a new journalism. Of this new journalism it says that it will serve a new movement of ideas that is emerging:

"... around a common refusal of an authoritarian conception of life, and around a common hope for a democracy that rejects the exploitation of labour, daily violence in the name of profit, the violence of men against women, repressed sexuality, racism, the sullied environment..."

There are more hints here of social democracy of a New Left kind than of Marxist-Leninist ideology. Yet Libé in the early years hung on to a dual grassroots approach that no doubt owed a lot to earlier factory-floor activism (though not everyone working on the paper was a former GPist):

  • this was a newspaper for and by its readers. Local "Libération committees" were set up across France, with volunteer stringers to forward stories, and there was supposed to be constant contact between the committees and the editorial staff in Paris. Parisianism was to be actively resisted by use of the committees and the creation of regional editions of the paper (one was attempted in Marseille, another, in Lyon, lasted for some time);
  • it would be a transparent newspaper in terms of its accounts, management, internal disputes - nothing would be hidden. The buzzword at the time was "auto-gestion" or workers' control. Libé would be run by everyone who worked there. Debates, meetings, general assemblies - everyone could speak there. Decisions would be taken collectively.
  • it was important to have an open, transparent, grassroots daily, because it would be a tool for direct democracy. Through it, the people would exercise greater control over their elected representatives, and call them to account throughout their mandates, not just once every five years.

Money, Honey

Starting up without money was hard, and on many days the paper didn't make it to the press. By the end of the first year it was all the same up and running, if not smoothly. There were frequent appeals for money, and discussions of whether there should be advertising or whether a bank should be approached for finance. Sartre writes:

We have refused to become a commercial and industrial enterprise.






Anti-advertising feelings ran high. A discussion page was illustrated with graffiti-adorned advertising posters from the Métro. This one, from a famous 1970s series of ads for BNP bank, says:

  • "Don't worry about disturbing me, I like to talk money" (official slogan)
  • "In the Kingdom of Rotten Bastards, it's the bankers who are Kings" (graffiti).

Libération Version I was published for years with no ads.

How It Went

Many of the journalists were not professionals, and learned the job as they went along. It didn't seem to matter as long as there was the collective ethos, and the grassroots contact with the readers. The "Libération committees" in fact came into being, and most of the readership felt committed to the paper. There was no Internet, so interactivity was cumbersome. Letters were published, at least a full page a day, sometimes more. An original kind of interactivity arose spontaneously when the typographers and correctors - all young women, Libé published feminist texts and musings by Sartre on sexual relations as rape, but seemed to have missed something when it came to division of labour <cough> - began adding brief comments to journalists' copy or small ads. Sometimes facetious, these were most often wry requests for a return to earth, or debunking irony. Appreciated by readers and considered to be part of l'esprit Libé, the note de la claviste (NDLC), was a feature of the newspaper in its early years.

Another "open" feature was the development of free small ads. On a full page or two, not hidden away in small print, these were read by all readers and came to be a kind of bulletin board (in which the typographers joined with many NDLC). Messages were sent and announcements made, invitations put out and problems shared. Romantic and sexual encounters were sought under the heading Chéri(e)s, and the paper's interest in prison conditions led to a Taulards section for prisoners.

Internal debates were brought up, under the transparency rule. They concerned (apart from finance) organisation and methods, ethics, and questions thrown up by international events - dialogue on Israel/Palestine/Lebanon was difficult - and by the liberation movements of the time, women's lib, gay lib, everyone's sexual lib. Here the differences were sharpest, between the more ideological leftists and the counter-culture freaks, those who had hopes of Libé becoming the daily of the working class and the libertarians (European sense). Not to omit the ambitious social democrats...

And tension grew later in the seventies as the paper's journalism became more professional (in-depth exploration of social themes, excellent special correspondent work on the international scene), while the libertarian, alternative, punk-revisited side boiled over in inventive graphics and lay-out, and the expression of fairly extreme points of view on sexuality, in particular. That might have gone on working. It certainly produced an original newspaper. The problem was that it betrayed a lack of vision of where the paper was heading, and, worse still, irreconcilable opposition of beliefs about what the paper was all about.

The fighting got worse. There were problems with the courts over obscenity and incitement to immoral behaviour and to violence. Leading figures of the paper argued bitterly over the limits of sexual freedom and the famous il est interdit d'interdire (it is forbidden to forbid). Meanwhile worker's control gradually lost its original glimmer. Libé was selling, and, though still beset by financial problems, kept adding pages and testing supplements. The enthusiasm of the start-up, that made people willing to accept crowded conditions, inadequate technical means, and a heavy workload, quickly wore off. Supposedly open structures were in fact compartmentalised: there was no official hierarchy, but there was a power system all the same. A woman typographer did not equal a woman journalist did not equal a male journalist did not equal a member of the "direction" (which all the same had no formal power to direct...) The day-to-day production of the newspaper became more and more difficult. Tensions grew till no one really wanted to try any more. There was quite a bit of this:

Serge July and a few others had their take on a new way forward for Libé. Possibly he let things get worse so the crash would become inevitable. (July was always sure he was right: in 1969 he wrote a book called Towards Civil War, a title not everyone would have felt rock-solid about signing...).

Communications within Libé were so bad by that time, anyway, that there was no concerted opposition. In February 1981, publication ground to a halt.

The first period, the newspaper as a social experiment, was over.

:: :: :: ::

Part Three, with the history of Libé from this point up to today, will follow.

See Crisis at Libération - Part One for the current state of the newspaper.

Display:
Very enjoyable.  When you write

That might have gone on working. It certainly produced an original newspaper. The problem was that it betrayed a lack of vision of where the paper was heading, and, worse still, irreconcilable opposition of beliefs about what the paper was all about.

I like the sound of "it might have gone on working."  Do you mean it could have worked as it was--if not for X, Y, Z?  And then we get X, Y, Z as in

--"lack of vision": the vision was (I'm guessing) to be a daily paper with revolutionary (and educative) intent?  So (guessing) the irreconcilable opposition was about a revolt against what and towards what...

But...if they'd kept it going...but they couldn't because of the characters drawn into the revolutionary areas--

Supposedly open structures were in fact compartmentalised: there was no official hierarchy, but there was a power system all the same.

Somehow the story reminded me of ET--early beginnings and possible futures...great read.  Thanks.

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Tue Nov 28th, 2006 at 10:05:43 AM EST
It might have gone on working

I don't know. Too many imponderables, too many things I don't know to be able to say. I knew people who were working at different levels at Libé, but I wasn't in there myself.

A rough idea: many people working at Libé came straight out of serious activism with a revolutionary party in which formal hierarchy was not in evidence, but where in fact everyone knew "who was who". In other words, it's likely the open, collective experiment was a bit twisted from the start. It's not enough to have supposedly equal relations and to have the right to speak on equal terms. Human beings form ranks and power relations before you can say Jack Rabbit. In this case, they probably entered into the experiment with a lot of the power relations already interiorised.

So, after several years of sacrifice - very hard work, low pay - the level of frustration and poor communication led many to leave, and others to care less and less. I suspect Serge July and those who agreed with him about the need for an enterprise structure with a certain formal hierarchy, of having let the situation go to rot so as better to pick up the pieces when it all fell apart.

So how might it have gone on working? Only if the right framework had been built from the start. But these people believed that things came spontaneously if you got down to work on the right things in the right place - they were politically spontanéistes meaning they thought society-changing movements would grow "spontaneously" if enough people sowed the seed - and that was one of the main elements of their rationale in publishing a daily paper. Don't ask me what the "right framework" would have been. The problem is they pitched right in without discussing it. A lot of things were attempted like that in those days. Then people were surprised they didn't work.

Yes, there may be a parallel with the beginnings of ET. I can't deny the thought occurred to me :-)

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Nov 28th, 2006 at 11:48:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Spontaneously building the right framework from the start: sounds excellent!

(When is the correct moment to spontaneously do slightly-less-spontaneous things?  We find out--spontaneously!)

But that only works for a year or so?

I suppose the main point was the lack of money (and youth?.)  Those who don't need so much money and could stay youthful (money helps there too) would have more energy, enthusiasm; those who needed financial stability-over-time lost faith?  Or: being close to the ground (=also poor) is hard to maintain through timescales beyond 2-3 years without something giving (e.g. relationships, families.)

Another (OT?) thought (related to what someone--you?--wrote about Ze Chained Up Duck): were there just too many of them at Liberation?  It seems CE works by being slim and high content per page--do I have that wrong?

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Tue Nov 28th, 2006 at 12:05:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Spontaneously building the right framework from the start: sounds excellent!

Except it wasn't what I said! ;)

Lack of money was a bind for the newspaper, not so much for the individuals who worked on it, who were all willing to live lives as simple and poor (or more so) as the workers they championed. I may be wrong (in some cases) but I don't think anyone left Libé because they could get better money elsewhere or because they thought it was about time they started growing their Gross Personal Value™. That wasn't the ethos at all.

The Chained-Up Duck is very special. It's an old fixture, for one thing. It's a weekly, for another (heaps easier to get a weekly to work than a daily). And it has a special function in the French political world - everyone who wants to leak something leaks it there, so the entire political class buys it to know what's being leaked or rumoured or said about (maybe themselves). Add to that all the journalists and everyone interested in politics and public life, and you've got a big stable readership. Bingo!

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Nov 28th, 2006 at 12:29:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There had been a few steps before Libération :

  • the Gauche Prolétarienne newspaper which was named "La Cause du Peuple"

  • the first attempt to make a newspaper adressing a wider audience : "J'accuse"

  • then the creation of an alternative Press Agency : 'L'Agence de Presse Libération"

I still have many of the documents that led to the creation of Libé, including the n°0... If you want, I might try to scan some of them.

About the choice not to become a terrorist movement: the GP had a clandestine branch which had performed some (light) terrorist actions like symbolic kidnappings. The debate was strong (remember: at that time Germany had the Rote Armee Fraction and Italy the Brigate Rosse...). The decision not to turn to terrorism was made not only at the top level (the GP was not a very hierarchical organisation), but discussed throughout the organisation. Eventually, a large meeting held in 1974 (in Issy les Moulineaux if I remember well) decided the self-dissolution of the organisation.

Some of the militants who refused to abandon the terrorist option later joined Action Directe (especially the Lyon's group).

 

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

by Melanchthon on Tue Nov 28th, 2006 at 10:36:16 AM EST
Thanks for adding background I left out (I have already cut this history into two parts where one was originally intended!)

You're quite right about J'Accuse and L'Agence de Presse Libération. If you've got anything fun to scan (like the N° 0, which I think had a different logo?), please do.

The debate about, first, armed revolutionary struggle Type One (meaning the revolutionaries provide military framework and guns for the people), then, when that quickly appeared out of the question, Type 2 (a clandestine terrorist movement of the RAF sort), was indeed held at all levels of the organisation and taken extremely seriously (according to friends who were involved).

I made light of it in my introduction, but Type 2 was a cold, realistic possibility. There was no lack of "soldiers" capable of bringing it about (Again, based on accounts from a number of sources that I heard in '73, '74, '75). I think it would have been unutterably tragic if they had gone down that road, and I'm glad they chose otherwise. (Bar a small number, as you say, who gravitated towards Action Directe and the NAPAP who finally executed Tramoni. (No, I didn't go into that either... ;))

The decision to break up the movement was taken in 1973, I think, but disputes ran over to the following year. Some refused to accept it. Already, those who were more influenced by the counter-culture were in or around Libération.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Nov 28th, 2006 at 11:25:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Something I don't understand is that Marx said, I thought, that the capitalist system would eventually collapse and be replaced, after a revolution, with socialism. If that's the sequence, then why is there a revolutionary movement (now or in 1968 or whenever)? Don't you have to have the inevitable collapse of capitalism first?
by asdf on Tue Nov 28th, 2006 at 11:36:53 PM EST
That's the central paradox in Marx's philosophy of history: it is at the same time deterministic and volontarist... The collapse of capitalism is ineluctable due to the laws of history, but it needs an active working class led by an enlightened avant-garde...

It has been very well analysed by Cornelius Castoriadis in The Imaginary Institution of Society, which is, in my view, one of the best books on political philosophy.

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

by Melanchthon on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 04:43:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Very interesting diary.

The theme of wanting spontaneity and lack of structures while in truth strong inofficial structures solidified resonates strongly. This naivety about power seems a central failure of the '68ers. The same way the communes turned harems for dominant males, autonomous groups turned cliques with despotic leaders, armed revoluzzers resorted to terrorism.

One further curious trend that still amazes me is the drift of some of the furthest-far-left radicals to the right (the actual right, not simply centrism). Reading the French Wiki article on the GP, I found a few names known to me as right-leaning liberals or neocon allies.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 05:57:58 AM EST
DoDo, I don't know if this is a whole other diary topic, but I would be interested in your further thoughts re: "naivety about power"; esp. what are the best structures to avoid the "inofficial--and corrupt(able?)--structures"...or sommat.  

I class myself in the "naive" group (spontaneity, yay!) so I'm interested in learning about alternative approaches--esp. where they have been shown to work through time.  I'm assuming that naievty means something like: "assuming something to be true, when clear evidence proves that not to be the case", where "working through time" is a key factor in the "not to be the case" part...or sommat...I'm explaining myself badly.)

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 06:06:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
With naivety, I mean not expecting human nature to work in ways as afew described for Libé and I for communes etc. In some more detail, I mean behaviors like

  • cliques form, which discuss issues among themselves when the others aren't around, and then present the rest with something they already agreed upon as something to accept or reject (but if you reject it you're a traitor or at least tire us by forcing to go over it again)

  • manipulative personalities and deferential personalities lead to leader-follower relationships

  • a clique of males sits down to talk and tells a woman in the group also about to sit down to "please make coffee"

I have no recipe for "best structures". But what I favor is regulations specifically aimed to discourage or defang these behaviors. By "regulation", think in a broad sense. It could be fixed rules of how to make decisions, or it could be the structure given by SCOOP software.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 06:31:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You don't need "manipulative" personalities. Charisma exists.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 06:34:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Just like the only textbook market is the heavily regulated financial market, one cannot expect a non-hierarchical democratic structure to arise or survive without strong regulation.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 06:06:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Do you need a hierarchical structure to build the strong legislation, or can a non-hierarchical democratic structure build such strong regulation--well, it can't if it can't arise without such strong regulation, so how does a hierarchical structure "know" what legislation is necessary to create a non-existant entity (the non-hierarchical democratic structure)?

Does that make sense?

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 06:10:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
the reason I ask is that this is one of the most fascinating questions I have about ET--it's ongoing organisation.

(One of many refs = last night's comments re: Jerome and Kos)

So...how does or do the person or people responsible for designing a non-hierarchical democratic structure avoid becoming members of a non-official hierarchy in the process?

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 06:20:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So...how does or do the person or people responsible for designing a non-hierarchical democratic structure avoid becoming members of a non-official hierarchy in the process?
With great care, like hedgehogs have sex.

The people responsible for designing implies a pre-existing hierarchy.


Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 06:30:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think rg understood that -- in my reading, his question is how a hierarchical structure can de-hierarchise itself.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 06:35:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
With great care. And not spontaneously.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 06:36:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You need to lift yourself by your bootstraps. By the time a group of people gets to the point when they need a process to make collective decisions or to allocate tasks, there will already be a spontaneous social network in place, and it will be hierarchical. All you'd have to do is poll people on ET on whose opinion they like to take into account, and you get a pretty good picture of a self-organised hierarchy.

So when the group feels the need to make a collective decision, it needs to make a collective decision on what rules to follow to make a collective decision. And if you want the rules to foster a non-hierarchical structure, you are likely to have to design them carefully for the purpose. And the existing hierarchical social network of authority will find informal ways around the rules unless the rules quite forcefully try to prevent that from happening.

I believe that was actually the function of ostracism in Athenian democracy. You could in fact used the polling procedure I referred to above to identify who should have their informal power curtailed.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 06:29:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Without being facetious, lifting oneself by one's bootstraps is impossible--I'm not sure when the meaning changed to mean "do it yourself", but one's weight above is against one, which is what I mean: the hierarchy is implicit.  DoDo was saying that the naive (amongst whom I count myself) felt that some spontaneous process would allow a non-hierarchical yet democratic structure to arise.  You desrcibe an existing hierarchy, how it might arise and how we could expose its inner workings (if we wished to.)

But apart from discussions of hedgehogs, has this been done anywhere?  Or is it an impossible task?

I ask because if it has never been done, then maybe it is also naive to believe that such a structure could exist...or sommat.

Like I said, I think this is an active question, at least for me.  There are a millions of websites and sooner or later I hope (here's the spontaneous part--something to do with Sven's self-organising system) one or more of them will work out a true non-hierarchical structure--if such a thing makes sense for human activities.  Kos has chosen the opposite path, moving from benign to rather-less-benign dictator.

While we make no money from ET and enjoy posting here, long live the polyphony, etc.  However, I find it intresting to know how and if ET will square the circle of cost/payment/access/acccountability/decisions etc. that I think will arise.

In particular, and to link this back to the article, these quote are, I think important:

At The Beginning

Many of the journalists were not professionals, and learned the job as they went along. It didn't seem to matter as long as there was the collective ethos, and the grassroots contact with the readers.

Later On

The enthusiasm of the start-up, that made people willing to accept crowded conditions, inadequate technical means, and a heavy workload, quickly wore off. Supposedly open structures were in fact compartmentalised: there was no official hierarchy, but there was a power system all the same.

ET seems to be in the first stage, and I'm interested in how it will avoid...well...maybe websites are different.  I dunno.  Ramble yack.

(btw, the answer to the question "How do hedgehogs make love?" is "With abandon and very noisily and often at night in suburban gardens," or so I've heard.)

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 08:15:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Let's take a step back and Socratically ask what should be understood by by "non-hierarchical structure", or by "hierarchical structure", and why non-hierarchical structure should be desirable (or hierarchical structure undesirable).

Another thing is, is it agreed that human groups will spontaneously develop hierarchies?

The big issue is that, from the beginning to the end there was human nature

Supposedly open structures were in fact compartmentalised: there was no official hierarchy, but there was a power system all the same. A woman typographer did not equal a woman journalist did not equal a male journalist did not equal a member of the "direction" (which all the same had no formal power to direct...)


Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 08:26:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The woman typographer example is a good one as that seems, in hindsight to have been a cultural rather than a hard-wired prejudice, yet nevertheless it acted as if it were hard-wired (by the culture?)  The feminist revolution (on-going) dealt (and still deals) with that issue by arguing, I think, from principles which undermine cultural assumptions.

The question What is human nature? is impossible to answer, nature and nurture being two sides (or being seventeen each or whatever etc.)...  Nurture being part of our nature and nature being part of our nurture.

The question Is hierarchy implicit in all human relationships? seems to to get the answer Yes.  But hierarchies are in flux over time, and in competition through time.

hi‧er‧ar‧chy  ˈhaɪəˌrɑrki, ˈhaɪrɑr- Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[hahy-uh-rahr-kee, hahy-rahr-] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

-noun, plural -chies. 1. any system of persons or things ranked one above another.  

  1. government by ecclesiastical rulers.  
  2. the power or dominion of a hierarch.  
  3. an organized body of ecclesiastical officials in successive ranks or orders: the Roman Catholic hierarchy.  
  4. one of the three divisions of the angels, each made up of three orders, conceived as constituting a graded body.  
  5. Also called celestial hierarchy. the collective body of angels.  
  6. government by an elite group.  
  7. Linguistics. the system of levels according to which a language is organized, as phonemic, morphemic, syntactic, or semantic.

My question then is, "What, historically, have been the best structures for dealing with the negative effects of the hierarchical nature(s) of humans?"

With a sub question about how natural vs. cultural these many hierarchies are.  (e.g. Who is top of the resource tree?  [Modern version: who has the money?]  How did they get it?  and How do and can and could societies (human organisations of varying sizes) organise most effectively?

(And then I would add my own specific: "effectively" means "with full consideration of and compassion for The Other in whatever shape or form, and sustainable through time.")

Gah!  Longwidge!  Well, all the above, only more elegantly written and in one fifth of the words or less...

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 09:01:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The woman typographer example is a good one as that seems, in hindsight to have been a cultural rather than a hard-wired prejudice, yet nevertheless it acted as if it were hard-wired (by the culture?)  The feminist revolution (on-going) dealt (and still deals) with that issue by arguing, I think, from principles which undermine cultural assumptions.
In a different culture it would have been someone other than the woman typographer. Don't get distracted by the details shaping the specific form that the phenomenon takes, and look at the phenomenon itself which is that the spontaneous organisation inherits part of the hierarchies implicit in the social environment where the group comes from, and the social hierarchies of the group itself.

I suppose I should have kept my comment simple because you just ignored the important half, which is the Socratic elucidation of the terms. You still haven't answered what you understand by hierarchy and why it's a bad thing.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 09:19:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hierarchy is a bad thing?  When it has levels--"higher" and "lower"--and when higher is privileged over lower, then the lower will seek status by rising, lower will be also "inferior" (at least in status), and various social ills derive naturally from this.

If by hierarchy we mean a natural separation of skill levels/talents/charismatic qualities/other in various areas, so that observers can note "higher" (=better at) and "lower" (=worse at), then that seems a natural process.  The man or woman with the steadiest arm, slowest heart rate, calmest breathing, and best eyesight will shoot closer to the centre of the target.

But that's not related to reward, so, er, well, it's also not related to social dynamics beyond the participants unless...well..there are the social dynamics?

A Go master is a Go master by virtue of being a better Go player, which can be demonstrated on the board.  How this hierarchical position (indisputable) then plays out in the wider society--does the master get more money, more respect beyond the Go table, etc...

Ach, what do you think?

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 10:47:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In short: Social organisation (hierarchical/non hierarchical; democratic/non-democratic) is a different question to who has what skill, unless one believes in a meritocracy.

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.
by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 10:52:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sorry I was out practically all day and couldn't join this discussion between DoDo, rg, and Migeru.

I think the right questions are being thrown up. rg asks if a non-hierarchical structure can evolve spontaneously (I'd already replied upthread that that wasn't what I'd said). It seems to me that what evolves spontaneously between human beings is (always) hierarchy. The question of nature or nurture might be worth following up, because we could say that the effects of culture could be reduced by cultural counter-action - but then, that is exactly what we naïve "counter-culture" enthusiasts thought we were doing in the '60s and '70s. The Libé people were sincere admirers, at least at first, of Mao's Cultural Revolution. They were out to destroy (by positive energy and creativity) whole layers of cultural sediment, of education, of common wisdom, of habit. The same can be said, pretty much, of the experimenters with communes (of which I also saw a bit at the time).

These experiments in open structure - more prosaically, often just "none of that crap here, no bosses, no power games" - failed precisely on the question of power, status, hierarchy. (It's often been said the communes failed over sex or money, without seeing that sex and money are gee-gaws that come with power). It is not by ignoring, or worse, denying, the hierarchical tendency, that we will get it to go away. As Migeru says:

the spontaneous organisation inherits part of the hierarchies implicit in the social environment where the group comes from, and the social hierarchies of the group itself.

And these hierarchies will rapidly develop new definitions and edges, stamped in by day-to-day relations in circumstances that in fact reduce the chances there will be sufficient observation and reflection, which require distance, insofar as the group has set itself an arduous task (part of which, :-), is proving there's no need for hierarchies), and everyone is or should be engaged in hard work. (And the hardness of that work as carried out by different individuals or groups, and its attendant status, will both result from and further validate the hierarchical distinctions).

So "cultural" action seems to me to call for a great deal of advance thought and discussion. Speculation as to a "natural" component doesn't seem to me to get us far beyond the observation that ranking takes place among pretty much all social animals. We have the most complex set of social relations of the social animals, and a lot of it is based on ranking. I think it would be wise to take that as a given of the human situation. Beyond that, the cultural elements are deep-rooted and don't, you know, come out in the wash just because we're optimists, revolutionaries, reformers, whatever - etopians.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 03:50:21 PM EST
Great commentary.

I would love to read more about the circles you have been in touch with, back in those days.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 04:12:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks. I'll try to do something about the communes one of these days.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 04:25:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]


Display:
Go to: [ European Tribune Homepage : Top of page : Top of comments ]