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European Salon de News, Discussion et Klatsch – 29 November

by Fran Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 12:47:32 AM EST

On this date in history:

1787 Louis XVI promulgates an edict of tolerance, granting civil status to Protestants.

More here


Welcome to the new European Salon!

This will replace the former Breakfast Thread. Over time it looked like people show up in cycles, some for Breakfast, though less and less, many for Lunch and some stayed in to the Evening. Thus, a Salon that is open for discussions, exchange, and gossip and just plain socializing all day long, seems to be more appropriate.

The Salon has different rooms or sections for your enjoyment. If you would like to join the discussion, then to add a link or comment to a topic or section, please click on "Reply to this" in one of the following sections:

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I hope you will find this place inspiring – of course meaning the inspiration gained here to show up in interesting diaries. :-)

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EUROPE
by Fran on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 12:48:32 AM EST
Deutsche Welle: "Failure Would be a Catastrophe for the Security of the West"

The time has come, says Berlin-based political scientist Herfried Münkler, to integrate the US-led mission Enduring Freedom with the efforts of ISAF troops in Afghanistan. Otherwise the mission could fail.

DW-WORLD: How do you see the situation in Afghanistan? Has the NATO mission failed?

Herfried Münkler: At this point in time, you can't make such a general conclusion. As far as the question of the success of NATO's mission is concerned, Afghanistan is a relatively diverse country. The situation in the South and the Southeast is completely different than that in the North. The current discussions have more to do with perceptions in our own countries -- in the US and the nations of western and central Europe. We're realizing that our mission and presence there will last at least a decade and not a couple of months or years. And that's more than just the physical presence of rotating troops.

It also means we have to be prepared to commit more troops and get more deeply involved. NATO will have to do everything that's required, and it will do that to ensure that this mission doesn't fail. If that were to happen it would be a catastrophe for the security of the West.

by Fran on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 12:57:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah, the hoary old vietnam-era "domino theory" is now updated and applied to Afghanistan. If we lose vietnam we'll lose the whole of South East Asia. My god !! We Did !! And yet somehow I never noticed.

So if we lose Afghanistan (btw in what way did we ever "have" it ?) then we'll lose ....where precisely ? Pakistan ? Saudi Arabia ?  Outer Mongolia ? Fiji ?

Or perhaps we'll lose the war of ideas ? You know the one;-
Us : If you don't agree to deomcratically vote for the leader who will corruptly sign over your sovereignty to us, we'll bomb your village and kill everyone.

Them : Do what we tell you or we'll shoot you.

Can we have someone, anyone, in a position of authority who can speak in terms that aren't self-contradicting ? Can we have a media prepared to point out the Emperor is talkng bull ?

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 06:41:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It would be interesting to think about whether it was worthwhile for the U.S. to engage in the first world war, too. There sure wasn't much of a threat of invasion of North America.

Similarly, did American involvement in the second world war reduce or increase the total number of people killed? The threat of invasion in that case was pretty small (Hawaii is a LONG way from the mainland), so perhaps the 1930s isolationists were right: Let Europe fight over ownership of Flanders and Poland without interference...

by asdf on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 07:38:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's a good question and one I've often wondered myself. I've never really managed to understand why the US wanted to get involved in WWI, except that it possibly felt (or at least should have felt) a kinship with France through their shared revolutionary foundations. It would have been embarrassing if the US so readily abandoned those who'd gifted them the Statue of Libery.

The US got involved in WWII cos of an attack on US soil. I didn't matter that it was in the middle of the Pacific, it was as much a part of the US as the Orkneys (or the Falklands) are part of the United Kingdom. Tojo was right when he said that attacking Hawaii would lead to a war Japan couldn't win. That it led to a declaration of war upon Germany as well is the law of unintended consequences., however much I'm glad that it did.

However, I'm not sure of the relevance to Vietnam or Afghanistan. Vietnam was, like Iraq, a war of choice sold on a lie.

Afghanistan was a justifiable attack because it harboured those who had attacked the USA. However,  control was squandered and the job of repairing the modern state was left undone. Then it was finally abandoned for Iraq.

Well, it don't make any sense to clear a house of rats if you don't clean the place up afterwards. They only come back.

Well they're back, meaner and nastier than before cos we taught them how. The old poisons don't work anymore.

Don't give matches to neocons, they'll only burn the place doww and then blame liberal hippies.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 08:54:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Entry of the United States
Main article: American Expeditionary Force

President Wilson before Congress, announcing the break in official relations with Germany on February 3, 1917.America's policy of insisting on neutral rights while also trying to broker a peace resulted in tensions with both Berlin and London. When a German U-boat sank the Lusitania in 1915, a large passenger liner with 128 Americans aboard, Wilson vowed "America was too proud to fight," and demanded an end to attacks on passenger ships. Germany complied. Wilson tried to mediate a compromise settlement; yet no compromise was discovered. Wilson also repeatedly warned that America would not tolerate unrestricted submarine warfare because it violated America's rights. Wilson was under great pressure from former president Teddy Roosevelt, who denounced German "piracy" and Wilson's cowardice. In January 1917 the Germans announced they would resume unrestricted submarine warfare. Berlin's proposal to Mexico to join the war as Germany's ally against the U.S. was exposed in February, angering American opinion. (see Zimmermann Telegram). After German submarines attacked several American merchant ships, sinking three, Wilson requested that Congress declare war on Germany, which it did on April 6, 1917.[11] The U.S. House of Representatives approved the war resolution 373-50, the U.S. Senate 82-6, with opposition coming especially from German American districts such as Wisconsin. The U.S. declared war on Austria-Hungary in December 1917.

The United States was never formally a member of the Allies but an "Associated Power". Significant numbers of fresh American troops arrived in Europe in the summer of 1918, and they started arriving at 10,000 per day. Germany miscalculated that it would be many more months before large numbers of American troops could be sent to Europe, and that, in any event, the U-boat offensive would prevent their arrival. In fact, not a single American infantryman lost his life due to German U-boat activity.

The United States Navy sent a battleship group to Scapa Flow to join with the British Grand Fleet, several destroyers to Queenstown, Ireland, and several submarines to the Azores and to Bantry Bay, Ireland, to help guard convoys. Several regiments of U.S. Marines were also dispatched to France. However, it would be some time before the United States would be able to contribute significant personnel to the Western and Italian fronts.

The British and French wanted the United States to send its infantry to reinforce their troops already on the battlelines, and not use scarce shipping to bring over supplies. Thus the Americans primarily used British and French artillery, aircraft and tanks. However, General John J. Pershing, American Expeditionary Force (AEF) commander, refused to break up American units to be used as reinforcements for British Empire and French units (though he did allow African American combat units to be used by the French). Pershing ordered the use of frontal assaults, which had been discarded by that time by British Empire and French commanders because of the large loss of life sustained throughout the war.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wwiautifuk

by oldfrog on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 10:55:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Strange that nothing is mentioned of the large and growing American loans to the allies. The United States went from being a large debitor nation to an equally large creditor nation during the war. The great majority of these loans and credits went to Britain and France. In other words, there was a strong financial reason for entering the war on the side of the allies, along with other, more "idealistic" reasons.
by Trond Ove on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 01:05:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
BBC: Nato 'to ease Afghan troop rules'

Nato leaders at a summit in Latvia have agreed to relax restrictions on how their troops are used in Afghanistan.

More than 75% of the 32,000-strong force in Afghanistan will soon be allowed to be deployed anywhere in the country, alliance officials said.

Earlier, US President George W Bush berated Nato members, calling on them to accept "difficult assignments".

The summit is to continue on Wednesday with discussion of military requests for more troops to fight insurgents.

The two-day summit, the first Nato meeting on in an ex-Soviet state, will conclude after discussions about Nato's role in the 21st Century.

The alliance leaders will also discuss ways to enhance Nato's partnership activities, including efforts to draw countries like Japan and Australia more closely into alliance activities.

by Fran on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 01:01:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Bush reportedly went as far as to say that Article V of the NATO Charter actually means that any attack on NATO troops is an attack on all NATO countries.

Expect him to use that argument about US troops in Iraq soon.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 03:52:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
an attack on one in Iraq being an attack on all ?

If he tries that one, he'll get stomped in the rush for the door. The sound of running feet being drowned by the guffaws from Moscow and Beijing.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 06:44:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It seems to have worked in Afghanistan...

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 06:48:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
IHT: As euro pushes higher, European finance ministers hold steady

FRANKFURT: European finance ministers struck a relaxed tone about the renewed strength of the euro Tuesday as it traded above $1.32 for the first time in a year and a half, signaling a tolerance, at least for now, of gains that do not appear to threaten the European economic recovery.

While Jean-Claude Juncker of Luxembourg, chairman of the Eurogroup of finance ministers of countries that use the currency, criticized "excessive volatility and disorderly movements" as being detrimental to business, he brushed off the euro's recent rise as "not a cause for concern."

"Should the upward trend of the euro to the dollar and the yen continue, it would be cause for serious concern at some point," Juncker said during a meeting of the ministers in Brussels. "But we have not reached that point yet."

The position struck by Juncker and other finance ministers - which echoes a formulation that policy makers around the world have used since a meeting of Group of 7 finance ministers in 2004 - appeared to isolate France, which has been a lone voice in the past week blaming the euro for punishing the bottom line of some companies, notably Airbus.

by Fran on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 01:10:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
OT: Juncker is said to be slated to be the next President of the EU Commission.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 03:51:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Not a good idea IMO. Juncker is too deep down in the Brussels loop (or cocoon, if you will).

You might also think they'd have something against a Commission President from Luxembourg after Santer...

De Villepin might be an option, if Royal wins the French presidency.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 03:37:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I never said it was a good idea, but the reasons you give are exactly why he's a likely candidate.

We got the tip from our very own EU insider earlier this year.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 03:45:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Guy Verhofstadt was also slated to succeed Prodi, but that didn't happen. Might have, if it wasn't for that war in Iraq thing.

To be fair to Juncker, I also thought that Barroso was going to be an absolute disaster, but so far I think he's proving to be only moderately bad (thank you, European Parliament) - and he seems to be moving in the right direction on climate change. The second half of his Commission might actually become good.

What might get Juncker through is that he's not likely to be as bold in his foreign politics as Verhofstadt was, and that another major rift like that caused by the Iraq war is not as likely to happen. But I would not believe Ritter on this because these things don't get decided in Brussels, or between Germany and France.

Every country has a veto...

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 04:37:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Doesn't Germany have a lot of exports to Germany that'll get affected by this. ?

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 06:45:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The German financial elites can always just slash their workers salaries and increase their work hours again... I would imagine that would be slightly more difficult in France. (Yes I know, snarkiness abounds.)
by Trond Ove on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 12:59:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
NewsFactor Network: The French Say Au Revoir to Microsoft Software

The French parliament has said au revoir to Microsoft. Starting in June of next year, French deputies will use desktops and servers running Linux, Mozilla's Firefox Web browser, and OpenOffice.org, a free open-source alternative to Microsoft's Office software. <...>

"The evidence on the cost savings attributable to a switch to Linux has been mixed," according to Chris Swenson, director of software industry analysis at research group NPD. "There has been some evidence that companies have to spend a good deal on training and support after you deploy the operating system." <...>

"If you buy your software from a Linux vendor like Red Hat, you obviously have to pay for licenses, support, and maintenance," he said, adding that finding and recruiting Linux experts to run enterprise I.T. systems can sometimes be harder than finding Microsoft specialists.

"The net net," said Swenson, is that "the average company or organization can probably save some money by switching to Linux, but deploying software from an established Linux vendor certainly isn't free."

Whatever.  All things being equal -- including price (and I bet Microsoft will still come out more expensive in the end) -- open source is better than Microsoft.

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 01:15:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Security is generally a decisive factor in the choice to drop Micro$oft.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 02:09:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There has been some debate at my company about this.  See for example:

Windows beats Linux - Unix on vulnerabilities - CERT

It might not feel like it, but Windows suffered fewer security vulnerabilities than Linux and Unix during 2005.

Linux and Unix experienced more than three times as many reported security vulnerabilities than Windows, according to the mighty US Computer Emergency Readiness Team (CERT) annual year-end security index.

but...

Despite posting fewer vulnerabilities than its Unix and Linux challengers and Microsoft going out its way to talk up its "progress" in security in 2005, it is attacks on Windows that still cause more concern and generate most headlines.

The reason is that, unlike Linux, Windows has greater potential to cause harm because of its presence on desktops in the hands of users who receive self-propagating worms, click on email attachments and download malicious code. And while it seems just as each hole is fixed, a new vulnerability is unlocked elsewhere in the vast Windows code base.



Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.
by marco on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 02:30:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This, as far as I understand, has more to do with the way open source software vulnerabilities are found and reported compared to closed-source, than any measurably lower code quality.
by Trond Ove on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 03:14:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Does M$ Vista have anything to do with this?

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 03:50:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Does M$ Vista have anything to do with anything?
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 05:06:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If I realised M$ was going to stop supporting the current systems and forcing me to switch to Vista, I'd go open source.

But that's just me.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 05:22:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Times Online: Britain accused on secret CIA flights

# Report says that 170 planes landed
# Poland may have hosted secret centre

Britain has allowed 170 secret CIA flights connected to the illegal seizure of terror suspects to make stopovers at its airports, a draft European Parliament report claimed. The number is almost 100 more than previously admitted by ministers and will be used by MPs to demand a full parliamentary inquiry into the practice of extraordinary rendition.

The report, by an Italian Socialist MEP, concluded that at least 1,245 CIA flights had flown into European airspace and that Britain was second only to Germany -- which allowed 336 -- in the number of stopovers. Ten EU countries were named as allowing stopovers.

Giovanni Claudio Fava's draft report "deplores" the level of co-operation Geoff Hoon, the Europe Minister, gave the MEPs, and condemns the rendition of one British citizen and three British residents, two of whom were said to have been seized on the basis of "partly erroneous information supplied by the UK security service MI5".

Potentially the most explosive accusation was levelled at Poland, which was said to have allowed the CIA to run a secret detention centre -- a so-called "black site -- on its soi. Staff from Szymany airport in north-east Poland told of several aircraft landings attended by military vehicles, which were then seen driving to a military training centre. The report concluded that, "in the light of serious circumstantial evidence, a temporary secret detention facility may have been located at the intelligence training centre at Stare Kiejkuty".

by Fran on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 01:21:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Dawn: EU states tried to impede CIA prison probe: Parliament report

BRUSSELS, Nov 28: European countries knew about US secret jails for terrorism suspects and have obstructed an investigation into the transport and illegal detention of prisoners, a draft European Parliament report said on Tuesday.

It criticised a string of top European Union officials, including foreign policy chief Javier Solana and counter-terrorism coordiNator Gijs de Vries, and complained of lack of cooperation from nearly all member states.

The report said Nicolo Pollari, a former head of Italy's SISMI intelligence agency, "concealed the truth" when he told European Parliament lawmakers in March that Italian agents played no part in the CIA kidnapping of an Egyptian cleric.

On the contrary, SISMI officials played an active role in the abduction of Abu Omar, and it was "very probable" that the Italian government knew of the operation, it said.

The government of Mr Silvio Berlusconi, in power at the time, repeatedly denied any knowledge. His successor Romano Prodi last week replaced Pollari, who faces possible indictment over the Abu Omar affair but denies any wrongdoing.

The case is one of the best known of a suspected CIA "rendition", or secret transfer of a terrorist suspect between countries, a practice rights groups say often leads to torture.

by Fran on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 01:24:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
European Parliament resolution on the alleged use of European countries by the CIA for the transportation and illegal detention of prisoners, adopted midway through the work of the Temporary Committee

The European Parliament

<...>

  1.  Considers it equally implausible, in the light of the results of the judicial enquiries and of the testimonies and documentation examined, that the abduction, by CIA agents in Milan on 17 February 2003, of the Egyptian national, Abu Omar, who was subsequently taken to Aviano and later to Ramstein, could have been organised and carried out without the Italian authorities or security services being informed thereof in advance;

  2.  Calls on the Italian Government, assuming that the conditions which prompted the earlier decision are no longer deemed to apply, to seek the extradition of the 22 CIA agents implicated in the abduction of Abu Omar in order to assist the judicial proceedings in progress and help establish the truth;

  3.  Condemns the abduction by the CIA of the German national, Khaled el Masri, who was held in Afghanistan from January to May 2004 and subjected to degrading and inhuman treatment; notes further the suspicion - not yet allayed - that Khaled el Masri was illegally held before that date, from 31 December 2003 to 23 January 2004, in the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia and that he was transported from there to Afghanistan on 23-24 January 2004; considers the measures that the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia claims to have taken to investigate the matter to be inadequate;

<...>

  1.  Deplores the fact that the Swedish state relinquished control of law enforcement on 18 December 2001 at Bromma airport when the Government's decision to expel two Egyptian citizens, Mohammed Al Zary and Ahmed Agiza, was executed and US operatives were allowed to exercise public authority on Swedish territory, which, according to the Swedish Chief Parliamentary Ombudsman, is not compatible with Swedish law;

  2.  Deplores the fact that Sweden's expulsion of the Egyptian nationals, Mohammed Al Zary and Ahmed Agiza, in December 2001, was based solely on diplomatic assurances from the Egyptian government, which did not provide effective safeguards against torture;

  3.  Urges that investigations be continued to clarify the role of US soldiers, who were part of the NATO-led Stabilisation Force (SFOR), in the abduction and transfer to Guantánamo Bay of six Bosnian nationals and/or residents of Algerian origin, contrary to a binding interim decision by the Human Rights Chamber for Bosnia and Herzegovina and despite the decision by the Bosnian Supreme Court to release the suspects, as testified by Manfred Nowak, who was a member of the Human Rights Chamber for Bosnia-Herzegovina at that time; calls for the possible role of the Bosnian government in this case to be examined further; highlights the need for more information on the possible involvement of NATO and the United Nations International Police Task Force (IPTF) in this connection;

  4.  Urges that investigations be continued to clarify the alleged existence of a secret detention facility in Kosovo and the possible involvement of the Kosovo Force (KFOR) in the illegal detention of terrorist suspects;

<...>

(Dated "6 July 2006": Was that the date of this draft was started, or is this a different document?)

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 02:17:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It will be quite some time before countries actually start extradition procedures for members of the various secret police organizations. Is this paragraph 18 really just a challenge to Italy about whether their own secret service was involved? It's sort of hard for me to imagine CIA agents running around in Europe without permission from the locals...
by asdf on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 07:34:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's sort of hard for me to imagine CIA agents running around in Europe without permission from the locals

Hahahahaha...!

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 07:37:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Can anyone see what the Irish government should have known? The report in the Irish Times doesn't have much:

The EU report says aircraft that stopped off in Ireland were involved in the rendition of Agiza, El Zari, Al Rawi, El Banna, Britel, El Masri, Binyam. These individuals were secretly transported by the US secret service and some were later tortured in prisons outside Europe, such as Egypt. There is no evidence in the report to suggest they were ever transported through Irish airports but it says Germany, Italy, Sweden, Bosnia and Macedonia did facilitate rendition.
(Ireland.com)

On that reading, the best the government here could have known was that the Americans were up to something covert. Not exactly headline news ...

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 02:42:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What we now know is that the US was violating the Chicago Convention on Civil Aviation.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 03:47:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There is that, which I think is why some people here are calling for inspections of suspicous US planes passing through.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 03:52:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Shame, shame!

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 03:48:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Scaramella under investigation for arms traffic

Well, well, well. Our ineffable Mario Scaramella, super professor throughout the world allegedly arranged those grave Ruskie mafia menaces against Senator Guzzanti and himself. Seems he had some Ukranians accomplices plant Russian grenades in a truck and had them discovered in Teramo.

It's nice to see the Ukranians turn up again. There used to be a curious site of Italian-Ukranian friendship that was in the habit of putting up strange articles that went straight to Berlusconi's charlatan Telekom Serbia Commission. Coincidently Francesco Pazienza had blackmailed a petty Contra thug, Pio Maria Deiana, into putting that false dossier together.

Seems the Mitrokhin Commission and the Telekom Serbia Commission have a lot more in common than just San Marino and Italo Bocchino's Finbroker.

As for the shoot-out on Vesuvius some years ago that involved Scaramella, the judges concluded that Scaramella's penitentiary cops literally attacked the camorrista without provocation.

All we need to find out now, is who is behind Scaramella's damned American front, The Enviromental Crime Protection Program. Who knows if the Anglo-American press will get off their asses and stop referring to Scaramella as an academic?

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 02:23:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
FT: Mystery illness hits former Russian PM

Yegor Gaidar, Russia's former prime minister and the architect of the country's market reforms, last week suffered a sudden, unexplained and violent illness on a visit to Ireland, a day after Alexander Litvinenko, a former KGB spy, died in London from an apparent radiation poisoning.

Mr Gaidar is now in a stable condition at an undisclosed Moscow hospital, undergoing tests. In a telephone interview with the FT, Mr Gaidar said the doctors had so far been unable to identify the cause of the violent vomiting and bleeding that he suffered during a conference in Ireland.

Anatoly Chubais, his former associate and the head of Russia's electricity monopoly, said he suspected Mr Gaidar may have been poisoned. However, he strongly ruled out that either Russia's security services or the Kremlin could have had any involvement. There is no indication of radiation being the cause of his illness.

Mr Gaidar declined to comment about whether he believed he had suffered a poisoning attack. The news of his illness comes after a series of mysterious incidents involving Russian public figures over the past month. It emerged as the Kremlin and state-run television continued to suggest the murky world of Russia's recent émigrés was behind the death of Mr Litvinenko.

by blackhawk on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 02:45:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Violent vomiting and bleeding? Uh-oh.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 03:43:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There is no indication of radiation being the cause of his illness.

Ok, ignore what I just said.

Damn right brain misfiring...

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 03:45:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Didn't Yeltsin once have a sudden "unexplained" illness on Irish soil once ? ;-))

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 06:47:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
New York Times: Pope Backs Turkey's Bid to Join European Union

Pope Benedict XVI arrived in Turkey on Tuesday armed with a surprise gesture of good will aimed at blunting Muslim anger toward him: he backed Turkey's long-stalled desire to join the European Union, reversing a statement he made two years ago.

Pope Benedict XVI visits the Ataturk Mausoleum during the first day of his pastoral trip to Turkey.

Turkey's prime minister, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, told reporters after a brief meeting with Benedict at the airport here that he had asked the pope to support Turkey in its attempt to become a member of the European Union.

"He said, `You know we don't have a political role, but we wish for Turkey's entry into the E.U.,' " Mr. Erdogan said the pope told him. "His wish is a positive recommendation for us."



Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.
by marco on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 03:16:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Catholic News: Peaceful Pope promotes brotherhood, backs Turkey for EU

The two heads of state shook hands and processed from the plane on a red carpet, Catholic News Agency reports.

"I want to express happiness to see you and your delegation in our country," Erdogan told the Pope. He described the Pope's visit as "very meaningful."

"I really wanted to come to Turkey because Turkey has become a bridge ... between the religions," Benedict reportedly told the Prime Minister through an interpreter.

"It is a democratic, Islamic country and a bridge," the Pope said. "I wanted to come to Turkey since becoming pope because I love this culture."

"I want to reiterate the solidarity between the cultures," Benedict said. "This is our duty." <...>

"He said we are not political, but we wish for Turkey to join the EU," Mr Erdogan said.

I wonder what could be behind this turn-around:

"Europe is a cultural and not a geographical continent," he said.

"Turkey always represented another continent throughout history, in permanent contrast with Europe," so to equate the two continents "would be a mistake," he told the magazine of the French newspaper Le Figaro in an interview published last week.



Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.
by marco on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 03:26:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I wonder what could be behind this turn-around:

Maybe he read a history book.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 03:29:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Maybe he had a road of Damascus moment.

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.
by marco on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 03:32:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
boom! boom!

:-D

Money is a sign of Poverty - Culture Saying

by RogueTrooper on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 05:56:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Does this mean the Christian Democrats will now drop the tripe that "Europe is a Christian Club"?

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 03:43:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
How Catholic are the Christian Democrats?

Personally, I think the calculation here is that bringing in Turkey would be more likely to bring a religious element into any upcoming European Constitution. I just can't imagine why that would be the calculation, given how secular Turkey is.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 03:47:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, the Pope also said that "religions should work together" which gives me the creeps.

It's like that other platitude: "people of all faiths".

Gaah.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 04:19:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, the delusional should;-

1)recognise each other's rights to believe in the fairies of their own choice.

2) Jointly chastise the rational for their prejudice  towards wanting evidence.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 06:57:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sounds about right.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 07:01:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, I expect the Christian Democrats [by which I mean members of the EPP/ED group] of Portugal, Spain, France, Italy, Slovenia, Belgium, Ireland, Luxembourg, Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Lithuania, Austria and [half of] Germany to be mostly Catholic. Moreover:
Christian Democracy as a political movement was born at the end of the 19th century, largely as a result of the papal encyclical Rerum Novarum of Pope Leo XIII, in which the Vatican recognized workers' misery and agreed that something should be done about it, in reaction to the rise of the socialist and trade union movements.

...

In Protestant countries, Christian Democratic parties were founded by more conservative protestants in reaction to the political power of liberal tendencies within the protestant churches. ...

...

While Christian Democracy is of Roman Catholic origin, it has been adopted by many Protestant and Orthodox Christians as well. Some Christian Democratic parties, particularly in Europe, no longer emphasize religion and have become much more secular in recent years.

By their deeds you shall know them.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 04:30:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

You know we don't have a political role, but we wish for Turkey's entry into the E.U.,

You don't have a political role, and you don't have any other kind of role. You do not speak for Europeans; you speak for Catholics, most of which are elsewhere.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 08:04:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
WORLD
by Fran on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 12:49:09 AM EST
Guardian: White House on defensive as US media breaks taboo to declare onflict 'civil war'

· NBC News policy switch provokes intense debate
· Public opinion likely to be swayed by terminology

The Bush administration appeared yesterday to be losing its fight to stop the US media calling the escalating violence in Iraq a civil war after one of the main television networks formally announced it would break the taboo.

The New York Times and Los Angeles Times have been using the phrase for a while without fanfare, but on Monday NBC News used one of its best-known presenters, Matt Lauer, to declare the network's semantic defiance of the White House. "After careful consideration, NBC News has decided a change in terminology is warranted, that the situation in Iraq, with armed, militarised factions fighting for their own political agendas, can now be characterised as civil war," Lauer, the host of the Today show, said.

Bill Keller, the New York Times' executive editor, said: "It's hard to argue that this war does not fit the generally accepted definition of civil war."

With rival sectarian militias fighting over Baghdad district by district, other US news organisations have said they were reconsidering their policies on the highly politicised issue, but the administration stuck to its position. Speaking at the opening of the Nato summit in Latvia yesterday, George Bush refused to accept the "civil war" label, arguing that the conflict was being artificially stoked.

"There's a lot of sectarian violence taking place, fomented, in my opinion, because of these attacks by al-Qaida, causing people to seek reprisals," he said.

by Fran on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 12:59:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oooh, look out, the poodles sense wounded prey.

The fact is that what we're experiencing right now is a top-down disaster. -Paul Krugman
by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 06:53:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Reuters: OPEC president says may consider another round of cuts

SEOUL, Nov 6 (Reuters) - OPEC President Edmund Daukoru said on Monday that oil markets may not feel the effects of OPEC's production curbs until later this month and restated a further reduction may be needed if oversupply continued.

"It's a clear oversupply," Daukoru, president of the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC) and Nigeria's energy minister, told reporters during a visit to the South Korean capital.

"If it continues like this, yes," he said, when asked about another round of cuts.

Commenting on the cuts already agreed by OPEC, Daukoru said: "You will not see it but we have taken action and probably into the middle of the month, you will believe us."

by Fran on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 01:12:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
New York Times: Plan Could Close 20 or More New York Hospitals

Last year, the State Department of Health estimated that of the 63,000 beds New York hospitals are licensed for -- they actually operate thousands fewer -- about 20,000 were unneeded. The Healthcare Association of New York State, a major industry group, put the figure at 7,000, still far above the 4,200 the commission seeks to eliminate.

Dozens of hospitals have closed in recent years, a few are in bankruptcy, and many more are bleeding cash daily. [Commission on Health Care Facilities in the 21st Century chairman Stephen Berger] warned that failure to trim the industry would leave all hospitals in much worse condition, requiring a much more painful rescue in a few years.

He said the crisis sent his mind back more than three decades, recalling his service on a state panel that investigated New York City's finances. "In 1974, that commission predicted that New York City was going to go broke, and nobody listened," he said. " That is where we are now in the health care area."

<...>

From Long Island to Niagara Falls, hospital executives and elected officials denounced the commission's plan and vowed to fight it in the Legislature and in court.



Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.
by marco on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 01:17:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
THIS, THAT, AND THE OTHER
by Fran on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 12:49:46 AM EST
Independent: Revenge of the boar as herd flees hunt and wrecks town

Shaken burghers in the quiet Bavarian country town of Veitshoechheim were left licking their wounds and counting the cost after a herd of wild boars went on the rampage.

Chaos erupted in the market town near the city of Wuerzburg when more than a dozen frightened and aggressive animals invaded the town centre after fleeing a boar hunt.

Shoppers were taken by surprise when one of the animals bulldozed its way into a fashion boutique, frightening staff and leaving a trail of destruction.

"The saleswoman got a huge shock and was forced to take refuge behind the counter," said Karl-Heinz Schmidt, a police officer. "When the animal ran back out of the shop it wrecked goods and caused about €1,000 (£680) worth of damage," he said yesterday.

by Fran on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 01:09:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
one of the animals bulldozed its way into a fashion boutique,

I'd love to have seen that.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 02:05:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
IHT: Free or farmed, when is a fish really organic?

Buying a pork chop labeled "organic" is relatively straightforward: it comes from a pig that ate only organic food, roamed outdoors from time to time and was left free of antibiotics.

But what makes a fish organic?

That is a question troubling the Agriculture Department, which decides such things. The answer could determine whether Americans will be able to add fish to the growing list of organic foods they are buying, and whether fish farmers will be able to tap into that trend and the profits that go with it.

Organic foods, which many people believe to be more healthful (though others scoff), are grown on farms that shun chemicals and synthetic fertilizers and that meet certain government standards for safeguarding the environment and animals.

An organic tomato must flourish without conventional pesticides; an organic chicken cannot be fed antibiotics. Food marketers can use terms like "natural" and "free range" with some wiggle room, but only the Agriculture Department can sanction the "organic" label.

by Fran on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 01:15:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Environmentalists argue that many farm-raised fish live in cramped nets in conditions that can pollute the water, and that calling them organic is a perversion of the label.

Environmentalists should read whataboutbob and insist that if people are going to eat fish, they should only eat farmed fish (or catch the fish themselves).

by det on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 05:54:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's interesting that fish is the only major food group that is still in hunter/gatherer mode.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 05:56:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
the problem with fish farming is that it is done too intensively, which means that the lcoal environment is too polluted with fish crap and the pesticides that keep the fish "healthy".

In the orkneys they're attempting to say that fish farming can only be "organic" if it is conducted in ocean currents, ie not in lochs or inlets. This means that the fish get their natural food, their waste is swept away and they're not dosed on pesticides because they're not farmed in densities that create problems.

Courese it costs more, but that has to be the way to go.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 07:31:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So fish has gone directly from hunter/gatherer to agribusiness.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 07:36:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
farming = agribusiness. So that's what happened everywhere isn't it ?

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 07:42:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What? Subsistence farming is agribusiness?

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 07:44:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not convinced that subsistence farming is the intermediate phase between hunter/gatherer and agribusiness.

Everything points to the idea that the nation state was born by the excessive profitability of the early grain crops in Iraq right at the end of the Ice age. It's hard to imagine a substantial subsistence phase given the attractions.

All of the earliest written records are of grain tallies. The Song of Gilgamesh (the earliest story known, fully recovered from oral tradition in the 19th C) is a lament for the hunter/gatherer lifestyle in the face of agriculture-based urbanisation, strongly suggesting that one superceded the other inside a couple of generations.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 09:04:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The question is the scale of land ownership and the size of the farms.

Is it a small number of large landowners with journeymen/serf farm workers?

Or is is family farms, or communal land?

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 09:10:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What do you mean by "Nation State"? AFAIK the Nation State was born in the 18th to 19th century.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 09:50:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
City state / nation state. One is just a larger version of the other, not a different entity.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 04:16:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
On that I disagree. A city [and its surrounding countryside] is a quite concrete  economic unit, while a nation is a cultural construct.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 04:27:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
BBC: Face transplant woman can smile

The recipient of the first partial face transplant has recovered so well she can go out without people noticing her scars, her surgeon has said.

Isabelle Dinoire, from Amiens, France, received the graft from a brain-dead donor after being mauled by her dog.

One year on, her surgeon Bernard Devauchelle said she continued to make excellent progress and that he had plans to carry out more operations.

Mrs Dinoire has told him she could smile and looked like herself again.

Professor Devauchelle, from the Centre Hospitalier Universitaire Amiens, France, told AFP news agency: "Aesthetically, the transplant has fitted in very well with the shape of her face. People who hadn't seen her before her accident now recognise her, which is very interesting.

by Fran on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 01:18:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Wall Street Journal: CHARITABLE EXPLANATION (behind subscription wall)

America's working poor give away at least as large a percentage of their incomes as the rich, and a lot more than the middle class.

<...>

The [John F. Kennedy School of Government's Saguaro Seminar] Social Capital Community Benchmark Survey indicates that Americans who weekly attend a house of worship are 25 percentage points more likely to give than people who go to church rarely or never. These religious folks also give nearly four times more dollars per year than secularists, on average, and volunteer more than twice as frequently.

It is not the case that these enormous differences are due simply to religious people giving to their churches. Religious people are more charitable with all sorts of nonreligious causes as well. They are 10 percentage points likelier than secularists to give money to explicitly nonreligious charities like the United Way, and 25 points more likely to volunteer for secular groups such as the PTA. Churchgoers were far likelier in 2001 to give to 9/11-related causes. On average, people of faith give more than 50% more money each year to non-church social welfare organizations than secularists do.



Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.
by marco on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 01:19:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This doesn't surprise me one bit on any count, they all match my personal experience.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 02:16:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
nzherald: Lighthouse on Paris horizon

PARIS - After more than a century reigning over the landscape of Paris, the Eiffel Tower is finally to have a rival approaching its own size.

By 2012, a futuristic 300m-high tower block, called La Phare (the lighthouse) is to be constructed amid the skyscrapers of the La Defense area, just west of Paris proper.

---
Californian architect Thom Mayne's design has flowing curves like a giant ship's funnel. The building will be asymmetric - looking different from every angle - and will be crowned by a forest of giant, electricity-generating windmills.

by Fran on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 01:30:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
La Phare (the lighthouse) is to be constructed amid the skyscrapers of the La Defense area, just west of Paris proper.

As long as they keep it off the historical center!  ;-)

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 01:57:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

La Phare

Le Phare

Wht the fuck do writers in English insist on using French words when they write when they never, EVER, EVER use them correctly? I swear I have never, EVER, EVER read an Englsih-language thriller where French words were used and where these French words were correct. Why? Why do they feel the need to use French words without checking them?

Because only English readers matter, and using French makes you superior, and as all English speakers are ignorant and don't know better, nobody can call you on your ignorance?

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 08:08:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, Jerome, I was about to let this article go today, because I was afraid it would get your blood going too much.  But this is too perfect an occasion to pass it up.  ;-)

A mistake in French is not merely a slip; it is a transgression. The person who commits what the French call a "faute," the authors write, "is seen as being not only unworthy of the language, but even a traitor to it." Only France could have a best seller called "Knights of the Subjunctive."

Comment dit-on "ducks and runs" en français?

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 10:36:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Pointing out the obvious here, bun the US at least, French is a sign of sophistication. Since hardly anyone can speak it much less care in the way French people do about how the language is used, there is no mechanism to ensure proper use.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 01:29:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Although to be honest even I would have got that one right...

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 01:29:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Independent: Litvinenko 'smuggled nuclear material' (29 November 2006)
In an interview with The Independent shortly after the poisoning became public, Mr Scaramella said that Mr Litvinenko, a friend and professional contact since 2001, told him he had masterminded the smuggling of radioactive material to Zurich in 2000. There have long been concerns that turmoil in Russia and other former Soviet states after the fall of Communism created an international black market in radioactive substances.

The operation would have been one of the last carried out by Mr Litvinenko while still an FSB officer, in a unit tackling organised crime and smuggling. He fled Russia for London that year after the FSB began investigating him for corruption - charges which he claimed were invented as revenge for his decision to expose an FSB plot to assassinate the Russian oligarch Boris Berezovsky.

Friends of Mr Litvinenko, a critic of the Russian President, Vladimir Putin, said last night that they were unaware of his involvement with any smuggling for the FSB. Alex Goldfarb, an ally of Mr Berezovsky, said: "He did not mention anything about nuclear material while serving with the FSB."



Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 07:16:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The Sun: Shock twist to 'nuke' murder (November 29, 2006)
Former Russian spy Alexander Litvinenko feared he had been poisoned by Italian academic Mario Scaramella, it was revealed yesterday.

Pal Yuri Felshtinsky, who wrote a book with Litvinenko, 43, says the stricken ex-KGB man named the Italian in a deathbed phone call.

He told Felshtinsky, 50, that Scaramella seemed nervous and ate nothing when they met in a London sushi restaurant on November 1, after which the Russian fell ill.



Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 07:20:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What ? What are you doing reading the Sun ?????

Don't tell me, it just fell open at page 3 ;-))

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 07:36:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It was the primary source for a google news cluster of stories.

Is page 3 online?

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 07:38:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Is page 3 online?

I have absolutely no idea. But most companies have prohibitions about searching for pornography.


keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 07:43:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
KLATSCH
by Fran on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 12:50:38 AM EST
Hello Fran! If you're still around, can you put up the right link to the Protestant story above, since at the moment it sends us here to the Klatsch ?
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 01:30:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hi afew! now I know why the Klatsch link didn't work at first, this morning. thanks.
by Fran on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 01:32:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Nicola Sarkozy, pourquoi ton père a fui la Hongrie?

Anyone have the English translation?

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 02:43:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Basically the song makes the reproach that Sarkozy, himself son of an immigrant, should not clamp down on immigration.

But the clip has a "little" stench of antisemitism, quite obvious when you see the caricature of Sarko with a kippa and a big nose... Even the title of the song can imply that his father flew Hungary because he was persecuted there...  

has Dieudonné sponsored the clip ? There is a rise of black antisemitism in France.

by oldfrog on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 11:29:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But the clip has a "little" stench of antisemitism, quite obvious when you see the caricature of Sarko with a kippa and a big nose

I did not notice this.  Thanks for pointing it out.  Obviously answering anti-Black/Arab racism with anti-Semitic racism is totally unacceptable.

Has Dieudonné sponsored the clip?

I have never heard of Dieudonné; the clip was forwarded to me by a French Jewish friend of mine who leans very left politically.

There is a rise of black antisemitism in France.

How bad is this?

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 08:41:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Dieudonné is a black French stand-up comedian who was very popular until he started with some anti-semitic comments...

There are blacks that consider that the Jews are to blame for the conditions and the anti-black racism (in general) because they "monopolize" the attention over what happened to them, while the horrors of slavery and colonisation are "forgotten".

link wikipedia

I think there are similar tendencies in teh US with guys like Farrahkan.

by oldfrog on Thu Nov 30th, 2006 at 01:52:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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