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The Atlantic Rift

by Alexander G Rubio Wed Feb 1st, 2006 at 02:41:14 PM EST


Robert Kagan
Ever since the 9/11 terrorist attacks and the advent of the Iraq war in particular, but really predating those events by at least a decade, there's been a perception that the Atlantic powers have been drifting apart, and, on the American side, that Europe has grown complacent and unwilling to stand up in defence of itself or its principles. This notion was famously popularised by Robert Kagan in his phrase, "Americans are from Mars and Europeans are from Venus".

The same attitude underlies historian Victor Davis Hanson's "Letter to the Europeans", published in The National Review Online on January 6 of this year, decrying what he saw as European failure to live up to their heritage.


Victor Davis Hanson
It is safe to say that I took exception to some of Mr Hanson's statements. And on January 8 I wrote a response to his open letter (published at Bitsofnews.com and The European Tribune). Following its publication there have been some replies directed at my mail-box, most of them a tad heavy on the expletives. But that is after all the nature of the internet beast, irrespective of whether the question under debate is war and peace, or the virtues, or lack of said, of someone's favourite television show.

But there is room for reasoned debate, and honestly held differences of opinion, so when I received a well written letter from Mr William Bichteman in defence of Mr Hanson, I felt honour bound to respond to it.

With the kind permission of Mr Bichteman, his letter is reproduced below, along with my reply.


Mr. Rubio,

I appreciate that you took the time to formulate a response to Mr. Hanson and I read your letter with great interest.  Like many Americans, I'm always looking for the European viewpoint from an actual European without having it filtered through the media.  However, I think there are some aspects of this conflict that you have overlooked or distorted, so much so that I feel compelled to reply.

First, I feel that the argument against invasion on the basis of potential WMDs is easy to make in hindsight, but the fact remains that at the time there was no disagreement that they were likely there.  Europe and America both concluded that Hussein was likely hiding something, we only differed on what we were willing to do about it.  For Europe to take an "I told you so" attitude is to distort the facts and disown your own responsibility.  Given Saddam Hussein's pattern of deception and sleight of hand, the fact that Europe seems willing to interpret the fact that no weapons have yet been found as absolute proof that they never existed is simply naive.

Additionally, let's not forget that Europe threw diplomacy on the tracks when France, Germany and Russia announced they would never support military action, effectively declawing the threat of invasion as a bargaining tool and leaving us with only the act.  I believe this disavowal of arms was motivated purely by their own political and financial interests, which makes the "War For Oil" protests even more irritating.

As for alliances, I believe that no one was more surprised than George Bush when our European allies decided to back down and leave us hanging in the air.  Had our European allies stood firm and joined us in taking the necessary steps to remove a dangerous man from power things would appear much different today.  God knows, we could certainly use the help over there and it goes without saying that Iraq would be more stable and it's citizens better protected if Europe would pitch in and do it's share.  Politically, the position of all Western nations would have been strengthened by displaying a united front showing that we are universally resolved to not tolerate threatening and deceitful behavior by dictator states.  As it is, Europe's inaction and willingness to rend alliances in order to protect it's own short term interests have seriously weakened our hand in dealing with Iran and North Korea.

Finally, in response to your assertion that Europe prudently abstained from participation because she was smart enough to recognize a war that couldn't be won I can only raise my eyebrows in wonder.  This war in Iraq can certainly be won, but only if all freedom loving nations do their part.  You all have a stake in this and we in America are not oblivious to the fact that we're being taken advantage of.  I agree that it's unlikely that the United States alone can dismantle every terrorist organization or overthrow every cruel dictatorship, but we shouldn't have to go it alone and eventually we won't need to.  You can't escape this war and your only choice is to decide how much of an advantage you're willing to give these terrorists and dictators before you're forced to deal with them.

In any case, I respect your right to your opinions and thank you for entertaining mine.  I remain confident in the hope that our nations will smooth over these differences and find our bonds of friendship, trust and understanding strengthened and renewed.

Yours,

William Bichteman

USA

The following is my reply to Mr Bichteman:

    Hello!

    Let me start out by saying that one of the reasons that I went to the effort of writing the response in question to Mr Hanson, is that I deeply respect his earlier historical work, on Greek antiquity in particular. My recent piece on Epaminondas and Thebes for example (Available here, at Bitsofnews.com and here, at The European Tribune) should make abundantly clear that on many subjects our inclinations coincide.

    My feeling though is that Mr Hanson's political sympathies, becoming more pronounced in recent years, have taken on such a strident character as to not only cloud his view on contemporary matters, but to also skew his judgement on historical research. His latest, and to my mind inferior, work, on the Peloponnesian war comes to mind, in which he draws overt, but tenuous, parallels between ancient Athens and modern day America, but fails to notice the eerie analogy between that state's catastrophic Sicilian venture and the Iraqi campaign of today.

    Now as regards the intelligence reports from various agencies of different nationalities on Iraq's alleged WMD programs, there are a couple of points to be raised. First, the reports on this from French, German and Italian intelligence were arguably exaggerated by US analysts and political circles. But aside from that (and here we may be touching upon very real cultural differences), Europeans, being of a, some times too pronounced, sceptical nature, understood that intelligence work is about throwing a wide net and then sifting through the information collected, using sound judgement. Some source, with motives of his own, intimating that Iraq is a couple of years away from acquiring nuclear weapons, or Angelina Jolie carrying the spawn of lizard people from an alien planet, does not make it so. And the claims when it came to Iraq sounded to most Europeans, who after all have closer ties to, and more of a shared history with, the Middle-East, well, dubious, to say the least.

    As to the nations of Europe throwing a spanner in the works of the diplomacy ahead of the war, that doesn't really stand up to scrutiny. France, being perhaps the poster-boy of European reticence in this case, were quite clear that they would support this action, with troops, as they did in the first Gulf War, if the inspection teams, given the time they asked for, were to report back that they had either found evidence of WMDs or been hindered from fulfilling their task by the Iraqis.

    But in the end, the US being determined from the outset to invade, all this is moot. It was obvious, from a European perspective, having had, as I've pointed out, some previous experience with conflicts in these areas, that, no, you could not "win" this thing, at least not in a manner which the US defined as a victory. Yes, it was obvious to anyone of sound mind, you would beat the regular Iraqi army handily. Belgium could have done that. But occupying the country, now that's another matter entirely. Then we're talking about a bleeding sore that will not heal, and I'm speaking now more of economic losses, than losses in terms of casualties. Europeans, politicians as well as common men and women, I think, immediately saw, played out like a predictable movie in front of their inner eye, the disintegration of the nation, nascent civil-war and theocracy resulting.

    Can you blame them for wanting no part of that?

    All the best.

        Alexander G. Rubio



This article is also available at Bitsofnews.com and Daily Kos.

Display:
Good job Mr Rubio!

I doubt you will be able to convince your correspondant, particularly on the issue of WMD and alliances if he only viewed US news sources in the run up to the war.

I'd be tempted to point out to him that an alliance can only act united after it has gained a unanimous decision on a course of action. Given the Downing Street memos etc. it is clear that this is not the timeline of events.

Blah, as that would convince him.

It is a noble attempt though!

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Wed Feb 1st, 2006 at 02:59:06 PM EST
What else can be said than very good job indeed. I admire your courage. An example of what can be done at our modest level. Congratulations.

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Wed Feb 1st, 2006 at 03:48:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Both letters are will written and succintly post the core disagreements and misunderstandings, and are thus extremely useful. Thanks to you for posting them, and to Mr Bichteman for his polite and reasonable letter.

Of course, for the record, I very much agree with you.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Feb 1st, 2006 at 03:25:51 PM EST
since the WaPo pundit seems to assume that France or other European countries only want to do "damage control" with the USA. Instead of following shared interests.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/31/AR2006013101081.html

Still...

by Detlef (Detlef1961_at_yahoo_dot_de) on Wed Feb 1st, 2006 at 04:16:54 PM EST
Not that biased IMO.
by Euroliberal on Thu Feb 2nd, 2006 at 10:32:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I used to think that America was zombified by their media which have a local monopoly in global information since only 5% of Americans have a passport (I think that number is correct - correct me if I am wrong).

Travel is the great educator. Even travelling in Europe (which many of us do, I guess) is edifying. The rich cultural diversity of the countries of Europe cannot at all be compared to the states of the United States which are far more homogenous. Travelling further afield is even more edifying. Reality does not come in soundbites. It requires thought and personal experience.

But it appears to me now that the ever widening cultural gap between Europe and the US is based on more fundamental structural differences that the Bush reign has brought out. One of these is that America sees everything and every other country as a resource. Another is that the concept of dignity seems to not be understood.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Feb 1st, 2006 at 04:45:36 PM EST
Hang on, I think I'm taking offense...

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes
by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 1st, 2006 at 05:02:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If you've travelled abroad, and watch TV less than 10 hours a week then you are excused ;-)

Izzy - it's all sweeping statements, don't take it personally

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Feb 1st, 2006 at 05:16:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Um,  I take the fifth on both counts... I mean, I have travelled abroad, if by abroad you mean technically, y'know, leaving the country, although since 99% of said travel consisted of having tea with various relatives... and my tv viewing, well... okay, fine.  I'm guilty dammit.  I'm swept up like so much dust into the rubbish bin of... oh, forget it.  ;-)

Seriously, though, I'm sorry to say I'm offended and then disappear.  I wasn't in a sulk, I swear -- our server was down.

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes

by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 1st, 2006 at 09:11:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Gah, now I feel guilty for rating Sven a 4...

In my defense, his description of the way the US treats the "alliance" issue, (other countries as a resource) put me into a deja vu about a big political argument over Iraq I had with an ex-gf from the US.

No excuse, I know... but the flashbacks! It's worse than 'Nam I tells ya!

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Wed Feb 1st, 2006 at 05:35:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No feeling guilty!  I'm feeling guilty for being somewhat flippant and then disappearing (explanation above).

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes
by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 1st, 2006 at 09:16:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I believe it's actually about 20 percent.
by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Wed Feb 1st, 2006 at 06:24:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The percentage of US citizens with passports seems to be considerably larger than 5%. This estimate gives about 20%, and reports an estimate from the Economist of 34% (among those age 18 and older). A US State Department official speaks of 62 million Americans with passports.

Zogby reported that voters with passports favored Kerry over Bush by 58% to 35% in 2004. It has been suggested that a large portion of the travelling Bush supporters are in the military.

(I'm feeling researchy and informative today.)

Words and ideas I offer here may be used freely and without attribution.

by technopolitical on Wed Feb 1st, 2006 at 08:25:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
One minor effect of 9/11 is that the abolition of the  arrangements where US citizens could travel to a number of countries in the US's immediate back yard. I believe the new rules are yet to come into force for the two land borders so that the drunken trips to Mexico for Spring Break can carry on for the time being.

I would agree though with Sven about cultral diversity being more appreciated if you travel. I have qualms whether if, as I am afraid rather too many do, you merely go to a hotel or "resort"  run by an international group you actually get to see any. If the only nationals you get to speak to are the receptionist, waiter and maid you certainly do not get to appreciate the culture.

Far more important than seeing cultural diversity is to appreceiate the common experience of humanity. Without it we too easily dismiss the death of a child in Africa as of little concern as "they are used to it" or concur with the idea that those who do not share our traditions are "other" and sub-human.

by Londonbear on Thu Feb 2nd, 2006 at 09:19:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Diid not make it clear that the previous arrangements were passport-free. The new rules mean more will have to get them so the traditional 5% figure will rise.
by Londonbear on Thu Feb 2nd, 2006 at 09:20:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Another is that the concept of dignity seems to not be understood.

BINGO.

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

by p------- on Wed Feb 1st, 2006 at 11:11:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Funny, this is the exact part of the statement I was somewhat taking exception to.  The fact is that a lot of humans don't act very dignified most of the time, but that's not to say they don't understand or respect it.  

Not to give Sven or you a hard time, but saying a culture doesn't understand the concept of dignity is a classic form of the ol' us v. them rhetoric.  I've heard it too often applied to the poor, to women, and to minorities to let it slide by as a generalization.

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes

by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Feb 2nd, 2006 at 12:27:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I've heard it too often applied to the poor, to women, and to minorities to let it slide by as a generalization.

Really? I was actually thinking about mainstream culture.  I suppose it is true that we make it difficult for women and minorities to realize their self-worth.  But I think they, of all people, understand the concept of dignity simply because they spend more time dealing with the implications of being refused it.

It is the people who watch reality tv that I fear are completely ignorant of the value of dignity.  People don't dig through trashcans for food or work flipping burgers because they have no dignity.  They do it because they have to.  But no one has to watch American idol, much less, try out for it!  That's where having no dignity comes in.


Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

by p------- on Thu Feb 2nd, 2006 at 11:32:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I wasn't talking about self-worth.  I was saying that the tactic of saying one culture or group doesn't understand the concept of dignity is a not uncommon practice that's always meaningless and often offensive.  It doesn't matter if you're making the accusation against the mainstream or not.  As to the bit about the poor, I'll quote Cesar Chavez:

"Do not romanticize the poor...We are all people, human beings subject to the same temptations and faults as all others."

And it's just silly to generalize about the "mainstream" population based on whether they watch American Idol which, like Survivor is a re-make of a British show.  Does that make the British people incapable of understanding the concept of dignity?

There's plenty wrong with our culture.  There's also plenty wrong with people in general.  But there's nothing "exceptional" wrong with American people, although it would be nice to think so given the terrible things some of them are doing right now.  

I keep reading people being upset about American exceptionalism, but it seems to me they're helping perpetuate the notion if they say Americans are exceptionally anything -- good or bad.  Why don't we just admit that people are all the same instead of bashing each other, and then maybe we can figure out how to deal with these truly bad things that go on when the leaders are bad.


Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes

by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Feb 2nd, 2006 at 02:23:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
other nations their own dignity or their own being.  It has not always been as bad as now, but this has always been the tendancy.  


The Fates are kind.
by Gaianne on Thu Feb 2nd, 2006 at 02:10:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I kinda, sorta agree and disagree.  First, nations don't have dignity, people do.  Now, if you want to say that the current powers that be are showing a callous disregard for the dignity of other peoples, I'd completely agree.  And not to lessen that in any way, but it's not an "exceptional" trait of America.  I believe it's very common in situations where the leaders are abusing power.

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes
by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Feb 2nd, 2006 at 02:28:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Americans will not allow other nations their own dignity or their own being.

Now I find that offensive, and I'm not easily offended.

If you are referring to the American government, please say so.

If you truly mean to say that "Americans," every single one of us, is guilty of this, then I guess I won't be inviting you over for coffee.

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Thu Feb 2nd, 2006 at 03:13:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You shouldn't be offended. By all means, say the same thing for my country and my people and I would take it like a big boy. Truth hurts but I ain't hiding from it.

Americans (and not just the govt) are not free of guilt. They've shown repeatedly that it takes but a small effort for them to accept other people as "enemies". It takes less, for them to offer opinions on bombing other countries.

75% were on Bush's side when he marked Iraq as a target. 57% (according to recent polls) are in favor of bombing, even nuking Iran. Imagine... what % will be for it when the real propaganda kicks in.

These are numbers that show it's not political divisions or different points of view that motivate them to take such belligerent attitudes against other people. Its a cultural thing. It has to change. It must.

by Euroliberal on Thu Feb 2nd, 2006 at 10:29:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah, there we go.  That well just never runs dry.

Another brilliant contribution to the advancement of civil dialogue.

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Thu Feb 2nd, 2006 at 11:11:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What was offensive with my contribution? Did you understand anything I wrote?
by Euroliberal on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 06:58:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, insulting my intelligence is an excellent way to proceed.  Please continue.  Would you like to call me ugly, too?
by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 08:54:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You get insulted very easily. Too bad. It wasn't my intention to insult or offend you neither in my first nor in my second comment.
If that's how it sounded, I apologise.

Shouldn't it be me that feeling offended by your response? After all, you said that my comment was drying some well... and was not civil.

If you are honest, point out ONE reference in my original comment that lacked civility. One instance that I used anything but facts.

Did you disagree? Make your case.
You disagreed with two consecutive posts without offering any counterarguments. At least explain what in particular offends you. We may come to agree or disagree which is what dialogue is supposed to do.

by Euroliberal on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 10:11:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, you inserted yourself into the discussion by implying that I personally am immature ("take it like a big boy") because I took exception to being told that I personally (as a member of the group "Americans") "will not allow other nations their dignity."

After calling me a child, you then proceeded to repeat the original poster's error of over-generalizing.  Your words were:

Americans (and not just the govt) are not free of guilt. They've shown repeatedly that it takes but a small effort for them to accept other people as "enemies".

Please note that you did not say "some Americans" or even "most Americans."  You said "Americans."

In your third post, you asked if I failed to understand what you wrote.  No, in fact, it appears to be you who failed to understand what you wrote.

In short:  I was objecting to the original poster's choice of words, not to the sentiment that she was expressing.  You jumped in with a new set of insults.  I then objected to your choice of words, not to the sentiment you were expressing.

You, however, seem awfully eager to believe that I have some problem with people criticizing my country, which would conveniently confirm all of your pre-conceived notions about me.

I can assure you, however, that if that were true, I would not live where I live.

I really suggest at this point that you should move on.  There is nothing to be seen here.

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 11:07:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
your last sentence says it all.

You finally posted a coherent (but factually wrong) response but you feel like my side, my arguments do not deserve the same consideration as yours.

I think you just broke a lot of forum etiquete rules and demonstrated that you have little respect for differing opinions.

by Euroliberal on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 11:24:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I have said nothing, not one word, about the opinions expressed by either you or by Gaianne.  I have objected to the fact that you both insist on over-generalizing.  I do not expect that kind of intellectual laziness in this forum.
by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 11:37:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
but.... but you never asked me to qualify, clarify or otherwise explain my positions.

The only thing you did was ad hominem attacks based on some assumption that you chose to make.

by Euroliberal on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 12:04:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
OK, fine, be my guest.  Pull up a chair, have a cup of tea, and qualify, clarify or otherwise explain to your heart's content.

Feel better now?

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 12:40:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
thank you anyway.

I wish you the best. Peace.

by Euroliberal on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 01:58:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
BTW, stormy, the irony of this spat of yours is that Gaianne, who set this off, is American herself.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 04:32:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
:)  Hehe.  I do realize that....  But Americans don't get a free pass when it comes to making generalizations, even about ourselves.  It doesn't matter if we're from Michigan, Madrid or Mars!
by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 04:55:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't think she meant to make a generalisation (because I don't think she includes herself in that characterisation of behaviour), just used generalising language, which can be misunderstood all too easily.

BTW, I once got a letter published in Newsweek in which I blasted them for generalising language. (And the crooks re-edited some words central to my points.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 05:16:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think the media should be taken to task for it a lot more often.  But then, I guess on the list of things we have to complain about regarding the media, that may not even be in the top five...
by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 06:04:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
75% still doesn't make 100%. For the same of the other 25%, who may be 99% or more of the Americans posting here, please awoid generalising language.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Feb 2nd, 2006 at 11:14:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I expected better from you.

You let me down because I consider you much smarter.

Was I offensive to the particular poster? How? Hell, I should be offended for you trying to tell me that 75% is not 100% (!!!) as if you are talking to some some nine-year kid.

In fact, I have high esteem for him/her just for being a member of this community. This is not personal.

by Euroliberal on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 07:08:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If you added "Most" before 'Americans', I would have agreed with your post 100%. In fact I suspect stormy present would have agreed by a similar margin. Without the "most", your words can be read as over-generalisation, in fact both people who responded to you did so - even if as clear from the above you didn't intend that meaning.

It would be nice if you could admit that your wording was prone to be misunderstood and she could see that you didn't meant what she understood reading you, but sadly your discussion devolved into an unnecessary flame war...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 04:30:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
you are wrong here.

If one word was all that was needed, maybe I should have been asked to include it or at least explain my intentions.
While we are on the subject of linguistics, may I ask why should I be forced to include certain "keywords" in my opinions instead of others? For example, couldn't I argue that instead of using "most" Americans (your suggestion) to exclude those that might be offended, it should be implicitly assumed that unless I use "All" Americans then there is a part of Americans that are excluded.

Anyway, I stand by my comment and wish to change nothing. It's valid, it's what I believe and I'm sorry I lost the chance to have someone engage me with a counter-argument, honestly pointing out where we agree or disagree.

My words are my liberty.  Your displeasure is your own burden.

by Euroliberal on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 06:49:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If one word was all that was needed, maybe I should have been asked to include it or at least explain my intentions.

That's fair. However, the lack of that one word changed the perceived meaning of your entire text into something personal and offensive, so neither I nor stormy present realised that one word would have done it, I only realised it upon re-reading your text in light of your previous reply.

may I ask why should I be forced to include certain "keywords" in my opinions instead of others?

You are not forced anything, but are advised for the sake of being understood correctly. If two of us independently read 'Americans' to mean 'All Americans', then that's perhabs because the default meaning is usually the latter in that context. Or not. I now get a faint suspicion that this might be a case of differences between languages. At least there is a difference with my mother tongue - in it, you can't say 'Americans...' without a prefix, and if you say "the Americans", it means all. So maybe I read it so because of my Hungarian, but this is not valid for stormy present. (Perhabs Metatone can comment.) I don't know how it works in Portuguese.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 07:21:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, I meant Americans.  

There have always been good individuals, often very articulate and passionate.  

They have not carried the day.  

It does not work to blame the Government:  Yes the Government is bad, but it always has at least the acquiesence of a large minority, and usually the support of a majority.  

Without dredging the whole of US history, let me just say I have watched the US go to war several times.  There is NEVER any consideration of the goals nor the means.  War!  Yeah!  Let's do it!  (kill strangers in far away places).  It is only after it goes bad that we start to temporize:  Maybe it was a mistake.  It wasn't a mistake, it was what we wanted to do--the desire of our hearts.  

Our hearts really are rotten.  

Again:  Yes, I know there are exceptions, and yes, I was on the streets in New York City in February 2003.  It was fine, it was wonderful, and it was not enough.  Not nearly enough.  Most people wanted to shoot first and ask questions (if at all) after.  And that is what we did.  

Yes I am American.  And I learned some years ago that that is not something that can be changed--remember the part of the PATRIOT Act enabling Bush to declare at whim people to be un-citizens?--a useful tool for a tyrant, yes, but actually he hasn't a clue.  It is not something you can turn off and on like a lightbulb, and it matters not at all whether you like it or don't like it, or whether it is good or bad.  

But to return more closely to my original point:  Look at our stated goal in Iraq--to turn it into a land of Walmarts and McDonald's with a pseudo democracy just like ours.  We think this is a good thing!  This in a land that is thousands of years old--if they wanted McDonald's don't you think they might have invented it?  And if they do want it now, well fine, but how is it our duty to make them want it?  Using White Phosphorus . . . never mind I digress . . . just leave it at this:  

If that is not denying them their own being, what do you call it!  

Just and example.  

The Fates are kind.

by Gaianne on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 03:14:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In 2002 I finally made the trip to Europe that I had wanted to do for decades.  My wife and I came with an old friend and his wife, and we spent some time in Paris, Amsterdam, and in the Bordeaux region.  It was such a wonderful trip and everyone was so nice that it has been doubly shaming to watch the great idiocy that overtaken this country.  In fact, I think that is too kind a description,  and that actually a malevolent arrogance in train with greed and ignorance has been the face we have shown to the world.  Our federal system favors a "two party" system that easily devolves into a meaningless set of postures that anguishes over meaningless and esoteric phony problems while systematically handing itself over to the highest bidder, which is in general corporate.

I think that a lot of people like myself failed to remain politically active after the 70's and did not see the rise of the right as clearly as we should have.  This is a big country and difficult to right quickly especially when our media is so corporate and bland.  The size of the country and our isolation and failure to travel coupled with a fair degree of innate self-satisfaction left us easy picking for knaves.  The destruction of the two buildings on Sept 11, 2001, infuriated and terrified us, and was a political blessing for a president who was already suspect.  Unbelievably, he threw away the great outpouring of sympathy and support offered by the great majority of the world and seemed to intentionally offend those same people.

But I suspect you mostly know all of that, and what I really want to say is that many of us respect the European peoples and admire the humane civilization you are trying to craft.  Thank you for your courtesy when I visited.  We are trying to do better here, so please wish us well.

"I said, 'Wait a minute, Chester, You know I'm a peaceful man...'" Robbie Robertson

by NearlyNormal on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 02:12:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Excellent AGR...thanks for allowing us in on the converstation. You stood up well!

"Once in awhile we get shown the light, in the strangest of places, if we look at it right" - Hunter/Garcia
by whataboutbob on Wed Feb 1st, 2006 at 04:48:46 PM EST
i thought the angelina line was a bit....undignified!

go rubio!

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Thu Feb 2nd, 2006 at 04:14:12 AM EST
I always thought that Brad looked a little alien :-)

Come see TV from the Reality-Based Community at RealityBasedTV.com
by Markinsanfran (mark@RealityBasedTV.com) on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 05:44:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]


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