Welcome to European Tribune. It's gone a bit quiet around here these days, but it's still going.

Kosovo's new president and the negotiations on the final status

by qika PR Tue Feb 28th, 2006 at 07:17:34 PM EST

After 15 years, Kosovo has a new president.  However, with the final status process underway, not much attention has been paid to the role that the new president can play. This is what I address in my diary.


The Pristina-Belgrade talks regarding Kosovo's final status began on February 20th after being postponed due to the death of Kosovo's President, Ibrahim Rugova, on January 21st.  So far, discussions have predominately focused on the potential outcome of the negotiations and its impact in the region.  Few remarks have been made on how Kosovo's new president, Fatmir Sejdiu, could influence the negotiations as leader of the Pristina negotiation team.

Rugova was without doubt a charismatic leader who after being president for fifteen years gained the status of the "father of the nation." He was president during the establishment of the parallel Kosovar government and institutions during the Milosevic regime in Serbia.  The presidential position was personified with Rugova and his role as leader of the Pristina negotiation team was and would have remained merely symbolic.  However, his successor, Sejdiu--who was secretary general of Rugova's party, the Democratic League of Kosovo (LDK)--promises to be more active, dynamic, and perhaps more constructive in the negotiation process.  

"What for Rugova was more of an honorary position (to lend weight to the actual negotiators) will be a very real job for the new man. Indeed, Sejdiu called a first meeting of the team for the day after his election, after it had not met in three months."  

So far, Sejdiu has gained the approval of the local Albanian political actors.  He was elected president with a respectable 2/3 of the parliament's votes and many have called him a "consensual president." Even Veton Surroi, an opposition leader and a previous harsh critic of the LDK, said that


[t]he change of guard gives a chance to ease out corrupt old-timers and promote people who know economics.

The Economist. "When Hard Truths Shock.  Kosovo Serbs hardly believe their fate."
2/18/2006, Vol. 378 Issue 8465, p50-50

As for the international actors, the initial fear after Rugova's death was that there would be power clashes amongst the Albanian politicians. Pleased with Sejdiu's election, the international community sees him as a realistic politician.  He comes across as more articulate and determined in his goals.  His goals without doubt include an independent Kosovo since any other aim would mean political suicide for Kosovar politicians.  Being more pragmatic and somewhat moderate, Sejdiu has the potential to play a constructive role in the final status talks.

In the context of the Pristina-Belgrade talks, their nature has been generally misapprehended by the international press.  Many international diplomats have already admitted that Kosovo will most likely have conditional independence--


code for full independence after a transitional period, but with certain safeguards for Kosovo's remaining Serbs.

The Economist. "Independent Thinking.  The behind-the-scenes diplomacy that will settle Kosovo's future."
1/21/2006, Vol. 378 Issue 8461, p51-51


John Sawers, the political director of the British Foreign Office told a group of Kosovo Serbs that the contact groups "had decided firmly that Kosovo should have independence, and Serbs must make the best of it. [...] At the office in Vienna where Martti Ahtisaari, a former Finnish president, is preparing to host the talks on Kosovo's status, there was quiet satisfaction over the diplomat's clear message: he was telling a hard truth that needed telling.

The Economist. "When Hard Truths Shock.  Kosovo Serbs hardly believe their fate."
2/18/2006, Vol. 378 Issue 8465, p50-50


In an interview for Der Spiegel a week ago, Ahtisaari said that "the population of Kosovo should finally decide on what the future of Kosovo would be - 90 per cent of the population are Albanians - what do you think, what will their decision be."


If the outcome is already agreed, what is the point of Mr Ahtisaari's negotiations? The answer, in the words of one diplomat, is that they "are not about the status of Kosovo...[but about] negotiating the status of the Serbs in Kosovo."

The Economist. "Independent Thinking.  The behind-the-scenes diplomacy that will settle Kosovo's future."
1/21/2006, Vol. 378 Issue 8461, p51-51


As such, the aim of the talks appears to be merely the creation of means for integrating the Serb minority in Kosovo.
And it is precisely at this point where Sejdiu can make a difference. Some Serbian political actors have already showed a change in behavior.  The leader of the Serbian Democratic Party of Kosovo--that is part of the current government--Dragisa Miric, addressed Sejdiu in a manner that he has never addressed Rugova.  
"We are willing to offer political support and any other support, and we are ready to actively participate in the building of a multiethnic and democratic society in Kosovo."
Thus, on the ground in Kosovo,"Sejdiu managed to be a conciliatory figure even with the local Serbs."  For others, an important feature of Sejdiu is the fact that he does not have a military past.  The latter is of great importance since leaders of the other main parties in Kosovo--Hashim Thaci from the Democratic Party of Kosovo and Ramush Hajradinaj from the Alliance for the Future of Kosovo--were both involved in the Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA) during the war.  Oliver Ivanovic, the head of the Serbian List for Kosovo--the largest Serbian party in Kosovo--emphasized this point when referring to Sejdiu, "[i]t is very important that he does not have military past. Till now this was an obstacle for communication between Serbian community and such people."  
Without doubt, no one can expect the Serbian attitude towards an independent Kosovo to change due to a new president.  However, if the cards are played right, Sejdiu can bring a new attitude to the negotiation table. When Hajradinaj was prime minister--before being sent to International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia--he managed to reach out to the Serbs in Kosovo.  Sejdiu has a better chance to do so due to his pacifist background and current impressions.  Thus, since the negotiations are merely serving the purpose of improving the status of the Serbs in Kosovo, Sejdiu can use his personal leverage as a pragmatist politician to soothe the negotiation process.

Display:
Thank you for the post. I read it with great interest and some hope from what you write.

I, for one, would look forward to more diaries on this process going on in Kosovo. Please continue to update -thanks again.

by aden on Tue Feb 28th, 2006 at 08:35:45 PM EST
I think that this issue needed to be adressed, not only because it has been silent for a long time, but also because it serves as an intro to something that has always been bigger than the ability of the people to explain it.
by SdRaWkCaB on Wed Mar 1st, 2006 at 03:54:56 AM EST
Also important about the Pristina-Belgrade negotiations is the fact that the talks have not begun directly about the final status.  The issues that are firstly being discussed are regarding the decentralization process. On the first meeting on February 20, the delegates discussed the competencies at the municipal level in areas, such as, health care, education, culture, social welfare, police and justice.

On the second meeting, which is scheduled for March 17th, the discussions will continue on conceptual aspects of decentralization, such as, local finance, inter-municipal cooperation and links between Kosovo municipalities and municipalities in Serbia.

So, the negotiations teams--in particular the international and Albanian actors--are addressing the negotiation process by focusing on the more practical and functional issues of the future Kosovo that will be governed by local authorities.  As such, it provides for better ways to integrate the Serbian minority into Kosovo by removing all the attention on what the final outcome will be--since many Serbs still reject an independent Kosovo.  

by qika PR (qikadreqit@yahoo.com) on Wed Mar 1st, 2006 at 04:27:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Quote:
[t]he change of guard gives a chance to ease out corrupt old-timers and promote people who know economics.
The Economist. "When Hard Truths Shock.  Kosovo Serbs hardly believe their fate."
2/18/2006, Vol. 378 Issue 8465, p50-50
*
 What kind of "economics" he was talking about exactly? I don't really know what exactly is going to be independent Kosovo's government source of income once when Americans and others are not interested to pay for their "Kosovo military camp"...


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Wed Mar 1st, 2006 at 08:23:16 AM EST
I really wish you'd write some diaries on this stuff.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Mar 1st, 2006 at 08:25:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I second that request.
by aden on Wed Mar 1st, 2006 at 09:08:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's not the first time it's been made, but she keeps declining it.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Mar 1st, 2006 at 09:14:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ok, well I wasn't here and I just cam back...

That statement was made by Veton Surroi, who is the leader of the new party ORA.  His party was actually one of the few that presented a real platform in the elections and the put a lot of emphasis on the economy--which is contrary to the three leading political parties in Kosovo that continually base their claims on independence.

Surroi mainly implied that new comers might bring a different light to the political scene and that the money coming into Kosovo will actually be spend for its purpose.  

And I don't think that once Kosovo becomes independent the interest will fade away because the United Nations Mission in Kosovo (UNMIK) has been one of the most expensive peacekeeping operations.  Even though there have been budget cuts in the past two years, UNMIK has received so much criticism that I do believe it will try to leave a somewhat stable place behind.  

Also, there will be new resources coming into the country as well as new initiatives.  At the same time, no one doubts that it will take time for Kosovo to develop a prosperous economy--just as it took with other Central and Eastern European countries.  


The European Commission
, the executive arm of the European Union, has proposed a number of economic and educational initiatives intended to stabilize the Western Balkans, increase their prosperity, and in due course prepare the countries of the region for inclusion in the European body.

European Union Commissioner for Enlargement Ollie Rehn said during the announcement: "While the Kosovo status process is moving ahead, we need to encourage the people of the Western Balkans to look forward to their European future, not back to the nationalism of the past. The best way to do that is to focus on practical measures which will integrate their economies and societies into the European mainstream."
Some of the initiatives proposed include:
    * Support for a regional free trade agreement
    * Extension of the European Charter for Small Enterprises for three additional years
    * A €60m contribution in 2006 to the recently established European Fund for South-East Europe
    * Extension of the civil society dialogue throughout the region
* Increase in the number of scholarships provided to students and researchers from the region


by qika PR (qikadreqit@yahoo.com) on Wed Mar 1st, 2006 at 09:27:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Quote:
And I don't think that once Kosovo becomes independent the interest will fade away because the United Nations Mission in Kosovo (UNMIK) has been one of the most expensive peacekeeping operations.  Even though there have been budget cuts in the past two years, UNMIK has received so much criticism that I do believe it will try to leave a somewhat stable place behind.  
*
So you are depending on UNMIK to feed your people? If you get independence and Serbs sign it there will be NO NEED for UNMIK and what then? Some other charity?
Quote:
Also, there will be new resources coming into the country as well as new initiatives.  At the same time, no one doubts that it will take time for Kosovo to develop a prosperous economy--just as it took with other Central and Eastern European countries.  
*How can you compare Kosovo with "other Central and Eastern European countries? Hellllooo! To compare:
Quote:
Kosova is one of Europe's poorest regions, with more than half of its people living in poverty.
...The economy is primarily agricultural: wheat, maize, potatoes, grapes. Livestock; cattle, sheep, pigs. Kosova has always been one of the least developed regions within former Yugoslavia
*
...with Czechoslovakia, Poland or...
Kosovo is not and never have been even organized state. You simply do not know what you are talking about. You may be young and enthusiastic but it dosn't pardon you for spreading farce stories...


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Wed Mar 1st, 2006 at 10:03:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
After Kosovo gains its "conditional independence" the plan is for the European Union to take over the administration to oversee the development of the country. Of course Kosovo will be no Switzerland, but there are mining complexes (to mention Trepca and Ferronikel) and the World Bank estimation was that there are 10-15 billion Euros worth of mineral wealth.
It is not as if Kosovo is doomed. There is potential for Kosovo's economy to develop to a sustainable stage and subsist. Of course that is not enough, but it has the youngest population in Europe (65% are younger than 30) which proves to be a great working force. Although, there are problems with education and working skills, there is a high sense of entrepreneurship and self-subsistence.

Also, accusing someone of not knowing what he/she is talking about is a harsh statement. Similarly, one can argue about your comments.

by AmonRa on Wed Mar 1st, 2006 at 10:29:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Quote:
World Bank estimation was that there are 10-15 billion Euros worth of mineral wealth.
*

Great! What stopped you enjoying all that wealth to this day? I suppose once you get independence (divorce) court will have to split this wealth and at least half should go to Serbia. What do you think? Oh you probably do not like it? Oh you actually would prefer to take everything and just leave? There is a price to be paid when splitting...or your EU/USA protectors are judges here and we all know their justice. They announce the verdict and than they call you to defend your self...talks in Austria...what a laughing stock! What a democracy! Really who would like to be part of EU as it is looking today?

Quote:
Also, accusing someone of not knowing what he/she is talking about is a harsh statement. Similarly, one can argue about your comments.

*
Sorry but what else could be said to someone who compares Kosovo with Czechoslovakia, Poland, or others...It can hardly be compared to Albania...

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein

by vbo on Wed Mar 1st, 2006 at 10:51:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
 You can take it as a comparison if you want, but all I meant was that Kosovo would not be the first or the last that will undergo difficulties in establishing a state.  Try comparing it with Macedonia for a change.
by qika PR (qikadreqit@yahoo.com) on Wed Mar 1st, 2006 at 11:05:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Cynicism, cynicism, cynicism...
by AmonRa on Wed Mar 1st, 2006 at 11:05:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Sorry but what else could be said to someone who compares Kosovo with Czechoslovakia, Poland, or others...It can hardly be compared to Albania...


Countries compare to each other in order to set the standards for improvement. Its human nature, it has always been and I find it hard to believe that at some point of history countries did not have such an aim. Communism spread because leaders thought it was working, fascism did the same and it will always be like that. So basically I don't think that the world will wake up weaker if one compares his/her country with some other. Makes one have a prospective for the future. That's no crime...as far as I know.
by SdRaWkCaB on Wed Mar 1st, 2006 at 11:12:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The location of the Trepca mine is at issue, isn't it? This is part of the tug of war over a slice of land.
by Upstate NY on Wed Mar 1st, 2006 at 11:30:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
All of the countries at some point have been very poor and they were helped by the richer part of the international arena to actually get back on their feet. This money kept on going, in terms of investments and other projects carried by either private or state owned companies in order to create a base for the economy of the country to grow. Some of these countries represent important political actors. For examples after the WWII a lot of European countries were left with an excruciated economy, had not the international arena helped these countries they would have never become what they are now...so to speak...


Kosovo is not and never have been even organized state. You simply do not know what you are talking about. You may be young and enthusiastic but it doesn't pardon you for spreading farce stories...

Pardon me for quoting especially this... but to the extent of my knowledge I do think that people who live in a specific region and especially country have a clearer view of the internal situation than that of an outside observer. Just because Kosovo has never had the chance to be an organized country--which I very doubt so... since the war finished there is a lot of positive changes going on and to prove that they are not living in tribes I do think that you should pay a visit--nevertheless all these does not mean that they cannot prosper as an independent organized state.
Following your point of view it seems like states were born states and countries were born countries... None of the states existing today--being them from Europe, Balkans, Asia, Africa, US or Australia--were not organized before getting organized.
By giving that statement it seems like you are denying the right of the people of Kosovo to leave in an independent state, my question is why did the other people deserve the chance of trying--and then achieving--and Kosovars do not.
The international arena has taken the responsibility to provide help for the countries in need, and it will do so for as long as there is need. There are several steps that need to be taken and they do not happen overnight. After the foreign aid will be terminated, there will be foreign investment and so on. I would like to remind you that we live in a globalized world and there is no country--be that poor or rich--that does not have foreign capital incorporated in its economy.
by SdRaWkCaB on Wed Mar 1st, 2006 at 11:03:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Quote:
By giving that statement it seems like you are denying the right of the people of Kosovo to leave in an independent state, my question is why did the other people deserve the chance of trying--and then achieving--and Kosovars do not.
*
You are right! I am denying the right of the ALBANIANS of Kosovo to live in an independent state made of Kosovo. Because Albanians ALREADY HAVE INDEPENDANT STATE and it's name is A L B A N I A !

For all of them who are sending money to you I am sure they already said "goodbye" to that money and consider it as a charity (or better military camp low payments).And for investors that you are hoping to see later I can only say "God help them"...

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein

by vbo on Wed Mar 1st, 2006 at 11:47:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ok what i think is the problem here is a common narrow-mindness that is related to the fact that citizens of the world are used to associate a nationality as well as ethnicity to only one country, and i am sure that the whole concept of have two independent organized states with the same nationality is confusing and it kind of drives away from the from the imagine of the perfect world that has been advertised so far... but i think that its about time for people to address world issues with a more open mind. It the international arena who made of Albania a puzzle and I don't think that its time for the puzzle to be solved or at least at the present this specific peace of the puzzle does not fit anymore and that should be clear by now.

Based upon your logic... I don't think for example that the US will give up all its people just because they belong to different nationalities and neither would Australia--I am using these examples as the two places that their existence is solely dependent on the migration. Will you agree to make of US and Australia a desert just because different people of different nationalities and ethnicities live there. Imagine if all Italians decide to go to ITALY. All the French decide to go to FRANCE etc etc mmhhh i would love to see that kind of world!

by SdRaWkCaB on Wed Mar 1st, 2006 at 05:56:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You are talking nonsense and intentionally. It does not help that you are obviously very literate.
I will not even bother to comment. Everyone with a grain of brain can see where you are going. For others it would be a waste of time anyway to explain about USA and Australia...


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Wed Mar 1st, 2006 at 06:21:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
OK according to you looks like EU, USA and the world are "NARROW MINDED" because otherwise at least Serbs in Bosnia and Croatia will be allowed to have two more states prior to Balkan wars and those wars wouldn't be necessary at all.. Why the fear of "greater Serbia" is bigger then a fear "from greater Albania "that they are promoting with this Kosovo policy? What is it that EU/USA are getting with this policy except their military camp I am very curious to know...but all in good time I suppose...

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Wed Mar 1st, 2006 at 06:32:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Many of your comments come through as being tinted with animosity towards Kosovo Albanians, perhaps it would help to remind you that no one gets to choose where they are born. If you have an issue with this, you may want to take it up with your local transport authority, deportation has been in vogue for some time now.
by Alex in Toulouse on Thu Mar 2nd, 2006 at 08:19:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not sure what you meant by this?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Mar 2nd, 2006 at 08:25:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I meant that if vbo has an issue against people being born to Albanian ancestors inside Kosovo, then the deportation of Kosovo Albanians to Albania is still an option for him/her.
by Alex in Toulouse on Thu Mar 2nd, 2006 at 08:33:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Quote:
Many of your comments come through as being tinted with animosity towards Kosovo Albanians, perhaps it would help to remind you that no one gets to choose where they are born. If you have an issue with this, you may want to take it up with your local transport authority, deportation has been in vogue for some time now.
*
Alex , what kind of comment is this? Where the heck I mentioned "deportation"??? Please direct me! I am talking about SECESSION RIGHTS for minorities. Of course a lot of Kosovo Albanians are born on Kosovo, but how this is a reason good enough  for secession?
A lot of Bosnian Serbs are born in Bosnia and Croatian Serbs were born in Croatia - WHY this was not reason good enough for secession of their piece of land. WHY double standards?
And why the hell nobody is answering my questions ? Try...

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Thu Mar 2nd, 2006 at 08:34:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You didn't mention deportation, I did. As a quick fix.

You deny "the right of the ALBANIANS of Kosovo to live in an independent state made of Kosovo. Because Albanians ALREADY HAVE INDEPENDANT STATE and it's name is A L B A N I A !", and go on about "this is [not] a reason good enough for secession", and I'm just trying to help you find a quick solution in adequation with your opinion.

by Alex in Toulouse on Thu Mar 2nd, 2006 at 08:41:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I feel that all you're going to achieve with that line of argument is to further inflame the discussion. I'd suggest that this is probably a good time to make your point directly rather than indirectly.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Mar 2nd, 2006 at 08:45:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ok, you're right. I was just putting to practice what I have been taught in the past ... that the best way to get someone to understand who they are, is to imitate them. (in this case I chose cynicism and to push/extrapolate vbo's position all the way to deportation). My bad.
by Alex in Toulouse on Thu Mar 2nd, 2006 at 08:53:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Now that I have said this, after some introspection, I can easily conclude that I would be pissed off if Toulouse's region decided to become independent (because I live in it and this would complicate things for me, at the very least at an administrative level, and because I can't identify any particularity of the region to justify seccession).

However, I have no objections whatsoever to the Basque Region, the Perpignan Catalonia region, Corsica, Polynesia, New Caledonia, Guyana, Martinique, La Réunion, Guadeloupe, Mayotte, St Pierre et Miquelon et al., precisely because I recognize that in these places there is a particularity which can justify seccession, should the people desire that, whatever their reasons, and whatever the consequences for them, be they financially sound or not. As long as I can still go there easily with my French ID card or passport (as otherwise I will point you back to the top of my comment, about administrative problems).

by Alex in Toulouse on Thu Mar 2nd, 2006 at 09:15:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Quote:
However, I have no objections whatsoever to the Basque Region, the Perpignan Catalonia region, Corsica, Polynesia, New Caledonia, Guyana, Martinique, La Réunion, Guadeloupe, Mayotte, St Pierre et Miquelon et al., precisely because I recognize that in these places there is a particularity which can justify seccession, should the people desire that, whatever their reasons, and whatever the consequences for them, be they financially sound or not.
*
The day when all of them and others around Europe obtain independence I suppose Serbs too will be eligible to one , well then we can talk seriously about Albanian Kosovo independence...

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Thu Mar 2nd, 2006 at 09:42:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's good to see your sense of humour is alive :))

You just did me a "prritss" coupled with a friendly "pitchka ti matrina" (I picked these up from a few Serb/Croat/Bosnian people I've known here in Toulouse, no offence intended!)

by Alex in Toulouse on Thu Mar 2nd, 2006 at 09:59:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
We obviously have totally different sense of humor...because I am very serious here.
All though from this part of your statement:

"You just did me a "prritss" coupled with a friendly "pitchka ti matrina" (I picked these up from a few Serb/Croat/Bosnian people I've known here in Toulouse, no offence intended!)"
*
I would say that you are right on my track and we actually communicate very well, ha-ha So at some point I became suspicious  that you must be much more familiar to Balkan and Serbian character then you would like to show....

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein

by vbo on Thu Mar 2nd, 2006 at 10:17:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, among others, Haris Burina lived in Toulouse for a few years, and I got drunk with him a few times.
by Alex in Toulouse on Thu Mar 2nd, 2006 at 10:21:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I would lie to you if I say that I know who the man is. By his name I guess he is a Bosnian of Muslim origin...I hope you had a great time with him!

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Thu Mar 2nd, 2006 at 10:29:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh thank you very much for your help!
But to draw such a conclusion that I recommended "deportation" you'll need more then your imagination in work.
I of course never mentioned anything similar to deportation but I also can not see why people that were not happy in Serbian state would ask for Serbian land to be proclaimed their sovereign territory while they have their INDEPENDANT STATE.
See, few days ago here in Australia, second powerful man, our treasurer came on TV to tell all the immigrants:
"Love us - or leave us"...If immigrants are not ready to obey law of the country they live in, well today western democracies are merciless...Remember France and a veil...
So if you go to Wikipedia you'll find more about Kosovo demographic history and you'll see that MOST of the Albanians today living on Kosovo are actually IMMIGRANTS...from Albania...but even that does not matter! They live in SERBIA!
And I am ASKING AGAIN if you think I am not right then WHY DOUBLE STANDARDS? WHY Serbs in Bosnia and Croatia WERE NOT ALOWED to make their independent states there??????????


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Thu Mar 2nd, 2006 at 09:13:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Please do not mislead others by suggesting wikipedia because as we all know wikipedia is creating by common citizen and not all the information is reliable.  

And in wikipedia it says so itself, and you can check it at
Kosovo War

I have already suggested and I will again.  One of the most reliable explanations about Kosovo is "Kosovo a Short History" by Noel Malcolm, a man who has done a lot of research in the Balkans and was hired primarily to write a constructive history on this part of the region.

by qika PR (qikadreqit@yahoo.com) on Thu Mar 2nd, 2006 at 09:20:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Can you suggest a reliable source on Kosovo that we can be sure to be reliable? A Google search on that book shows that it is hardly accepted as gospel truth by both sides. Who hired the guy to write a "constuctive" (what does that mean?) history?

At least on Wikipedia you can get a flavour of the points of dispute about the article.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Mar 2nd, 2006 at 09:24:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A reliable Kosovar source is Kosovo Report.

As for Wikipedia, the contributors of the information on Kosovo are Serbians and for that reason I see the information as biased.  In wikipedia, it is individuals who write.  However, Kosovo Report is a well reliable organization.

by qika PR (qikadreqit@yahoo.com) on Thu Mar 2nd, 2006 at 09:33:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And you don't see that a Kosovar source might be seen as biased? Is that a web site or a book or what?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Mar 2nd, 2006 at 09:35:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It might be seen so, but Kosovo Report is a work by the  Independent International Commission on Kosovo.  Also, the Iintenational Crisis Group has very thourough and accurate reports on Kosovo.
by qika PR (qikadreqit@yahoo.com) on Thu Mar 2nd, 2006 at 09:43:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Really what is it "Kosovo Report"
I Googled and find some interesting reports among, like this one:
http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/kosovo1/2004/0714rights.htm
Quote:
The United Nations mission in Kosovo and local Albanian leaders have been extensively criticized in an annual report on human rights in the internationally administered province.

The report, a 96-page document, was released by the Ombudsperson Institution in Kosovo, a branch of the mission. The report says that the United Nations and the local authorities that have run Kosovo for the past five years have failed to achieve even a minimal level of protection of rights and freedoms, in particular for the province's Serbian minority.

The report, issued Monday, was published four months after thousands of ethnic Albanians took to the streets across the province to attack Serbian communities. The violence left 19 people dead and more than 800 injured. The head of the United Nations administration, Hari Holkeri, resigned his post last month, citing fatigue. His replacement, Soren Jessen-Petersen, a Danish diplomat, has yet to begin the job.

The annual report is the fourth to be published since the United Nations took responsibility for running the province in June 1999 and covers security and social rights issues. The United Nations mission was established after Yugoslav and Serbian security forces, accused of committing wide-scale atrocities, were forced out of the region by a two-and-a-half month NATO bombing campaign.
...
A large part of the report focuses on the inability of Serbs and other minorities to live, travel and work freely in the province. They have been confined to their homes, relying mostly on escorted transport for occasional visits to other places populated by minority ethnicities, the report's author, Marek Antoni Nowicki of Poland, said in a foreword to the document. He said that both United Nations and ethnic Albanian leaders were responsible, but he also noted that the international community's policy in the province was compounding the problem.

To be continued...

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein

by vbo on Thu Mar 2nd, 2006 at 09:54:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Again, I am the one who brought deportation into this thread, not you.

As to your question: "WHY Serbs in Bosnia and Croatia WERE NOT ALOWED to make their independent states ...

Well, the Bosnian Serbs tried to make it, but some of the people usurping the right to represent them pushed a bit too far and did a few things to anger a few people, so in the end they got less land than they wanted. As far as I know, they are still independent, with their own president, government, parliament, flag, anthem etc. I suppose you could argue, however, that they are still part of Bosnia, just like the Welsh and the Scots are still British (which is cool because it gives them the right to field different teams at the football european and world cups).

As for the Croatian Serbs, I guess there were too few of them ... but maybe if they had tried harder they could have had a chance, which would have been cool because it would have given them the chance to field different teams in the european rugby nations tournament.

by Alex in Toulouse on Thu Mar 2nd, 2006 at 09:49:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah you are trying to be humorous? Right?
Next time when you try to be humorous please put "humorous" prior to your statement so that I know when to laugh...Otherwise something this "smart" would make me cry...


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Thu Mar 2nd, 2006 at 10:06:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
For Albanians in Kosovo, an independent Kosovo is not secession per se, but it's a right to self-determination.  
by qika PR (qikadreqit@yahoo.com) on Thu Mar 2nd, 2006 at 08:51:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Don't tell!
That would be great but only if all the others on this Earth have "right to self determination"...
Legally it is secession! Full stop!
Why would be Albanians privileged comparing to all the bloody others straggling to separate in Europe ...or elsewhere...I need some answers finally...


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Thu Mar 2nd, 2006 at 09:19:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sorry I can't make my self to do it.I am geting sick by simply reading all the crap.
And I just found this on Wikipedia:
*
Some critics have accused the coalition of leading a war in Kosovo under the false pretense of genocide [6]. President Clinton of the United States, and his administration, were accused of inflating the number of Kosovar Albanians killed by Serbians[7]. Clinton's Secretary of Defense William Cohen, giving a speech, said, "The appalling accounts of mass killing in Kosovo and the pictures of refugees fleeing Serb oppression for their lives makes it clear that this is a fight for justice over genocide [8]." On CBS' Face the Nation Cohen claimed, "We've now seen about 100,000 military-aged men missing...They may have been murdered[9]." Clinton, citing the same figure, spoke of "at least 100,000 (Kosovar Albanians) missing[10]". Later, talking about Serbian elections, Clinton said, "they're going to have to come to grips with what Mr. Milošević ordered in Kosovo...They're going to have to decide whether they support his leadership or not; whether they think it's OK that all those tens of thousands of people were killed...[11]". Clinton also claimed, in the same press conference, that "NATO stopped deliberate, systematic efforts at ethnic cleansing and genocide[12]." Clinton even compared the events of Kosovo to the Holocaust. CNN reported, "Accusing Serbia of 'ethnic cleansing' in Kosovo similar to the genocide of Jews in World War II, an impassioned President Clinton sought Tuesday to rally public support for his decision to send U.S. forces into combat against Yugoslavia, a prospect that seemed increasingly likely with the breakdown of a diplomatic peace effort[13]." Clinton's State Department also claimed Serbian troops had committed genocide. The New York Times reported, "the Administration said evidence of 'genocide' by Serbian forces was growing to include 'abhorrent and criminal action' on a vast scale. The language was the State Department's strongest yet in denouncing Yugoslav President Slobodan Milošević[14]." The State Department also gave the highest estimate of dead Albanians. The New York Times reported, "On April 19, the State Department said that up to 500,000 Kosovar Albanians were missing and feared dead[15]."

However, the numbers given by Clinton and his administration have been proven false. The official NATO body count of the events in Kosovo was 2,788 (not all of them were war crimes victims)[16], with Slobodan Milošević charged with the "murders of about 600 individually identified ethnic Albanians[17]". Critics have noted that these numbers can not be considered genocide. The headline of The Wall Street Journal, which had launched an investigation into whether genocide had occurred in Kosovo, on December 31, 1999 was "War in Kosovo Was Cruel, Bitter, Savage; Genocide It Wasn't"[18]. The Wall Street Journal wrote, "the U.N.'s International War Criminal tribunal has checked the largest reported sites first, and found most to contain no more than five bodies, suggesting intimate acts of barbarity rather than mass murder... Kosovo would be easier to investigate if it had the huge killing fields some investigators were led to expect. Instead, the pattern is of scattered killings[19]."

In addition, a United Nations Court had previously ruled that Serbian troops did not commit genocide against Albanians. The court wrote "the exactions committed by Milošević's regime cannot be qualified as criminal acts of genocide, since their purpose was not the destruction of the Albanian ethnic group[20]". According to BBC, "the decision was based on the 1948 Geneva convention which defines genocide as the intent 'to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group as such'[21]". Milošević was not charged with genocide in Kosovo by the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (ICTY) but the more broader "crimes against humanity"[22]. Spanish forensic surgeon Emilio Pérez Pujol, who led the Spanish forensic team in Kosovo, gave an interview to the British paper The Sunday Times. The paper wrote, "In an outspoken interview, Pujol complained he had been sent to head a large investigation team attached to the ICTY, consisting of pathologists and police specialists, to work in the north of the country. But he found that what was publicised as a search for mass graves was 'a semantic pirouette by the war propaganda machines, because we did not find one--not one--mass grave.'[23]".
*
So much about yet another" genocide" that Serbs are guilty of.
When Americans invade a country on the other side of the world that has nothing to do with USA and kill (really) 200000 Iraqis and sink them to civil war, they are "spreading democracy" and everyone have to applaud. But when Serbs are fighting for their own land and their own people their battle is compared to Holocaust. Damn justice. I hope Clinton will find same justice on the Earth or even better in "afterlife"...
And yes if anyone find something, anything about Kosovo economy (industry, production or any other real work) please let me know!


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein

by vbo on Wed Mar 1st, 2006 at 09:43:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Vbo,

Why do you keep using articles with "disputed neutrality and factual accuracy"??? Please be serious about your references.

You have stated yourself that you do not like to use Wikipedia, then why use it again?

Kosovo War

by AmonRa on Wed Mar 1st, 2006 at 10:33:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No. You misunderstood.  I LIKE WIKIPEDIA - YOU KOSOVO ALBANIANS DON'T LIKE IT!
Who ever want to know more about "disputed" articles should go there and read it all and decide.
I don't see why Wikipedia is not good enough for you just because someone questioned and complained about all the articles that are in favor of Serbian case. I think we all know who that can be!


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Wed Mar 1st, 2006 at 11:02:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This is not any farse story. The money that has been invested in Kosovo during the last five years is definitely a significant amount. All the other countries in the region, and maybe across the globe,  that have gone through similar changes have developed huge international debts. So, this will be the case with Kosovo as well, so what? It is not the first case and will definitely not be the last one. Kosovo has never been an organized state because for centuries and not only decades it has been under different foreign regimes. After all, Macedonia was only created in the 90's right? You can probably argue that Macedonia had a different status within Yugoslavia. Yet, Macedonia did not establish its state because it had a greatly developed economy or well-organized state, but because it received A LOT of foreign aid. And some of it being paid by the people who died in Bllace during the conflict in Kosovo since Macedonia closed the borders not because it was afraid that it will be overcrowded but because it was looking for more money and saw an opportunity to exploit. After all, many refugees fled from Macedonia to foreign countries. However the fact that all nations within Yugoslavia were Slavic, except for Albanians contributes significantly to the fact that Kosovo was never a republic.
As far as the holy land is concerned, this has been the Serbian argument for years and they have been very persuasive till lately. Too bad, there are still some people who buy it. How can you argue that the land where now live 90% or more Albanians, that is internationally (historically) known as Dardanian, and Albanians are their ancestors (pasardhes) is Serbian holy land? And this is something that has happened not hundreds years ago but it has been Albanian land for thousands of years. The Serbs had the influence and the power and the media to export their ideas to people who weren't knowledgeable enough, so maybe you should consult a little history before u bring statements about Serbian holy land. I suggest you read "Kosovo a Short History" by Noel Malcolm, a man who has done a lot of research in the Balkans and was hired primarily to write a constructive history on this part of the region, he will tell you more accurately whose holy land it is.  

And as far the as the numbers you provide, well it depends very much where you get your information and wikipedia is certainly not a credible source.


Giving the first concrete figure on deaths in Kosovo, Ms del Ponte told the Council that only about a third of the 529 grave sites had so far been examined, where 4,266 bodies were reported to have been buried. The teams have so far exhumed 2,108 bodies.
Previous estimates suggested that the Serb forces may have left behind the remains of up to 10,000 ethnic Albanians when they withdrew from Kosovo five months ago.



It has been estimated that over 90 percent of the Kosovo Albanian population - over 1.45 million people - were displaced by the conflict by 9 June 1999.


by qika PR (qikadreqit@yahoo.com) on Wed Mar 1st, 2006 at 10:37:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Quote:
This is not any farse story. The money that has been invested in Kosovo during the last five years is definitely a significant amount.

Oh well let us know where that money was invested and what are the benefits for Kosovo citizens?
Quote:
As far as the holy land is concerned, this has been the Serbian argument for years and they have been very persuasive till lately. Too bad, there are still some people who buy it.
*

Yes. And people as poor as Kosovo Albanians were wealthy enough to buy all of Serbian land on Kosovo. With what money?
As far as I can remember the best profit comes from drug and people trafficking and Kosovo is one of the Europe top-places for this kind of business, And Kosovo Albanian politicians are not shy when it comes to using mafia money for political tasks.

Quote:
How can you argue that the land where now live 90% or more Albanians, that is internationally (historically) known as Dardanian, and Albanians are their ancestors (pasardhes) is Serbian holy land?

**
Is this because you said so? Where is your proof for that "internationally well known fact".
It's a Serbian holy land because Serbian churches and monasteries are (were) there before you managed to DESTROY them, as "civil" as you are...more here: http://www.rastko.org.yu/kosovo/crucified/default.htm#_catalog

OK Albanians on Kosovo definitely outnumbered Serbs. If that is to be reason for independence EVERYWHERE, I agree! Let's make totally new borders all around the world!

Quote:

OK I am going to sleep now. I just can't stand the way you are presenting your case. And poor European were never interested enough to know more about all of us on the Balkan and may really believe your spotlessness.


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein

by vbo on Wed Mar 1st, 2006 at 11:34:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Just a quick intro to World History 101... in 1913 the great power gathered and discussed the issue of Albania. On that year almost half of the Albanian territories were distributed among neighboring countries. More than the others Serbia was the one who "profited" more. It got Kosovo, Ulqin and other names of cities that have now been changes. Greece also took a big stake in Albanian territories, namely what was called Camria. It is historically documented--please do check--that Kosovo as part of the Albanian population was autochthonous territory, the population living there since the Illyrians.  
The reference to the age of Illyrians is below

The Illyrians were Indo-European tribesmen who appeared in the western part of the Balkan Peninsula about 1000 B.C., a period coinciding with the end of the Bronze Age and beginning of the Iron Age. They inhabited much of the area for at least the next millennium.

Is this enough for stating that the Albanians--be them Albanians or Kosovo Albanians so to speak-- are autochthonous or did the Kosovo Albanians have a different development in their history... !?!?!

by SdRaWkCaB on Wed Mar 1st, 2006 at 12:11:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
How about a little diferent picture:
and again Wikipedia...I love it.
Quote:
The origins of the Albanians are much less clear. Most believe that they are descended from the Illyrians, ancient inhabitants of the western Balkans in Roman times, although Romanian historians have suggested that they may alternatively be descended from the ancient Thracians, who inhabited the eastern and central Balkans. Albanian historians claim that in around the 6th century the Illyrians were forced south into what is now Albania by Slavic tribes - the predecessors of modern day Serbs.

This is not believed to be correct, as the claim is challenged by the fact that Byzantine chroniclers date the arrival of Albanians (Alvanoi) from southern Italy as much later, around 1043 in central Albania (Durrës), as mercenaries in the army of Maniakis. Linguists suggest that the vocabulary and structure of the Albanian language point to a presence in the Western Balkans.
*
On the other hand I don't see why this is relevant. Historic events leaded to a current world order. We can discus them until cows come home.

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein

by vbo on Wed Mar 1st, 2006 at 07:09:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If you read this:

UK Parliament on Kosovo Genocide Plans

I think there is no doubt that the West deliberately propagandized on the nature of the Serbian threat. It was overemphasized as a genocide attempt, whereas typically what Serbia did would be referred to as a brutal counterinsurgency crackdown. See definitions of such events in Kurdish Turkey, Central America, Cyprus, East Timor, Northern India, etc. Really, all over the world. I think the West put together this neat story for two main reasons.

  1. It felt Milosevic's actions in Bosnia merited punishment.

  2. The Rambouillet demands, which the Serbs initially agreed to, needed to be whitewashed. The farcical nature of those negotiations required that the Serbs be painted in the worst terms possible.

While I sympathize with #1, I do not feel you can morally instigate a battle elsewhere simply for the purposes of punishment, primarily because there are always consequences to war which will reverberate for many years. This is a lesson Madeleine Albright didn't learn ("What the heck is your military for if you're not going to use it." An ironic statement indeed given Iraq). We keep making the same mistakes. Bosnia. Kosovo. Iraq. In all three cases a deal was on the table that would have avoided bloodshed. In all three cases, the countries are much worse off for having gone to war.
by Upstate NY on Wed Mar 1st, 2006 at 11:41:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think this reference here was posted on another comment of yours about the genocide in Kosovo. Is this the only document that you make reference to.

But it makes me think may be ethnic cleansing never happened!!!!! may it was a necessary evil to make space for other people in that territory... i think its enough justifiable right?

by SdRaWkCaB on Wed Mar 1st, 2006 at 12:13:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Don't go overboard and generalize. I've been posting on here quite a while.

I think this document is important and utterly relevant here. vbo pointed out that there was a concerted effort to distort the nature of what was happening in Kosovo. Do you not see how this document is utterly connected to that statement by vbo? What could be MORE relevant?

by Upstate NY on Wed Mar 1st, 2006 at 12:58:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Quote:
But it makes me think may be ethnic cleansing never happened!!!!!
---------
Oh yes it happened. Albanians have cleaned Kosovo from Serbs. If it was the other way around there will be 90 % Serbs and 10 % Albanians on Kosovo. Wouldn't this be logical?

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Wed Mar 1st, 2006 at 06:42:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I am choosing to ignore your comment with a smirk on my face.

Cheers mate!

by AmonRa on Wed Mar 1st, 2006 at 07:43:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You are free to chose what ever you want! But the facts are talking for them selves.


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Wed Mar 1st, 2006 at 08:22:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Simply put, Kosovo is going to become indepedent, internationals and local actors are trying to integrate the Kosovar Serbs, and Serbs just have to accept that.  There is no point to talk anymore about numbers and stuff because it won't lead us anywhere.
by qika PR (qikadreqit@yahoo.com) on Thu Mar 2nd, 2006 at 06:17:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Simply put, you may be right! I just hope it's not to become independent with any of Serbian governments signing this act of occupation as voluntarily give away of Serbian land. Times will change, and they are changing fast nowadays...
Somehow world can not understand why when ever Balkan "erupt" in war it's so bloody...That's because we all have "past bills" unpaid in the past...but they are waiting and we on Balkan do not know how to "forgot and forgive" ...there is no such a thing there...it goes from generation to generation...
As I said before when "love" of the USA/ EU "evaporate" Kosovo Albanians are going to be very busy because simply they don't have a single friend in their neighborhood...
And it looks like all of you "defenders" for Kosovo Albanians are actually in Albania, looking at your info...Interesting stuff!

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Thu Mar 2nd, 2006 at 07:54:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's because we all have "past bills" unpaid in the past...but they are waiting and we on Balkan do not know how to "forgot and forgive" ...there is no such a thing there...it goes from generation to generation...

This indeed is the unfortunate fate that many of the peoples of the Balkans subject themselves to. And as long as they cannot forget, they will go nowhere very slowly.

Black South Africans forgave and reconciled. It's not a perfect situation, but it's working. Americans had own their civil war and within a generation no one seriously thought anything about it.

There comes a time when one has to make a choice.

by gradinski chai on Thu Mar 2nd, 2006 at 12:04:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I do fully acknowledge my (almost complete) ignorance here...but do know that there is a very long history of enmity between the Serbian and Kosovar people. I am glad that someone has taken the time to post on this topic (thank you very much), and encourage respectful debate on the issue of Kosovo, as clearly it is an emotional topic. Perhaps it is an issue of agreeing to disagree, and trying to find ways to talk that don't recreate past patterns.

And though I have tried (and will try again) to follow the details of this debate, I have not been able to focus too much on the details, due to my tendency to track the emotional tone of pieces that might be controversial and/or emotional.

It is important this is being talked about...and it looks on the surface of things like there are strong disagreements...can I suggest trying to find common ground, and identifying areas where there is agreement, as a start? I would hate for this to break down into another Serb vs Kosovar battle. Is that possible? (Just hoping we can do this a little differently, here  on ET...)

"Once in awhile we get shown the light, in the strangest of places, if we look at it right" - Hunter/Garcia

by whataboutbob on Wed Mar 1st, 2006 at 05:16:20 PM EST
Thank you very much for this post and that is what I inteded to do with this diary.  I purposely did not refer to any events from 1999 so that the discussion would not get emotional.  

However, it did and I can say that it was a bit disappointing because everytimg it goes back to trying to prove facts and not trying to figure out something for the future.  

Of course it doesn't mean that the discussion should stop.  But, I just wished it went differently.  

by qika PR (qikadreqit@yahoo.com) on Thu Mar 2nd, 2006 at 06:12:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thank you for writing this, and please don't stop trying to encourage discussion....its too important, and it isn't going away.

Perhaps we have to think of how to approach the discussion differently. For example, another way to approach this in a future diary would be to identify the key points of agreement in the current and ongoing discussions in Kosovo, then pose it as a "debate", asking the readership as a whole to problem-solve how they might approach this whole issue. It is a very important and interesting issue to consider.

Unfortunately, I have noticed that there are certain topics that get introduced here at ET, that really bring out strong nationalistic (and worse) kind of responses (note anytime a discussion of Turkey is posted...). Nonetheless, despite people's emotional responses to different topics, it shouldn't stop us from being educated about the issues nor stop us from trying to have discussions about what might be best.

In particular, now that I think of it, the whole idea of a country splitting apart from a larger country is a difficult topic to discuss. Somehow, I think that it would have been difficult to have an unemotional discussion between Great Britain and the American colonies in 1776, when they the colonies decided to become independent...and they weren't in the same region.

This is an informative piece. Please, keep writing on this...

"Once in awhile we get shown the light, in the strangest of places, if we look at it right" - Hunter/Garcia

by whataboutbob on Thu Mar 2nd, 2006 at 06:46:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Quote:
However, it did and I can say that it was a bit disappointing because everything it goes back to trying to prove facts and not trying to figure out something for the future.  
*
So now facts are not important??? While future should be rosy cause it shouldn't be based on the facts.

Quote:
But, I just wished it went differently.  
*
I bet...

I suppose this is that fruitful discussion of future that you recommend to go "differently"?

Quote:
Simply put, Kosovo is going to become independent, internationals and local actors are trying to integrate the Kosovo Serbs, and Serbs just have to accept that.  There is no point to talk anymore about numbers and stuff because it won't lead us anywhere.
*
And you call it discussion? Same like EU `negotiators" that in Austria first delivered "verdict"of independant Kosovo and now are calling Serbs to "negotiate"...WHAT to negotiate? What else one would say on this but "cut a crap"! You already occupied Kosovo...Enjoy it while you can!


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein

by vbo on Thu Mar 2nd, 2006 at 08:14:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Of course that facts are important, but facts about the present and not about something that happened years ago.  If we start arguing about who did what to whom, we will never pass that point and nothing will be achieved.

And yes, Kosovo will become independent.  What is left to negotiate is A LOT more and more important.  Albanians and Serbs are going to live together and at the negotiations they are talking about issues such as the decentralization process, for example.  So, it includes discussions about the competencies at the municipal level in areas, such as, health care, education, culture, social welfare, police and justice.

Later on, the discussions will continue on conceptual aspects of decentralization, such as, local finance, inter-municipal cooperation and links between Kosovo municipalities and municipalities in Serbia.

I think negotiations on such matters are more important than the issues that you are raising.

by qika PR (qikadreqit@yahoo.com) on Thu Mar 2nd, 2006 at 08:24:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And all this is suddenly so important for Albanians to hold negotiations for 7% of Kosovo population that are Serbs...according to your sources?
Do not bother! After independence is proclaimed there will be no Serbs on Kosovo anyway...or there will be so few...
If you expect to EVER live  "in peace " with Serbs after the independence...you don't know Serbs at all...and you should if you ever lived on Kosovo and in Serbia...which I doubt...

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Thu Mar 2nd, 2006 at 08:50:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I am sorry Bob if I am "pain in the ass" for you people that are moderators here on ET but this is just me "straight and forward" and yes "colorful" language sometimes... There is no other way about it. If you people at any point find that you don't want me to comment here, I'll be gone in no time.


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Thu Mar 2nd, 2006 at 08:20:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As far as I know, few people on ET are in favour of deportation.
by Alex in Toulouse on Thu Mar 2nd, 2006 at 08:23:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What kind of deportation you are talking about?

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Thu Mar 2nd, 2006 at 08:37:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hardly a pain in the ass, and we wouldn't like to see you leave.

I would like to ask everyone to try and refrain from personal attacks please.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Mar 2nd, 2006 at 08:43:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I am a bit confused by your quotes on your comment to me, vbo, since I never said anything like what you are quoting...nor ever came close to suggesting that you not be here. All I was suggesting is for you to try and cool down, and see where you might find common ground. Your intensity (which for me as a reader, comes across as hostility) about this subject is a bit stunning...perhaps there's more to this than I see, but I didn't see anyone personally attacking you. Are you from Kosovo?

"Once in awhile we get shown the light, in the strangest of places, if we look at it right" - Hunter/Garcia
by whataboutbob on Thu Mar 2nd, 2006 at 09:34:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]


Display:
Go to: [ European Tribune Homepage : Top of page : Top of comments ]