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Ban The Bulb!

by Sven Triloqvist Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 10:59:56 AM EST

I've been slowly changing my incandescent light bulbs for compact flourescents (dead cheap at Ikea).

These modern lamps give the same amount of light as an incandescent light bulb whilst using a lot less electricity. I didn't realise HOW much.

 According to a BBC report today, you save 7 quid a year in the UK per bulb.

If we all switched it would save a helluva lot

more below


I quote from the item...

"So why not just ban incandescent bulbs - why not make them illegal? They waste so much energy that if they were invented today, it is highly unlikely they would be allowed onto the market.

With lighting contributing 5-10% towards the typical electricity bill in the developed world, and even more in the developing world, the savings could really mount up.

If every household in the US replaced just three of its incandescent light bulbs with energy-saving designs and used them for five hours per day, it would reduce emissions of carbon dioxide by 23 million tonnes, reduce electricity demand by the equivalent of 11 coal-fired power stations and save $1.8bn"

Of course there is a little more to pay upfront, but that is soon saved

However, if prices had to include the full environmental costs of carbon emissions and pollution then that would be a good start.

"This could be done through a tax on bulbs according to their energy use. The tax level would vary between countries; in the UK, a rate of one penny per watt, or £1 ($1.77) per bulb, should suffice.

The resulting revenues could then be used to subsidise the price of energy-saving bulbs, and to promote greater energy efficiency generally.

Declaring plans to phase out, and eventually ban, traditional light bulbs by a deadline would help to ensure that profligate waste was not tolerated forever, and to kick-start an energy-efficiency revolution.

What about you? Have you switched yet?

Personally I find the flourescent light a little 'colder' and not so flattering with food, so I'll keep my 3 x 60 watt spots over my 'sushi counter' - but all my other lamps have been replaced over the last two years, as they have died out.
check out: banthebulb.org

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That would be an interesting fad to start: a saving energy fad! (and buy stock in those energy saving bulbs)

"Once in awhile we get shown the light, in the strangest of places, if we look at it right" - Hunter/Garcia
by whataboutbob on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 12:19:33 PM EST
More than a fad maybe? Perhaps a responsibility?

During my last marriage we lived in a very large house in the country. My ex - who was vehemently anti-nuclear energy - liked to leave ALL the lights on. I could never get her to understand that the two things were connected ;-)

Many Finns have been against more nuclear power stations in resource-poor Finland - but are still happy to accept 25% of Finnish electricity consumption being supplied from over the border by nuclear plants in Russia that you wouldn't want to have a picnic anywhere near.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 12:44:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Finns seem to be the most favorable to more nuclear energy in Europe - and indeed they are showing the way in building the new, 3rd generation EPR.

From the Eurobarometer (pdf)

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 05:03:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
exactly

 VTT and Nuclear energy

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 05:40:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Should I put up another of my weekend 'get it off your chests'?

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 12:47:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Personally I find the flourescent light a little 'colder' and not so flattering with food, so I'll keep my 3 x 60 watt spots over my 'sushi counter' - but all my other lamps have been replaced over the last two years, as they have died out.
That's because the energy "wasted" by the incandescent bulbs is radiated as heat in the near-infrared.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 12:25:46 PM EST
I think it is also colour temperature (Kelvin). Warm colours enhance the look of food. Tungsten is 3200 Kelvin, Daylight is around 6000 K. Flourescents (tubes - especially cheap factory lighting) often have a green peak. At some extra cost you can get daylight balanced tubes.

I am not sure what these IKEA lamps are in colour temperature, as I don't have a box with the specs - but I will try to look it up.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 12:37:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Fluorescent light is non-thermal, so the notion of colour temperature is not directly applicable to them.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 06:31:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Visible light is a section of the radiation spectrum - specifically photon radiation.

Our eyes (retinas) and the CCD chips in digital cameras and the photosensitive emulsion in old celluloid supported film are Photon Detectors

So, while Kelvin degrees are a thermal reference, nevertheless flourescents produce a spectrum of photon radiation at various wavelengths. The exact combination of these determines how the brain interprets the radiation in terms of colour. As you well know, within certain limits, the brain is capable of 'adjusting' perceived colour environments detected by the optical part of the brain into 'standard' colour. That is why we can sit inside at night and still see the same blue vase that we saw during the day. We self-adjust colour temperature (in film terms)

Confronted by severely restricted spectrums such as sodium or mercury discharge street lighting, the brain is no longer capable of compensating. The blue vase becomes black under sodium lighting.

Anyone who works with colour - artists, designers etc, is trained to detect the perceived shifts in colour caused by the illumination source.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Sat Feb 4th, 2006 at 02:30:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This reminds me of a story, Sven (for some reason I feel you won't mind)... anyway, Long Beach California has, or had, terrible city planners or council.  They were always trying to be cutting edge, tearing down the downtown for a mall, tearing out the streetcar tracks for buses, tearing down the mall for another downtown, hauling in the Queen Mary and Spruce Goose,  tearing out the streets that had replaced the streetcar tracks for lightrail, paying for the Spruce Goose to leave... there was no end of bad ideas and dismal failures.

But one of the worst had to be the streetlight decision.  That actually had been one of the quite pretty things about the town -- it had old fashioned lamp posts and pretty champaigne-pink lights.  Anyway, it was announced that they were spending X amount of big bucks to put in all new streetlamps with some sort of sodium lighting.  It was orange.  Now, everyone with any common sense suspected this would be a terrible idea.  Everyone protested, wrote letters, etc.  When the regular people and the Chamber of Commerce agree, well it's usually a sign of some sort.

But they went ahead -- it'll save oodles of energy and money they said.  So in the orange lights went.  The first thing that happened is that people got scared to go out at night.  You couldn't see very well and what you could see looked pretty disgusting.  Small businesses started failing, people stayed away even more, no one was  riding the buses, and crime rose.  Also, something no one foresaw -- the crime solving rate dropped.  No one could give an accurate description -- what color was the car?  what color were their clothes?  No one could tell.

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes

by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Feb 4th, 2006 at 02:53:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I really find these kind of facts fascinating. I'm always arguing with engineers (and Finland is full of them) that they fail to understand the wider context in which their innovations will function.

I've always been a great promoter of Operational Research - the concept of using multidisciplinary teams to solve problems. The idea being that the mutual understanding (and conflict) of different systems can lead to better solutions.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Sat Feb 4th, 2006 at 03:04:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As an amateur astronomer I can relate to that! Here's a map of european light polution
by Samir on Sat Feb 4th, 2006 at 02:41:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Izzy, if you could point me to any articles on this Long Beach cock up. It would be a very useful illustration for seminars. Thanks of you can!

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Sat Feb 4th, 2006 at 03:06:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
First piece of advice -- do not do a search on "long beach cock up."

But I did some other searches and can't find it -- it happened pre-internet.  I went to the local paper's website, which used to let you search the archives (for a fee), but I don't see that option anymore (they've been sold).  I do, however, have connections at the paper still (hell, I might even have the articles in my garage).

If you really are interested, email me and I'll get you the information (although not tonight, of course).

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes

by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Feb 4th, 2006 at 03:22:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Here's a mention, but no real details.

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes
by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Feb 4th, 2006 at 03:38:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No - you don't have to go to that trouble. But thanks a lot...

I can use the story - as it is - as an illustration of the common failure to understand the ramifications of tinkering change.

But I guess this must have taken place early 90's??? If I have a place (Long Beach) and a time period, it is enough veracity for a viable anecdote ;-)

I see what you mean about googling 'long beach cock up'. Pornographers are certainly among the most advanced users of IT. ;-)


You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Sat Feb 4th, 2006 at 03:40:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It was early seventies -- that's established in the link I put up.  But honestly, if you want more details, it's no trouble.  My step-dad would love it.  He was a journalist then and wrote quite a bit about it.  He can regale me for hours about the details!

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes
by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Feb 4th, 2006 at 03:45:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, I would be happy to hear more if your step-dad has any juicy additions...

Have some pancakes...

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Sat Feb 4th, 2006 at 03:40:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You had to go and mention pancakes!  And us with no wife in the house!!  I mean, technically, there's me, but that hardly counts.

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes
by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Feb 4th, 2006 at 03:53:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh come now! I thought you Americans must have machines where you pour in a ready mixed batter purchased by the pint and the damn thing spits out pancakes at a rate of knots ;-)

As for The Perfect Wife, here is rude (and ancient) joke on the subject:

Man waiting on railway platform sees automat called the Perfect Wife. Notes receptacle in center of automat, about 80 cms of ground. Watches as other man goes up to automat, gets very close in front of it, inserts money, and jiggles about in front of it for a couple of minutes. And goes away looking happy.

First man thinks hmmm the Perfect Wife - I fancy a bit of that. Goes over, stands in front, inserts his wanger and coins in the slot and immediately feels a stabbing terrible pain. He pulls it out to find a button sewn on the end.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Sat Feb 4th, 2006 at 04:24:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Why would one bother pouring batter into a machine to get pancakes, when they're already more easily available frozen???

http://www.pillsbury.com/View/breakfast/pancakes.asp

by asdf on Sat Feb 4th, 2006 at 08:54:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
2 things...

Convenience foods. Convenient for whom?

Labour saving devices. Saving labour for what?

he he he

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 03:18:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Also, I just searched for images and the lights seem to have been taken out and replace, at least in the downtown area, with -- guess what?  Old-fashioned looking street lamps.

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes
by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Feb 4th, 2006 at 03:26:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What a great punchline of your excellent story.
by Nomad (Bjinse) on Sat Feb 4th, 2006 at 08:47:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I lived in Long Beach for many years and that goddamn mall destroyed the old downtown including the best hardware store in the entire frickin' universe.  City Hall (well placed and fortified to defend the city from a sea-ward invasion) was a disaster from the same gang of goons.  The corruption was so bad the city was paying $89 for plastic garbage cans you could buy at K-Mart for $3.  

The older parts of the city, along the ocean, had some of the neatest buildings and residences anywhere in SoCal.  You used to, before they fucked it up with a goddamn marina, be able to go to one of the best city beaches in the LA Basin or go for a cooling walk in a park with a small (30 foot high) bluff overlooking the beach.  

If anyone is studying Urban Planning you need to learn everything you can about Long Beach and then do the exact opposite!  


She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Feb 4th, 2006 at 06:15:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thank you and agreed on all counts!  Those old buildings were unique in the LA area and were used for making a lot of films.  That mall idea was pure insanity (or corruption)!

When were you there?  Did they have the orange lighting still?  IIRC, the mall went up sometime around 79 or 80.  Also, remember when they closed and then tore down the Pike?  Now I think they're putting it back up.  You might like this site.

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes

by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Feb 4th, 2006 at 06:42:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I lived there from 1973 to 1985.  The end of the old LB and the beginning of the New & Improved (snark) LB.  I went back a couple of times to vist friends in the early 90's but not since.  And, since I lived there for that many years, I never went to the Pike.  :-0

When they replaced the street lamps we used to call the downtown the 'Meeting Place of the Living Dead' as anyone walking around looked like a ghoul or a vampire; if you held your head just right you could get yellowish eyes with black irises.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Feb 4th, 2006 at 07:35:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I put up a photo for you in the open thread.  You might like this link of historic buildings.  Thanks for strolling down memory lane with me!

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes
by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Feb 4th, 2006 at 07:38:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
just isn't there.  

Flourescents drive me nuts unless I balance them with some incandescents.

But the wattages on flourescents is very low, which is the most obvious measure of the savings.  

Hey!  A story for you:  

One of our local middle schools was designed with no windows and sodium vapor lighting.  Spooky--that narrow-band yellow color!    Well, it was supposed to be efficient.  Actually it made everybody a little crazy.  The symptoms varied, but reports of constant headaches--by teachers and students--and a decline in performance, they could not ignore.  Eventually they just had to tear the thing down.  

I would like to know what was going through the architect's brain when he designed that.  

Oh yes.  You can use an ordinary CD as a diffraction grating.  Look at the reflection of a candle, and you will see a nice rainbow.  Add salt to the candle and get a bright yellow line laid over it.  Mercury-vapor lamps give a string of blobs--blue and green mostly.  

The Fates are kind.

by Gaianne on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 04:04:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In Barcelona, the family is in the process.

Switching switching!!!

A pleasure


I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 01:17:15 PM EST
Here in the US many local electric companies will give rebates for the purchase of compact fluorescents (about $2-3 per bulb). There are several applications where they don't do well.
For spot lights (like track lighting and ceiling "cans"), outdoors and where instant on is needed.

As for color fidelity there are many varieties made including those with good red output. A little investigation will reveal sources for more high quality bulbs. One of the areas that is ignored is the cost of making the bulbs and the added materials for the internal electronics.
When an incandescent bulb is finished all that is discarded is some glass and metal.

To be a real net savings the compacts should have replaceable bulbs and one should not be required to discard the base as well. (There are a few like this but in specially built fixtures).

Another big savings being put into practice is the replacement of traffic signals with LED lights. They are more efficient and, more importantly, last much longer. In regular traffic use bulbs are replaced by schedule instead of waiting for them to burn out which is a waste of materials and labor.

If you really want to start saving energy examine the number of things that are always on in your home. Every wall adaptor consumes between 1-5 watts even when the appliance is "off". The same is true of clocks, TV's, VCR's, computers and the like. Anything was a remote control or "soft" on/off switch. It is estimated that 1% of all electricity used in the US is just to keep these items in a "ready" state so one doesn't have to walk over and press the on button.

You will hear more discussion about LED light bulbs in the near future, but they are not as efficient as fluorescents and require the use of exotic rare earth elements to make. I think the bulb issue is resolving itself as the cost continues to drop and the size and variety grows.


Policies not Politics
---- Daily Landscape

by rdf (robert.feinman@gmail.com) on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 01:35:16 PM EST
Excellent info! That is what ET is for - experts everywhere.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 03:02:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Curly flourescents are in every socket that has an on-off switch.  When they invent a way to dim them they will be in every one.

The cheapies from ikea, etc, are now light-weight enough to use in sprung arm task lights.  They have the added bonus of being cool if you need the light near your face when you work.

by dmun on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 02:35:09 PM EST
Dimmer-compatible bulbs have already been invented:

http://www.gelighting.com/na/home_lighting/ask_us/faq_compact.htm

by asdf on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 11:44:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks asdf! That has been a stumbling block for me, because I put dimmers on most every light in my house. I'm off to Home Depot!  ;-)
by US Blues on Sat Feb 4th, 2006 at 10:35:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thank you, Sven -- this is an excellent diary and, although we use those new bulbs, I didn't know about the impact.  I feel better now about their cold, greenish glow. ;-)

I'm sorry I avoided this diary all day -- I thought you were going to tell me something terrible about tulips and I was wresting with my desire to stay in blissful ignorance.

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes

by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 08:39:36 PM EST
Izzy - your brain obviously extrapolated the bulb reference from my recent trip to Holland. So if I write about windmills next..... ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Sat Feb 4th, 2006 at 02:34:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ahh.  Thanks for figuring that out -- my brain is a mystery to me.

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes
by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Feb 4th, 2006 at 02:37:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I have used compact flourescents in most of my overhead sockets for several years, with the one exception of a light operated by a dimmer. I also use a Philips round bulb type one in an uplighter. You can also get far more efficient incandescent lamps that use a tungsten/halide interaction rather than just a simple glowing tungsten element in an inert gas atmosphere. There are most frequently seen in the small strip versions in things like floodlights for security applications but they are available with ES and BC fittings in a small format so you can use them in dimmer applications. The problems with them are that they require careful installation so your hand grease dows not get on them and produce a weak spot in the "glass" and the high temperatures they reach to initiate the tungsten/halogen cycle.

A couple of small snippets of information.

Lamps hat only use sodium have a very narrow yellow spectrum. This makes them ideal for photographic darkrooms using only monochrome paper as this is conventioanlly not sensitive to yellow light. They are however never used on their own as that particular colour is phycho-active, producing depressions and even violent behaviour. Kodak produced a darkroom illumination fitting in the late 1960 that enclosed the lamp in a colour filter that let through all of the yellow from the sodium but also some other colour light from an ordinary "bulb" that was in the same fitting. Modern street lights are usually of a "pressurised sodium" type that have a wider spectrum than sodium only.

To get back to the compact flouresents, if every home in the UK replaced two ordinary bulbs with CFs, the power saved is enough to run all the street lighting in the whole country.

Modern video equipment left on standby can be some of the worst offenders. The best solution is to install switched sockets so the TV can be isolated. This avoids possible dangers from mechanical damage to the plug, socket or wiring when you pull it out. Some video recorders and set top boxes for satellite, cable or digital TV are very high users on standby. Some VCRs use almost the same power on standby as they do in operation. Obviously some of these are awkward to disconnect when not in use as you need to leave them on standby to record but careful selection can help. As an example, a hard disc based personal video recorder (PVR) that you get for easy recording of satellite or digital TV saves a second unit on standby as the decoders are built in. The hard disc motors also need less power than cranking a tape through a VCR.

Another snippet, the amount of power that will be needed for digital set-top boxes when the UK drops analogue TV is estimated as the equivalent to a nuclear power station.

by Londonbear on Sat Feb 4th, 2006 at 11:26:34 AM EST
One other point that you should consider. CFs have much longer working lives than ordinary ones. Most give a cash return on this alone, even discounting the power savings.

The other thing this means is that they have to be changed far less often. If you have elderly relatives (or any with movement problems) they can be a safety boon. A lot less climbing or chairs to change the buld or trying to stretch to chnage the awkward one in the cupboard. One in a table or sidelight in a sitting room also means they are not worried about leaving it on so they can see while waiting for help changing overhead ones. (Leaving it illuminated means they do not have to stumble in the dark to turn it on)

by Londonbear on Sat Feb 4th, 2006 at 11:44:11 AM EST
I am in the process of changing to as many flourescents as possible.  They are not "dead cheap" in Ohio.  Wish we had an Ikea.  

They really are great for hard to reach places.  That is where I started using them-garage, basement.

I have had a couple which did not last as long as they are supposed to but longer than ordinary bulbs.  

by tobysmom (tobysmom) on Sat Feb 4th, 2006 at 03:40:38 PM EST
But, as someone commented earlier, even their longer life pays for the initial extra cost - in the long run.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Sat Feb 4th, 2006 at 03:57:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
an Energy savings calculator from Osram in Finland. sorry it is in Finnish - I am sure they do the same in other languages wherever they distribute.

Try it! You might be surprised...
Select the wattage of the lamp.
Select the number of lamps you are going to replace
Select the environment Koti = home (the other two choices are for offices)
Select your electricity cost (this is fixed at 0,09 cents per kWt)

HIT 'laske' (calculate)

The six numbers that come up are, left to right, top to bottom

  • The cost in Euros of your existing lamps
  • Annual savings if you switch
  • The cost as in 1. after switching
  • Saving over 10 years
  • Price of the lamp
  • Number of months to pay back cost of lamp (they come with a 10 year guarantee)


You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Sat Feb 4th, 2006 at 04:12:32 PM EST


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