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Towards a Pan-European Society

by Londonbear Thu Feb 9th, 2006 at 09:42:18 AM EST

Not really since the Roman Empire have we had a culture that unified (most of) modern Europe. Now none of us want to see a homogenised society yet we must move towards a shared European identity within the EU if we are to deepen let alone widen the Union. What I'd like to do is explore how move towards that and at the same time cherish our own traditions but share those of others.

This is prompted by the current discussions over the tension between Islamic sensitivities over the cartoons and freedom of speech but I want to widen it away from that narrow base. In many ways a seminal moment for me was in Prague during the Accession. People whose country for my parents was "a far away land of which we know little" were those whose dashed Spring hopes I mourned and who were now becoming my fellow citizens.  

How then do we relate to those who are different from us but share a common citizenship and personal aspirations of at least a decently comfortable life with what Roosevelt dubbed the four freedoms.
   

From the front page - whataboutbob


Maybe I can kick off by reproducing a slightly edited comment I made in Daily Kos in the context of the Mohammed cartoons which sets out what I see as different approaches to national identies that we might use as ways forward. As you will realise it way intially address to a mainly American audience.


There are two very different models of a multi-racial/multi-cultural society emerging. One is the US/French model of what might be called a "melting pot" where there is assumed to be a unifying and unified ideal of nationality into which differences are subsumed. Here a degree of uniformity is imposed so for example you on the one hand demand separation of Church and state in an fundamentalist form of Rationalism which has about as much to do with the Enlightenment as the Southern Baptists have to do with the teachings of Christ. This ideal of uniformity leads to other dangers like the assumption that your ideals and aspirations should be everybody's and series of Presidents who end their speeches "and may God bless America".

The other is a very much an urban British model (although I suggest it is also part of the ways in which the EU can to cope with the traditions of the 25 members) that attempts to share and celebrate differences. Thus a state primary school in the East End of London will get the children to make "Easter Bonnets" to re-enact the parades traditional in that area and have a party at the end of Ramadan if it falls in term time (during the semester)If there are children of other faiths, the older ones might be asked to give a presentation about a particular religious holiday like Hannukah or the Festival of Lights during the morning assembly. That by the way is mandated by law as having to be a "predominantly Christian" meeting unless special dispensation has been obtained or the school is run by another faith. I don't believe any school in the country has applied for this but the law is extremely widely ignored in most inner-city state schools. In school meals, halal meat is used if there will be  a sufficient demand and a contractor can supply it but a vegetarian option is available to accommodate dietary requirements. The ideal is not uniformity but (to use a word much devalued by  Blair using it) to respect others for their difference. If that means making a head covering and a long skirt or slacks an option for the school uniform, so what? If you let the girls play team games in track suits, who are you harming?  

I suppose its a matter of a couple of republics    which had to be invented by committee with powerful presidents and a monarchy that tried republicanism over 300 years ago and gave it up as encouraging religious fanatics. Now we have a virtually powerless head of state who retains a Catholic title of Defender of The Faith while being the head of an established Protestant church which is ignored by the vast majority of its nominal members except when it involves "hatch, match or dispatch" as it does rites of passage rather well or attend so they can get their children into the schools it runs as they have an unjustified reputation that the teaching is better than state schools. Well I did say we were not worried about being Rational!

Perhaps what I am saying is that we should revisit the religious tolerance of ancient Rome but remember that the muslim Ottoman Empire was the direct successor of the Eastern Roman Empire. What we share is far more powerful than that which divides us. But instead of trying to wipe out differences between us let's recognise that our neighbour's unique qualities enrich us too. Most of all, let's abandon the agressive eagles of Rome, the Czars, the Kaisers and the American Republic. At least if we cannot fully embrace the dove, let's make the eagle like the friendly "fat hen" of the Bonn Bundestag. Important, let's relax, throw away preconceptions and get to know each other. We'll find after all that we're not that bad.    

Display:
I'm not seeing much traffic on this interesting topic. Perhaps a metric worth consideration is the longevity of the system under consideration.

The Roman model worked for centuries, but I don't know enough history to explain it very well. The Chinese model also probably demonstrates good longevity. The American model has worked for about 250 years, which is pretty good. On the other hand, the British urban model appears to be a disaster in the making. And the French model seems pretty wobbly also...

Based on this small sample, the "everybody agrees or else off with their heads" approach seems to have a better record than the "we'll all be friendly" approach...

by asdf on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 08:51:56 PM EST
The main problem in the UK and France is economic deprivation. Without that none of the other stuff flies.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Feb 6th, 2006 at 03:14:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Selective bigotry sensitivity here we go again...

  • I don't see how the French model is wobbly. I'll say it again, the exact same thing said about Arabs today was said about Italian and Poles 2 or 3 generations ago: they won't integrate, they are bringing their religion with them and don't want to give it up for the Republic, they are fomenting trouble, etc... They will be integrated. They are being integrated;

  • I also don't see why the US and French models are put together in Londonbear's post. One celebrates communautarism, one absolutely refuses it. Both are democracies where you are free to practise your religion as you care to, but in one you show it publicly, and in the other you never show it. And calling French secularism a form of extremism (or an extremist version of rationality) just means that you don't understand anything about it.


In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Feb 6th, 2006 at 03:02:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'll add to that I am not sure what kind of distinctive disaster the British model is supposed to be heading towards (beyond the obvious energy one that you, Jerome, are always writing about...)
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Mon Feb 6th, 2006 at 05:18:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yeah, well, maybe I over-hyperbolized, which I'm quick to criticize others about.

Anyway, it seems like there might be three models, actually. Leaving off assignments to specific countries, they are perhaps the following:

  • Allow immigration, but don't encourage (or allow) integration.
  • Encourage immigration, and expect virtually full integration and indoctrination after one generation.
  • Invade your neighbor, and force him to obey your rules.

I was just pointing out that Rome and China used the latter model for a lot longer than any of our recent western methods.
by asdf on Mon Feb 6th, 2006 at 10:42:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Two notes on historical hindsight.

There is no stable 'Chinese model'. What is unique about China is not existing for 3000 years, instead, to re-assemble every time it falls apart. China fell apart about a dozen times over those 3000 years, and had numerous 'lesser' crises even in-between. 'Lesser' in scare quotes because some of these were nothing short of a catastrophic collapse - with population decreases by two-thirds for example.

The Roman Empire in turn was on the verge of collapse several times, only those events seem less significant to a history book reader than a contemporary. There were times two centuries before the official end of the Roman Empire when there were multiple break-off provinces, rival rulers, conflict with another great empire, and multiple massive barbarian invasions at the same time - but latter-day readers know that Rome consolidated again, and can't be that 'scared'.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Feb 7th, 2006 at 05:36:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't recognize these first two models in the real world.  Leaving out the "invade your neighbor" scenario, I see two other approaches:

  • Allow immigration, and encourage economic and social integration while respecting the immigrant's right to celebrate his/her original culture.  
  • Allow immigration, don't encourage economic or social integration, but expect the immigrant to adopt your belief system and culture anyway.    
by liz (lizbryant_at_yahoo_dot_com) on Tue Feb 7th, 2006 at 11:27:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
asdf's first model described the approach of the Kohl government in then West Germany rather well. Not giving citizenship even to the children of immigrants and such. It was in part built on the mythology that immigrants are guest workers who'll one day return home.

His second model may partially describe France (but the other part is your second model).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Feb 7th, 2006 at 03:38:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Having lived in the US, UK and France I can only say I much prefer the allow differences approach rather than others. This approach seems to involve less areas of obvious conflict most of the time over cultural practices and traditions. To try to force a set of so called unifying values on a minority means trying to force the majority values on the minority.
Trying to understand each other is a lot better way forward than trying to force the other to be like us.    
by observer393 on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 10:38:32 PM EST
This is too complicated for me at the moment. I'll just say that attempting to think about this requires careful attention to the various myths that it's all wrapped up in. I've been trying to work myself up to a post about the fundamental problem with the EU: it has no creation myth. Ireland has some sort of myth wound up with 1916 and rebels and so on (not 1921, which was the actual independence war because that led straight into the civil war and we don't like to think about that ...); the US has the American dream and the War of Independence and the Wild West; France has the revolutions and so on; England has the crown and a thousand years without invasion. What has the EU? We also need to worry about the myths about the various cultures both historical and contemporary.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Feb 6th, 2006 at 03:32:04 AM EST

Fashionable talk of a "European culture" is pointless and may even be damaging

Ideals animate every endeavour worth its salt. Robert Musil, an Austrian novelist at the turn of the 20th century, wrote that each of us has a second country in which everything we do is innocent. For Americans, that second country is an idealised America, where every child can become president and through which runs the yellow brick road. In European nations, Europe is that second country. When Franco's dictatorship fell, Spaniards shouted in the streets that "we are Europeans now." To peoples little affected by the appeals of God or country, the EU has become (to borrow a favourite phrase of Senator John McCain), "a cause greater than themselves".

But European leaders now want to go beyond idealism to assert particular qualities of Europeanness and make specific arguments about the EU.

(...)

It is true that, compared with Americans, Europeans spend much time thinking of, talking about and subsidising their high culture. But this does not mean they are inspired by it. Like the rest of the world, Europeans' cultural references are at least as populist and American--"Desperate Housewives", "Temptation Island"--as they are high-minded and European. Proxy measures of creativity, such as patent awards, the quality of universities, the numbers of films and videos, are all strongly in America's favour. It seems extremely unlikely that cultural vitality will somehow renew European ideals about the EU. For too many, it is America that is creative and exciting, not Europe.

Even if Europe were more stirring than it is, this would still not impinge on the EU one way or the other.

(...)

At best, talking about culture is a distraction from the harder task of economic reform. It could also become an insidious way of stopping Turkey from joining the EU (Turkey might meet the formal conditions of entry but not count as culturally European).

(...)

Worst of all, talk of Europe's cultural distinctiveness can be a way of attacking globalisation.

But Europe has its myth. Maybe it does not talk to you in Ireland, but it does work here on the continent: Europe is the reconciliation of France and Germany (and the relief of those squeezed in the middle). The problem of Europe is that it has brought in members that have not accepted this idea of reconciliation, and see intra-European stuff as a continuation of old fights in a new way.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Feb 6th, 2006 at 03:09:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Worst of all, talk of Europe's cultural distinctiveness can be a way of attacking globalisation.

Since attacking globalisation would be... a bad thing? Say hello, flat earth.

This doesn't help in stimulating me to pick an issue of The Economist...

by Nomad (Bjinse) on Mon Feb 6th, 2006 at 04:55:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Also, I'd take issue with the Economist's analysis of culture.

Sure, the US dominates TV and movie output, but that is in part an artifact of language and economic circumstance. However, in the end, US programs are a certain kind of escapism. They represent fundamentally different things abroad than they do in the US.

(There is a diary hiding in this concept, but perhaps kcurie or someone is better qualified to write it than I?)

I really think the Economist is in danger of losing it's identity as an international magazine. It begins to sound more like a US magazine every day.

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Mon Feb 6th, 2006 at 05:15:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Exactly. Their whole "don't talk about culture now that you watch Bruce Willis movies and eat at McDonalds" shtick is getting tiresome.

Action movies are not "culture", they are "entertainment".
McDonalds is not culture, it's energy supply management (the unsustainable kind, of course).

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Feb 6th, 2006 at 05:38:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
McDonalds is not culture, it's energy supply management (the unsustainable kind, of course).

About the only time I eat at a McDonald's is while travelling - desperate need for food, any food and little choice or desperate need for a bathroom and figuring I might as well eat something while I'm at it. As a result, most of my McDo spending comes in Europe and I believe I have never eaten at one in NYC (pizza and falafel shops serve the first requirement, Starbucks and other cafes the second one).

by MarekNYC on Mon Feb 6th, 2006 at 05:46:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
...but last week I finally managed to watch "Supersize Me", quite an entertaining watch. If you every had any doubts about what visits to MacDonalds do to you, they are all confirmed. After it, I swore an expensive oath on the blood of my forebears to never set foot again in a Mac - to be exempted only for extreme life-and-death necessities.

Not that I'm a junkfood-junkie anyway. After a youth of seeing a visit to MacDonalds or equivalent as something rare and special (probably the best way to start off), I've been phasing out, maximally visiting once a year, just to re-discover that teenage experience when the Mac was a shiny, exciting something. But when that shine wears off and you start tasting the food... MacDonalds can be a phase. I think Europeans have an advantage in this: they've a history with demanding high quality food.

by Nomad (Bjinse) on Mon Feb 6th, 2006 at 07:30:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yeah, similar experience here. Check my earlier comment in an older thread.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Feb 7th, 2006 at 04:16:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The awareness of responding to eating Mac-food (sweaty, bloated feeling) was the crucial thing. I endured the same reactions you described and that already placed me on the edge to stay out of the Mac. Supersize Me just tipped me over. And yes, good to know I'm not the only one.
by Nomad (Bjinse) on Tue Feb 7th, 2006 at 08:09:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Beware! If you ever come to Lyon, you will be searched, and if any fast-food receipt is found, you will be sent back!


"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet
by Melanchthon on Sat Feb 11th, 2006 at 12:03:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But Europe has its myth. Maybe it does not talk to you in Ireland, but it does work here on the continent: Europe is the reconciliation of France and Germany (and the relief of those squeezed in the middle). The problem of Europe is that it has brought in members that have not accepted this idea of reconciliation, and see intra-European stuff as a continuation of old fights in a new way.
I'm aware of the myth, but it is never mentioned in either the Irish or the British media. It's not really a part of the story. And I don't think it's part of the story in Europe either, though I could be wrong.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Feb 7th, 2006 at 02:26:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, one of the key points is that this myth only powerfully works for France, Germany and perhaps the Benelux area. Maybe Italy at a stretch. For them there is direct or close geographical relevance.

Not to mention that as generations go on, the war loses some of it's old mythical symbolic meaning. It will mean something different to kids born today, so it is perhaps an imperfect myth going forward.

For others, be it the UK, Ireland or Spain or Portugal it's logical to see there needs to be something more inclusive, more involving, I think.

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Tue Feb 7th, 2006 at 03:11:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The first and most radical vision of a unified Europe was dreamt up by Churchill in one of his speeches just after WWII (before he became the prophet of the Cold War). I think if pro-European Brits would dig it up and use it often (this is one of the many things Bliar with all his rhetorical talent failed to do), it could have been made relevant again.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Feb 7th, 2006 at 04:06:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hmm, I haven't read it in a while. But I vaguely remember thinking similar things.

But would you agree that thea "myth" that is German-French reconciliation is probably less compelling outside France and Germany?

And "avoiding the wars of the past" is probably less compelling for younger generations?

(My grandparents lived through WW2, but my youngest niece never knew them, so how can it have the same resonance for her?)

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Tue Feb 7th, 2006 at 04:50:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
To be clear, "less compelling for younger ones" doesn't mean it cannot be used and shaped and pounded into their brains they way other myths are. But up to now, in a lot of ways we've relied on the message being self-selling. I think that is changing...

As to whether or not the myth should be "self-selling" ideally it would be, but it's hard to think of one that really is, anywhere...

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Tue Feb 7th, 2006 at 05:00:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Good points. Indeed I use "myth" as inspirational story, not necessarily something personally connecting or even real, but for a myth to work on those without close personal experience, it has to be made internalised.

I won't hazard to make a general point about my generation, but at least will mention one counter-trend: my generation has a renewed attention for just those personal stories of their WWII-surviving grandparents that our parents didn't have. The stories told can be manifold, but the not-heard-before horrors survived by a close relative could be the part making the most impression. (At least it is for me.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Feb 7th, 2006 at 05:25:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, I think we are similar ages, my point was about our nieces/nephews/children as it were. The grandparents who were in the war are getting scarcer, soon they will be gone.

When I was young, some 50% of movies made in the 20 years preceding my birth seemed to be war movies. I think this has changed also.

WW2 is not gone from our culture, but it is fading and changing. Anyway, perhaps this is a diary topic if I get time.

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Tue Feb 7th, 2006 at 07:16:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Exactly the way I feel it...

The struggle of man against tyranny is the struggle of memory against forgetting.(Kundera)
by Elco B (elcob at scarlet dot be) on Tue Feb 7th, 2006 at 07:23:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
WW2 is not gone from our culture, but it is fading and changing.

And that's sad, because, personally, I've always found WWII to be the most interesting event in history.  I love listening to my grandfather's stories from the South-Pacific.  ("Once a Marine, always a Marine," as our family always jokes.)  The battles of Britain and Stalingrad are two of my favorites -- the former being arguably the most critical battle of the war, as far as US involvement is concerned -- though I always have trouble finding decent books on the two.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Tue Feb 7th, 2006 at 02:28:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I've been trying to work myself up to a post about the fundamental problem with the EU: it has no creation myth.

Well, what about the spectre of total destruction in WWII? For this foundation myth, we even have Churchill to quote.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Feb 7th, 2006 at 04:00:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The EU refers currently to the post WWII 'pheonix out of the ashes' creation myth. In the future it can be substituted with the classic 'bull raptures bathing nymphette' myth to englobe Turkey and the new ME accession states (Syria, Iraq, Libanon, Israel and Palestine), as well as Morokko, Algeria, Lybia, Tunisia and Egypt. At that point the 'return of the muses' myth would be appropriate and (obviously) Ovid's Eneade. Btw Enea's tomb is near Lavinium. A good place to build sea side summer houses. Here is one of the smaller ones.


"The USA appears destined by fate to plague America with misery in the name of liberty." Simon Bolivar, Caracas, 1819
by Ritter on Mon Feb 6th, 2006 at 06:14:45 AM EST
The EU refers currently to the post WWII 'pheonix out of the ashes' creation myth.

Yep, that's what I meant too. While my own view may be painted by the German part of my identity (e.g. the time there and reading SPIEGEL or GEO), it definitely exists in the new member states too - the "joining the EU = re-joining Europe" meme involves that thought. Maybe that myth should be re-sold in Britain (and, it seems, in Ireland), and in some form sold in Sweden (where staying out of WWI and WWII led to a national myth of blissful isolation possibly even stronger than on the Islands).

In the future it can be substituted with the classic 'bull raptures bathing nymphette' myth to englobe Turkey and the new ME accession states (Syria, Iraq, Libanon, Israel and Palestine), as well as Morokko, Algeria, Lybia, Tunisia and Egypt. At that point the 'return of the muses' myth would be appropriate and (obviously) Ovid's Eneade. Btw Enea's tomb is near Lavinium. A good place to build sea side summer houses. Here is one of the smaller ones.

Yes to it all!

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Feb 7th, 2006 at 04:22:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The ability to integrate into a specific atmosphere and way of life, is probably one of the most crucial qualities a person may possess.However, in order to integrate into a society different from your own, you need not only to grasp its values, but to accept them as well.Thus, it is not always easy to communicate and establish friendships with people, whose culture seems so alien to you. It is not always easy to understand Islamic fundamentalism or the Islam idea of jihad. It is even harder to justify them when you see to what extreme ends they sometimes lead (We all remember September 11th and the London attacks). It would be great if people all over the world, could forget about the differences. It would be even better, if we could accept "diversity more as a gift to be embraced than a problem to be fought". However, the reality is not like that. Unfortunately, I do not see how a sense of friendship and mutual understanding may triumph over the hatred and the prejudices, which are so deeply rooted in people's minds. History has taught us that the ability to integrate,the desire to accept cultures,ideas and values different from your own,may turn out to be crucial for a person's survival. The tolerance toward cultural and racial differences has played a vital role in the preservation of cities as well. I cannot think of more suitable example than Athens itself in order to illustrate my point. If the Athenians had been more willing to incorporate all the conquered peoples, they might had well preserved their power and domination in the ancient world. So, I certainly agree with your suggestion that people should try to become friends, regardless of their skin color,religion, and culture. However, I argue that right now it is impossible.
by hitchhiker on Mon Feb 6th, 2006 at 10:20:54 AM EST
I am sorry that your experience has apparently been so limited that you believe mutual understanding given cultural diversity is impossible.  Challenging to one's prejudices and not always achievable, but richly rewarding when experienced.  
by liz (lizbryant_at_yahoo_dot_com) on Tue Feb 7th, 2006 at 11:36:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree with most of what you say. I see no problem with girls wearing headscarfs. Or rather while I do have a problem with the notions of gender and sexuality that such behaviour presumes, I think that in daily life people should be able to live by their own values. Same goes for acknowledging religious celebrations of various faiths.  I am not sure just how far society should go in accomodating such behaviour. Should a school which has co-ed gym class create a special segregated one for those who object? Should a school allow parents to withdraw from sex-ed classes? Should a town have special hours for the town pool which are for women only?  I don't know.

On the other hand society should clearly draw the line at enforcement and protect those who do not wish to abide by their community's social norms. If a girl from a fundy family (of any faith) is beaten at home for flirting, that's a crime. If a kid turns out to be  gay, the religious beliefs of the parents are no defense against child abuse. If an adult rejects everything about their parents' values, that's their right and should have the right to do so free from harassment. If she is harassed, she can get restraining orders against her family. If parents feel the science class violate their religious values, too bad.  If an adult has a problem with working in a gender mixed environment, he or she is going to have a hard time finding a job.  If he rejects having a woman, or a non white, or a Muslim as a boss, he's fired.

by MarekNYC on Mon Feb 6th, 2006 at 11:52:31 AM EST
As hitchhiker concluded, the reality is different than our dreams of a better  multicultural, and multireligious  
society.On the other hand,as John Stuart Mills argues, the progress is a result not of tradition, but of individualism and change. That is why, I consider that the so-called future multicultural society of Brzezinski
will significantly contribute to prosperity and variety in the new European Union history. The countries, which are about to join soon, may be are not so economically developed as the "core" countries,but let's not see progress only through the materialistic prism of capitalism. However, there are certain points that have to be brought to attention in order the development of the EU to be peaceful and succeessful. Let's not forget the major culprits for the riots in France i.e.
The borders of the unique and magnificent Western culture (at least with the most advanced cultural and historic achievements for me) should not be open to ungrateful immigrants...


I'm not ugly,but my beauty is a total creation.Hegel
by Chris on Mon Feb 6th, 2006 at 01:56:03 PM EST
Let's not forget the major culprits for the riots in France i.e.
The borders of the unique and magnificent Western culture (at least with the most advanced cultural and historic achievements for me) should not be open to ungrateful immigrants...
This is a misunderstanding of the French riots and has been decisively debunked by diaries on this site.

The rioters were not immigrants, they were french-born. There was no religious component to the rioting: it was all a response to social exclusion. In fact, a reaction to the difference between the proclaimed value of egalité and the reality of exclusion.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 6th, 2006 at 02:01:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Do not I have the right of personal opinion...
The phrase "ungrateful immigrants" I borrowed from a
professor of mine who is recognized with his erudition...
And about the social exclusion I think it could be overcome with certain efforts such as assidious work, education, self-improvement...
Nothing is given for free in this world...

I'm not ugly,but my beauty is a total creation.Hegel
by Chris on Mon Feb 6th, 2006 at 02:21:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You might care to read the diaries that were written on the topic hear. The youth of the banlieue are not uneducated, they are actively discriminated against in the job market because they have arabic-sounding names.

Nice recourse to the argument of authority, and to the "everyone is entitled to his opinion" argument.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 6th, 2006 at 04:46:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Regarding the authority argument.. well Calling "ungrateful inmigrants" to the rioters has a an interesting narrative that you should be able to see. And that actually your professor knows.

First, "immigrants".. this means coming from another place....they are foreigners ..not like us.. the fact that most rioters were french makes it difficult to defend...but if someone does not want to change the conclusion  because he has already a good idea in mind before the real data is received h ehas to forget it...what's that idea? well you get the key in "ungrateful".... they are foreigners .. they come to our "home" .. so they should be grateful to "us". "We" allow them to be here..

IN two words you have constructed a world of "us" versus "them" and where "them" should behave according to my rules...Even better, if you associate anyone that breaks the law with an inmigrant no mattter if he is an immigrant or not, then you have a more wonderful circle reasoning...now they really break our common rules.. they break the law..they are inmigrants because they break the law and they look to me as inmigrants. And why te break the law? beacuase they are inmigrants.

Of course, if it turns out that they are not inmigrants but French then it is a little problematic...So, next step is trying to say that someone is an "inmigrant" witout really "being an inmigrant".. well what about some weird surname or a weird colour of the skin... that will clearly make the difference..Let's say colour of the skin.

So basically "ungrateful inmigrants" has a slight touch of describing a world that does not exist but can be easily created about people from another race...It basically concludes that it is better to forget that the rioters have been living in France since they were born..that they all have very different races and backgrounds (except that all of them were poor), they are actually French...and their reason for rioting is rather complex...."inmigrant" and ungrateful" are easier to understand..but the narrative below is.. divisive (I do not want to use the harsh word)

So I would not agree with your description. And I really hope that one day you will see that he/she  (your professor) is wrong...there are  a lot of great threads about this topic hee in ET..I am sure you will love to read them..it may change your opinion...maybe not.. but at least you will understand why other people may not think like you.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Mon Feb 6th, 2006 at 05:26:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Of course, then there's the assumption that if one is a child or grandchild of immigrants, one is lacking in the drive to get an education, lacking in work ethic, lacking in the drive for self-improvement. Because, you know, people don't emigrate to improve their chances of self-realization, no, one emigrates to be lazy.

By the way, Kcurie, t'has passat con aquest comentari.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 6th, 2006 at 05:30:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I am not sure if Chris was trying to ake a joke or trying to be serious or what was the background...
I will solve that..

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Mon Feb 6th, 2006 at 05:36:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So I think now it is clear why I wrote the piece. jesus  "Pensava que ell feia conya tio...com tu".

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Mon Feb 6th, 2006 at 05:45:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hi Cris.

I really do not know exactly the "reason" or the feeling or the mood with which you made your comment.
I assumed a lot of thing I should have not assumed in my answer.

Migeru made me realize that maybe you were absolutely serious ...then my long post is not appropriate. I really strongly disagree with your comment but deconstructing it in such a detail/humorous way was not appropriate.

I should direct you the multiple thread about this topic here in ET.

I certainly apologize and you indeed can (must?) troll-rate the other comment...

In case you really wanted the kind of answer I gave you, then forget this post.

I should have asked before...sorry in any case.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Mon Feb 6th, 2006 at 05:43:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Kcurie, I took your own comment to be serious, too.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 6th, 2006 at 05:45:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I was trying to repeat the mood of the previous comment.. you know a little bit serious a little bit fun. I will say it in spanish.. "serio de conya".. the typical "que es broma, tonto"

I really draw that conclusions .. but your comment sounded so much like it that I thought that it was obvious to everybody....now it can be any way... I stil do not know...Jesus... it seemed so obvious...nothing is obvious around here...

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Mon Feb 6th, 2006 at 05:54:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Chris, to broaden on what others wrote, indeed the replies you got have several in-depth discussions on the subject behind them, a major part of which was that most of the English-speaking press (and, in turn, other press that used them as source) gave a very slanted and untrue view of the background of the actual events in France.

Some points on this:

The motivation was not religious, not a single car-burner talking on TV (and the mummed car-burners' willingness to talk to the media was another interesting angle) mentioned anything religion, in fact it was even denounced by French Muslims (as well as the majority of even the inhabitants of the cités in polls). This had more to do with the French tradition of social unrest. Or, a more focused one: culturally the car-burners had much more to do with local hip-hop culture. (You could say, what Eminem is only preaching about in as video clip, they did in practice.) Indeed our French or France-based expat readers confirmed that faces shown on TV were often white, e.g. no children of immigrants just of poor people in the cités.

A further point is that 'riot' may not be the right word for what happened. There were very few clashes with police - most of it was arson attacks, mostly against cars, you can't compare this to, say, the Rodney King riot in LA with 53 dead - or even football hooligan riots.

Furthermore, there is the issue of media attention. This was not a wave of arson attacks, but an uptick in arson attacks noticed by the media. A hundred cars were burnt every day even before it in France - and even more in Britain!

Another point our French readers stressed is in the prehistory of the conflict between the youth of the poor banlieues and the police. One of the measures of the previous leftist government to improve the situation there was to establish a 'neighbourhood police', i.e. policemen who know the communities they patrol in. But in the new right-wing government that came to power 2002, tough-guy Sarkozy dissolved these - and brought in outsiders into the cités, from a police branch known for its harshness, who then proceeded with aggressive identity checks (which were also quite racist in whom to pick), 'pre-emptive arrests' and such, all the while nothing was done to ease the job-seeking problems that are more severe for marginalised people in France than elsewhere.

A final point is that of the final reaction of the government: it wasn't just the allovance of declaring emergency situation and curfews, but the PM choose to make wide-sweeping promises on how to ease the job- , police- and education-related problems.

Last, some of the dozens of threads we had back then, and one more recent:
Paris riots
Paris 'riots': My aunt's building burned yesterday night
Unemployment rates of immigrants/non-immigrants, sensitive suburbs vs rest of France
Crisis of French society - and the left
Paris now nothing but cinders and ashes. [<-satirical entry]
Why the French Riots Were a Good Thing

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Feb 7th, 2006 at 05:19:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
My mother was an immigrant. From a country near the equator (on the equaotr, actually). Who should I ask to know if she is ungrateful?

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Feb 6th, 2006 at 05:41:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You don't understand, Jerome, "ungrateful immigrant" is a pleonasm, like "white snow". </snark>

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 6th, 2006 at 05:44:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Snow white, you mean?

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Feb 6th, 2006 at 06:29:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, I don't mean the fairy tale. That snow is white goes without saying, but people always talk about "white snow".

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 7th, 2006 at 04:07:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Round circle.

Towering skyscraper.

And of course: Evil pigeon.

And so on.

by Nomad (Bjinse) on Tue Feb 7th, 2006 at 08:18:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It would be wonderful if we could "relax, throw away preconceptions and get to know each other" (as Londonbear put it). It would be wonderful if we could realize that the OTHERS feel exactly the same way about their lifestyles, traditions and so on, as WE do about our own. It would be wonderful if we could once and forever get rid of the US/THEM division. But can we? Isn't the need to belong to, to identify with a certain ethnic, religious or whatever group human nature? The problem, however, is not the need to belong but the fact that we all (no matter if we admit it or not) feel like OUR group is better than the rest. This is what creates intolerance and makes it so hard to see the beauty of the OTHERS. As for the myths, maybe we would be better off without them. Myths have been exploited throughout history and the results have been notorious in plenty of the cases.
by ccarc on Mon Feb 6th, 2006 at 06:46:45 PM EST
Isn't the need to belong to, to identify with a certain ethnic, religious or whatever group human nature?

I think in the EU context, the real issue is: can the majority of us consciously adopt multiple identities? Because a not insignificant part of humans always do and did, in many European countries this is already a defining thing (Bavarian/German, Catalonian/SPanish, Scottish/British, Algerian/Marsellaise/immigrant/French/European, etc.) - so the question is, can European-ness become a meta-identity for most EU citizens.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Feb 7th, 2006 at 04:30:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
...a Pan-European Society really mean?

I'd guess most people see it in terms of values. Something that's an alternative to the rather homogenous and obsessive commerce-led US culture. And also to other significant economic and trading blocs around the world. Probably something that's based on Englightenment beliefs about how the world works and how it should work.

In some ways it's a brave experiment. Other empires - Rome, France, many others - were based primarily on military strength. Sometimes they were shortlived because they were tied to the fate and skills of one ruler. Without that ruler they soon fell apart. But the EU doesn't have a ruler, it has a parliament and a bureaucracy and apparently a loose and often unstated collection of ideals. And it doesn't have an empire so much as a loose association of allies. It's an unusual way to try to build something lasting.

It's interesting that while the US frets about the Chinese, Europe is potentially a much bigger commercial threat to the US - not only in terms of PetroDollars becoming PetroEuros, but in terms of innovation and inventiveness. I don't know what a PanEuro society could look like. Empires always complain about immigrants and always treat them with lower status. So the Muslim issue shouldn't really be a surprising development.

But thinking about it, it's possibly the wrong question. There's a huge corporate land grab happening at the moment all over the planet, similar to the Enclosure Acts in England in the 18th and 19th century. The poor and middle class - anyone who doesn't have a corporate-sponsored job - are being deprived of a livelihood, and some of the ideals of the 60, like creative freedom and independence are being undermined. Europe doesn't seem to have a position on that. It's hard to tell which way the wind is blowing. The UK seems broadly supportive of corporate power and broadly hostile to groups that don't want to accept it - although the coercion seems based on legalisms rather than outright force, which makes it seem more subtle than it really is.

I don't know what the European angle on this is. But it's possibly a more pressing issue than rather abstract notions of European identity.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Feb 6th, 2006 at 07:03:00 PM EST
And a welcome to ET, too! Glad to have you commenting.

Your post got me thinking: European nations worry all the time about "the" European identity, while Jerome and others point out that the European Dream (as I call it) does have strong roots in history. And perhaps you're right: exactly because there are other people around that tell Europe doesn't have an identity, the debate turns into discussing whether we have it - and hence Europe ignores the more pressing issues at stake.

Then again, Europe is hardly one to speak with one voice: the diversity within it is simply too large. This comes back in every international issue, whether it is the Iraq invasion or the Danish cartoons.

by Nomad (Bjinse) on Mon Feb 6th, 2006 at 07:41:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There was a debate in France and Germany as well, I believe, as to whether Turkey should be allowed access to the EU or not. I have my own opinion on that matter, but would be very interested in some insightful comments on that topic, in order to substantiate or debunk my opinion.

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Mon Feb 6th, 2006 at 10:29:53 PM EST
Oh no, let's not do Turkey at the moment. There's enough bloody fighting going on ... have a look through the archives. It's a contentious issue, to say the least.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Feb 7th, 2006 at 02:29:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]


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