Welcome to European Tribune. It's gone a bit quiet around here these days, but it's still going.

Afternoon Open Thread: Knockout quotes

by DoDo Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 12:24:08 PM EST

Who said this, when?

" Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance, and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes you can do these things. Among them are H. L. Hunt (you possibly know his background), a few other Texas oil millionaires, and an occasional politician or business man from other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid."














President Dwight D. Eisenhower, in a letter to his brother Edgar on November 8, 1954.

On the site of the Political Compass we asked our readers yesterday to take, you'll find another test, where you can guess who said certain quotes or did certain acts.

Display:
Useful resource from Nosemonkey:

A collection of useful resources, which I plan to keep expanding - let me know if you've found any I'm missing:
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 12:25:34 PM EST
Does anyone know where Donington Park is, relative to Nottingham?

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 12:52:38 PM EST
It's fairly close.

You are a racing man I take it?

It's very close to the East Midlands airport, if you know where that is?

Maybe this map helps.

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 01:12:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, no, not racing.  We may be moving to Nottingham earlier than I had initially planned -- somewhere around July or August.  So we're going to try and find an apartment in June, and I may try to schedule it so that we can go to the Download Festival, since Guns N' Roses are apparently threatening to play it.

Their last tour, back in 2002, was shut down about a week before we were supposed to see them in West Palm Beach, so I've been waiting for another chance, and this might fit the bill.

I thought it was near East Midlands International.  That works out well.  Thanks.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 01:25:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Isn't is Alex who will take a great interest in this?

Nike designs sports hijab.

----------------

On a more serious note, perhaps others have an interest in another around of propaganda:

EU economic Lisbon Strategy "basically abandoned" according to Deutsche Welle

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 01:17:34 PM EST
At the same time, however, Verheugen has called on companies to adhere to EU competition rules, and criticized the protectionist measures that some national governments have put in place to prevent takeovers by foreign companies.

How can he even say those things in the same sentence?

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 01:20:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The European Parliament has already watered down the EU services directive, although Verheugen says it is essential that service providers from all over Europe are free from discrimination. He added, though, that service providers must do business under the rules of the country in which they are performed, particularly wage and social security regulations.

He warned member states about opposing the services guidelines too strongly, since provisions for the free movement of labor go into effect in 2011. By that time, the restrictions placed upon the 10 member states which joined the EU in 2005 will have expired and the entire European market will be open for both workers and services
 

Then why do you need the services directive, exactly?  Hardly worth the fuss is it?

Lying shit.

Actually, why do they need the services directive?

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 01:29:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Um, I may be wrong, but he's just lying again.

The actions of the services directive are not "about the accession country issue" they affect regulations in all EU countries and I think he is muddying the waters by trying to link it to worker movement.

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 01:39:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Bastards! They think we're not paying attention.

But, really, the EU has so miserably failed to communicate what they're doing to the general public, and to simplify its procedures, that if they think they can get away with this shit they are probably right. The national governments don't seem to know any better either how to deal with EU directives.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 02:14:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There was a court decision very recently in France that stated very clearly that Polish workers employed in France by a Polish subcontractor on a big construction contract 5 I thnik it was work in ship construction for Alstom) had to be paid the French minimum wage while working in France.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 03:08:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This is consistent with the Services Directive as amended by the EP, but obviously not what Bolkestein intended with the original Country of Origin Principla.

Expect snactimonious pronouncements on the spirit of the law in the press.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 03:14:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Click on the image for a larger picture, with names.

Those of you who haven't taken the test yet can do so at politicalcompass.org and post your scores as replies to this comment. I'll add your score to the graphs.

Observe the little group démarré du peloton around our dear leader. Observe also that the à Paris clan monopolizes the right-wing edge.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 02:12:21 PM EST
Can you make my name be aligned on the left, instead of making it spill over to the right?

The additional sympathy that this will get me from our Great Leaders will benefit me. I could move up the waiting list for the datchas.

by Alex in Toulouse on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 02:16:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You and your petit-bourgeois requests...

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 02:19:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Alternately, could you tilt my name by 90 degrees counter-clockwise and place it so that the final "e" in "Toulouse" is on my dot.

I'd like to rejoin the hive, I feel a bit isolated.

by Alex in Toulouse on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 02:23:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We have a nice hive for you in Siberia, my friend.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 02:28:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You cushion-waving fanatics don't have what it takes to be Chairman Maos. Look at me and NearlyNormal. We are the voice of the People. We are hard lefties with a whip in hand. We should be doing the ticket bookings to the Eastern steppes.
by Alex in Toulouse on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 02:31:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yeah, but Jerome, ATinNM and I are the gun-toting libertarian-righties, relative to everybody else.  So bring what whip you may. ;)

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 02:48:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
NN and I will ban guns and whip you into accepting it.
by Alex in Toulouse on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 02:52:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"From my cold, dead hands."

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 03:13:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"Lieutenant, get me through to the 1st Armoured Division"
by Alex in Toulouse on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 03:19:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Long live Chiang Kai-shek!

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 03:46:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"Bruce Lee, can you come over here for a minute? Yeah, some trouble-makers across the strait."
by Alex in Toulouse on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 03:59:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, come on now.  Aside from being dead, you know Bruce Lee would've been a Nationalist.  After all, Mao would've taken away all of his money and spent it on swimming-related items.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 04:16:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"Yeah, Bruce Lee please, extension 232. Yeah Bruce can you hurry and get your ass over here, they're getting louder over there"
by Alex in Toulouse on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 04:18:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Alex, you are part of the "flying wing" of progress formed by you, I, the stormy present and Marek. Surely you don't want to leave such a cutting edge group?
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 02:48:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Mmmmmm, nah. Time for me to split!

You three all need to be whipped on economic issues, and you're far too lenient on social issues.

I'm afraid only NearlyNomad and myself are leftie enough to know how to whip people for their own good.

by Alex in Toulouse on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 02:52:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I have improved the location of all the names so there are no overlaps and the graph is more balanced. We also have wchurchill taking the Whip Award away from Agnes, but Jerome stays King of Cigars.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 03:10:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What is in some sense hilarious is that asdf also scored in the -3, -3 region, so we don't have a regular commenter outside the bottom left quadrant!

(This shouldn't surprise in one sense, we are a lefty discussion board, but I guess someone should write a diary reflecting on groupthink.)

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 03:19:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
where is asdf's score? Can you point me to the comment?

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 03:27:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think you found it and commented about decimal places already?
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 04:02:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
yup.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 05:19:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Manfrom Middletown:

Economic Left/Right: -9.50
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -7.59

By the time I'm geriatric, I'll be a nice moderate like Dodo......

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 02:26:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Nah, you'll join Izzy, poemless, DeAnander, or even Alexandra, dvx! You'll be a Menshevik my friend!

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 03:43:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Menshevik?  Russian's not my style. Though my father's family is apparently of the same branch of Volga Germans as Lenin's grandmother.

I've always been fascinated by the Spanish Civil War, it's the reason I studied there.  If I could time travel I would got to Barcelona in 1936, I'm fascinated by the International Brigades, but I think I'd feel more at home with the Anarcho-syndicalists.  

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 04:02:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I was referring to some joking-around yesterday. Just to war you off: be respectful before afew, he is Comrade Chairman! There is also a gang of Ghandis, and a Gang of Four.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 04:08:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Alas that no longer applies. There is now only one Chairman Mao, NearlyNormal, and Alex is his prophet.

All of yesterday's usurpers will get the whip.

by Alex in Toulouse on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 04:09:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I hope the Comrade Chairman likes cream in his coffee........


And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg
by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 04:14:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Comrade Chairman is DoDo. I'm out of it, got back to conservative respectability, see below.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 04:22:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hmmm, this is not the first time I've been called a Right Menshevik (not quite in the same sense as "a right eejit") -- I believe the prior art goes to either R'giap or Comrade Slothrop at the Moon of Alabama, where L Beria has also been known to make brief appearances...

What amuses me about the original 'compass' poll is that  for several years somewhat in jest I have been calling myself a 'socialist libertarian' or 'libertarian socialist,' and hot dang if the compass poll doesn't seem to substantiate the claim :-)

The difference between theory and practise in practise ...

by DeAnander (de_at_daclarke_dot_org) on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 12:34:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
They can only call you a libertarian socialist in jest out of ignorance, because the term is well established.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 02:19:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This explains why your photos got confused with Ritter's the other day.

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes
by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 04:20:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Economic Left/Right: -8.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -7.08
by b real on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 02:32:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Helen
Social : -5.25
Economic : -5.18

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 03:04:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sven is Economic Left/Right: -6.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -7.64

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 04:18:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I am in the bottom left as well (surprise...):
Economic Left/Right: -6.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -7.33

and I think that is my usual score, I don;t think I have moved.

by PeWi on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 04:54:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I've overcome my paranoia that I'll erase everything, and added a new feature to our map at Frappr.  

What is your primary language:

  • German

  • English

  • French

  • Italian

  • Spanish

  • Other


  • And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg
    by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 04:56:41 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    tuasfait:

    Economic: -3.13
    Social: -4.26

    Maybe my Englishese is not good enough to understand the questions.

    I will become a patissier, God willing.

    by tuasfait on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 09:30:29 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    I had some objections on the test, but did it anyway:

    Economic Left/Right: -7.63
    Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.31

    Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

    by A swedish kind of death on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 06:33:26 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    You're landing in unclaimed territory (between Sam and Afew), so I won't have to chop up your name when I add you.

    A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
    by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 06:40:42 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    That is good.

    If we get cluttering reinforcement down here in the territory of the free, 'askod' is an abreviation people have used before.

    Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

    by A swedish kind of death on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 06:44:50 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Economic Left/Right: -9.38
    Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -7.74

    I seem to have taken the test three times now in ~2 year intervals. Although my libertarianism seems to be more or less steady, I am drifting slowly to the left edge of the left-right axis. I don't know if I should be worried. By the time I'm sixty, at this rate, I'll be joining an armed maoist rebellion in some third world country (which will then execute me because of my petty-bourgeois libertarianism).

    The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake

    by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 06:37:28 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Your political compass
    Economic Left/Right: -7.13
    Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.49

    _______________________________________________

    "Those who fight might lose, those who don't fight have already lost." - Berthold Brecht

    by RavenTS on Thu Mar 23rd, 2006 at 04:46:49 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Here's another political test that looks alright, and that hands out a compass of sorts.
    http://politics.beasts.org/scripts/survey

    Ok, I'm taking it now.

    by Alex in Toulouse on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 03:47:40 PM EST
    1     left/right      -8.9350 (-0.5378)
    2    pragmatism     +0.3820 (+0.0230)
    by Alex in Toulouse on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 03:56:51 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Oh!

    1     left/right      -8.7628 (-0.5275)
    2    pragmatism     +0.3440 (+0.0207)

    So! Now you're more of a leftie than Chairman Mao?

    by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 04:11:52 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    I believe this test is more accurate than yesterday's, Prime Minister afew. Please summon the Council of Ministers, as we have had a long day and want to retire to our chambers early.
    by Alex in Toulouse on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 04:14:51 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    At once, Ma'am. Would Her Royal Highness like me to call the chambermaid with the warming-pan? Yes, the nights are chilly, Ma'am.
    by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 04:18:09 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Ohhhh! You just earned yourself a one way ticket to Australia.
    by Alex in Toulouse on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 04:20:12 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    I believe this test is more accurate than yesterday's

    I'm not so sure - there were a lot more questions that would really be "it depends" or were loaded questions, and there were intended question doublings where the two versions didn't really mean the same...

    *Lunatic*, n.
    One whose delusions are out of fashion.

    by DoDo on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 04:43:07 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Well anyhow the guy explains his methodology (unlike politicalcompass.org), has published his thing under a Creative Commons licence, and also lists political statements by various political celebrities to measure their own compass. So I find his approach is more appealing.

    But you're right about ambiguity and doublings, though about the doublings maybe that is intentional and the weight passed off by them is not the same in both cases (I'm too lazy to read all his source).

    by Alex in Toulouse on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 04:52:44 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    I strongly agree!  For instance, the one about taxes on cars forcing people off the roads.  I was against it when it said it would force people off, and for it when it left that open.  There's a lot of tax issues like that where I see no need to leave out nuance with an all or nothing stance.  

    If poor people's jobs depend on having a car (which is often the case here) I see no need to tax them off the roads and let the rich in their SUV's slide because of some misplaced sense of fairness.

    Also, I agreed that everyone should have internet access as a generalization.  I do believe that certain predatory prisoners should not have access to the net, but that should be a rare punishment given only on a case by case basis.

    BTW, my score was L/R -9.3099 and prag. -1.1628

    Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes

    by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 04:54:46 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    To give people an idea, Alex and I scored almost identically:

    • like Ken Livingstone on the left/right axis,

    • like Tony Blair on the pragmatism/idealism axis
    by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 04:26:26 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    1 left/right  -8.4660 (-0.5096)
    2 pragmatism  -1.5701 (-0.0945)

    My crosshairs are dead on Ken Livingstone.  

    I'm no pragmatist I guess.

    You may say I'm a dreamer, and I am the only one....

    And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

    by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 04:36:47 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    1     left/right      -10.0117 (-0.6026)
    2    pragmatism     -2.1928 (-0.1320)

    *Lunatic*, n.
    One whose delusions are out of fashion.
    by DoDo on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 04:36:27 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    I think this test put to rest any previous doubts we had about your penchant for Leftism and your élan for idealism.

    We live for the One, we die for the One.

    by Alex in Toulouse on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 04:38:49 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Well, IIRC the left-maximum is -16, so I am disappointed...

    *Lunatic*, n.
    One whose delusions are out of fashion.
    by DoDo on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 04:44:45 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    (1) left/right: -5.95
    (2) pragmatism: 5.65

    Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
    by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 04:43:37 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Heavy duty pragmatism!
    by Alex in Toulouse on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 05:25:54 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    left/right      -5.0474 (-0.3038)
    pragmatism     +2.1128 (+0.1272)

    Hmmm.  This does not surprise me.

    by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 04:43:54 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    For the record, though, I took the test with reference to the US, not Egypt.  Some of my answers for Egypt would have been very different.

    I had trouble answering a number of the questions anyway.  It's that context thing again, and I think the wording was deliberately ambiguous.

    by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 04:52:06 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    The guy explains in his rationale (or FAQ) that double negatives were frequently used intentionally, and he also makes a statement about how politicalcompass.org sort of only and strictly ushers you one way or the other).

    So on this basis, I believe that by introducing double negatives, his intent was to make you think about your answer a bit more (so you don't precipitate and go for the one you think is correct but only for the one which you know is the one you want).

    I'm just making these assumptions.

    by Alex in Toulouse on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 04:57:19 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    I didn't have a problem with the double negatives, it was more the fact that so many of the questions I got were framed in absolute terms with vague terminology.  What I ended up having to do was decide whether to give an honest answer or a less honest one that better reflects the underlying beliefs that the question was (badly) designed to measure.  Am I making any sense?  DeAnander's comment downthread describes my frustration better than I could.
    by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 02:16:06 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    I don't know how the software handles the country aspect. Possibly just by bumping up or down by a country coefficient, like, France is supposedly more left-wing than, say, the US, so someone from France gets moderated on the left/right axis. Something along the lines of what's done with opinion polls.

    Note that the questions themselves don't change. Asking if public prosecutors should be named by the government instead of being elected is a question that doesn't apply in most countries, for example, but it doesn't disappear because you choose another country than the US.

    by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 01:54:22 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Mind you, Jérôme's score would appear to show I'm wrong about the coefficient idea...
    by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 01:56:21 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Or right: anybody French is automatically given a -3 on the left-right scale as a "handicap"...

    In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
    by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 03:44:02 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Do you need another handicap? Isn't being French enough?  ;-)
    by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 04:04:57 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    I know the questions don't change, but some of the answers would.  E.g. the question about our society getting its sense of right and wrong from shared religious values.  I got the descriptive version of that question (see DeAnander's post below), and you'd have to have your head up your ass to answer anything but "strongly agree" to that in an Egyptian context.

    Besides, some of the questions aren't remotely relevant to the political spectrum here.  I mean honestly, the Muslim Brotherhood and the Communist Party have held protests together.

    by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 02:10:42 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Yes, and I can't find any explanation (on the site) of the reason for having a country choice, and how that choice is balanced in the result.
    by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 05:57:23 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Just when you are asked for a country choice, it is stated that it is only for statistical purposes.

    *Lunatic*, n.
    One whose delusions are out of fashion.
    by DoDo on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 06:19:54 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Also, your result is plotted on an axis including relevant political figures. I chose 'UK' and got plotted against the UK political spectrum (right next to Charles Kennedy, actually).

    A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
    by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 06:23:17 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    It is an UK test, everyone gets shown the same scale.

    *Lunatic*, n.
    One whose delusions are out of fashion.
    by DoDo on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 06:24:07 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Well, that is silly.

    A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
    by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 06:25:44 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Or just honest.

    *Lunatic*, n.
    One whose delusions are out of fashion.
    by DoDo on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 06:30:43 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Yes, I got the British pols though I indicated France.
    by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 07:34:11 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    1    left/right    -6.0678 (-0.3652)
    2    pragmatism    +1.7652 (+0.1063)

    I'm a libdem, it would seem... which sounds about right

    In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

    by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 04:45:58 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    On the ET Political Compass, (I think), you and I occupied the extreme positions on the left/right axis. On this one we're not far from each other, in the middle of the left (which runs to -16).

    Encore un effort, camarade! You can still make it to Comrade Chairman!

    by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 01:39:47 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
     Axis Position
    1 left/right  -9.4712 (-0.5701)
    2 pragmatism  -1.1002 (-0.0662)

    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire
    by p------- on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 04:49:17 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    1     left/right      -4.8818 (-0.2938)
    2    pragmatism     +0.8042 (+0.0484)

    Apparently I'm Charles Kennedy, but less left wing.

    This result may be affected by my irritable mood for ill-defined questions.

    by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 04:54:57 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    1.    left/right      -6.9064 (-0.4157)
    2    pragmatism     +1.2923 (+0.0778)

    A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
    by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 05:01:19 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    1
    left/right
    -6.6044 (-0.3975)

    2
    pragmatism
    +0.3595 (+0.0216)

    by PeWi on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 05:05:24 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    I like it a lot that you're able to bookmark your results page, and how informative that is.

    A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
    by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 05:10:04 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    I also like the fact that they place Stalin at +2 on the left/right scale (and do not just assume that he was an authoritarian leftie, like the politicalcompass does). ie. something like "sometimes civilians are a legitimate civilian target", to which Stalin would have answered "strongly agree" according to this test, is more in tone with the Hawks currently in Washington, than with the European Green party.
    by Alex in Toulouse on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 05:32:18 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    correction: that would be "legitimate military target"
    by Alex in Toulouse on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 05:33:43 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    left/right      -7.5686 (-0.4556)
    pragmatism     +2.2514 (+0.1355)

    So pragmatic left?? I guess so.

    by Alexandra in WMass (alexandra_wmass[a|t]yahoo[d|o|t]fr) on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 05:15:12 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
            Axis    Position
    1       left/right      -9.1584 (-0.5513)
    2       pragmatism      -2.1708 (-0.1307)

    oh boy, this questionnaire was even more maddening than the previous one.  allow me to grouse (writing from the US):

    Shared religious belief isn't an important part of our society.

    What about the answer "Yes it is, alas, but I surely do wish it were not?"  If I answer the question truthfully, shared religious belief has enormous power in US political and social life.  Do I think this is a great thing?  Nononono.  But if I answer Yes it will be taken as a rightist or conservative inclination.

    Correct grammar doesn't matter.

    Of course it matters when it changes the meaning of the text but no context is given here, so once again if I answer that it matters, I score some elitist or rightist points.

    We can't offer sanctuary to everyone who is fleeing persecution.

    If I answer truthfully Yes, i.e. the sheer number of persecuted persons in the world (practically every woman in Afghanistan, Nigeria, and many other countries just for starters) makes it logistically unthinkable to attempt a population transfer on that scale, even supposing that all those persecuted people would want to run away rather than battle their persecutors at home... then I get a score for "anti-immigration" or conservative.

    No crime, however serious, should be punished by death.

    Again, very badly worded.  If the question is, Do I think the State should have the power of execution, my answer is probably No.  However there are cases in which I feel the survivor or the survivor's family should be given the opportunity to kill the perp with their own hands, if they want to badly enough.  This is not an option.  Nor can I say, for example, that I thought piano wire was pretty much what Mussolini deserved, but that the death penalty as practised in the US CJ[haha]S is barbaric and abominable.

    There are some sexual acts which are immoral, even between consenting adults.

    Here we get into conflicting definitions of "immoral," in that I would consider it immoral for example, for adults to indulge one another in the enactment of racist or paedophilic fantasy scenarios, in the same way that I think it immoral for enthusiasts to dress up in Nazi regalia and march around in an orgy of Hitler-nostalgia.  Playing about frivolously with the real lives, deaths, pain of real people is not my idea of moral behaviour.  Whether it is unethical in the social sense is a more difficult question.  But if I answer "yes" to this question I will be read as disapproving of specific sexual acts or gender combinations, which will be used to type me as conservative or rightist.  Nor is a distinction drawn between "morality", i.e. what I think is right or wrong but not legislatable, and "ethics", which is what I would consider socially exposed or legislatable.  This really is an annoying poll.

    People of any ethnic group can be fully integrated into our society.

    What does "fully integrated" mean?  Does it mean taking their children away from them and preventing them from learning their native language (as was done to Australian and N American indigenes)?   Does it mean banning the wearing of the green (or the tartan)?  Does it mean forcible assimilation or voluntary integration?  and why am I not asked whether, if it means assimilation, I think this is a Good Thing (TM) or not?

    The government should raise revenue by taxing consumption rather than income.

    Again maddeningly vague!  A flat consumption tax is obviously regressive, a sumptuary tax is quite a different beast and imho legitimate.

    There is a danger that some large corporations will become more powerful than governments.

    Hello?  Already happened.  Where's that option?

    There's no need to subsidise farmers if we can buy food more cheaply from abroad, even if that meant they went out of business

    Oh gawd.  OK, what does "cheaply" mean, and if I say Yes I am interpreted as being in favour of long haul cash cropping, which I am not, and if I say No I am read as in favour of grotesque and counterproductive (not to mention ecologically suicidal) farm subsidies.  This is the kind of questionnaire that makes my brain want to escape out my ears and flap around the room gibbering.

    Family is more important than society.

    And what the bloody hell defines "family" if not "society"?  "Family" is what "society" says family is, and "society" is what a lot of families in the aggregate are called.  What a stupid question.  If my society is Edwardian England (or large swathes of the US) then if I have a gay or lesbian lover, that person is not "family" because "society" says they are not, and cannot visit me in hospital or share my insurance benefits.  But if I am in an enlightened country or epoch, that person is "family".  So which is more important, "family" or "society"?  The poll author can take his/their sloppy design and morass of unexamined assumptions and...  [I'm not in a good mood tonight, I can tell]

    The difference between theory and practise in practise ...

    by DeAnander (de_at_daclarke_dot_org) on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 01:01:23 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Thank you!  That pretty much sums up my experience with this quiz, too.  I found it terribly frustrating.
    by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 01:55:39 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Totally agree, these things can't be taken seriously.

    But did we get the same questions? I got, for example:

    Shared religious belief should be an important part of our society.

    We should offer sanctuary to everyone who is fleeing persecution.

    ??

    by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 02:17:49 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    There are two versions of every questions, which is a common technique in opinion surveys, meant to control for question bias.  But I don't think he worded some of the questions carefully enough.
    by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 02:33:28 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    I took those two examples from my results page. There's no alternative version of them.

    Though I did notice some repeats with rephrasing (especially the final bunch of questions).

    by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 03:06:59 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Well, the thing is, you don't get asked every question twice, so bescially I got different questions to you, slightly.
    by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 03:17:07 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    I think I did get asked some questions twice.

    A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
    by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 03:25:02 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Hem, I said "You don't get asked every question twice....  ;-)
    by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 04:03:45 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Yes, he explains that some questions are asked twice in one questionnaire, also, each statement has its converse, and the two forms are interchangeable:

    Each statement has a "normal" and a "converse" form. We ask each statement once, choosing the normal or converse form at random, and for a few statements, also ask them in their second form. The idea of this is that we can later see whether the answers to the two forms of each question are inversely correlated, as they should be. This tests whether the statements are balanced.

    See this page.

    by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 04:16:42 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    I may be misunderstanding you. Time for some coffee and a glance at his technical explanations which I should have read before opening my big mouth.
    by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 03:15:05 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    However there are cases in which I feel the survivor or the survivor's family should be given the opportunity to kill the perp with their own hands, if they want to badly enough.

    Seriously?

    Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes

    by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 02:19:17 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Well, that shocked me too, especially from De!

    Do all victims correctly recognise the perpetrator? Can the State tell when they do? Can the State tell when the accusation is entirely correct? Even if the State could, would it always fairly strive to? Is revenge moral?

    *Lunatic*, n.
    One whose delusions are out of fashion.

    by DoDo on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 05:07:04 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    left/right      -8.0448 (-0.4842)
    pragmatism     +2.4078 (+0.1449)

    Oh wow that's pretty left wing

    Economic Left/Right: -3.88
    Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -7.23

    by Travis (stnemmoc at gmail dot com) on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 02:18:35 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    -5.9140
    +0.4407

    This one has me a little less to the left and more pragmatic than I would have expected -- but I think it is because I answered "no opinion" to several questions.

    Political compass has me at -6.13 and -5.28.

    by numediaman on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 04:29:45 PM EST
    Well "no opinion" has a weight too (it's explained in the process). The guy's rationale for his test being better than political compass is also interesting to read.

    In his "celebrities" page he also provides exact values (even if not based on actual tests), unlike the political compass which left us guessing as to Gandhi's real values.

    Ken Livingstone's are:
    -8.5075 (-0.5121)
    -0.8766 (-0.0528)

    by Alex in Toulouse on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 04:35:07 PM EST
    [ Parent ]


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