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Basque peace process: from the horse's mouth

by Migeru Thu Mar 23rd, 2006 at 06:07:48 AM EST

As was promised yesterday, the Basque newspaper Gara published today a second communique by ETA, in which they outline their views on the new political situation opened by their truce declared yesterday (and in force since tomorrow).

Here are the Spanish press [online] headlines on the second day:
First, my personal favourite papers:

Then, the rest of the national press:
Finally, the Basque press:
Below the fold, the Basque peace process, from the horse's mouth.

Previous diaries on the issue:

Promoted by Colman


Gara: Eta declares a permanent ceasefire to propel a democratic process

Declaración de Euskadi Ta Askatasuna a Euskal Herria

ETA, organización socialista revolucionaria vasca de liberación nacional, desea mediante esta Declaración dar a conocer la siguiente decisión:

Euskadi Ta Askatasuna ha decidido declarar un alto el fuego permanente a partir de las 00:00 horas del 24 de marzo de 2006.

Reflexión de ETA

El objetivo de esta decisión es impulsar un proceso democrático en Euskal Herria para que mediante el diálogo, la negociación y el acuerdo, el Pueblo Vasco pueda realizar el cambio político que necesita.

Superando el actual marco de negación, partición e imposición hay que construir un marco democrático para Euskal Herria, reconociendo los derechos que como pueblo le corresponden y asegurando de cara al futuro la posibilidad de desarrollo de todas las opciones políticas.

Al final de ese proceso los ciudadanos y ciudadanas vascas deben tener la palabra y la decisión sobre su futuro, dando así una solución democrática al conflicto.

ETA considera que corresponde a todos los agentes vascos desarrollar ese proceso y adoptar los acuerdos correspondientes al futuro de Euskal Herria, teniendo en cuenta su pluralidad y totalidad.

Los Estados español y francés deben reconocer los resultados de dicho proceso democrático, sin ningún tipo de injerencias ni limitaciones. La decisión que los ciudadanos y ciudadanas vascas adoptemos sobre nuestro futuro deberá ser respetada.

Llamamiento de ETA

Hacemos un llamamiento a todos los agentes para que actúen con responsabilidad y sean consecuentes ante el paso dado por ETA.

Es tiempo de compromisos. Todos debemos asumir responsabilidades, para construir entre todos la solución democrática que el Pueblo vasco necesita. Es el momento de tomar decisiones de calado, pasando de las palabras a los hechos.

ETA hace un llamamiento a las autoridades de España y Francia para que respondan de manera positiva a esta nueva situación y para que no pongan obstáculos al proceso democrático, dejando de lado la represión y mostrando la voluntad de dar una salida negociada al conflicto.

Finalmente, hacemos un llamamiento a los ciudadanos y ciudadanas vascas en general y a los militantes de la Izquierda Abertzale en particular, para que se impliquen en este proceso y luchen por los derechos que como Pueblo nos corresponden.

Compromiso de ETA

ETA muestra su deseo y voluntad de que el proceso abierto llegue hasta el final, y así conseguir una verdadera situación democrática para Euskal Herria, superando el conflicto de largos años y construyendo una paz basada en la justicia. Nos reafirmamos en el compromiso de seguir dando pasos en el futuro acordes a esa voluntad y de seguir luchando hasta lograr los derechos de Euskal Herria.

La superación del conflicto, aquí y ahora, es posible. Ese es el deseo y la voluntad de ETA. -

En Euskal Herria, marzo de 2006

Euskadi Ta Askatasuna

E.T.A.

Update [2006-3-23 10:34:47 by Migeru]: translation (all errors and omissions mine): original also in Basque and French
Declaration from _Euskadi Ta Askatasuna_ [Basque Fatherland and Freedom] to _Euskal Herria_ [the Basque Nation]

ETA, Basque revolutionary socialist organization for national liberation, wishes through this Declaration make the following decision known:

Euskadi Ta Askatasuna has decided to declare a permanent ceasefire from 00:00 hours on 24 March 2006.

ETA's reflection

The goal of this decision is to propel a democratic process in Euskal Herria so that, through dialogue, negotiation and agreement, the basque People can realize the political change it needs.

Overcoming the current framework of negation, partition and imposition a democratic framework must be build for Euskal Herria, recognising the rights that correspond to it as a people and ensuring for the future the possibility of developing all political options.

At the end of that process the Basque citizens shall have the word and the decision on their future, thus giving a democratic solution to the conflict.

ETA considers that it corresponds to all Basque agents to develop that process and adopt the agreements corresponding to the future of Euskal Herria, taking into account its plurality and totality.

The Spanish and French states must recognize the results of the said democratic process, without any kinds of meddling or limitations. The decision that we Basque citizens adopt on our future must be respected.

ETA's appeal

We make an appeal to all agents to act responsibly and be consequent with the step taken by ETA.

It is time for compromises. We must all assume responsibilities, to build among all [of us] the democratic solution that the Basque People need. It is a moment for taking deep decisions, going from the words to the deeds.

ETA makes an appeal to the authorities of Spain and France so that they respond in a positive way to this new situation and not set obstacles to the democratic process, leaving aside repression and showing a will to give a negotiated exit to the conflict.

Finallly, we make an appeal to the Basque citizens in general and the militants of the Abertzale [patriotic] left in particular, so that they commit themselves to this process and fight for the rights that correspond to us as a People.

ETA's commitment

ETA shows its wish and will that the open process goes to the end, and so achieve a true democratic sutiation for Euskal Herria, overcoming the conflict of many years and building a peace based on justice. We reassert the commitment to keep taking steps in the future according to that will and to continue struggling until Euskal Herria's rights are achieved.

Overcoming the conflict, here and now, is possible. This is the wish and the will of ETA. -

In Euskal Herria, March 2006

Euskadi Ta Askatasuna

E.T.A.

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There are a lot of backgroung articles on this right now. El Pais, for instance, is beginning to publish behind-the-scenes accounts on how this came to pass.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 23rd, 2006 at 06:12:56 AM EST
This article seems important:
El Pais: Zapatero received the first ETA letter in August 2004 (23-03-2006)
The president [PM] has asserted that this time it will be La Moncloa [the office of the PM] that will steer the conversations to end violence

...

Zapatero is seen by the world of Batasuna and ETA as the last plank to hold on to [in order to] save themselves from a shipwreck after the police, judicial and international harassment they suffer, and to find an end through dialogue. Therefore, the gang had a letter delivered to Zapatero in August 2004, in which they requested that comunication with his government be established. It was the start of a process which, on the political arena, had a previous and parallel correspondence between Batasuna's leader, Arnaldo Otegi, and the president of the Basque Socialist Parti (PSE, Partido Socialista de Euskadi), Jesús Eguiguren, whose conversation, which have eased the road to ETA's ceasefire declaration, go back to four years ago.



A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 23rd, 2006 at 06:28:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The use of "gang" to describe is interesting, to say the least.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Mar 23rd, 2006 at 06:28:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, it's your translation. Group might be a better word to use in English: gang really has purely criminal connotations.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Mar 23rd, 2006 at 06:30:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think 'gang' is the proper translation: see my other comment.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 23rd, 2006 at 06:32:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ok, the Real Academia gives the following meanings:

banda
  1. group of armed people
  2. partisans or number of people following someone
  3. flock, pack
  4. youth gang with a tendency to behave aggressively
...


A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 23rd, 2006 at 06:37:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"armed group" would work.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Mar 23rd, 2006 at 06:39:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But I'll stop molesting commas now.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Mar 23rd, 2006 at 06:39:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, this is an interesting deconstruction.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 23rd, 2006 at 06:40:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In that case, it was interesting to watch how the descriptions of the terrorist groups changed over the course of the peace process and according to who was speaking. The phrases became much more neutral as time went on.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Mar 23rd, 2006 at 06:42:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't intend to be reading ABC much, but their headline is nothing short of amazing.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 23rd, 2006 at 06:44:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It is customary to call ETA "La banda terrorista", and ETA members are usually charged with  pertenencia a banda armada. "Gang" is the best translation I can muster (but is not to be confused with "street gang": pandilla).

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 23rd, 2006 at 06:31:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Unfortunately, "gang" in English really has the connotations of street or criminal gang. "terrorist band" would seem like a perfectly fine translation of "La banda terrorista", if a bit archaic. It just clashes a bit with the way Northern Irish terrorists would have been described: only their opponents would call them a gang.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Mar 23rd, 2006 at 06:36:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If I translate la banda as "the band" it almost sounds like a music band. I suppose group is ok. But, really, only ETA is banda terrorista or banda armada in the Spanish press. Foreign groups are called grupo terrorista or grupo armado.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 23rd, 2006 at 06:39:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think group is probably the best English translation, unless the original was meant to be pejorative.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Mar 23rd, 2006 at 06:41:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That would be my contention, actually.

I am not going to pretend the Spanish press is impartial on this, and El Mundo, ABC and La Razon are going to be hostile, also to Zapatero.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 23rd, 2006 at 06:43:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's not going to be helpful to the process. Media engagement is important. How much of a grassroots does ETA have? One of the things in the North was watching how carefully the IRA/Sinn Fein leadership(s) had to coax their grassroots along with them.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Mar 23rd, 2006 at 06:45:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
ETA grassroots can be measured by Batasuna's vote: 10% to 15%.

By the way, among the Basque press, notice the difference in headlines between Gara (Batasuna) ETA (Basque Nationalist Party) and El Diario Vasco and El Correo Vasco.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 23rd, 2006 at 06:47:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Is Batasuna as linked to ETA as Sinn Fein is to the IRA? Shared leadership and so on?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Mar 23rd, 2006 at 06:52:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That is why Batasuna has been made illegal. Baltasar Garzon of Pinochet fame doggedly investigated the whole MLNV (Basque National Liberation Movement) and contended that Herri Batasuna and the newspaper Egin were ETA appendages controlled through the KAS (Koordinadora Abertzale Sozialista or Socialist Patriotic Coordinator). This happened in the late 1990's and is the reason why Batasuna has gone through so many incarnations over the past 7 or 8 years.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 23rd, 2006 at 06:59:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In this process it's going to be invaluable to have you along pointing out parallels and differences with the Ulster process.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 23rd, 2006 at 06:48:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Some of the same people are involved:

Fr Alec Reid of Belfast, who was a key figure in the Irish peace process and who was a witness to IRA decommissioning, confirmed yesterday to the BBC that he had assisted in discussions leading to Eta's statement.

Sinn Féin president Gerry Adams told a press conference in Belfast yesterday afternoon that "Eta's announcement provides all sides to the conflict with an opportunity of historic proportions.
(Irish Times)

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Mar 23rd, 2006 at 06:50:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
By the way, in the ABC headline The gang announces a «ceasefire» within hours of Catalonia being declared «a nation», the use of gang is entirely appropriate. Notice the non-sequitur of mentioning ETA's truce right next to the approval of the Catalan statute by the Parliament's constitutional committe.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 23rd, 2006 at 06:42:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And notice the scare quotes around "truce".

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 23rd, 2006 at 06:43:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If you read spanish, here is a comprehensive dossier put together by El Pais.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 23rd, 2006 at 06:17:40 AM EST
ETA's statement now translated for your kind deconstructions.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 23rd, 2006 at 10:35:13 AM EST
Really, really.. the ABC non-sequitur is the best to deconstruct as you say.

Catalonia has not been declared a nation in the new statute. The statute says in the preliminaries (Not binding article) that the parlament of Catalonia defines the history and traditions of Catalonia as a nation and that in any case, the Spanish Constituion defines this reality as a nationality. So Catalonia is not a nation. Catalonia is a nationality as a way to accept that the catalan parlament calls itself a nation.

It is frankly the exact middle point, the perfect equilibrium that makes the mildly nationalists, the open spaniards and most of the catalan happy (and nobody completely happy). Cosntitutional and with an broad acceptance of the differences in symbolic appreciation. It is frankly a wonderful preliminary.

This means that this catalan statute should be inmediately linked with something bad...just in case the spaniards would read it and like it. In this way nobody would read anything.. just Catalonia is a nation...

Another important deconstruction is to start playing with the future symbols of Euskadi. Euskadi has right now a confederation structure on taxes and spending and almost federalistic statue on competences7attribution of governance. The future changes on the new statute of Euskadi will be basically about identity symbolism (maybe also making it a little bit more federal in some areas). So attacking the catalan statute is a way to say: watch out!!! if you are giving the "nation" symbol to Euskadi you are basically paying a political price...

And this will be the word from the right: political price for peace...Zapatero will be guilty of paying apolitical price for peace....

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Thu Mar 23rd, 2006 at 03:18:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Two comments: linking ETA's truce with the estatut has been the position of Jaime Mayor Oreja (vice-chairman of the EPP parliamentary group in teh EP, former Interior Minister and also former leader of the Basque PP—it is illustrative of the Aznarite thinking that they thought it would be a good idea to run the man in charge of anti-terrorism as their candidate for Lehendakari [Basque president]) and of Maria San Gil (current leader of the Basque PP).

Also, today Zapatero was in Brussels with the other heads of State or Government to celebrate the 20th anniversary of Spain and Portugal's accession (see elsewhere in this thread), and he received the unanimous support of the Council of the EU. However, there was also this PP-inspired jab:
El Pais: Chirac: "La esperanza de España es la esperanza de Europa" (23-03-2006)

...
Before the start of the European Council the [national] leaders belonging to the European People's Party (PPE) have approved, on their part, a resolution in which they demanded that the "permanent ceasefire" announced by the terrorist band be confirmed by deeds and have set four conditions. According to the PPE, the group's announcement can only be consolidated with the unconditional surrender of their weapons, the final dissolution of ETA, an express rejection of violence and intimidation, and asking for the victims' forgiveness. The declaration has been supported, among others, by Germany's chancellor Angela Merkel, and the prime Ministers Schüssel (Austria), Jan-Peter Balkenende (Holland) and Silvio Berlusconi (Italy).
So now the PPE puts conditions on Zapatero's futures actions. That's some "support".

Yesterday, the leader of the PPE in the European Parliament (Hans Gert Poettering, German) made some favourable remarks that were immediately contradicted by one of the Vice-Presidents of the EP, Aleix Vidal-Quadras from Spain. Now the EPP has fallen in line with the Aznarists.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 23rd, 2006 at 03:58:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Dear Leaders: fuck off and get out of the fucking way.

Christos. Who let's these idiots do or support anything? I'm quite sure there are enough people in Spain to make demands and counter-demands without the help of foreign leaders.

Public statements of support for a peace process are what they're for, together with whatever quiet support they can provide. Fools, fool and more fools.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Mar 23rd, 2006 at 05:48:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Why the outrage? The EPP has long functioned as mutual support organisation for Europe's right-zingers.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Mar 23rd, 2006 at 06:05:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Why the outrage? Because the PP is going to do their worst to trainwreck the peace process, and the EPP has shown their complicity already on day 2. And the ceasefire is not even in force yet.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 23rd, 2006 at 06:10:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Because enough of this crap will get people killed again. Part of the trick here is to make the experience of denouncing violence a pleasant one for the bad guys as far as you can - you need to bring their supporters along so that the few hard-liners who will eventually splinter off into the Peoples Popular Front don't have any support. That's been done pretty well in the North, to the extent that the other group is the one feeling put upon now. I don't think there is another side, outside of the state security forces, in the Basque set-up?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Mar 23rd, 2006 at 06:39:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There hasn't been anti-eta paramilitary activity since the early 1980's (See my part-diary on State terrorism in Democratic Spain).

Colman, do you remember this, however?

El Pais: An association chaired by a PP cadre demands "filling the streets with resisting patriots"
"it will be necessary to fill the streets of Spain with resisting compatriots and that they do not resign themselves (...) There's no turning back. Tomorrow will be late". In an almost warlike tone and referring constantly to the reform of the Catalan Statute, Santiago Abascal, chairman of the Nuevas Generaciones (New Generations) of the PP in the Basque Country, presented yesterday the Foundation for the Defence of the Spanish Nation, not yet registered aas such, which he himself heads. The Ministry of Culture has rejected their application to be constituted as a Foundation on the grounds that its objectives coincide with those of the Ministry of Defence. For the moment, they are registered as an association.
This is from January 27, in the context of the Catalan Statute. But this guy is a prominent yong gun in the Basque PP.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Mar 24th, 2006 at 05:04:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The PP doesn't want peace, they want victory. They are ideological heirs to the Nationalist side in the civil war. (See this old comment of mine)

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Mar 24th, 2006 at 05:07:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The EPP is a sorry excuse for a trans-national party. They have no principles.

The Basque Nationalist Party (PNV) is more of a Christian-Democrat party than the PP is, but the PP successfully lobbied the rest of the EPP to keep the PNV out.

Here they are at it again, putting their foot in their mouth at the behest of the PP.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 23rd, 2006 at 06:07:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sorry, Chirac said "Spain's hope is Europe's hope".

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 23rd, 2006 at 06:04:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
El Pais: Zapatero thanks his European partners for their support "for peace in Spain" (23-03-2006)
Durão Barroso asserts that the EU will follow "attentively" ETA's truce

In Europe the "permanent ceasefire" announced by ETA was talked about today. During an event in the European Parliament to celebrate the 20th anniversary of the accession of Spain and Portugal to the EU, the president of the [Spanish] government [PM], José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero, has assured that "Europa is peace and this must reach its last corners" and has thanked his partners for "their support for peace".

Zapatero, who received an ovation by the event's attendees, has recalled, visibly moved, that "Europa is our home" since "they allowe us to be free and we could think for ourselves and knew where our place was".



A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 23rd, 2006 at 11:25:50 AM EST
RFI did a review of the French press this morning (in French). Liberation front paged with "ETA, the general truce: The Basque separatist movement has declared a "permanent" cease fire, starting tomorrow, opening the road to a dialogue with the Spanish government. Madrid proceeds with caution". Other papers mention the news but it seems the front-page headlines of print editions of many have more on the continued saga of the CPE than on ETA. Le Figaro has a short piece on it's front page, Le monde does not mention it on the front page and both headline on the CPE. For French readers Le Monde's latest online article on ETA is here. The more local Sud Ouest paper headlines with the ETA cease fire on their web site (I don't have access to the print version). Le Journal du Pays Basque, affiliated with the Gara  newspaper, headlines with "ETA Cease fire" and an article on "'a great hope for peace' for Paris and Madrid".

BTW just FYI for anyone interested one source for some world newspaper front pages is the news museum.

by Alexandra in WMass (alexandra_wmass[a|t]yahoo[d|o|t]fr) on Thu Mar 23rd, 2006 at 12:11:24 PM EST
Thanks for this.

The Basque separatists like to treat Spain and France on an equal footing in their rhetoric because they'd like to get the French Basque provinces (now inside the département of Pyrenées Atlantiques), but the French government will obviously not bite.

They also want Navarra. The Navarran regional president reacted to the ceasefire by saying it was great news but that "Navarra must not be a token of exchange".

Lots of hope, but ETA is also in for some disappointment. Could be called 'a reality check', too.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 23rd, 2006 at 12:21:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Btw, did you know that the expression "de France et de Navarre" is still employed today, quite commonly even? ("of France and of Navarre", to refer to an administrative whole)

I heard it again the other day in parliament when watching the DADVSI debates! Some député was saying something like: "nowhere on the territory of France and of Navarre will anyone be able to make private copies".

I believe it comes from around the time when Navarr(e/a) was an independent kingdom and was ruled jointly with France by Henri III (de Navarre).

by Alex in Toulouse on Thu Mar 23rd, 2006 at 12:34:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Henri IV sorry
I think it stuck up to the revolution (ie. Louis XIV an co were all King of France and of Navarre)
by Alex in Toulouse on Thu Mar 23rd, 2006 at 12:35:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, I believe Baisse-Navarre is part of France, isn't it? Otherwise, DADVSI is going to get France into even more international legal trouble ;-)

Believe it or not, I only learnt that the (protestant) King of Navarre was King of France in the 17th century when I saw La Reine Margot years ago.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 23rd, 2006 at 12:37:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I fully believe you, in fact I only corrected myself here above when I remembered that Daniel Auteuil was Henry IV and not III, in that movie.

The expression indeed comes from Henry IV as I checked on Wikipedia and saw that the title "King of France and of Navarre" starts with him and indeed stays up to the revolution.

I just find it incredible that it's still used today. You stumble upon it here and there.

I mean it wouldn't even be a valid expression if Navarre was only in France, as that would make it redundant. And since Navarre is not only in France, it makes the expression somewhat imperialistic!

by Alex in Toulouse on Thu Mar 23rd, 2006 at 12:44:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, he was Henri III de Navarre et IV de France.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 23rd, 2006 at 12:52:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ahhh so I get a B+!

I googled the exact expression "de France et de Navarre" and it returned 228 000 hits:

(a bunch of historical hits) and hits such as...

"list of hotels of France and of Navarre"
"librarians of France and of Navarre"
"message to islamists of France and of Navarre"

etc etc

Basically it's still used outside of purely historical applications.

by Alex in Toulouse on Thu Mar 23rd, 2006 at 12:57:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Time to take this diary and that one off the front page?

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Mar 26th, 2006 at 01:26:11 PM EST


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