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Hear the drums beating...

by Metatone Tue Mar 7th, 2006 at 02:32:32 PM EST

One of the great frustrations for me in the current Iran saga is watching the same PR tactics as in the run up to the invasion of Iraq.

The worst part is, until the invasion occurs, it is impossible to convince a lot of people that the PR really is a an organized campaign.

However, at this moment it seems to be really ramping up so I thought making the odd note might be useful:

Promoted by Colman


Courtesy of Jerome:

WSJ

Is the Continent willing to fight for anything, besides a welfare check?

By contrast, Iran, ostensibly a democracy but in reality a religious tyranny, possesses a character trait that is almost nonexistent in modern Europe: Iranians, almost exclusively Shiite, are willing to suffer. This quality is deeply rooted in their religion. Ashura, one of the central Shiite rituals that marks the death of Imam Hussain at the Battle of Karbala in 680, celebrates flagellation, blood, pain. As Steven Vincent, the remarkable American journalist who tragically was murdered last August in Iraq, observed in his book "In the Red Zone": "Eight-foot long white silk flags depicting crossed sword, the blades oozing with blood . . . pictures of severed hands, severed heads,  . . a fountain in front of Meshed Ali spraying geysers of blood-red liquid. . . . bloody swords flashing over the heads of milling crowds . . . men with blood-soaked bandages wrapped around their heads to stanch the bleeding from self-inflicted wounds . . . endless posters of the slaughtered innocents. This is an orgy of death imagery, I thought."

and then there is this interesting meta-article:

UK : Guardian : Column : Simon Tisdall

Drumbeat sounds familiar

George Bush's explanation of his volte-face over a proposed Iran-India gas pipeline project appeared slightly disingenuous. "Our beef with Iran is not the pipeline," the US president said on Saturday after withdrawing previous objections and giving the go-ahead to Washington's new friends in Delhi. "Our beef with Iran is the fact that they want to develop a nuclear weapon."

But US fears about Iranian nukes, discussed in Vienna yesterday, are hardly the whole story. Washington is compiling a dossier of grievances against Tehran similar in scope and seriousness to the pre-war charge-sheet against Iraq. Other complaints include Iranian meddling in Iraq, support for Hamas in Palestine and Hizbullah in Lebanon, and human rights abuses.

...

Official Washington's quickening drumbeat of hostility is beginning to recall political offensives against Libya's Muammar Gadafy, Panama's Manuel Noriega and Saddam Hussein, which all ended in violence. Rightwing American media are urging action, deeming Iran "an intolerable threat" that is the "central crisis of the Bush presidency".

As was the case with Iraq, administration tub-thumping is influencing public opinion - notwithstanding subsequent debunking of many of its Iraq claims. Polls suggest many Americans are now convinced Iran is the new public enemy No 1. Forty-seven percent told Zogby International they favoured military action to halt its nuclear activities.

Iran is a potentially dangerous country, especially in about 5 years, as we have discussed in the debate box. But it really looks like the PR offensive is lining up around this year, in contrast to the timelines discussed on this site. I find this to be a worrying development, all to paralleling the rush to war in Iraq.

Display:
Thought provoking diary on an important topic.
Well done Metatone.

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Tue Mar 7th, 2006 at 10:39:23 AM EST
I'd accuse you of flattery, Agnes, but I realised I have nothing you want, so why would you flatter me?  :-)
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Tue Mar 7th, 2006 at 10:43:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As you may have noticed, I am too busy channelling what I really think to have the time to express things I do not mean. Hypocrisy does not belong to my numerous character flaws.
I enjoy your posts and diaries, it's as simple as that.


When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Tue Mar 7th, 2006 at 10:52:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thankyou.
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Tue Mar 7th, 2006 at 11:27:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The most vicious thing, I think, is that the drums have been going on for so long that those that talk about it are accused of crying wolf. There have been already several cases of dates announced with much fanfare by credible sources like Seymour Hersh that turned out to be wrong that any such announcement is now treated with tired contempt.

Was it done on purpose? i.e. did people in position to know voluntarily send false signals of an incoming attack to discredit critics and then go for it for real? Or were there real plans to go for it that were shelved (temporarily?) as others prevailed in internal battles?

It's impossible to know. What's certain is this:

  • some people in this administration want to attack Iran;
  • it is certainly not beyond Bushco to take such a decision;
  • it cannot be done considering how damaged the US Army is now;
  • it would fail, whether in the aerial bombing version, or in any invasion scenario;
  • it would be a disaster several orders of magnitude worse than Iraq


In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Mar 7th, 2006 at 12:20:45 PM EST
I agree with the list. Can we add:

* And Ahmadinejad appears to want it to happen?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Mar 7th, 2006 at 12:23:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Interesting, so what does it say about an idea if both Bush and Ahmadinejad like it?
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Tue Mar 7th, 2006 at 12:45:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
To me it says the idea stinks ;)

More seriously, it means there is definitely a risk. The US is in no position to attack, but that doesn't mean...

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Mar 7th, 2006 at 12:57:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The US is in no position to attack, but that doesn't mean...
If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles.  If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle. — Sun Tzu, The Art of War III.18.


A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Mar 7th, 2006 at 01:36:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
To fight the bug, we must understand the bug
by Alex in Toulouse on Tue Mar 7th, 2006 at 02:53:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'll stick my neck out here (and likely be proved wrong!) (but that's the danger of prediction, as we all know) but I think that the volume of the drums really is rising more than before. And I think this is significant. Despite everything we say about the Bush government, it likes to stir up it's base in support of actions it takes.

Hersh and others have had suspicions/evidence that something was going on, information from sources.

But this is, to me something different, watching the PR volume is a like watching a buildup of troops, or logistic supplies to an airfield.

PR is part of war in a modern democracy and there is a fever pitch that governments aim to reach before they launch attacks. I might be reading the volume wrong (it's not an exact science) but I would certainly contend that it is reaching a more widespread level than before. Serious efforts are being made to convince "right thinking people" that not only is Iran dangerous, but needs to be attacked.

It is the breadth of the PR attempt that is significant to me. As explanation, it is true Cheney, Bolton et al. have been jaw-jaw in favour of war-war with Iran for years. It's getting more serious when the smaller parts of the noise machine are activated, e.g. "terrorism analysts" finding Iran links with attacks previously allocated to AQ, the creation of a double bluff around the IAEA report (it only matters if it gets the right result) and lots of statements from minor officials in a shorter period of time. This is a PR effort of planning and design, as Tisdall suggests and that to me is a significant marker...

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Tue Mar 7th, 2006 at 01:11:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Seymour Hersh's article have been proven to be quite correct despite persistent internet rumours of him being in error.

The article in question is "Coming Wars"
http://www.newyorker.com/printables/fact/050124fa_fact

The article that really started discussion of possible war against Iran was written in early 2005 that Bush regime had Iran on its bomb sights and that there were US special forces operating in Iran looking for possible targets. So far I've seen nothing that would show this to be in error, after all, it is standard military SOP.

The "June 2005" comes from Scott Ritter who stated that Bush administration had pretty much signed off prepartions for military strikes and that these preparations would be complete by June 2005. This caused shit strom in internet but what Ritter had actually said was that preparations would be ready by June 2005 (not that the attack data would be in June 2005).

Ritter later rewrote what he had means in March 2005 as following: "Whether this attack takes place in June 2005, when the Pentagon has been instructed to be ready, or at a later date, once all other preparations have been made, is really the only question that remains to be answered."

This article was in:
http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0330-31.htm

Again there is nothing particularly strange in such lead times. No one starts war without throughout preparations (if at all possible) and serious planning to Iraq operation started just few months after end of Afganistan invasion. However, having preparations ready (air fields constructed, rotation of planes planned and munitions dumps built-up) does not mean military jumps up immediately. It does mean it has high degree of readiness for such things and it fully expects it to happen. The ultimate authority lies with political leaders who must decide when.

Thus I believe both authors are correct. US is certainly updating its war plans in MiddleEast and Iran is the (unnamed) target. US certainly has been building up its military capability and upgrading its bases throughout 2005 in region.

However, there are few telltale signs of impeding air attack:

-Movement of several US carriers to region (or not telling where they are as they are moving about)

-Movement of air defense assets to Istrael and neighbouring countries for routine exercises (at the same time).

-Movement of B-1 and B-52 bombers in larger quantities to Diego Garcia.

-Sudden alert of troops of various NATO armies to protect US bases in Europe. This usually means guarding housing blocks of dependents.

-Pizza indicator in Pentagon (a lot more troopers are staying longer making final calculations and preparations and they consume large amounts of pizza during long nights).

-US Air Force bomb factories start to make their wares around the clock.

There are, ofcourse, other measures too but these are probably most obvious ones...

by Nikita on Wed Mar 8th, 2006 at 09:19:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think the indicators cited are largely incorrect.

Firstly, Diego Garcia is UK sovereign territory and there is no way that the US will have permission to indulge in anything that has the sniff of pre-emptive illegality; the Blair administration is not out of the woods with the British public over Iraq, and I doubt that they could survive collusion in another illegal venture.

Look for far more prosaic indicators - a hefty spike in oil futures without any particular objective referent for the shift in market sentiment, coupled with all major stock indices tumbling and gold hitting new highs. There will also be at least one very high profile US military brass resignation in the run-up to any attack.

As things stand, there are no signs of US military preparations for an imminent attack, largely because there is no coherent military solution to the Iran nuclear issue, and the comeback from bombing has the potential to fracture the US's position in the Persian Gulf region as well as in Iraq.

It's worth noting that whilst the threats from Rumsfeld, Cheney and ( depending on who he's talking to ) Bolton are loud, they are little more than psychological warfare at this stage. The issue is eventually going to go to the UNSC and some kind of deal will get tabled - the interesting point is whether the US has worked out what it is prepared to forego for the sake of an agreement, or whether the Bush administration hawks are playing a rearguard action to forestall the possibility of the resumption of formal relations between Iran and the US.

by londanium on Thu Mar 9th, 2006 at 06:52:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
of attacking Iran?

The Cabal can try playing the war drums again, and there might even be a popularity bounce if they do.

But there's no clear and present danger, no Saddam equivalent, no direct threat to the US, and a weighty legacy of people in the US saying 'Won't get fooled again.'

So if they do go ahead with the war, it's likely to backfire horribly. Using ground forces is a non-starter when there aren't any. And a nuke first strike against a country that doesn't have them won't make the US popular, will likely provoke sanctions, and will lead to disgust and revulsion at home.

So - no point, strategically.

Unless this is part of an obscure plot to push up oil prices. That's the only reason I can think of that makes any sense. And even then, given how precarious the Bush hold is on the US, and how unpopular high gas prices would be, I can't see it being a popular vote winner.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Mar 7th, 2006 at 01:51:36 PM EST
Well, in this diary I'm reading the entrails, observing pebbles before an avalanche...

I don't claim to know who set the avalanche off, in general.

My own personal opinion is that the intelligence indicates Iran may pose a nuclear threat about 5 years down the line. Stepping over the debate about the implications of that for now, I think that fact suggests that the drums being beaten now are not just motivated by that fact.

From this I deduce that the attack is being positioned to conveniently bolster the Republican party ahead of the 2006 Senate/House elections...

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Tue Mar 7th, 2006 at 02:23:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, that was my point - I don't think that's going to work.

With Iraq there were the famous WMD photos, presentations and speeches. There was the crafty insinuation that Saddam was responsible for 9/11. And everyone knew that Saddam was a bad man who tortured people and had gassed the Kurds, so even if you didn't agree with the other reasons you could persuade yourself on that basis.

Hence - popular support. Mostly.

This time, if the drums are beating, they're playing a very different tune, and it's not nearly as coherent and carefully arranged. Some vague hand-waving sense that Iran is a threat isn't going to give more than 10-20% of boost. And once the (literal?) fall-out starts happening, that's going to drop like a stone.

So if the plan is to push for that war-bounce, I don't think that's going to happen. There will be some, but it may be smaller than everyone expects.

The only thing that would change this would be a 9/11 style attack that could be pinned on Iran. I could be wrong, but I don't see that happening - at least not unless the Cabal is insane enough to nuke one of its own cities to create a pretext.  

politically that would certainly be expedient enough for them. I'm naive enough to believe they wouldn't go that for. But who knows?

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Mar 7th, 2006 at 02:46:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There are now IAEA reports, and right-wing spin above it, and last year already there were photos of Iranian nuclear sites. There are a lots of presentations and speeches. There is the crafty insinuation that Iran helps al-Qaida and the Iraqi resistance at the same time, as well as suggestions that certain attacks weren't really Al-Qaida but Iran's. (In the latter, they get help from such heroes of the Democratic side as ex-CIA-agent Robert Baer.) Also everyone knows that the Iranian regime has a history of supporting terrorism, terrorising their own people, denying the Holocaust and so on - what's more, you can count on it that the old Reagan-era spin version that Halabja was really the Iranian's work will resurface. And note that Dubya is already talking just like in the case of Saddam: he talks about an Iranian development of nuclear weapons as fact.

And once the (literal?) fall-out starts happening, that's going to drop like a stone.

If that happens after November 2: no problem. Two years later, voters will forget like about Iraq.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Mar 7th, 2006 at 02:58:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think you overestimate the US electorate. You, like I live in the UK, where Iraq is definitely a millstone for Tony. The US is a different kettle of fish, especially if the action is timed right. There's a different kind of affection for the military to that which exists in the UK.
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Tue Mar 7th, 2006 at 03:15:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yeah, but that affection, while overwhelming when we prepared for war, began to fade quickly when our kids kept coming home in body bags long after Bush declared Mission Accomplished.  Even the people I know who voted for Bush want an exit plan yesterday so we can get out of this war.  I'm not sure military families trust Bush with their kids as easily as they did a few years ago.

And our military is stretched so thin... NO ONE wants a draft.

If I had to guess, what we're seeing is a whackjob administration on auto-pilot and not a popular desire for war.  

Funny enough, I went looking for this:

and found this:


Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

by p------- on Tue Mar 7th, 2006 at 03:43:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If I had to guess, what we're seeing is a whackjob administration on auto-pilot and not a popular desire for war.

Yep.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Mar 7th, 2006 at 04:01:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But there's no clear and present danger, no Saddam equivalent, no direct threat to the US, and a weighty legacy of people in the US saying 'Won't get fooled again.'

There was no clear and present danger, Saddam was no Hitler equivalent but a contained tinpot dictator, there was no direct threat or even indirect to the US, and check the latest polls on Iran before you think of trusting the long memory of US public opinion.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Mar 7th, 2006 at 02:51:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Okay, but no one has pulled out the 15 minutes line yet, so to me the way the danger (if there is a danger) is being presented makes it much more hypothetical. So I still don't think it can stick in the same way that the Saddam campaign was made to look like an immediate threat.

This is PR-based instinct, and I could easily be proved wrong. But it just doesn't feel to me like the same level of persistent hysteria would be possible again, without another inciting incident.

The last couple of polls I could find showed decreasing support - 47% now (Zogby) and 57% (LA Times/Bloomberg) three weeks ago.

Compare this with 70% or so support just before the Iraq adventure. That's a lot of percentage points to gain, and a lot to lose if Iraq start turning into another disaster - which I'd guess it inevitably will.

Also, support for Iraq dropped very sharply immediately after the event. So for any political boost the invasion would have to be timed for Sept/October. And there's plenty of time for further disasters - Fitzgerald, another Katrina, another Dubai deal, or even some real terrorism - to unsettle everything before then.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Mar 7th, 2006 at 03:33:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Do you really mean that Iraq turning into a disaster is hypothetical?</snark>

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Mar 7th, 2006 at 03:51:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Iraq turned into a diaster as soon as Bakr resigned and Saddam took it over fully in 1979.

I meant that the threat from Iran still looks hypothetical. I'm not sure that Fox is up to explaining hypothetical. ;-)

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Mar 7th, 2006 at 04:12:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Okay, but no one has pulled out the 15 minutes line yet

Well, the 45 minutes claim was for the UK audience, not the US. For the latter, mushroom clouds in two years were 'convincing' enough. Meanwhile, we already had false claims regarding highly-enriched uranium particles and beryllium imports by Iran, and there are the spin and speculations based on the implosion bomb design Iran got from Khan in 1987 and now showed to the UN.

The last couple of polls I could find showed decreasing support -  47% now (Zogby) and 57% (LA Times/Bloomberg) three weeks ago.

Regarding polls, you can check most of them here (but they missed the Zogby poll).

As the Zogby poll was made Jan 27-Mar 1, the LA Times/Bloomberg Jan 22-25, and another poll with similar question by Pew: Jan 23-26, and these were three different pollsters with threee different methodologies and question wordings, you can't conclude a pattern from these. But worth to note: the Pew poll (at the same time as the LAT/Bl one) showed 42% support for US military action; and in the Zogby poll, the 47% corresponds to unilateral US action - with allies, the support is 64%, with UN support, 63%.

But, let's remember that during the PR offensive before the Iraq war, for long the majority expressed support for more diplomacy, but then swung behind the Prez only in the last few weeks/days. So what I was thinking about was numbers for threat perceptions. And there, In the latest poll (CBS Feb 22-26), 75% are convinced that Iran is a threat to the USA, and support for military action now is already at 20% - in Gallup's poll two weeks earlier it was half of that.

In that poll, the 69% concerned that the Bush admin could resort to military means 'too early' (which BTW is a loaded question - it assumes the necessity of intervention sometime in the future, it assumes there is a threat) would appear an important factor - had there not been 67% who are (also) concerned of the opposite - the Bushies not doing enough against the "threat". Also read what the population assumes a nuclear-armed Iran would do - the possibility of return strikes (which make an Iranian first strike unlikely) and nukes as deterrence was almost completely erased from public consciousness.

Also look at the numbers in the Jan 24-5 Fox poll: from October to January, those convinced that Iran has a nuclear weapons program rose from 57% to 68%.

So for any political boost the invasion would have to be timed for Sept/October.

Could be - maybe we don't really disagree just were thinking about different timescales? For me it feels like autumn 2002, not yet February or early March 2003.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Mar 8th, 2006 at 04:02:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah, I missed this. The Feb 22-26 CBS poll on Iraq shows the ratio of those believing Saddam was involved in 9/11 dropping to a record low - 29%... while another 14% are unsure...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Mar 8th, 2006 at 04:09:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Does this correlate with an increase in those who believe it was Iran that was involved in 9/11?

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Mar 8th, 2006 at 04:57:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Good question

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Mar 8th, 2006 at 05:35:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Any poll numbers on the last?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Mar 8th, 2006 at 05:58:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No. But Colman may have seen some.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Mar 8th, 2006 at 06:02:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, the only certain consequence of a war with Iran, whatever its form, is higher oil prices. and when I say higher, I mean at least an additional zero on the right.

That could be enough to justify it. Buy Exxon shares...

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Mar 7th, 2006 at 04:59:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, the drums beat and I watch in confusion. Can they really be this crazy? Or is this some sort of mad-man theory? But the Iranian leadership has nothing to gain by humbling themselves, so what can the Bush administration hope to win by messing with them?

Is it just about raising oilprices? But that is so, so greedy and short-sighted and stupid, beyond even my cynicism. And that is of course exactly what we have have come to expect from the Bush administration.

I need more then the louder and louder drums. Is there no other signs one could watch, like military buildup or supplies? But how to differentiate between military and equipment needed in Iraq and Afghanistan and the same for Iran? Is there some key element that could be watched? If there is, given the size of the internet and the interest of this question there should be somebody who is watching it to. But who?

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Tue Mar 7th, 2006 at 03:27:54 PM EST
What do they hope to win?  

Well, that's the million dollar question.  And since I can't come up with a good answer, I'm beginning to suspect that perhaps this is about paranoia and not personal gain.  Isn't that what happens to evil dictators?  Everyone has nukes, everyone wants to nuke them, must attack them before they attack us, must flex our muscle, must remain in constant state of war.  And when the proles start to catch on, time to up the ante and make them feel even less safe and more willing to give up their freedoms.  A viscious cycle whereby they respond to every possible threat with a disproportionate amount of "self defense."  Classic paranoia.  

Folks, this is not about Iran.  I don't think...

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

by p------- on Tue Mar 7th, 2006 at 04:19:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yep, here those Americans go again, running their PR machines to start a war.  I mean, like it's in the Wall Street Journal, and the Guardian! it's obviously a plot!
One of the great frustrations for me in the current Iran saga is watching the same PR tactics as in the run up to the invasion of Iraq.
Certainly those horrible American leaders are behind this because, they just want to do it:
It's impossible to know. What's certain is this:

some people in this administration want to attack Iran;
it is certainly not beyond Bushco to take such a decision;

And they are such incredible idiots they don't know the consquences

it cannot be done considering how damaged the US Army is now;
it would fail, whether in the aerial bombing version, or in any invasion scenario;
it would be a disaster several orders of magnitude worse than Iraq
But wait, the American electorate would want diplomacy and an attempt to avoid war,,,wouldn't they?
I think you overestimate the US electorate.
No, they're a bunch of Christian right wing cowboys, how would they have a logical thought in their heads?  They are idiots, and just cooking this up.  It's them--the Americans, nothing to do with Iran.

A viscious cycle whereby they respond to every possible threat with a disproportionate amount of "self defense."  Classic paranoia. Folks, this is not about Iran.  I don't think...
It's clearly about those dumbass Americans and their asinine thoughts about some Iranian president wanting to wipe another country off the face of the map,,,,and coincidently in a stealth fashion developing a nuclear weapons program-wait how do we know it's a nuclear weapons program,,,it's about heating their homes.

No wait, we discussed that on ET--it looked like it was nuclear weapons.

Oh, but wait, an EU-3 group is also concerned,,,and the Israeli's.  Shut up and forget the Israeli's, a bunch of terroists after all, who don't deserve a state anyway--what happened to that idea to boycott Israel anyway?

A fitting summary to Gnomemoot, don't you think?

by wchurchill on Wed Mar 8th, 2006 at 03:08:50 AM EST
Everything your said was right. </snark>

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Mar 8th, 2006 at 04:11:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
They are idiots, and just cooking this up.

Well, 44% of them certainly are. And it took certainly a long time for another 20% to drop the notion that Saddam was behind 9/11 despite zero evidence to support that...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Mar 8th, 2006 at 04:14:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
who invaded Iraq again? And that went swimmingly, as the invaders predicted, right? And public support was pretty strong, right?

Do you actually contest any of my 5 points? Are you saying any one of these?

  • noone in Washington - and close to power - wants to attack Iran, or
  • the Bush administration will never attack Iran, or
  • the US Army is fit for an attack on Iran, or
  • an attack on Iran would be successful, or
  • an attack on Iran would not have much worse consequences than that on Iraq?

I won't be holding my breath.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Mar 8th, 2006 at 05:35:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, I actually do contest some of your five points.  So if you're holding your breathe, respirez (?  horrible French).  

I find these attacks on people's motives to be irritating.  

What's certain is this:
some people in this administration want to attack Iran;
it is certainly not beyond Bushco to take such a decision.
Especially when there are very clear policy arguments that explain their actions.  So why don't you debate on policy?  After hours of people time and effort on Gnomemoot 0 trying to debate and understand the scientific facts, and then the alternative pathways available to the world community, your reaction is basically "Oh those bozo's in Washington just want to kill some people, including some of their own youth, let's see,,,who should we kill?  I know, let's do the Iranians."  

Let's ignore a number of facts, like a non-proliferation treaty that Iran is in the process of violating.  (How about arguing that there are some inequities in this treaty?--Nah, let's just accuse "some" Americans of being bloodthirsty killers.)  

Should you discuss at all that Americans may believe Iran is a real threat?  Nah, they're idiots for believing all that rubbish about "blowing Israel off the face of the map".

Should you wonder about why Iran hid from world view, in violation of the above treaty, steps they are taking toward nuclear weapons?

Should you think a little about what the implication is on Israel if a country that they believe wants to wipe them out, and therefore what the larger implication is on the Middle East?  Like might Israel attack Iranian nuclear reactors like in Iraq--yes much more difficult for success.  But just what do you think a country that has lived a holocaust, right there in Europe I might add--close enough to your ancestors time, that one might think one would have a very good gut feel about what might happen--might do when threatened in this way?

As to the diplomatic steps and partnering with EU-3, Russia and others that also see this threat, is it just possible that Americans want a non-violent solution?  Nope, let's ignore that one too--it's all a pretense.  They just want to start a war and make themselves feel good, the murdering sob's!  And certainly it is not beyond Bushco to support that--they can't support this diplomatic effort--"I, Jerome, know their motives,,,,,I know them for what they are"

As to this

it cannot be done considering how damaged the US Army is now;
it would fail, whether in the aerial bombing version, or in any invasion scenario;
it would be a disaster several orders of magnitude worse than Iraq
this is either a good argument as to why the Americans, bloodthirsty lot that they are, would step back from the immediate attack plan being outlined in this diary,,,,and wait a few years to kill more people.  Or, it's an argument that the cowboy idiots don't understand these brilliant insights, and are going to plunge ahead to Armeggedon anyway.  

I just can't imagine why I had the nerve to take exception to any of your comments, Jerome.

by wchurchill on Wed Mar 8th, 2006 at 01:42:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
the "horrible French" comment was about my feeble attempt to use a French word.
by wchurchill on Wed Mar 8th, 2006 at 02:50:38 PM EST
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It's clearly about those dumbass Americans and their asinine thoughts

Just to be clear, I am American.  It's not dumbass Americans, it's dumbass Bush.Co I was accusing of paranoia...

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

by p------- on Wed Mar 8th, 2006 at 08:42:43 AM EST
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It's clearly about those dumbass Americans and their asinine thoughts about some Iranian president wanting to wipe another country off the face of the map
It's actually the Americans and not the Iranians that have a recent history of destroying countries (granted, it was in order to save them, but still).

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Mar 8th, 2006 at 08:55:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
well that should tick a few people off.
by wchurchill on Wed Mar 8th, 2006 at 03:16:32 AM EST
but its off my chest.
by wchurchill on Wed Mar 8th, 2006 at 03:17:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Do you deny the similarities between the two processes? I can't remember: do you think the invasion of Iraq was a good thing?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Mar 8th, 2006 at 04:15:43 AM EST
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  1.  There is a huge difference in timing between Iran and Iraq.  As, I think, we have agreed in Gnomemoot 0, 5 years is the outward boundary on when Iran could have nuclear weapons.  So there is plenty of time for discussions, diplomacy, and outcomes very different than a war.
  2.  There is a concerted effort between multiple parties, in fact led by parties other than the US, to drive a process with Iran, and get a resolution.  The parties are trying to get the ideal outcome of meeting Iran's needs for peaceful nuclear power, with having enrichment facilities to create nuclear power.  Buth then they realize and are discussing that diplomacy without carrots and sticks is sometimes not successful.  And the community is moving down that road together. As compared to Iraq, where what diplomacy there was, was in a pre 9/11 environment.  Any political organizations that issues 17 resolutions to a rogue regime, and allows those resolutions to be ignored, is feckless.  But admittedly, it was just a different period of history,,,,,it seemed ludicrous and made the UN look like a sham,,,,but it seemingly kept Iraq under control without taking unpleasent actions.
  3.  In fact while there is consensus on a process today, there was none on Iraq.  The consensus in Iraq seemed had in reality crumbled.  My memory may be wrong here, but I believe France and Russia were arguing for lifting the embargoes.  So in general, the period of time passing while the UN did nothing, led to a breakdown of consensus over Iraq.  
  4.  IMHO, , for the US administration and a large part of the American public, faith in the UN had been shattered.  There were a series of UN failures that seemed to underline that the UN could not be counted on.  (Note I'm not saying every American felt this way,,,but I believe there was a consensus in the country--IMO.)  The lack of follow through on all of these Iraqi resolutions; the heading up of the UN Human Rights Commission,,,wasn't it being passed from Libya to Iraq???   As compared to today, IMHO, there is some hope in the US that the combined diplomacy, some initial steps toward UN reform, the acceptance of the Volker report,,,,,and more, that the UN can be a more effective body.

Iraq was a mistake in timing on the part of the US.  The troops were put in too early, IMHO,,,,and that ended up putting an artificial pressure on the US to act.  A pressure that would not have been there, had that not been hundreds of thousands of troops in place--you really had to withdraw or attack.  Bush and his cronies should have forseen that and worked the consensus building harder.  (And of course there have been multiple other mistakes like underestimating the resistance in Iraq).  But that is so easy to say in retrospect, rather than in real time.  Better thinking in the US could have changed the process.  But a more effective UN, IMO, could have done the same.
by wchurchill on Wed Mar 8th, 2006 at 12:58:37 PM EST
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