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Villepin a cinder, Chirac toast?

by afew Wed May 10th, 2006 at 11:20:08 AM EST

from the diaries, with small format edit -- Jérôme

After a day or so's rest, L'Affaire Clearstream has blown up again, with revelations in today's Canard enchaîné that place Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin on the skids and President Chirac, to quote his own words, dans la merde.

I originally meant to try to explain the Clearstream Affairs (there are two of them), but it's a complicated story. If you have a few hours and a stock of aspirin to spare, Wikipedia on Clearstream will give you something to chew on. (Chew chew chew...)


What matters is this: two years ago, a smear job was launched on (at least) Nicolas Sarkozy, wannabe president of France and enemy of Villepin and Chirac. The smear didn't stick, an investigation showed it was a put-up job, and a new investigation began to identify who was behind it. Now, as revelation succeeds revelation, it is becoming increasingly difficult for Villepin to deny his implication in launching the smear.

What is likely to happen as a result?

For one thing, Villepin himself is one of the very last people who believes he's going to stay on as Prime Minister. Pretty much everyone else is betting on who will take his place. The Canard reports (unsourced, but the Canard can be trusted) Chirac as saying:

"Si on continue à s'enfoncer dans la merde, la fin du quinquennat pourrait être compromise"

If we keep on sinking into the shit, the end of (my) mandate could be compromised.

To clear up the atmosphere, Villepin needs to go; but Chirac is further quoted as saying: "ce n'est pas facile d'écarter Dominique" (It's not easy to discard Dominique). Why would that be? According to the Canard, because Chirac himself has little or no moral authority left; and because, possibly, Villepin has leverage in the form of <sshhh> secrets about Chirac...

More from the Canard:

Sorti gravement brûlé de l'épreuve du CPE, Villepin est carbonisé par l'affaire Clearstream (...) Il a perdu tout crédit et il est incapable de gouverner avec efficacité. Mais (...) il s'accroche à son siège (...) fort de l'assurance de rester à Matignon...

Badly burned by the CPE ordeal, Villepin is done to a crisp by the Clearstream Affair... He has lost all credit and is incapable of governing efficiently. But... he is hanging on to his seat... confident he will stay on at Matignon...

Qui peut croire que Villepin, si intime de Chirac et depuis tant d'années, n'est pas au courant (...) des grands et petits secrets du chef de l'Etat? Et qu'il ignore tout, par exemple, de l'enquête (...) sur le compte bancaire de Chirac au Japon?

Who can believe that Villepin, so close to Chirac for so many years, is not informed about the head of state's secrets, large and small? And that he knows nothing, for example, about the inquiry into Chirac's Japonese bank account?

The Canard adds another quote from Villepin himself, dating back to just after his ill-fated advice to dissolve Parliament in 1997 :

"Le Président ne peut pas me virer. Il m'a introduit dans le saint des saints. Je sais beaucoup de choses. A l'extérieur de son système, je deviendrais une bombe à retardement."

The president can't fire me. He took me into the holy of holies. I know a lot of things. Once outside his networks, I'd become a time bomb.

Well, perhaps the time bomb will stay on. In which case, it's only a matter of time before he goes off with a bang and brings the whole edifice crashing around his ears : Villepin, the UMP, Chirac, Old Uncle Tom Cobley and all... The best outcome the left could wish for...

Either that, or Chirac prevails and persuades him to go (though what incentives Chirac has left to offer, I fail to see). What are the hot tips for new prime Minister?

  • Sarkozy hisself : Jérôme and I have already suggested Chirac might like to put him in the hot seat and destroy him before the elections. The trouble with that scenario is that Sarkozy is very free to say no (in fact, the Canard reports he already has...) It seems Sarko has, however, some lingering doubts. Vanity speaking? "I, Super-Sarko, will succeed where all others have failed"?

  • Jacques Barrot : currently EU Commissioner for Transport (see Debunking the EU official line where Fearless Leader questions Barrot in public). He would be a very safe pair of hands to conduct Chirac's precious mandate to its end. But it seems he has already indicated he would rather stay in Brussels...

  • Michèle Alliot-Marie, aka MAM, currently Defence Minister. The Canard says Chirac doesn't want her because she attacked Villepin on TV the other day (rat, sinking ship?)

  • Antoine Rufenacht : mayor of Le Havre, ran Chirac's 2002 election campaign; unassuming, second-string. The Canard quotes Chirac: "...he lacks charisma, but he has the advantage of being a Gaullist and he'll have no problems with the UMP deputies."

These are the names that are going round (openly, in the press). Rufenacht seems to be the favourite, but that may change, or new names pop up. The fun will be if it's Sarko, who will spend a year dodging Whack a Mole shots from Chirac's lot plus the left. The unfun is that, of course, it's the extreme right that is strengthening in all this.

What was that above about Chirac having a Japanese bank account? The one at the Sowa Bank, with FF 300 mn in it? (€46 mn or $58 mn). Aw, that's enough for one diary...

Display:
President Chirac, to quote his own words, [is] dans la merde.
He must be emmerdé, too.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 10:29:44 AM EST
Trying to scrape it off his shoes when it looks as if he sat in it.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 11:11:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Il m'a introduit dans le saint des saints
These French and their French-only! It sounds so much more dignified to be taken into the sancta-sanctorum.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 10:31:30 AM EST
The holy of holies is English-only ;)
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 11:15:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Jacques Barrot [...] would be a very safe pair of hands to conduct Chirac's precious mandate to its end.
Margaret Beckett has also been described as "a safe pair of hands". When you need someone ot stay out of the way of the President (or Presidential Prime Minister), put "safe pairs of hands" in important places.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 10:33:47 AM EST
Yes. Though I'd probably rate Barrot as generally competent throughout his career, (he's often been a minister), while it seems Beckett is not well considered...

The "non-entity" safe pair of whatever would be Rufenacht.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 10:49:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And Beckett has been in Blair's cabinet from the very beginning and was interim Party Leader just before Blair became it.

People are sure fond of making fun of her caravanning, but the Labour party doesn't seem to agree? What am I missing here?

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 10:56:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't really know a great deal about Beckett. The caravanning is a cheap shot against her. Should she be farting around the world in a plane to take her hols?
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 11:13:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Every single op-ed and editorial cartoon I've seen about Beckett over the past week has made a joke about caravanning.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 11:29:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The caravanning is a class jibe.

It's not an activity favoured by the upper classes that the politicos and journos imagine themselves to be.

However, Helen pointed to the debacle that Beckett has been involved with. That is a good reason to dispute that she is a safe pair of hands.

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 11:37:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The "safe pair of hands" characterisation comes from The Guardian (2003) via Wikipedia.

In the case at hand, she's a "safe pair of hand" in that she'll do nothing of her own initiative, and that's exactly what Blair watns in the Foreign Office.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 11:42:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks for the link on Beckett's work at Defra. Since I was once a mountain shepherd and sheep farmer, it makes me shudder. (As do many of the comments). So Beckett sounds like another out-and-out mindless New Labourite. "We will not tolerate that you say you cannot deliver". Gah that word "deliver"!!!
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 12:07:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Doing my best to live up to the image of the ignorant American,
How does this work?  How is the Prime Minister chosen, through election or appointment?  And assuming Chirac won't be re-elected, wouldn't Villepin be booted out with him anyway?

Sorry.  I'm not used to the President/Prime Minister thing.  In Italy & the UK, the people elect their Prime Minister, but in France they do not?  Is it more of a cabinet position?

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

by p------- on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 10:48:11 AM EST
In Italy and the UK the people elect the Parliament and the President/Queen proposes a Prime minister to it. Same thing in France.

The fact that politics is becoming "Presidentialistic" in Western Europe's parliamentary systems, and it appears as though people are electing their prime ministers is a different matte.r

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 10:52:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In Italy and the UK the people elect the Parliament and the President/Queen proposes a Prime minister to it

Ok, pretend for one second that you are explaining this to an alien who's just arrived on earth...

I thought the people of Italy just elected Prodi to be the Prime Minister.  Is he beholden to the people or the President, who it appears has been chosen after the fact?  

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

by p------- on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 11:02:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In Italy or the UK, the head of state (president or monarch) has little political power. They are more or less figureheads. When parliamentary elections are held, the head of state calls on the leader of the majority party (or coalition) to form a government. It is in that sense that Italy elected Prodi as Prime Minister. (Though the formalities are not over and he's not yet in the PM's seat).

In France, like in the US, the head of state is an elected president who does have a lot of political power. That, among others, of appointing the executive.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 11:09:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The way it works legally, and the way it works in practice, and especially the way the story is told in the media, differ.

Keep in mind my claim that Western Europe's Parliamentary systems are becoming pseudo-Presidentialistic [France is a separate case altogether].

So, in Italy it just so happens that the President's term expired close to the date of the parliamentary elections.  It need not be that way. [France and the EU find themselves in the same situation, for some extrange reason: maybe this is another sign of presidentialization of the parliametary systems].

In Western European Republics [except France] the President is largely a figurehead just like the Monarchs in our Parliamentary monarchies. However, the president/monarch has some important ceremonial powers...

  • signing all laws into force
  • dissolving parliament [on the advice of the Prime Minister] and calling elections
  • appointing the Prime Minister [subject to a vote by the Parliament]

Usually the President/King will "ask" the leader of the largest parliamentary faction to "form a government". This may involve forming a coalition to pass the initial parliamentary approval vote.

This is why when people elect their parliaments, they vote for their local party or candidate with the national party leader in mind as prime minister. Tony Blair was on the ballot only in one constituency, as was Prodi, as was Villepin. not nationwide.

Imagine for a minute that the US electors were actually (as opposed to just numerically) your congresspeople. Then people would have to vote for their local member of congress with a view to who they want in the white house [except on midterm elections].

It is possible for a government to fall without triggering an election. The PM would go to the king/President and resign. Then the King/Prez would decide whether to call an election or ask someone else to form an alternative ruling coalition. This happened in italy all the time: 4-year parliaments with 3 or 4 different prime ministers. Similarly, Villepin could resign without triggering an election. The UMP still has a huge majority in the national Assembly.

Is that confusing enough?

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 11:26:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Suddenly makes the American system look terribly effective & democratic...

Am I detecting a note of objection to "Presidentialistic" government from you?  To me it seems to provide, at least in the US case (the French Pres seems to have more power -by law, not in the way Bush does, which is not legal- than the US President) a nice set of checks and balances and avoid a "tyranny of the majority."  Try not to read these words in the context of current events.  I propose it is not the structure of our government but the nature of our economy, education system, campaign finance insanity, etc. that has led to our current problems.

Also, I have a big problem likening a Monarch to a President, not because of their function, but because of how they've obtained their position.  (Though in this regard, Bush is more like Monarch, as he was not truly democratically elected...)

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

by p------- on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 11:39:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
My problem with "presidentialism" is the personalisation of politics in the party leaders. That's not the way our parliamentary democracies are supposed to work.

The French, American and Russian systems are Presidentialistic by design, and there's nothing wrong with that.

As for likening a monarch to a president...

Our Republican constitutions [except the French] are patterned after the Parliamentary Monarchies they replaced. The figurehead presidents have very similar powers [actual and ceremonial] as the old Kings used to have under the late 19th century/early 20th century parliamentary monarchy constitutions, which are still very similar to modern parliamentary monarchy constitutions.

Honestly, the US President and his cabinet look just like an 18th century enlightened despot king and his cabinet, and it is not coincidental that Alexander Hamilton thought the President should be elected for life. That was the first attempt by a bunch of people educated in a parliamentary monarchy to come up with a republican constitution.

Republican constitutions mimic the monarchic constitutions they replace.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 11:48:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, come on.  I'm not aware of any Monarch being elected or impeached by Parliament (without radically changing the nature of the country's political system.)  And our President only has control over our "parliament" in so much as he has veto power and his job performance can influence his party's success at the polls.

A President my be the public face of a nation and go through the same cermonial protocol as Kings, but that's nothing to do with the way they govern or are held to account.  If this is what defines the nature of the executive, there would be no difference between Dictators, Military juntas, Kings, Presidents, PMs, Governors, etc.  Which is not the case.

As to the way in which we've co-opted aspects of monarchy, it is a matter of evolution.  Christians co-opted pagan holidays, but I think it is fair to say that pagans and Christians have very different world views.

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

by p------- on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 12:04:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, come on.  I'm not aware of any Monarch being elected or impeached by Parliament (without radically changing the nature of the country's political system.)
That's the one difference between a republican president and a monarch. And figurehead presidents don't get impeached. Prime ministers do [or are subject to motions of no confidence].

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 12:07:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Apart from the Polish parliament electing kings there was also an elction-kingdom of Sweden. Or at least historians call it that. There was some element of election and acceptance but the process is somewhat hard to understand.

And speaking more of the modern age, the king of Sweden is often seen as perpetually running against a republic. If the royal family became unpopular and the peoples support waned, there would be a republic. With a figurehead president.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Thu May 11th, 2006 at 08:47:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I realize I forgot about the Holy Roman Empire [with prince-electors] and the Visigoth kingdom of Spain [elective monarchy] among other germanic tribes with elected monarchs.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 11th, 2006 at 09:08:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There have been elective Monarchies. Poland before it was partitioned in the nineteenth century had such a system.

There have also been republics with institutions not very different from monarchies. The English in their republican phase tried having a non-hereditary chief executive. Under the Instrument of Government (1653) the Council of State elected a Lord Protector for life. Later on in the Commonwealth the Lord Protector was given power to nominate an heir, which Oliver Cromwell did by selecting his eldest surviving son. The term of office of Lord Protector Richard Cromwell was short and unhappy.

Oliver Cromwell did not have the pretensions of the Stuart Kings to be an absolute monarch, but his practical powers were much the same. He also had the benefit of a more efficient state and a disciplined regular army to ensure that his power could be exercised more effectively.

The point I am trying to make is that when a country forms a new government it tends to be similar to the old one. The differences are either cosmetic or reactions to some aspects of the old system (absolute King and Lord Protector in seventeenth century England; constitutional monarch and President subject to checks and balances in eighteenth century America).

The evolution of Parliamentary government in nineteenth and twentieth century Europe, gradually made the head of government more important than the Chief of State.

There is a modern tendency, which France gave institutional form to by giving additional power to the Chief of State, to emphasise one person (usually the Head of government) more than the government as a whole or the Parliament.

The problem with the modern British executive is not the Monarch but the Prime Minister; whose power has grown, is growing and ought to be diminished.

by Gary J on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 01:20:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, come on.  I'm not aware of any Monarch being elected or impeached by Parliament (without radically changing the nature of the country's political system.)  And our President only has control over our "parliament" in so much as he has veto power and his job performance can influence his party's success at the polls.

Ceremonial Presidents, in contrast, can't be impeached (nor have the opportunity to give reason for), and are expected to be impartial once ascending to the job (just like constitutional Monarchs). The veto power (if they have it) is their sole 'real' power, though usually conditional: e.g. a Presidential veto effectively means that the law is sent to constitutional court or back to Parliament for a second vote.

Another thing the others haven't mentioned that ceremonial Presidents are usually (but not everywhere) chosen by Parliaments (joint sessions of two houses if there is a two-house Parliament), not popular vote. Proponets see the thus limited (and Monarch-like) legitimacy as something positive: the President would be less likely to want to usurp the PM's policy authority. View it as checks and balances.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 04:27:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I did silly little over-simplified graphic representations of who gets to choose whom in the various systems:

US system with executive President:

Image Hosting by PicsPlace.to

(British, Dutch, Scandinavian, Spanish) parliamentary democracy:

Image Hosting by PicsPlace.to

Parliamentary democracy with Parliament-elected ceremonial President (Germany, Italy, Hungary etc.):

Image Hosting by PicsPlace.to

Parliamentary democracy with popularly elected weak ceremonial President (Portugal, Slovakia etc.):

Image Hosting by PicsPlace.to

Parliamentary democracy with both PM and strong (some executive powers) President (France, Poland, Russia):

Image Hosting by PicsPlace.to

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 05:20:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Brilliant!

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 05:26:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And Colman provided this BBC diagram of the Iranian system:


A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 06:13:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
you should definitely put this in a diary - maybe even as a front page story so that it can be put as a "debate" on political systems.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 06:47:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
OK, will do so tomorrow morning, then also with some arguments for/against the various systems. (Now I should be in bed since an hour...)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 06:51:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Wait, does "government" mean the judiciary?

If not then I'm not sure I agree with your interpretation of the American model.    

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

by p------- on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 08:00:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It means the Cabinet.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 08:03:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's really interesting that one would equate
"government" with "cabinet."  We generally see the government as the sum total of the executive, legislative and judiciary branches.   Now I understand your problem with presidentialism.  

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire
by p------- on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 08:31:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Why is that interesting? It's common [non-technical] usage. We do way "executive" on occasion, but at least in Spain it sounds pedantic. Then again, when one says "the President will ask Prodi to form a Government" or "European heads of state and government" there is no ambiguity.

Americans will usually say "administration" where Europeans say "government", I now realize. In Europe I think "administration" is synonimous with "state bureaucracy" and not restricted to the Cabinet or the heads of national government agencies.

I must not have made myself clear. I don't have a problem with American, French, or Russian presidentialism. I do have a problem with the presidentialisation [i.e., personalisation of politics on the party leaders and of admninistration on the prime minister] of our parliamentary systems.

I suggest that you google "Blair presidential style" to see what I mean. It is entirely possible that calling this "presidentialisation" is a popular misinterpretation of the American system, but that's another story.

Dodo should really turn this into a diary so we can hash it out there.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 11th, 2006 at 03:05:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Technically, the US Senate has to approve the nominations of US Cabinet members.  Although our pathetic Senate rarely doesn't approve someone because they hope to get free passes when their party has the Presidency.  Like many things, what the Constitution calls for and what happens in practice are not always the same.

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire
by p------- on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 09:03:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, Presidents facing hostile majorities in Congress sometimes can't get their nominees appointed [See Clinton and his attorney generals]. Even with a majority, an aggressive minority can use confirmation hearings to make a nominee politically untenable, though that would be rare.

In this connection, I am not entirely happy with DoDo's diagrams because generally there should be "proposes" arrows from the head of state down to the PM and from the President/PM down to the rest of the cabinet, and "approves" arrows up from the parliament to the PM and/or cabinet.

In many bicameral systems there are also members of the upper house who are not popularly elected [as was the case in the US initially]: senators "by royal designation", "nominated by the provincial/state government", "lifetime senators"...].

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 11th, 2006 at 03:14:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I am not entirely happy with DoDo's diagrams because generally there should be "proposes" arrows from the head of state down to the PM and from the President/PM down to the rest of the cabinet, and "approves" arrows up from the parliament to the PM and/or cabinet.

Didn't I omit that only in the case of the American system?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu May 11th, 2006 at 07:09:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No arrows into "PM" unless you intend them to apply to the entire triangle and not just to the bottom. Also, what's the difference between "appoints" and "nominates"?

Maybe the orange arrows pointing into the middle of the brack arrows?

It just didn't seem clear to me.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 11th, 2006 at 07:14:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
One other difference between the American system and the Parliamentary systems is that since we elect the President directly, and have a term limit, one he (or, theoretically, she) is in for two terms then he's out, permanently. (Although I think a couple have later served in the Senate, a long time ago.)

The irritating thing about the Parliamentary system is that Blair, for example, can't be voted out of office by the public at large without voting out the whole Labour party. If Labour stays in power he could theoretically continue as PM forever.

by asdf on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 08:17:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In France it's closer to the US than to a purely parliamentary democracy like the UK. Just as the US president chooses the members of the executive (though there is no Prime Minister or similar coordinating position), the French pres chooses a PM who draws up a list of ministers for approval (in fact the pres does most of the choosing).

The PM doesn't have to be elected -- Villepin holds no electoral mandate, for example. He was a close advisor to Chirac at the Elysee Palace before being appointed.

Yes, of course Villepin would disappear the day the president left office. In his case, he was hoping to do well as PM so as to launch a successful bid to become president after Chirac's departure. Chirac supported him in this, but it has obviously backfired.

Your questions aren't ignorant American... I didn't cover this background because it would have made for a huge diary, but I expect your queries are those of a lot of people who don't know how the French constitution works. Ask away if you have more.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 11:03:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In France it's closer to the US than to a purely parliamentary democracy like the UK. Just as the US president chooses the members of the executive (though there is no Prime Minister or similar coordinating position), the French pres chooses a PM ...  The PM doesn't have to be elected -- Villepin holds no electoral mandate, for example. He was a close advisor to Chirac at the Elysee Palace before being appointed... Yes, of course Villepin would disappear the day the president left office...

So it is more akin to the America VP, who is head of the Senate and also goes about doing foreign policy things, yet who is chosen by and comes along with the President, a package deal. ?  (Obviously there are differences, but a PM in France is obvioulsy is not = to a PM in the UK.)

Your questions aren't ignorant American... Ask away if you have more...

Thanks. Would Chirac need to oust Villepin simply for the sake of the party?  And how exactly would it hurt Sarkozy's chances of becoming President if he were appointed PM?  Seems like a vote of confidence to me...


Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

by p------- on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 11:20:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The difference with the American Veep is that s/he is elected on a ticket with the pres. As you know, the Veep exercises more or less power. Cheney is very much on the more side.

In fact, there is no equivalent in the American constitution to the French PM. Or imagine that, when the president appoints the Sec of State, of Defense, the Attorney General, etc, he also appoints a coordinator of executive activity. Sounds stupid because the president is in fact (with more or less help from the Veep) that coordinator.

My personal view is that the French system on this point is full of BS. The PM is there to support a polite fiction, which is that the president is above the fray and doesn't mind the shop. The PM's work is real, but his main function is to make it look as if things are getting done, and to take the rap if not. He is often a lightning conductor for the president -- he gets fired when things go wrong, the president sails on regardless.

That leads to an answer about whether it's a vote of confidence to be appointed PM. Yes. But it's a very risky position. Ideally, a presidential candidate would want to keep away from it. (So why did Villepin take it on? No doubt because he has a high opinion of his ability to make France fall in love with him [his actual words on this seem to have been more buccaneering...])

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 11:38:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hey, he had me in love with him for awhile... ;)

Thanks for clearing the rest up, it makes much more sense now.  I was confused about the chief executive appointing someone to ... coordinate the Executive.  But I suspected it served the function you described. (Jerome's diary also made that point.)

FYI, the US VP is on the ballot, but I'm not aware of any election in which the elected VP was not on the same ticket as the elected President...  It's a given that when voting for a Presidential nominee, you are also voting for their VP.

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

by p------- on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 11:52:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Regarding the VP being on the ballot... Note how the legal details of the US (vice)presidential election, the practical details and the voter/media perception differ, just like they differ in Europe.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 11:54:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The US VP analogy is possible but potentially confusing since for it to be more accurate you'd have to imagine the VP as representing the senate majority (actually it would have to be the congressional majority) not necessarily the president's party or choice. France had many years of "cohabitation" governments in which the president was from the right or left and the PM was from the opposite party which was the ruling majority in parliament. Presidential terms in France were for 7 years up until 2001 when they were reduced to 5 years. This was plenty of time for the electorate to decide they had had enough and change the parliamentary majority thus forcing a cohabitation government.

The brookings institute's web site has an article by Olivier Duhamel, Professor of Constitutional Law and Political Science at Sciences Po Paris, that discusses the French electoral system and provides this graph of the 5th republic presidents and prime ministers illustrating the cohabitation of red and blue:

by Alexandra in WMass (alexandra_wmass[a|t]yahoo[d|o|t]fr) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 12:14:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Terrific table, Alexandra. Of course, too, you're right that the PRF (Président de la République Française) does have to take the parliamentary majority into account in appointing a PM, or it would be impossible to govern. This is not a written obligation, however, it's a convention the precedent for which was set by Mitterand in 1986.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 12:23:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Does the President have to submit the PM to the approval of the Parliament, and/or can the Parliament introduce a vote of no confidence against the PM? The president does not get to dissolve the assembly for a whole year.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 12:26:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's not a convention, it's a very hard political fact that the majority in parliament can "censor" the government (motion de censure) and thus get rid of a PM it doesn't like.

The only convention Mitterrand put in place was to choose the legitimate leader of the other camp as PM, rather than imposing a less "natural" candidate of that camp to cause infighting.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 12:31:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In my language, if it's not written into the constitution it's a convention. Conventions take hard political facts into consideration. That's often how they come about or how they evolve.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 12:37:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think just using the word convention without qualifying it can be confusing. There are more or less flexible conventions and this would fall in the not-very-flexible-at-all-if-you-want-to -govern conventions because of Parliament's power to vote a "motion de censure".

BTW great update diary with a wonderful photo! Thanks Afew

by Alexandra in WMass (alexandra_wmass[a|t]yahoo[d|o|t]fr) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 12:54:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, it's not a very fluffy convention because there are hard sanctions. But I don't like to use "tradition", so I said "convention". Will happily use another term if you or someone can suggest one.

Thanks, Alexandra. The photo is courtesy of the Nouvel Obs.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 01:40:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I vote for "not very fluffy convention" :-) but I think the point came across much better in the back and forth anyway.
by Alexandra in WMass (alexandra_wmass[a|t]yahoo[d|o|t]fr) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 03:30:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

In France it's closer to the US than to a purely parliamentary democracy like the UK.

I disagree. Recent experiences of cohabitation (president from one side, but parliamentary majority form the other side) have shown that most of the executive power is in fact vested with the PM, chosen by the National Assembly. The President retains some prerogatives (notably over the military and diplomacy, and a lot of less visible nominations in variousadministrations), but day-to-day power clearly is with the PM. And Jospin's 5-year stint in power under Chirac showed that this is a stable situation, if not easy to manage for the PM.

The recent change in the presidential mandate from 7 to 5 years has not yet been tested in a cohabitation situation, but I don't expect it to be different.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 12:20:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The recent change in the presidential mandate from 7 to 5 years has not yet been tested in a cohabitation situation, but I don't expect it to be different.
With the presidential and parliamentary terms now in lockstep with each other, I don't think the likelyhood of cohabitation in the future is very high...

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 12:24:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree Jospin's five-year PMship significantly moved the cursor towards PM and ministerial autonomy. I'd submit that Chirac's last four years, particularly with non-entity PM Raffarin, have ignored that movement.

In future I'd expect the trend to be towards more actual power to the PM, but there's no guarantee of this. Seeing the autocratic tendencies of a Villepin, for example, makes me wonder what kind of PM he would appoint and what autonomy he would give that person if he were PRF. He would have the constitution on his side if he chose to act like a monarch (which many, don't forget, considered Mitterand did in his time...)

I would like to see changes in the constitution linking the PM more directly to the parliamentary majority, as happens by convention during cohabitation periods.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 12:33:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Can you give an example of a scenario in which the President and the parliament have differed on policy and the PM has not acted in the interest of the President but of the National Assembly instead, trumping the President's power?  How would this work?  Why would the PM not represent the President's agenda?  Who has veto power, does the PM cast deciding votes, or is it mostly a position of influence and lobbying (when pres. has majority) and diplomacy (during "cohabitation")?

Also, I am confused again.  Upthread, afew states that the President chooses the PM, not the parliament:

In France, like in the US, the head of state is an elected president who does have a lot of political power. That, among others, of appointing the executive.
...
(and)
the French pres chooses a PM who draws up a list of ministers for approval (in fact the pres does most of the choosing).

and you say:

the executive power is in fact vested with the PM, chosen by the National Assembly.

Even during "cohabitation" the President still picks the PM, just from a different party.  Who has the final say on policies?  The President or the PM?  

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

by p------- on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 01:09:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The PM, after being appointed, goes before the National Assembly, outlines his governments policy, and seeks a vote of confidence. I think this is what Jérôme means by "chosen by the National Assembly".

But the president chooses the Prime Minister. He doesn't even have to take a PM from the political world. For example, Giscard d'Estaing appointed Raymond Barre PM in 1976 on his status as an economist, not as a political figure. As long as there's a parliamentary majority that will support the government and vote its bills, it's OK.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 01:48:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
An introduction to France's political system

Maybe worth wiki-ing?

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 11:15:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Merci.

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire
by p------- on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 11:21:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Done.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 11:24:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Don't listen to all of the pedants above. Thwey don't know what they're talking about.

In France, the President is selected by the Templars.

Then to choose a Prime Minister he paints his face with the blood of a Poulet de Bresse and invokes the god Teutates while testing the urine of Lance Armstrong with a strip of L'EQUIPE previously soaked in Fernet-Branca.

If it turns blue, he then selects the politician with the most "L"s in his name, as long as he he isn't birn in a month with an "R" in it.

If it turns fuschia, he selects Jean-Paul Gauthier. So far, that hasn't happened.

by Lupin on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 01:22:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I knew they were giving me the run-around... ;)

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire
by p------- on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 01:30:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Don't give Chirac ideas.

Though perhaps JPG qualifies for the "safe pair of hands" award...?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 01:31:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think the best analogy for the French PM (when the same party controls the Presidency and the Chambre des Deputes) in the US political system is the WH Chief of Staff -- he answers effectively to the President, runs the cabinet and handles relations with the legislature.

The difference is -- and this is characteristic of the post-1971 "Presidentialized" Fifth REpublic -- that President also has his own "cabinet" with its own "directeur" and comm. operation and policy appartus.

And of course, the PM is still an office constitutionally defined as the "head of the government" meaning the PM should be setting policy and not just implementing. In effect, this happens only during a "co-habitation" or in moments of disfunction within the governing party or coalition (which have been frequent, especially since 2002).

This leads me to the other half of the question, not raised in the post. It was widely reported over the weekend that Hollande would introduce a motion of censure against the government as a way to force Sarko and the UMP deputies to tie themselves to Villepin. But now I wonder if they will instead let him hang -- simply vote for Hollande's motion, which would effectively dissolve the government (though not the Chambre).

From Chirac's pointof view, this weould be ideal -- it would free his hand to replace Villepin while allowing (as bizarre as this sounds) allowing Villepin to save face in so far as he would not be fired and could claim  to be what everyone in French politics wants to be these days -- the victim of a "complot."

by desmoulins (gsb6@lycos.com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 08:02:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You'd never have a WH Chief of staff from a different party.  Also, that's a very behind the scenes position.  It is mainly an advisory position, and the Chief of Staff is under no actual obligation to represent the people's will.  

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire
by p------- on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 08:27:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, of course; I meant that the PM functions as a CoS only when Pres and Chambre are controlled by the same "famille politique" - eg, Villepin, Raffarin, Juppe, Bere, Cresson and so forth.  The comparison comes to mind because both PM and CoS (when President's coalition controls the Chmbre) really have a constituency of one, the PResidnt. And that in the American system the CoS has most direct relations with the cabinet and legislature.

In the case of a cohabitation, the PM is I think most analogous to the Speaker in an American "cohabitation" (eg, O'Neil/ Reagan; Gingrich/ Clinton).  

by desmoulins (gsb6@lycos.com) on Thu May 11th, 2006 at 12:57:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks for this update...keep waiting for this to blow up!!

"Once in awhile we get shown the light, in the strangest of places, if we look at it right" - Hunter/Garcia
by whataboutbob on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 10:50:21 AM EST
Le Canrd Enchainé also notes that at this point in time prior to the last presidential election (where he got 17% of the vote and got into the second round), Le Pen polled 8%. Today he polls between 15 and 18%.

I seriously do not see him NOT being in the second round again in 2007.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 11:18:23 AM EST
That was what I meant by unfun...
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 11:25:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Le Pen huh? The only thing I know about him are pretty harmless anti-non-integrated-immigrant slogans like "France - love it or leave it!".

Is he a nuissance, a bad guy or a really bad guy?

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 12:16:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The wikipedia article is pretty good.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 12:18:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks. :)

So he is a populist anti-elite anti-immigrant clown (deprived of his EP seat for physically assaulting another candidate), with an impressive past (decorated veteran of the French paratroops in Indochina, Suez, and Algeria).

Probably a threat mainly to the socialists as he mainly attracts the votes of disgruntled working class people who don't like living next to Arab immigrants, (especially as he focus on being tough on crime)?

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 01:15:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What a dreadful prospect!! Makes me wonder how large the Le pen vote would remain in the final round if the alternative was a candidate from the left this time.
by Alexandra in WMass (alexandra_wmass[a|t]yahoo[d|o|t]fr) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 12:36:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And a woman from the left, at that.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 12:38:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Certainly more than the last time :-(
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 12:42:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
He could carry the winning margin, though, couldn't he? I guess he would have to have a PARTY that gets 20%, though, right? Is that possible?
by asdf on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 08:20:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sorry, I don't understand your question.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Thu May 11th, 2006 at 03:27:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think asdf is in need of a diary on the French Presidential Election process.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 11th, 2006 at 03:32:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Parties don't matter in the Presidential election. Le Pen could in theory finish first in the first round - but not in the second.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu May 11th, 2006 at 07:15:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What I meant to ask was, if Le Pen were to have, say, 20% of the vote, he could win in the first round but almost certainly not in the second round. Without a party that also has 20% of the seats, he would be effectively powerless.

The contrast being with the British system where the leader of a 20% party, elected himself in one particular district, can hold considerable power by providing a coalition with either of the other two 40% parties...

by asdf on Thu May 11th, 2006 at 08:58:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That is correct, but Le Pen's Front National is considered untouchable and would be shunned in the National Assembly (as it is in the European Parliament), and so has no power as kingmaker.

In the latest parliamentary elections, the FN got 11% of the vote, coming in third place. Can someone explain how it happened that the FN has no seats (according to wikipedia) even though much smaller parties did get seats?

In the 2004 European Parliament elections the FN got 9.8% of the vote and 7 seats.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 11th, 2006 at 09:06:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
THis is because the French system allots all seats by unitary circumscription (first past the post) rather than proportional representation. In 1986, Mitterand and the Fabius government introduced PR to offset expected losses, and it allowed the FN to gain seats in the Chambre; afterwards, the new RPR-led majority went back to unitary and its stayed that way ever since.

A second answer is the two-stage election; only candidates (within a circumscription) that win 10% in the first round advance to the second. As a result, FN candidates in the 2nd round are almost always in 3-way run offs; if it appears the FN candidate could win, "republican responsibility" often leads one of the two "major party" candidates to withdraw. However, these "triangulaires" are what made possible the 1997 Gauche plurielle victory; in 97 districts (IIRC) the left candidate won the 2nd round with less than 50% of the vote due to a "triangulaire."

by desmoulins (gsb6@lycos.com) on Thu May 11th, 2006 at 10:15:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So france introduced FPTP as a way to get rid of Le Pen... Is this also why the UMP has such a staggering majority in the Assembly?

IMHO, triangulating like that in order to shut the FN out of the parliament is counter-producing and only strengthens the FN as "anti-system" and "persecuted".

Better to let them have a small parliamentary group and make asses of themselves.

Single transferable vote would solve the problem without requiring that one of the "democratic" candidates withdraw. The mainstream left or right voters would vote for each other as second option and that would be that.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 11th, 2006 at 10:20:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think you misread desmoulins. FPTP was always the general rule. There was a PR experiment in the mid-'80s, but the "Gaullists" put the clock back at the first opportunity.

A reason small parties (the Greens for example) can get deputies is as a result of bargaining with a big party (PS for the Greens). The PS and the Greens are currently hashing this out for next year, and having a job agreeing on numbers. The agreement, of course, is of a coalition nature; the PS will give the Greens some safe seats in return for Green support elsewhere.

No party negotiates this kind of agreement with the FN.

It's a vexed question, whether it's better to collude to keep the FN out, or let them in. They have no respect for parliamentary government, and dynamite it on every possible occasion. And they are not asses. Had they maintained a regular parliamentary presence over the last twenty years, I fear they might be even bigger today than they are.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu May 11th, 2006 at 04:17:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You also have to collude to allow small "desirable " parties in. It generally increases the base corruption level of the political system.

If instead of actually fighting to get the protest voters back in the fold, the mainstream candidates can just collude, they get comfortable and the problems that the FN capitalizes on fester. Then if and when the Fn breaks through the enclosure, it does so catastrophically.

It is quite clear if you're going to have single-seat constituencies you should use single transferable vote.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 11th, 2006 at 04:43:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The contrast being with the British system where the leader of a 20% party, elected himself in one particular district, can hold considerable power by providing a coalition with either of the other two 40% parties...

There is no significant difference with the British system here: both are FPTP, and both could in theory keep even a 20% party outside Parliament. What makes Britain (or if I want to be more precise, England) different is two things.

One is the strong geographic differences in the vote, the strong local traditions behind one party or the other: a 15% national vote for LibDem could mean 50% vote in some districts.

The other is the reason why three parties with long-running traditions can exist: the historical two-party system of Liberals and Conservatives could be modified due to the dual impact of WWI and a massive expansion of the circle of voters, among whom Labour found a foothold.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu May 11th, 2006 at 11:19:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I thought the difference was that Blair is actually only elected by his local district, while the French President is elected by the whole country.

Bush or Chirac can be voted out by the nation as a whole, while still keeping their respective parties in office, but Blair can't be removed (except by his own small district) unless the country rejects the whole Labour party.

by asdf on Thu May 11th, 2006 at 07:37:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Chirac has a Japanese girlfriend in Kyoto, so I heard a few times from friends in government. Kyoto is OK but very expensive, so I wouldn't blame Chirac for the bank account. (Tokyo offers the best in the world, in my opinion, free.)

I will become a patissier, God willing.
by tuasfait on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 11:29:32 AM EST
I'm sorry for the post above, ladies, if you find it offensive.

I will become a patissier, God willing.
by tuasfait on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 11:31:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There have also been persistent rumors that he has a daughter in Japan.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 11:37:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The Canard says he has been to Japan about fifty times over the "last few years".

I'll try to do a diary about the Sowa Bank account (which Chirac strictly denies holding).

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 11:41:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There may be a story. The previous owners of the SOWA bank (which filed for bankrupty in 1999), the Osada brothers, were involved in a major financial scandal in 1999. They owned a luxury hotel where Chirac reportedly stayed once.



I will become a patissier, God willing.

by tuasfait on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 11:58:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
One of the Osadas, Shoichi, used at least to (perhaps still does) have friendly relations with Chirac, who awarded him the Légion d'honneur in 1994.

Luxury hotels, too, Chirac likes...

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 12:16:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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