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"Russia is the enemy"

by Jerome a Paris Sat May 6th, 2006 at 10:03:35 AM EST

We've been accused of being so anti-Russian that it's even pointless to give us the other version, but hey, I like to rub people the wrong way and I'll provide another version myself.

As someone who has always been pretty wary of Putin and his entourage, I find the recent war of words unleashed by Blair, Barroso and Cheney against Russia unseemly and stupid. Russia is not blackmailing us with the energy weapon, it is reacting - pretty moderately from the actual words and not from the media spin but on them - to sanctimonious self-interested attempts to grab pieces of its energy resources disguised as common sense advice.

See also poemless's recent diary - the thread is to a large extent about Russia. See also the articles and discussion in this morning's Breakfast, starting here, and the text below the fold.


I'll stand by my earlier opinions that Putin is slowly reducing freedoms in Russia, and that the war in Chechnya, whatever the context and the appalling actions of some of the Chechens, is little short of genocide and needs to be condemned as such. I'll also restate my opinion that Putin and his cronies are looting the Russian public resources just as much as the oligarchs around Yelstin (if not more) - but are lucky that there is so much loot these days thanks to higher oil prices that they can both loot and redistribute enough to the population to keep it happy.

But the West record on the same topics is so lousy in recent years (Iraq, anyone? "Terrorism" laws shredding our civil rights? Mediaset-enabling laws? Cronyism and corruption at the Elysée Palace? etc...) that our governments are terribly hypocritical to say things to Putin today, especially after having cultivated him as "nash" (one of ours, a word with very strong meaning in Russian) not so long ago. Whether it was the oil money or his policies, whether it is centralisation or dictature, Russia has at least undoubtedly moved from chaos to order in recent years, and regained some semblance of prosperity. What achievements can Messrs Berlusconi, Blair, Bush or Chirac claim in the same time period for their respective countries?

Anyway, here's another view on that:

Patrick Armstrong, analyst for the Canadian government, quoted in Untimely-Thoughts (via Ruminations on Russia)

There's always a standing bill of indictment against Russia, although the details continually change. In 2001 the Washington Post warned that Russia would default on debt repayments; the Kursk sinking prompted reflections on the "callous disregard for human life" of Russia's leadership (Knight 2000); in 1997 Kissinger was complaining about Russia's "refusal" to demarcate its borders; no Russian leader had ever left power voluntarily and neither would Yeltsin, warned Stephen Cohen in 1994. Most charges prove ephemeral or false - nuclear tests in Nova Zemlya, the Security Council as the "new Politburo", war over the Black Sea Fleet - but others come up again and again. Some charges have validity. The war in Chechnya was certainly very brutal. Putin has centralized power and tightened control over the media. But, when these charges appear on the bill of indictment, they appear without context. The Russian army is brutal in Chechnya not necessarily because it wants to be, but because bad armies are brutal. And, despite "fabricated rumors of a Chechen-al Qaeda nexus" (Washington Times, 2002), we know better. Nor do we hear as much about "unresolved" (Guardian, 2000) apartment bombings when there have been so many jihadist bombings of nightclubs, railway stations, tourist resorts and mosques. Putin is centralising because he (and, be it clear, most Russians) agree that the 1990s were frighteningly chaotic. A centralised media is not desirable but neither was the media of the oligarch wars. Too many governors were the pawns of local hoods. Putin does have reasons, good or bad, for what he does: saying "tight-lipped 47-year-old KGB staffer" (Guardian, 2000) or "Andropov redux" (Gaffney, 2000) is not an explanation. When Brzezinski last year stormed that Moscow refused to repudiate the Hitler-Stalin pact, it wasn't just "nostalgic efforts by Vladimir Putin to restore Moscow's control": no country will assume responsibility for historical malfeasance when it knows the next step will be reparations claims.

While charging Putin with bringing back the "Soviet anthem" (Wall Street Journal, 2000), the fact that all the other state symbols were lifted straight from the Tsars was not mentioned. This is not argument, it is advocacy. The essence of the charge sheet style is that the conclusion determines the evidence. Take the everlasting assertion that Russia is naturally imperialist: this is the oldest of the charges - experts "knew" that Gorbachev would never leave Germany - and as time moves on, the accusation remains. The format is the same: Russia's so-called nostalgia for empire is asserted (Jonathon Eyal in 1993, Pipes in 1994 and 1998, George Tenet in 1997, Paul Goble 2000) and examples are filled in as needed: "democratic Georgia" today, the Baltics yesterday, Germany the day before. As the troops leave one country, another place is found to prove the point. The "energy weapon" is deployed against contumacious neighbors like Ukraine (but be careful not to mention that Gazprom is raising the price for "friends" like Armenia and Belarus, too). The charge predates Putin - in 1993 The Economist decided that Georgia's independence had been already snuffed out and the energy wars have been going on since 1991.

Rarely, however, is it pointed out that Russia's neighbors are more independent each year and that Russian troops are leaving them too. Or that while Ukraine needs Russian energy, Russia needs Ukrainian pipelines to move its gas to those who actually pay for it. The boot here is actually on both feet. "Imperialist Russia", it is clear, is a premise, not a conclusion. The repetitive bills of indictment have a cumulative effect - people forget the alarms that never came to pass but remember the underlying message that Russia is a menace. Why try to take an objective look at the whole of Russian reality when "traditional Russian imperialism" (Kissinger, 1997) is all you need to know? A great deal of opinion in the USA and the West has been shaped by the continual drum roll of warnings, accusations and indictments. Eventually the message gets stuck in: Russia is an enemy.

Display:

First of all, let us remember that the current war of words was not started by Russia, despite the evocation of the Russian-Ukrainian clash in January. I'll stand by my opinion that this clash demonstrated that Gazprom valued its reliability as a supplier more than whatever cash it gets out of Ukraine (none) - it restored supplies as soon as the clash with Ukraine interfered with its normal deliveries to Europe, and before a solution was found with the Ukrainians. I remain convinced that this clash had little to do with the relationship between Russia and Ukraine and everything with the muddy fights of a few people well placed in both countries over the gas loot - these are happening all the time, but for some reason, they got out of hand (my theory is that there was 3-way infighting on both the Russian and Ukrainian sides: Yuschenko/Tymoshenko/Yanukovich and Gazprom Old Guard/Sechin/Medvedev) and became a lot more public than usual, and some explanations for the public and the West had to be cooked up using the existing context.

Let us also note that the same energy wars went on throughout the 90s. Just google BTC, Itera, Chechnya bypass, Blue Stream, Ventspils, Majeiku refinery, BPS, etc... The short version of these wars is that Russia mostly lost the oil wars, and mostly won the gas wars, both for the same reason: reliability. Oil & gas investments represent huge amounts put at risk for very long periods, and even the rich oil companies of the West need some basic level of certainty that they will get something out of it. Whoever can provide the best reliability in delivering - repeatedly, year after year - will be the preferred partner. On the oil side, Russia chose for a long time a "grab the loot" strategy, which to some extent reflected the fact that the industry was cut into pieces, ownership of assets was uncertain for a while, and all players tried to get their loot as quickly as possible, without really caring about the long temr impact of such behavior. Thus Russia was avoided as much as possible as a transit route for pipelines from the Caspian area (thus the BTC pipeline, and the CPC, which goes through Russia, is not controlled by Transneft, the national monopoly); it was also generally avoided as an area for investment when other countries were more welcoming. On the gas side, Gazprom demonstrated its discinpline and its strategic acumen in its longstanding policy of building a coherent and "exhaustive" pipeline system, including a growing number of export routes. Thus the Blue Stream pipeline to Turkey, which Gazprom build despite a massive US effort to kill it and push the competing (but unfinanceable) PSG pipeline from Turkmenistan, the Polish bit of the Yamal-Europe pipeline, and the smart neutralisation of Turkmenistan as a competitor. Above all, Gazprom has always been aware that it is a business where commitments are made in decades, and it has been a reliable counterparty to its clients and main suppliers (it has also helped Russia - and several of its neighbors - survive, literally, through the 90s). Banks know that, and have financed the company throughout the 90s, and even after the 1998 crash - and Gazprom has always focused on that bit: reliability, trustworthiness and long term relations based on trust.

Several things have changed today. One is that in the current worldwide context of oil supply tightness, there are no longer many alternatives to Russia where to find oil, and the Western oil majors suddenly need access to Russia more (a lot more) than Russia needs their investments. The other is the sudden move of the UK from net exporter to importer of oil and gas, and the apparent lack of readiness of the country for that event, which has already caused a few scares on the markets (with natural gas prices reaching the equivalent of 240$/boe) and led the Blair government on a massive hunt for scapegoats. France played that role, quite naturally, early on, but Russia now seems to have been selected as a more worthy enemy. Both the Ukrainian spat earlier this year, and the Centrica episode, seem to have motivated that choice. I also suppose that Russia's less than enthusiastic position viz. punishing Iran for its nuclear moves plays a role as well.

So in the past weeks, we've seen a relentless barrage of attacks on Russia and Gazprom, via several angles: the need for diversification of Europe's supplies (and the explicit threat to find other suppliers - how is it that when Gazprom says it will look for other clients, it's "blackmail", but when Europe seeks other suppliers, it's anodine?), the need for Russia to open up its pipelines to third party exporters and its upstream sector for Western investors to bring their "superior" technology to help out increase production. The meme of Gazprom's declining production (which I claim Gazprom cultivates to avoid having to give too much gas at low prices inside Russia, and to thus claim higher prices and less taxes in its bilateral relationship with the federal government) has been grabbed with enthusiasm by the West as a way to justify investing in gas fields in Russia - and gaining access to the pipelines as a quid pro quo. And now Dick "Guantanamo/Halliburton" Cheney comes up with his new cold war speech and his criticism of Gazprom's supposed power politics. New dimensions of chutzpah have been discovered in recent years...

The worry is that the heated talk of the recent weeks (described by the Economist as "sanctimonious by the Europeans, and resentful and threatening by the Russians", which I suppose is the fairest one can expect from the Economist) will create irreversible damage in a realtionship that can only be broken at amjor cost to all parties.

Hopefully cooler heads will eventually prevail. The onus is on the West for now. I have one simple suggestion: get serious about energy conservation!

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sat May 6th, 2006 at 10:04:50 AM EST
Now adapted into a dKos diary: Cheney bent on starting new Cold War

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sat May 6th, 2006 at 12:43:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Jerome says: "But the West record on the same topics is so lousy in recent years."

Jerome, it is high time that we question the existence of "the" West. If anything important has happened at all in the last few years after the start of the Irak war, it has been the European peoples' massive reaction AGAINST it and the irreparable widening and deepening of the trans Atlantic rift. Since then  political motivated anti Americanism has become part and parcel of 'bon ton'.

This has lead to a new political geography. The new map shows that "the" West ends at Brest in Brittany, from a Eruropean perspective New York City is now situated at the most extreme eastern point, far, far  behind Siberia.

Cheney can talk much, his political case is dead. The Russian/EU reality is ever more shaped by European public opinion and leaders like Schröder and Putin who don't announce "visions" but build European pipelines.  

"The USA appears destined by fate to plague America with misery in the name of liberty." Simon Bolivar, Caracas, 1819

by Ritter on Sat May 6th, 2006 at 11:01:49 AM EST

  "Jerome, it is high time that we question the existence of "the" West."

  Ooooops !!!

  ;^)

"In such an environment it is not surprising that the ills of technology should seem curable only through the application of more technology..." John W Aldridge

by proximity1 on Sat May 6th, 2006 at 11:10:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
who don't announce "visions"

What is and was your opinion of Helmut Schmidt, BTW? (Back when he governed and now?)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sat May 6th, 2006 at 11:24:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Schmidt? I always admired his clearity of thought and his debating skills. His free speeches at the Bundestag are still legendary for his ability to one handidly tear his opponents apart. I didn't like his policies and his self attributed economic compentence is largely overblown.

"The USA appears destined by fate to plague America with misery in the name of liberty." Simon Bolivar, Caracas, 1819
by Ritter on Sat May 6th, 2006 at 12:57:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In that, he compares to someone who chose him as role model, Schröder :-)

(Schröder famously recounted Schmidt's shouting at Carter and Brezhnyev in the telephone.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sat May 6th, 2006 at 02:04:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
For those not versed in German politics, Helmut Schmidt was German chancellor in the difficult years 1974-1982, and he famously won the 1980 elections with the slogan: "Wer Visionen hat, sollte zum Arzt gehen!" (If someone has visions, he should visit the doctor)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sat May 6th, 2006 at 02:29:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What widening of what rift? Many (probably most) Americans disagree with Bush's policies, and European leaders seem to be taking the same wrongheaded position as American leaders on Iraq and Russia. Isn't that exactly the subject of this diary?
by asdf on Sat May 6th, 2006 at 11:42:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
 I agree with a lot of that.

  The "West's" heads of state have, unfortunately, no lessons to preach to V. Poutine.  And, considering how very objectionable he is, that is saying a lot.  Poutine is very smart; cunning; does not seem to have any tolerance for idle flattery; is fierce in his determination to protect what he sees as Russia's interests no matter what anyone else may think about it; has very few scruples; and is violent and dangerous to his enemies.

  He's a great deal smarter than Bush, in my opinion; also smarter than Blair by far though in their cunning and unscrupulousness, I think Blair and Poutine have a fairly good deal in common.

  It's hard to imagine how someone very unlike Poutine could ever have risen to power in the KGB of the Soviet period and then come to assume the executive of the post-Soviet period after Yeltsin--hard to imagine, that is, a kinder, gentler fellow surviving and making it into power.  I think Poutine is where he is by virtue of all of his positive and negative points--on each side of the ledger, so extreme.

  One of the things that is most striking about contemporary world politics is how very alike the leaders of the once "Free World" and Russia and China are now so very alike in their lack of basic ordinary human virtues.

  Think of them!

 Bush, Blair, Berlusconi, Poutine, Chirac, (can Schröder be placed among these? I honestly don't know!), Junichiro Koizumi, José Manuel Durão Barroso--

  which of these men's personalities, that is, in their characters and qualities-- would you want to find all collected into the person who happened to be your own daughter's romantic interest?

 Gad!

"In such an environment it is not surprising that the ills of technology should seem curable only through the application of more technology..." John W Aldridge

by proximity1 on Sat May 6th, 2006 at 11:09:32 AM EST
Just because Putin doesn't drink on a regular bases doesn't make him an unpleasant person. I would put him (if I wanted to stereotype him) next to Czar Peter because he likewise understands Russia's need to be brought up to speed with the rest of Europe and his years of 'apprenticeship' in western Europe - in Putin's case in the baroque city of Dresden. He speeks fluent German and seems to have picked up a Prussian work ethic. Putin may well become a modern Lenin, who was also inspired by German philosophy and the Prussian centralized war economics.

enjoy:
   http://www.stud.ntnu.no/~makarov/temporary_url_20051216rpszw/anthem-sovietunion-1977.mp3

"The USA appears destined by fate to plague America with misery in the name of liberty." Simon Bolivar, Caracas, 1819

by Ritter on Sat May 6th, 2006 at 01:13:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
 ...to date Poutine?

 I think that he has all the strong points your reply points out and that this is fortunate for Russians; at the same time, I think that referring to him as an "unpleasant person" is a gross understatement.  To those who are really fighting to make Russia a genuinely meaningful democracy, and to those in Chechnya, Poutine is far, far, far more than unpleasant.

 I don't want him to be a modern Lenin; Lenin was succeeded by Stalin.

"In such an environment it is not surprising that the ills of technology should seem curable only through the application of more technology..." John W Aldridge

by proximity1 on Sat May 6th, 2006 at 01:31:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
and, although I've not seen polls about it, will probably foster friendly, sympathetic feelings towards Putin. He is definitely the ideal son-in-law type of guy and his German accent is very charming.

"The USA appears destined by fate to plague America with misery in the name of liberty." Simon Bolivar, Caracas, 1819
by Ritter on Sat May 6th, 2006 at 01:39:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What is Germans' attitude towards Russians? Suprisingly, I would think if there were a poll on Russian's attitudes towards different EU peoples, that Germans have come on top with Spaniards and Czechs.
by blackhawk on Sat May 6th, 2006 at 02:53:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Surprisingly why, or to whom? (since this is your own opinion on a hypothetical poll)

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat May 6th, 2006 at 03:01:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You would be hard pressed to find a family in Russia that did not loose a member in the (not-so-distant) war. Events from this time frame are still being used by propaganda to stir Anti-Russian sentiments in our pro-American neighbors.
by blackhawk on Sat May 6th, 2006 at 03:35:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
They should form a joint scientific committee of historians, then sit down and write a history book for their school kids, like the French and Germans just did. That will stop emotional propaganda campaigns in the future. The Franco/German initiative was an absolute first, it had never been done before that two countries use the same history book in their schools. Now that it has been demonstrated that it can be done others nations are free to try it too.

"The USA appears destined by fate to plague America with misery in the name of liberty." Simon Bolivar, Caracas, 1819
by Ritter on Sat May 6th, 2006 at 03:53:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Years ago (IIRC still in the Yeltsin era), I saw a German documentary about the digging-up and identification (and local re-burial) of the remains of WWII German soldiers in Russia (and of Russian soldiers found alongside in the same mass graves/on the same battlefields) by private initiatives. The most interesting part was when they talked to locals and WWII veterans on the Soviet side. None expressed anger or disapproval. In fact, IIRC one of the veterans said instead that the Germans do the right thing and he wishes the Russian state would do similar programs for his once comrades.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sat May 6th, 2006 at 04:02:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Are you talking about groups on the German side?

I have not heard of federal programs to this effect, but there are a lot of citizen groups (Russian) doing exactly the same. From what I hear, bigger and better organized groups are getting help from the local authorities.

by blackhawk on Sat May 6th, 2006 at 04:09:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Are you talking about groups on the German side?

Yes, I recall German private initiatives.

I have not heard of federal programs to this effect, but there are a lot of citizen groups (Russian) doing exactly the same.

Good to hear! I note again that I saw that documentary years ago, still in the Yeltsin era.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sat May 6th, 2006 at 04:20:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The title of the film is:

Mahnung an die Überlebenden - Letzte Ruhestätte Sologubowka

Filmautorin: Manuela Roppert, BR-München

http://www.br-online.de/politik/ausland/themen/09762/

"The USA appears destined by fate to plague America with misery in the name of liberty." Simon Bolivar, Caracas, 1819

by Ritter on Sat May 6th, 2006 at 05:18:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Though apparently covering the same themse and emotions, that film is from 2004 - what I saw was definitely earlier, and most probably something by SPIEGEL TV.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sat May 6th, 2006 at 05:36:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
During the Second World War approximately 2.2 m German soldiers lost their lives in the USSR. About 1.88 m graves are identified by name and the relatives know their location.

The 1992 War Grave Contract between Germany and Russia was the first of its sort with a country of the former USSR. On the German side the "Deutsche Kriegsgräberfürsorge e.V."  (VDK) takes care of these graves, on the Russian side the organisation "Soldier Memorials".

The VDK conducts research in Russia to find out about places of German war dead and gives them a burial in regional cimiteries. Since 1992 there have been, or are soon going to be, completed 15 regional cimiteries.

The world biggest war cimitery is in Sologubowka near Leningrad.

A memorial chamber in the vaults of the orthodox church contains the names of the German war dead in the USSR.

The churcj and cimitery before restauration

memorial in the vaults of the church

cimitery today



"The USA appears destined by fate to plague America with misery in the name of liberty." Simon Bolivar, Caracas, 1819

by Ritter on Sat May 6th, 2006 at 05:10:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Great post, but:

cimitery

Cementery.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sat May 6th, 2006 at 05:17:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think: "cimitero"

"The USA appears destined by fate to plague America with misery in the name of liberty." Simon Bolivar, Caracas, 1819
by Ritter on Sat May 6th, 2006 at 05:20:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
no, cemetery...

cement is optional!

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sat May 6th, 2006 at 07:27:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
BTW, this one:

still stands in Budapest for Soviet soldiers. Putin laid a wreath here during his visit (he also laid wreaths at a memorial of the Hungarian dead, and the memorial for the dead of 1956).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sat May 6th, 2006 at 05:31:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I have been told by my sister that while in Russia she's often mistaken for a Georgian, which is generally a good thing. (An Italian friend of hers was mistaken for a chechen, which is generally a bad thing)

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat May 6th, 2006 at 03:03:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hey, I had the same thing happen to me.  I don't know how one differentiates between Georgian and Chechen on looks alone, but something about the swarthy factor made people think I was either Georgian ... or Spanish.  Odd.  

And I don't really understand the point being made about the Germans, but it's been my experience that Germans do not enjoy great popularity among Russians, to say the least...  That may have changed in recent years though...

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

by p------- on Sat May 6th, 2006 at 08:16:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

but it's been my experience that Germans do not enjoy great popularity among Russians, to say the least...

Actually, I agree with blackhawk that Russians do have an affinity for Germans.  Remember, a whole generation of Russians born after WWII grew up learning German in school just in case they had to fight them again.

I really believe that there's something about learning a country's language (and therefore culture) that really prevents you from hating it (there's a lesson here for insulated Americans, who never study a second language).

Russians also do not broadly connect the German people to Hitler's actions.  They had Stalin, after all, and understand perfectly well that everyday Germans are as little to blame as they are for their leaders' actions.

by slaboymni on Sat May 6th, 2006 at 08:24:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, like I said, that was my experience.  Which appears to have been a bit of an anomaly.

But I absolutely agree with your belief about the connection between learning a language and developing some respect for the country that speaks it.  And that the lack of foreign language education in America is at least partly to blame for our insularity and "exceptionalism".  

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

by p------- on Sat May 6th, 2006 at 11:57:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That does seem to be changing, though, at least in some parts of the country.  Americans are going to be forced, out of economic necessity, to learn foreign languages.  Kids in the Deep South are often learning Spanish, today -- of course driving the xenophobes up the wall.  I suspect the story is similar in Southern California.

I was required to take two years of it, back in 8th Grade and during my freshman year of high school, though we didn't learn much in the second year because of my teacher having to leave in December to deliver her baby.  (The school had a difficult time finding a decent teacher after that, and we ended up receiving several worthless ones.  Had our original teacher not left, I would likely know a great deal more than I do.  Unfortunately, I've forgotten most of what I did learn.)

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sun May 7th, 2006 at 12:06:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Germans have come on top with Spaniards and Czechs.

Why Czechs?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sat May 6th, 2006 at 03:48:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Germans stand for plenty of food and nice cars,
Spaniards for sun and beach holidays,
Czechs for a relaxed lifestyle and wit.

"The USA appears destined by fate to plague America with misery in the name of liberty." Simon Bolivar, Caracas, 1819
by Ritter on Sat May 6th, 2006 at 03:57:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
For Russians? Methinks the second and third are more of a German view.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sat May 6th, 2006 at 04:04:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You wish ;). It has more to do with the sense of close mentality with Spaniards/Germans.
by blackhawk on Sat May 6th, 2006 at 04:12:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Them being Slavs, language affinity, economic cooperation (i.e. more ability to visit the country) and lack of anti-Russian declarations on the policy level.
by blackhawk on Sat May 6th, 2006 at 04:03:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Do general feelings follow political change so fast?

What about Serbs and Slovaks?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sat May 6th, 2006 at 04:17:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
For that matter, what about Hungarians? No Slavs, but there is economic cooperation, and no official political criticism. 'Rewarded' by Putin recently with a visit (from which he flew on to meet Klaus in Prague).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sat May 6th, 2006 at 04:22:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I could not quickly find any relevant poll, and, frankly, I'm pretty sure that at least 50% percent of population will not have any opinion on the specific country or people, so stuff below is just personal experience.

In Soviet times Slavs generally had a degree of sympathy based on real or perceived cultural and historical affinity. With borders coming down, Poles managed to quickly loose this attitude. Czechs, Serbs and Slovaks did not. Between Czechs and Slovaks, Czechs somehow have a bigger profile and mentioned more often.

Hungary/Hungarians, unfortunately, do not appear often in the press and there is little common history, so I would say that the overwhelming majority do not know much about the country, so attitude should be neutral.

And yes, attitudes are relatively fluid and in large part politically motivated. On a personal level (generalising) there may be no or very little differences between a Russian and a Urkrainian, but attitude to Ukraine and Ukranian nationals  took a significant dive (about 20% from high 60th, as far as I recall) in the last year or so. Polish press stopped pedalling Poles' historical problems with Ukraine (which used to be public enemy #2 among the Poland's neighbors) and in the same period there was improvement in the attitudes.

by blackhawk on Sat May 6th, 2006 at 06:17:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Polish press stopped pedalling Poles' historical problems with Ukraine (which used to be public enemy #2 among the Poland's neighbors)

There's a grain of truth in that, but only a grain. It's accurate as far as the far right, ultra Catholic, ultra nationalist press goes, particularly Father Rydzyk's press (Radio Maryja, Nasz Dziennik). At the same time they shifted from being very pro-Russian, pro-Putin, anti-American, anti-NATO to strongly hostile to Russia and Putin and silent on America and NATO. It's clearly part of the deal that they made to ally themselves with the mainstream right (PiS). As for public enemy #2 - no. In Poland public enemy one and two are always Germany and Russia, with the order varying. All others are far behind. The mainstream press for its part has been generally quite ukrainophile since the end of communism.  There have been articles on historical disputes, particularly the boy scout cemetary in Lviv and on the ethnic cleansing of Poles in WWII, but mostly in the tone 'always remember that there's two sides to this story, and let's not forget our own crimes.'

by MarekNYC on Sat May 6th, 2006 at 06:36:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Can you find any polls? What I have seen from the polls published in Russian, up to 2003 Ukranians has pretty high negatives in Poles public opinion (#3, and top two arent' Germans or Russians).
by blackhawk on Sat May 6th, 2006 at 07:10:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Blackhawk, check out this [pdf!]. This is a 2005 Polish poll, what should interest you most is the table on pages 6-7 (pdf pages 7-8), which shows the development of the sympathy and antipathy figures over the years.

Indeed in the 2005 poll, Arabs, Gypsies and Romanians are less liked than Russians, Germans are low on the list, and dislikers of Ukrainians dropped from 51% in late 2003 (when Ukrainians were fourth most hated, with Russians only fifth) to 34% in 2004 - but then it was back to 50% in 2005, right behind dislike of Turks, Belorussians, Serbs, and just level with dislike of Jews. It seems despite the low participation, the 2005 Polish elections reflect an again increased chauvinistic paranoia in Poland...

If you know some Polish, look through this list if you can find a later poll.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sun May 7th, 2006 at 08:20:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Between Czechs and Slovaks, Czechs somehow have a bigger profile and mentioned more often.

Interesting, I would have thought the opposite, for two reasons: a longer Russia-friendly line until the recent years, and the even closer economic ties due to pipelines.

Hungary/Hungarians, unfortunately, do not appear often in the press and there is little common history

Indeed IIRC only from 1848 (the Tsar's military intervention on behalf of the Habsburgs against the Hungarian revolutionary government), and the Hungarian soldiers fighting alongside Hitler's troops were active in what is now Ukraine. Nevertheless, I wonder if you know anything about how the latter's conduct is remembered. (I once met a veteran - he was a front radioman - at a funeral who got out on front leave just before the Red Army crushed them, who told long stories, which made me curious.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sun May 7th, 2006 at 08:36:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't think Hungary's role in the invasion and occupation is well known to the general public. First of all, it was not much of consequence in the bigger scheme of things, and secondly, it was glossed over in the Soviet times due to internationalist ideology and, more important, due to the fact that Hungary was an ally.

Now the increasing volume of textbooks is written with the help of Western NGOs, and new Americanized generation will be sure that Hungary was an ally against Hitler all along.

I know only of the situation with the occupation in the Voronezh region (2nd Hungarian Army, if I'm not mistaken). Locals still do not remember Hungarian units kindly, and recall mostly the war crimes: burning down hundreds of POWs alive, summary execution of civilians (including children), destruction of the entire villages with all the people and so on. People were trying to move to the areas under German control, that should be telling you something.

Recently Hungarian government was financing the reburial projects for the Hungarians fallen in the region, and in spite of the strong authorities support, even now it was met with unusual hostility by the population. People see those sites as being constructed at the expense of the fallen Soviet soldiers (i.e. at the time when "good guys" are still not given proper treatment and burial, or authorities are claiming they do not have money to maintain existing monuments, occupiers are getting land and pereferential treatment).

by blackhawk on Mon May 8th, 2006 at 03:51:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks, just the kind of details I was curious about.

In Hungary itself, the history of the 2nd Army was mostly taboo in communist times, the only context it came up in was in the biographies of some famous Jewish Hungarians - Jews were drafted for 'work duty', e.g. the kind-of-slave-labour of digging the trenches and such under enemy fire. After 1989, suddenly the loss of the 2nd Army was remembered (by the local Right), and also how most of the captives didn't return from Siberia, but I could barely find anything about what they actually did there - and I didn't suspect anything good...

For your interest, the stories of that veteran - who BTW was totally short-term-memory senile, everytime something stopped him he'd start telling his story from some other point in time - I mentioned were mostly about being shot at, as he wasn't a front fighter, but he also told of the horror of walking into a village with the street full of dead people.

You wrote earlier that some German allies were less feared than the Germans and Baltics, I wonder who beyond the Spanish that were. For, I read somewhere that the worst single incident of retaliatory mass killing was executed by the Romanian army in Odessa, when Romanian dictator Antonescu received erroneous initial reports of high casualties of a partizan bomb attack on the Odessa headquarters, and ordered 100-something killed for each reported casualty.

Now the increasing volume of textbooks is written with the help of Western NGOs, and new Americanized generation will be sure that Hungary was an ally against Hitler all along.

I understand the sarcasm, but given that Hungary wasn't an ally of the Soviet Union throughout WWII (local attemts at a get-out were stiffled by the Germans), unlike Romania which managed to change sides, that would be a bit difficult...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Mon May 8th, 2006 at 05:26:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The degree of what was happening is unimaginable. Total casualties across all the countries must be 65+ million. Russia still can not decide on the number of casulaties of this war - was it 23, 25 or 27 million. Only military losses stand at 9-11 million, and the rest are civilians.

By the and of the war USSR had as POWs (undoubtedly, unexact figures; I apologize for any possible mistakes):

Germans - ~2mln;
Japanese (few months after) - 550 thousands;
Hungarians - 514 thousands;
Romanians - 187 thousands;
Austrians - 157 thousands;
Czechs (I assume, Slovaks included) - 70 thousands;
Polacks - 60 thousands;
Italians - 49 thousands;
French - 23 thousands;
Yugoslavs - 22 thousands;
Moldavans - 14 thousands;
Dutch  - 5 thousands;
Fins - 2.3 thousand;
Belgians - 2 thousand;
Luxembourgians - 1.6 thousand;
Danish - 0.4 thousand;
Spanish - 0.4 thousand.

At the same time, during the war the following USSR ethniticities were serving in one or another capacity (by estimates, only half of them were carrying arms) in the German army, ethnic or auxiliary units:

Ukranians 250 thousands;
Latvians 150 thousands;
Estonians 90 thousands;
Belorussians 70 thousands;
Kazaks (Russians) 70 thousands;
Central Asians 70 thousands;
Azerbaijani 40 thousands;
Lithuanians 50 thousands;
Georgians 25 thousands;
Armenians 20 thousands;
North Caucasians 30 thousands;
Volga Tatars 12 thousands;
Crimea Tatars 10 thousands;
Kalmyks 7 thousands;

Large number of those were involved in population "pacification".

I understand the sarcasm, but given that Hungary wasn't an ally of the Soviet Union throughout WWII (local attemts at a get-out were stiffled by the Germans), unlike Romania which managed to change sides, that would be a bit difficult...

Looks at the numbers above. Even with high school textbooks w/o bias, but from Russian perspective, if you try to integrate the story of 20-30 nations into the narative, Hungary or Romania story may be lost.

by blackhawk on Mon May 8th, 2006 at 07:16:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
By the and of the war USSR had as POWs

Historical note: part of your figures include people who weren't real POWs but were collected from villages after special orders from Stalin or the Red Army leaders.

Czechs (I assume, Slovaks included) - 70 thousands;

They should've been treated separately - the Czech part was eaten by Germany long before the attack on the Soviet Union, while the Slovak part functioned as semi-independent ally until the Slovak National Uprising (which I shall diary about on the 62th anniversary in a few months). (For that reason, I'd also guess more Slovak POWs than Czech ones.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Mon May 8th, 2006 at 08:03:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Russia still can not decide on the number of casulaties of this war - was it 23, 25 or 27 million.

I believe the lower numbers correspond to figures with dead at Soviet hands/from famine on the areas never occupied by Germany and/or in areas not always part of the Soviet Union [Baltics, former East Poland etc] and/or military dead on the German side subtracted (altogether some 7 million IIRC). The Gorbachev-ordered revised total from before/after population numbers was 26.6 million, as for estimates from various casualty statistics, for example Erlikman in 2004 arrived at 28.2 million.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Mon May 8th, 2006 at 08:58:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Stumbled across the following numbers: now 6% think that Hungary was an ally in WWII, 7% that the it was the side of the Axis, and the rest don't know.
by blackhawk on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 06:33:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Wow... I'd guess the figures would be different in the Ukraine.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 06:42:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't know of any polls, but the Spanish left would be sympathetic and grateful to the Russians for hosting thousands of children as Civil War refugees (los niños de la guerra: the children of the war). Franco was rabidly anti-communist, but in particular anti-Russian, and he sent the Condor division to fight alongside the Nazis on the Eastern front.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat May 6th, 2006 at 06:37:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sorry, wrong name... The Condor Legion was a Luftwaffe division which Hitler sent to fight on Franco's side during the Spanish Civil War. Franco reciprocated by contributing the Division Azul (Blue division) to Operation Barbarossa.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat May 6th, 2006 at 06:40:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, the Spanish and Italian left are still rememebered in Russia, I at least (wrong/uncharacteristic cycles?: Moscow, several high-rated Universities) met a few kids and grandkids of them.

As for Blue division, it's not remembered badly: neither hiwis or national units from across a Europe could put much of fight; But main thing is that peasants in villages around Leningrad were recollecting that Blue division's soldiers's attitude was much more humane than that of German/Baltic units.

by blackhawk on Sun May 7th, 2006 at 05:13:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Does Russia see itself as part of Europe or part of Asia?

Given that China needs oil and gas and Russia has it, what would happen if Putin decided that the Chinese were likely to be more reliable and less ideologically vexatious customers than the EU?

How likely is this as an outcome?

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sat May 6th, 2006 at 04:34:13 PM EST
that's exactly what's being said right now.

But you just have the small issue of building 5,000 km of pipelines in the most God-forsaken place - and paying for it.

For the practical aspect, consider that 1 meter of pipeline weighs about 1 ton. So, to build a 5,000 km of pipeline in the middle of absolutely nowhere (i.e. no roads within 500 km) in, say, 2 years, you need to lay 15km per day (considering, optimistically, that these places in Siberia are accessible half the year) , or bring 15,000 tons per day at the exact location you need it - every single spring and summer day for 2 years. That's an incredible logistical exercise.

And again, you need someone to pay for it. The Chinese, so far, are NOT willing to pay the market price for gas, and certainly even less willing to commit to such variable prices for the requisite 15-20 years.

Which means no pipeline.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sat May 6th, 2006 at 05:02:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And you have to deal with permafrost.
by asdf on Sat May 6th, 2006 at 11:43:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Culturally the majority considers themselves Europeans or, more generally, part of the West.

As for China, the recent gas spat, and moreover, interpretation of it by the media and elites of EU and US clearly showed that Russia needs diversification of its customers. I'm pretty sure that in 6-8 years gas (see Jerome's post for the problems, though) and oil pipelines will be up and running from Russia to China.

And one more thing: from my perspective, the more reasonable gas/oil policy for Russia would be conservation. Russia does not need all the oil and gas money that is coming into the country now, and dozens of billions are just being held in dollars w/o any use slowly loosing value. Gazprom should slow rate of extraction and increase internal prices so that ppl can pay more attention to the efficiency.
 

by blackhawk on Sat May 6th, 2006 at 05:36:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Fully agree.

I also agree that the pipelines to China will eventually happen, but I'm not sure exactly when. I am not as close as I used to be to their management, so I cannot ascertain for sure their internal determination to get it done. It's pretty much impossible from press reports and official speeches to know that. The only thing that makes me doubt that it will happen in the next 10 years is China's apparent refusal to pay the necessary prices.

As to conservation, increasing domestic prices, and reducing extraction - yes, absolutely.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sat May 6th, 2006 at 06:00:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Just few years ago Russia considered itself part of Europe. It is a case even now - the main trading partner of Russia is EU, majority of population live to the west from Ural. However globalization gives Russia tool to diversify its economic and political ties with the world. Partially this shift is justified by ideological difference with Europe - according to polls most Russians have conservative views. These people are main supporters of president Putin. Their identity is different from rising identity of "Old Europeans" and imported from US identity of Eastern Europeans.
What outcome will be? Already in Russian media there are articles trying to paint patchwork  of Eastern European countries as something insignificant in all senses. Russia will move closer to China if Western European countries drop their objections to American policy and lead EU to union with US.    

     

by FarEasterner on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 12:17:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Their identity is different from rising identity of "Old Europeans" and imported from US identity of Eastern Europeans.

Apparently in this point, the Russian press adopts the spin of the American mainstream media and politics. In truth, while political elites might have switched from servility towards Soviet rulers to servility towards US rulers, the identity of the people is a mix of the same "Old European" identity and own characteristics coming from being post-'communist' countries. (For example ,the Iraq War was rejected by high margins in the population like in 'Old Europe', unlike in the USA.)

Already in Russian media there are articles trying to paint patchwork  of Eastern European countries as something insignificant in all senses.

Do they? How did the Russian media cover Putin's visit to Hungary and the Czech Republic 2-3 months ago?

I note such a press behaviour would reinforce my impression of a strategic mistake committed by policymakers and political thinkers in Russia: focusing on big units, big countries, and not courting (both the population and elites) of 'insignificant' smaller countries. Unfortunately, the US does just that. So, while small countries would have reasons to be equally paranoid about all large countries, leaving the field open to the US (and Western Europe, though that owrks differently) leads to the supression of one and stoking-up of the other, which hurts Russia's interests in aggregate. Methinks Putin has started to figure that out, but, even if US influence is moving in the same direction, there is still too much focus on just the elites.

lead EU to union with US.

No chance in hell, even if the leaders behave like vassals. In some fields the USA is more like Russia than the EU, in others the EU is more like Russia than the USA.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 07:30:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Media remarks about "Insignificance" of Eastern European countries may be humiliating for their people and especially for political elites but these remarks may be at least partially justified. Mainstream Russian press almost have no news from Eastern Europe but antiRussian outbursts and complains, complains to deputy of General Secretary of American party when he visits region with inspection and gathers local princes. Iraq did not bring them any spoils, they are very far from participation in African, Latin American, Asian matters. Their only hope - be important part of anti Russian activities and negotiate some concessions and investments from West.

I think anybody in place of Moscow would try to ignore them, avoiding them as a transit link with the West if possible. That's why Russia engages in Turkey-Greece-Italy activities and through Scandinavia or directly with Germany.
Putin's visits to Czech republic and Hungary showed that part of their elites already feel confident against Russian threat and as junior partners of Germany they may try to restore some economic cooperation with the former metropoly. But it still premature to say that their relations with Moscow improved. However these visits also show that Kremlin patiently observes these countries exploring all possibilities of breaking anti Russian front.

I was never interested in EU-US ties and may probably express silly view. Old Europe felt unity with US all long years after WWII however recent military adventures in Iraq created rift. To heal it EU has no influence over Washington and problems with Eastern Europe. The only choice Old Europe has is go back, fall in line. EU3 agreement with tough Washington line regarding Iran shows Old Europe extracted lessons from unnecessary rift with US over Iraq.  

by FarEasterner on Sun May 14th, 2006 at 07:34:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I found this phantastic story about a group of Russian war veterans who, after a visit to their war dead, spontaneously decide to go and to find out for themselves what that new German war cementary is all about:

Für die Kriegsveteranen der sowjetischen 124. Schützendi- vision ist der 21. Januar ein besonderes Datum. An diesem Tag wurde im Jahr 1944 der Ort Mga befreit, wofür die Divi- sion mit dem Titel "Mga-Division" ausgezeichnet wurde.

Schon seit vielen Jahren stellt die St. Petersburger Stadt- verwaltung den Veteranen einen Bus zur Verfügung, mit dem sie die Kampfstätten besuchen, um dort ihrer gefallenen Kameraden zu gedenken. In diesem Jahr war die Fahrt ungewöhnlich. Sie hat sich in einen Weg des Gedenkens und der Versöhnung über den Soldaten Gräbern verwandelt - obwohl anfangs nur die Kranzniederlegung an den sow- jetischen Obelisken auf den Iwanowskij- und Newskij- Brückenköpfen sowie auf den Sinjawino-Höhen vorgesehen war.

Ohne Vorankündigung entstand im Bus Streit um den im September vorigen Jahres eingeweihten deutschen Solda- tenfriedhof im Dorf Sologubowka bei Mga. Einige Teilneh- mer waren entschieden feindlich gestimmt. Die angeheizte Atmosphäre entspannte sich dann ein wenig, als sie am sowjetischen Mahnmal einen Kranz bemerkten, den der deutsche Generalkonsul dort am Volkstrauertag niedergelegt hatte.

In Mga wurden die Teilnehmer der Fahrt von der Leitung des dortigen Veteranenverbandes empfangen. Und wieder erhob sich die Diskussion über den deutschen Friedhof. Denn die gepflegte deutsche Kriegsgräber-stätte ist wie ein Splitter im Herz der Veteranen, wenn sie an die vernachlässigten sowjetischen Gedenkstätten denken ...

Jemand schlug vor: ,,Lasst uns nicht mehr darüber diskutie- ren. Fahren wir lieber dort hin und überzeugen wir uns vor Ort, was die Deutschen gebaut haben."

Der Bus blieb vor dem Eingangstor zum Friedhof stehen, und da konnte man das ganze Panorama sehen. Trotz seiner Größe sieht der Friedhof schlicht aus. In der Mitte ragt das große Kreuz empor. Die kleineren Kreuze, immer drei in einer Gruppe, stehen auf dem ganzen Friedhofs ge- lände. Unter ihnen liegen die Wehrmachtssoldaten begra- ben.

Heute sind es mehr als 22 000. In wenigen Jahren wird sich diese Zahl auf 80 000 erhöhen, und dann wird der Friedhof zur größten deutschen Kriegsgräberstätte werden. Die Namen der identifizierten deutschen Soldaten sind alphabetisch mit den Geburts- und Sterbedaten auf großen Steintafeln festgehalten.

Diese Tatsache machte viele Veteranen nachdenklich, und sie verglichen sie mit der Verewigung des Gedenkens an ihre Kameraden. Der Streit verstummte allmählich.

Und da gab es eine ungewöhnliche Erscheinung: In der Mitte dis Friedhofes riss die Nebelwand auf. In der Januarsonne begann das schwarze Kreuz seine Farbe zu ändern - als ob es von innen zu leuchten begänne und dann golden aufflammte. Einige der Anwesenden bekreuzigten sich. Jemand sagte: ,,Das ist ein Zeichen des Herrn!" Ein anderer sagte: ,,Wir müssen darauf antworten ..."

Als wir die deutsche Kriegsgräberstätte verließen, lag der Nebel immer noch über den Gräbern. Das Kreuz flammte noch in Gold. Am Denkmal lagen die Blumen der russischen Kriegsveteranen. Eine rote Schleife umgürtete die Figur der "Trauernden Mutter" (Madonna von Nagasaki), auf der in Russisch geschrieben stand: ,,Unseren im Kampf um Leningrad gefallenen Kameraden."

Jurij Lebedev

photos:

http://www.collasius.org/ZEITZEUGEN/1941-00-dose/41dose36.htm

"The USA appears destined by fate to plague America with misery in the name of liberty." Simon Bolivar, Caracas, 1819

by Ritter on Sat May 6th, 2006 at 05:37:56 PM EST
The photos are great, too.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sat May 6th, 2006 at 05:50:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'll stand by my earlier opinions that Putin is slowly reducing freedoms in Russia, and that the war in Chechnya, whatever the context and the appalling actions of some of the Chechens, is little short of genocide and needs to be condemned as such. I'll also restate my opinion that Putin and his cronies are looting the Russian public resources just as much as the oligarchs around Yelstin (if not more) - but are lucky that there is so much loot these days thanks to higher oil prices that they can both loot and redistribute enough to the population to keep it happy.

On Chechnya topic: As succinctly put by Barbara Bush, "war is not nice". But mentioning genocide in the context of Russian Army actions in Chechnya is dishonest. Genocide implies policy of ethnic cleansing and complicity of the top chains of command. Neither were present. To give you a sense what genocide is in this context, look at what was happening before the first war, in 1990-94: 250 thousands of non-Chechens were expelled from the republic, 20 thousands were killed. And that is during the "peace" times. Going slightly off on a tangent, this was little noticed either by press (both Russian and Western) or by a numerous human rights NGOs active in Russia. Makes one wonder about their exact definition of "human".

Government at the moment is going over its head to punish real (and perceived) crimes by the Army against the population. At this point it looks more like a campaign. See Ulman's case or Arakcheev's (he has a alibi for the crime he is accused of). Even after court or jury acquittal the government brings a case to court again and again.

Anyhow, mentioning Chechnya right now is too late: for all intents and purposes the war is pretty much over. The republic is more peaceful than it ever was in the last 15 years, I think homicide rate is lower than in many other regions. As for polical changes, it's up to Chechens: they have the local power, and it's up to them to vote in whoever they want, neither you, me or Putin are going to help them much.

by blackhawk on Sat May 6th, 2006 at 06:57:24 PM EST
the ultimate public-relations and ad conglomerate, noted for, among other things, serving as middlemen when the U.S. government bribes journalists. The srtated purpose is to soften rancor against its G8 participation. See last Monday's FT, front page.
by macdust on Sat May 6th, 2006 at 08:15:47 PM EST
Russia is the enemy

First, I agree with, understand and respect all points about Russia and Putin said here.
Second, why I feel need to add my comment here - because this forum seems to me a place where people don't waste their and others time on stupidities and stereotypes, they try to compose approximate view of the world, of EU and surroundings. I hope my (probably wrong) opinion will help you in this in spite of some words may seem to be acknowledgment of harsh realities.

Characterization of Putin by proximity1 seems to me good, though many Russians would disagree with rather flattering idealization of Putin (he is smart, cunning, determined, unscrupulous, violent and dangerous). Some think of him as grey, ordinary and weak ruler. Weak ruler - because he could not enjail other oligarchs - looters of Yeltsyn era and stopped on Khodorkovsky. Greyness comes from his supposedly Prussian predisposition to militarism and parades.

Putin has survived numerous critical situations, two of them were most important. These are crisis about NTV takeover (news channel owned to one of the oligarchs, Mr Gussinsky) and Nord Ost theatre siege when relatives of almost 1000 trapped by Chechens spectators demanded from Putin to come to terms with Chechen terrorists and withdraw Russian troops from Chechnya.
Both crises happened in Moscow and got big publicity to talk about them now but very important for us to make assessment of Putin.

proximity1's characterization rather points to ideals that Putin pursue, he wants to be cunning, determined etc. This says a lot about his instincts, undemocratic in nature. I wouldn't agree that he is a weak ruler because he is legalist and he wants to achieve all goals in legal way. The same way was used by French king Philip IV to justify his doubtful acquisitions. There was no need to enjail other oligarchs if they agree to part with loot. Abramovich was stripped off Sibneft, Lukoil owners shall be persuaded. Khodorkovsky did not want to be convinced that way and foolishly believed his looted holdings are protected by law. Laws may change and he ended in Siberian colony. There were dark stories about Khodorkovsky empire in Siberia, allegedly he used to order murders of business and government enemies of Yukos. So it seems Khodorkovsky was caught in his own trap - he just faced in Putin bigger shark.

What else about Putin? Some think he charmed Western business executives with efficiency he proved in restoring control over Russia Inc. Love of Western businessmen may be partially justified that he patiently waited for the moment when Western money poured in Russia.

Putin is not polished and refined like French politicians. His rough manners and dark humour reveal his "Prussian" background. Everybody remembers his "mochit v sortire" (to beat terrorists in toilets). In march he launched campaign against corruption in State Customs Service by such words "Customs and private companies copulate in commercial orgasmos". Since all over Russia from Moscow to Vladivostok many custom officers were arrested by prosecutors on corruption charges.

It's too early to judge of his supposed greyness or greatness because he did not make choice of his life yet.  All great leaders give their nations sense of mission for decades. Russia today does not know who is its enemy - The West, only US, China, Iran or other. What steps Russia should take, what countries may be natural allies in fulfilling this strategy nobody knows. Very probably this strategy already exists in Putin's mind, but it was not made public for obvious reason - it's not appropriate time yet.

Recently I found one poll about what Russians think of their enemies and allies. On enemies list besides US and China small countries like Latvia and Georgia were prominent. On allies front Belarus, Germany and China found some supporters. The most interesting thing - the overwhelming majority of Russians did not answer at all. Greyness or greatness of Putin will depend on whether Russia under him will find its mission for XXI century or won't.  

To be continued.

by FarEasterner on Sat May 6th, 2006 at 08:30:12 PM EST
All great leaders give their nations sense of mission for decades. Russia today does not know who is its enemy

Why do you think a sense of mission needs an enemy? I view most Russians' not answering who is the enemy as a positive thing.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sun May 7th, 2006 at 08:25:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
BTW, welcome to EuroTrib! I look forward to the continuation you promised.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sun May 7th, 2006 at 08:25:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Do Russians think that Putin handled the Kursk catastrophe, Moscow Apartment bombings, theatre hostage crisis and Beslan School crisis properly?

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun May 7th, 2006 at 09:49:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Kursk - no, the sense was that he should have been involved more actively and early;

Moscow Apartment bombings - start of second war with Chechnya deemed a proper response;

Nord-Ost - proper handling, breakdown in communication between security and emergency/medical forces; Putin was not blamed for this.

Beslan - proper handling at his level, massive problems with local militia and leadership/coordination in anti-terror center that was setup in Beslan. Once again, Putin was not blamed.

by blackhawk on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 07:07:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I have heard that the people of Beslan are mightily unhappy with Putin.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 07:10:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Mightly unhappy is an understatement.

They are blaming everyone: Putin, federal and local authorities, "Alpha" and "Vympel" (who lost 11 man), hostages that survived, school principal (surviving hostage herself, but she is being suspected in the town of hiring terrorists for renovations which enabled them to hide weapons in the school in advance). Lots of anger and conspirology.

Many of "Mothers of Beslan" activists gave substantial amounts of money to the scam artist, Grabovoy, who was promising to resurect the kids.

by blackhawk on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 07:52:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I just found out that he now claims to be the 2nd coming of Christ.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 09:15:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
 Авдавыдов (Avdavydov),

 "спацебо (spacebo/thanks)"

  I would like to second DoDo's words of welcome and hope that you'll be a regular contributor here.

  [ the "спацебо", above, completely exhausts my vocabulary of Russian.  One day, I'm going to visit Russia, though! ]

"In such an environment it is not surprising that the ills of technology should seem curable only through the application of more technology..." John W Aldridge

by proximity1 on Sun May 7th, 2006 at 12:57:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Russia is the enemy Part II

In order to continue let me add some adjustments and definitions. Also I would like to explain my personal feeling towards object of analysis.

Putin's instincts are not democratic as I said. It does not mean that I attached negative meaning to it and presume definite consequences. Democratic values is Western invention on basis of liberal ideology. It means Putin intentions are not Western naturally, that's all, nothing more. Another question is whether the ruler with undemocratic tendencies may actually contribute to transition of his country from communism to democracy. Historians were interested in Chilean and Spanish experience in XX century.

I also found in Part I one unsubstantiated statement about Lukoil, I just add it as a fictional example. In fact I don't know what exactly will happen with Lukoil owners, very probably nothing scary. Lukoil management was clever enough to survive in chaotic Yeltsyn era and under Putin regime. Lukoil was one of quasi state companies, the same as Gazprom, but its managers could privatize it fully. They showed deep loyalty to Kremlin and readiness to finanse various social projects and perhaps reelection campaigns. This feature of quasi state companies a la "blue chips" any investor in Russian stocks should bear in mind. The last and final owner of such companies is Kremlin, who can put on them unexpected burden any time. Though recently some investors convinced themselves that Kremlin (read Putin) ownership of blue chips is good for stock market.

Then I would like to explain my interest in covering Putin and Russian theme. My interests (and work) lie far from them, first letter was improvisation and caused a sort of embarrassment for continuation. From what angle I should write on this topic? I have not been collecting any relevant information and I have got only my memory and few academic articles like Putin and The Middle East by Robert O. Freedman. Run of the mill publications in press do not help much because of ideologically conditioned noises. So I would warn readers about my possible mistakes and misjudgments.

To start with let's return to his handling of crises. In NTV saga Putin wanted to reassert control over information channels (everybody knows that in modern world any ruler has to control information flows and in Europe and America ruling elites tightly control mass media). NTV had talented staff unfortunately misused by Mr Gusinsky for personal gains (the same applies to Mr Berezovsky who controlled ORT). Mr Putin tried to win journalists over but to no avail. He tried to convince them that his strategy is good for Russia, they did not listen, accused him in authoritarianism and even found protector in Mr Gorbachev.

After 6 years his strategy proved to be good for Russia (on the whole with some mixed results, more about them later), journalists in part emigrated, in part found new jobs and quarrel basically with each other.

Numerous crises like Kursk highlighted problems of Russian state but Putin can acquit himself they were not his misdeeds, most were accumulated from Soviet and Yeltsyn time.

Putin came to power on nationalist feelings and he suffers if he could not protect ordinary citizens. However strong pressure would be he did not bend as Nord Ost tragedy showed.    

If Putin won't change Constitution his rule will last till spring 2008.
Next comes perhaps questionable description of results of his rule from usual Russian point of view. Who are Putin's friends and rivals?

Oligarchs like Berezovsky, Gusinsky, Khodorkovsky were discredited, went into exile or jail. Kasyanov, Khakamada, Yavlinsky, other democrats copy party materials from each other trying to steal few left supporters. Communists in disarray, their leader Mr Zyuganov is simply unelectable like Mr Heyg (probably I mispelled his name) from Conservative party in UK.

Two critical voices today belong to Mr Illarionov and Mr Kasparov. About political acumen of former chess champion Russians don't know much, I've heard he was columnist in Wall Street Journal, American version of Financial Times. I have read some of WSJ staff and was surprised by highly ideological and propaganda content, useless for business executives.
Mr Illarionov credibility has suffered from his manipulation with statistics and doubtful comparisons (like correspondence between level of political freedom and economical growth).

Putin's friends and supporters we can range on three categories. Firstly come faceless siloviks from St Petersburg with KGB background. Secondly there are some liberals with imperialist mind. Thirdly there are armies of bureaucracy, eternal participants of fair-weather parties. There are rumours, speculations of turf wars between these groups but nothing came public. They know very well to what extent they can air disagreements and grievances.

Cultivated by Putin spirit of deep loyalty to ruling regime was complemented by mixed efficiency in use of supporters.

Take Yeltsyn era prime ministers. Mr Chernomyrdin was sent as envoy to Ukraine and successfully ruined Russian-Ukraine relations. Former vicepremier Mr Nemtsov famous for stupid outbursts like giving his mobile number to Japanese businessmen who would want to invest in Russia also found passion for Ukrainian politics supporting anti Russian forces.

Mr Chubais is sitting pretty in United Energy Systems. Mr Kirienko (who as 29 years old prime minister declared default in 1998) was given job as representative in Volga region then was appointed as Minatom head and now talk up Iranians. Mr Primakov retired flexing his muscles only for his old Muslim contacts. Yeltsyn and his family, Gorbachev and other failures turned into Hello celebrities. They were treated by Putin with respect. Even Lenin's embalmed body still lies in Mausoleum on Red Square perhaps left in the same place on unconscious spiritual reasons.      

There were some speculations that Putin's aides Mr Ivanov (defense minister) and Mr Medvedev (head of Gazprom) are contenders for 2008 elections with the former having upper hand despite mishandling of Sychev case and mixed results in reshaping Russian army. These were political up-to-date results of Putin's presidency.

To be continued

by FarEasterner on Mon May 8th, 2006 at 12:01:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
(everybody knows that in modern world any ruler has to control information flows and in Europe and America ruling elites tightly control mass media)

No, in most cases (e.g. except for Berlusconi) it's not tight control, the beauty of it (for the elites) is that the mainstream media can be made to write what suits the elite by making media representatives part of the elite and make them dependent on government sources. What's more, different elites still influence different segments of the mass media this way, which can argue against each other. What's more, there are still voices even in the mass media not too beholden even to the elites on their side. So even if it's not a pretty picture, Putin supporters shouldn't deceive themselves with such an equivocation - most Western governments do not have a near-complete control of information flows.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Mon May 8th, 2006 at 05:51:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
 DoDo's points are important ones in understanding the less-than-monopolistic control over mass media in, for lack of a better term, "the West".

 I especially agree with his insight that the mass media powers really are now a part of the élite political structure rather than determined outsiders who remain critical of the government in power, regardless of its party.  And, moreover, this place, this rôle of theirs in the political power structure, while not new, is now something that is more taken for granted even among the professional journalist class.  Many in private--and even some in public would admit: of course we're part of the power structure."  The term "the Fourth Estate" was coined to designate the press in general as a main player in the tripartite power structure: executive, legislative, and judicial.

 In another sense, though, I believe your assertion is basically correct: (everybody knows that in modern world any ruler has to control information flows and in Europe and America ruling elites tightly control mass media).

  This requires some explanation as it goes very much against the beloved assumptions of the vast majority of people in western democracies.  

  We can quibble about what exactly "tight control" means but, at a fundamental level, the point which we are not comfortable addressing is this: what would any of our western democratic governments do about the supposedly sacrosanct freedom of speech and of the press if the day should ever come when genuine and strong democratic impulses arose and challenged directly and seriously the basic operational control which a relatively small minority of exceptionally wealthy people are able to consistently exercise while leaving in place sufficient outward trappings of democratic governance to obtain the vast majority's passive and tacit acceptance of the political system's manner of working?

  My view is that, except in a very few isolated incidents, this situation has never actually come about, and so the only honest answer is that we really don't know.  We do know that when, over our history, there have been various isolated instances in which popular sentiment has coalesced into movements which appeared to pose a real potential for challenging the existing power structure, the reaction of official government has typically been as swift and as decisive and forceful as those in office deemed necessary-- [note: I have not verified these examples, they're off the top of my head] cf: Haymarket riots; Ludlow (? n) mine massacre http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludlow_massacre ; Bonus Army movement, under, I believe, Hoover http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonus_army; ]

  Thus, in its most basic sense, I have to agree generally with your view expressed as

 " everybody knows that in modern world any ruler has to control information flows and in Europe and America ruling elites tightly control mass media"

with the only debatable matter being where that very variable factor, "tight control" happens to lie at any given moment.

  These days, there is little need for tight controls to be exercised since so much of the major and so-called "quality press" (of whatever medium) are so pathetically obsequious toward their counterparts in the political power structure.  

It's important to keep in mind, however, that this swinging pendulum of the press's contrariness or obedience can return toward the contrarian pole; the absurdly compliant press of today could conceivably recover some of its self-respect and start making life much more difficult for elected and appointed officials--as looks a bit more likely now to happen in the short term.

"In such an environment it is not surprising that the ills of technology should seem curable only through the application of more technology..." John W Aldridge

by proximity1 on Mon May 8th, 2006 at 09:04:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I believe you focused too much on Anglo-Saxon examples above. A spectacular case was the SPIEGEL affair in (West) Germany, when the powers-that-be lost the marathon struggle against leakers and journalists; while in Italy, the leftist press could cover the fall of the First Republic and its elite in the Clean Hands operation (well, at least halfway fall, but surely a serious challenge).

BTW, I haven't said so in the original comment but say it now, the distinctio between tight and indirect media cotrol is important for me because the latter is much more insidious, with too many people not suspecting propaganda, whereas with thight control, many people will assume it.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Mon May 8th, 2006 at 09:41:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

 "...you focused too much on Anglo-Saxon examples above."

  By necessity, hélas.  ;^)

  That's why I'm attentive to your corrective counsel!

"In such an environment it is not surprising that the ills of technology should seem curable only through the application of more technology..." John W Aldridge

by proximity1 on Mon May 8th, 2006 at 09:52:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Tight or indirect control, the result is one and you know it. Let's search all articles on Gazprom or Putin in google or alltheweb you find that 99% - repetition of few ideologically spoiled articles of few authors (mostly AP, AFP or Reuters authors). However repetition of lie does not make it truth and then too often we see mistakes made by rulers on false data.
Russian media is also inderectly controlled by Kremlin, jounalists simply know what they are expected to do. 100% control was not achieved though and for example racial attacks in Russia became prime news on all proPutin channels.  
by FarEasterner on Mon May 8th, 2006 at 11:31:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There were some speculations that Putin's aides Mr Ivanov (defense minister) and Mr Medvedev (head of Gazprom) are contenders for 2008 elections

How is their view by the public?

Which politicians are popular in Russia presently beyond Putin?

By the way, what is now the relationship between the Kreml and the capital Moscow's leaders?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Mon May 8th, 2006 at 05:56:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Top 6 most trusted:

Putin 40%
Shoygu (Minister of Emergency Situations) 18%
Zhirinovsky (Duma vice-speaker) 12%
Ivanov (Minister of Defence) 10%
Luzhkov (regional governor) 9%
Tuleev (regional governor) 7%

Top 6 least trusted:

Chubais (head of state energy company) 22%
Zhirinovsky (Duma vice-speaker) 16%
Zuganov (communist leader) 13%
Yeltsin (ex-president) 12%
Berezovsky (ex-National Security Advisor, oligarch) 12%
Abramovich (regional governor, oligarch) 9%

Will vote for the president:

Zhirinovsky 18%
Medvedev 18%
Ivanov 17%
Zuganov 16%
Glaz'ev 7%
Ryzhkov 5%
Rogozin 5%
Kas'janov 4%
Javlinsky 4%

according to Levada Center, in Russian.

I think of those US call Ryzhkov, Kas'janov and Javlinsky "democrats".

As for Luzhkov, speculation is that he'll step down before 2008 and will retire with his wife's billions.

by blackhawk on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 04:17:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So there is silent toleration between Luzhkov and Putin at present, I take?

Shoygu (Minister of Emergency Situations) 18%

The one I didn't knew is second most trusted... But I take he is a lightweight, no chance of nomination for President?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 07:00:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, Luzhkov was planning on being president, but Putin got ahead of him.

For Shoygu, his dislikes from the same poll are at zero. Only Tuleev also has zero negative rating.

He is not involved in politics, and for the last 15 years, under Yeltsin and Putin, was running Ministry of Emergency Situations (includes Civil Defense). When something happens, he comes to the rescue and generally gets lots of good PR.

At the same time his ministry has lots of resources and money: reconstruction contracts, land and bomb shelters from the Soviet times across all the Russia, lots of even heavy weaponry, etc.

I don't think anyone knows for sure what his ministry's budget is, but it is rumoured to be bigger and more secretive than Ministry's of Defence.

I just don't know what his plans are for 2008 and if he  is content with his little empire.

by blackhawk on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 08:11:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I saw Zhirinovski as the #3 most popular and thought "holy crap!", then I was him as the #1 least trusted (50% more untrusted than trusted) and calmed down a bit.

Are the low percentages of trust for everyone other than Putin down to name recognition?

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 07:05:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The way I read it, the question was about whom people trust most and least - e.g. different people were the alternatives in the question, not trust/distrust.

Regarding Zhirinovski, also consider the Le Pen effect: he may be third due to the votes of the wide majority going many ways, but that doesn't mean he stands a chance in hell in a runoff.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 07:35:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The majority have a pretty good name recognition, just not a positive one. I think the general sense is that politicians from Yeltsin's time should go; at the same time at the moment neither Duma (parliament) nor the Government enjoy high approval ratings, and that reflects on number of politicians.

Some of the ratings are managed to keep them lower. Say, when Rogozin (Rodina) became too popular, his party was denied elections in few regions and was quickly labeled as a "fascist" in the press.

by blackhawk on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 08:58:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
 I'd be interested in your responses to these questions:

  What do you think Poutine would like his political legacy to be?  In other words, what would he really most like to accomplish (and remembered for) assuming that he had the powers necessary to do so?

 as a corollary--

  what constitute Poutine's major rivals to his exercise of political power?  Is he still opposed by a powerful group of corporate interests inside Russia?  Other political actors, groups? Some actual or potential resistance from within the military?  A public opinion which constrains his actions?

 

"In such an environment it is not surprising that the ills of technology should seem curable only through the application of more technology..." John W Aldridge

by proximity1 on Mon May 8th, 2006 at 09:21:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think his first post was just an answer to the questions in the first paragraph of yours.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Mon May 8th, 2006 at 09:43:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

 Are you referring to his remark cited here:


"It's too early to judge of his supposed greyness or greatness because he did not make choice of his life yet.  All great leaders give their nations sense of mission for decades. Russia today does not know who is its enemy - The West, only US, China, Iran or other. What steps Russia should take, what countries may be natural allies in fulfilling this strategy nobody knows. Very probably this strategy already exists in Putin's mind, but it was not made public for obvious reason - it's not appropriate time yet.

 ?

 I took that to refer to the matter referred to as "greyness".  Perhaps it also means that it's too soon to say what Poutine would aspire to as a legacy for the nation.  I don't know.

"In such an environment it is not surprising that the ills of technology should seem curable only through the application of more technology..." John W Aldridge

by proximity1 on Mon May 8th, 2006 at 11:41:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm thinking on it and will post as soon as possible. Despite Putin did not make some crucial choices we can suspect what they will be. I mentioned earlier Putin and The Middle East article, you can try to find it on one of internet magazines (I found it through search engine) devoted to Middle East. This article was very good and I suspect all world leaders prefer to use such deep stuff, not AP or Reuters analytics.  
by FarEasterner on Mon May 8th, 2006 at 11:55:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Foreigners like Josefina don't help much either.  She writes an op-ed in the Moscow Times openly "giggling" at Russia's 60th anniversary celebration of the end of the Great Patriotic War.  I think Sweden's role in WWII is nothing to be proud of.

I fully agree with Konstantin's comments on her essay at Russian Blog.

by slaboymni on Sat May 6th, 2006 at 08:34:57 PM EST
For some dark humour with a tinge of truth, check out this satircal? ;) editorial over at the eXile:

America: The 90th Russian Republic

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

by p------- on Sat May 6th, 2006 at 09:08:32 PM EST
When we talked about opinion polls, I looked through the site of VTSIOM polling company (http://www.wciom.ru). Here is some random data from the polls conducted in the last 2-3 years. It's a little bit disogranized, but seem to be useful nevertheless.

Freedoms

What are the most important civil rights and freedoms?

Right to:

 work - 45%
 healthcare - 39%
 personal freedoms - 37%
 social services - 33%
 housing - 32%
 vacation - 31%
 no interference in private life - 24%
 education - 23%
 speech - 19%
 protection of rights, incl. courts - 16%
 private property - 12%
 native language - 10%
 religion - 8%
 travel - 8%
 participation in politics - 5%
 vote and be elected - 5%
 association - 3%

EU and West

Country's foreign course should be:

full integration with the West: 40%
no need to hurry: 46%

Future relationship with EU:

Russia should become EU member - 35%
Independent country, with equal relationships with EU - 30%
No need to become EU member - 16%

51% think that Russia should aspire to join EU, but only 49% will vote "yes" on referendum to join EU.

All in all positive attitudes towards EU; EU is seen as an example of effective and beneficial community of nations. High quality of life and non-militaristic character of EU are seen as positive, at the same time EU is not considered to be a serious geopolitical player. Only 2% identify themselves as primarily Europeans (Russian or local identity is stronger) and only 12% name cultural closeness to Europe as a reason to join EU.

Kasyanov for the president (one of the US darlings)

Will vote for - 3.4%
Will not vote for under no circumstances - 66%

Putin

In Feb 2006 75% approve of his leadership and 58% will vote for him again (which is against the constitution).

Putin:

Conducts a course to increase Russia's role in modern world: 81%
Aims to be close to the Western countries: 74%
Introduces order and strengthens the rule of law: 72%
Aims to develop democracy: 65%

52% think that although policies are correct, actual implemenentation of the policies is lacking and not as effecient as people expect.

Next president must be more decisive than Putin in ...

Conducting policy in the interests of Russians 76%
Ruling in the oligarhs, restoration of the state's role in economy: 76%
introducing order to the country : 68%
Be less dependant on West's opinion: 53%
democracy development: 26%

Who is the most successful leader of the country since 1917:

 Putin - 37%
 Brezhnev - 15%
 Stalin - 11%
 Andropov - 7%
 Lenin - 7%
 Khrushev - 4%
 Gorbachev - 2%
 Yeltsin - 2%

Gorbachev is generally viewed positively as a person, but a failure as a leader.

CIS and abroad

Forms of integration suitable to today's Russia:

No integration, Russia with no dependencies on ex-Soviet republics is just fine: 34%
new USSR: 28%
Union of Russia, Belarus and Khazakhstan: 15%
EU: 13%
CIS (current state): 11%

Should Russia support democracy (more specifically, allocate money or resources) in ex-Soviet republics:

No - 61%
Yes - 24%

80% support Gazprom's position in Ukraine's gas spat, with business rationalization ("nothing personal, just business").

The other data also shows that general sense is not to have any special preferences, economic or political, to ex-USSR countries.

Know the name of the leader of:

USA 89%
Belarus 85%
Ukraine 76%
Kazakhstan 59%
Azerbaijan 54%
France 53%
UK 48%
Germany 48%
Georgia 47%
Uzbekistan 29%
Italy 29%
Armenia 27%
Turkmenistan 27%
Moldova 19%
Tajikistan 16%
Kyrgyzstan 14%
Japan 11%
India 7%

Perestroyka

crisis was unavoidable - 49%; Perestroyka beter never happened 37%.

Effects of perestroyka, positive/negative (rest are neutral, no impact on live of the country and don't know):

Right of Eastern European countries to plot their course independently 33%/24%
Less government control over private lives 36%/29%
Rise in civic activity of population: 40%/17%
Less red tape in literature and culture: 34%/30%
Re-orientation of economy from military towards consumer goods: 33%/27%
More independence for republics and regions: 28%/32%
Private enterprises: 53%/15%
Political freedom: 45%/19%
Reapproachment with the West: 50%/13%

On the balance, results of perestroyka 54% view as negative and 27% as positive. Now 61% would not support the perestroyka, and only 14% would. Remember Putin whis his "geopolitical catastrophe"? Does it make sense now?

by blackhawk on Sun May 7th, 2006 at 03:07:29 AM EST
On the balance, results of perestroyka 54% view as negative and 27% as positive.

As all but one effect of Perestroika asked about was seen by more as positive than those who saw it as negative, I wonder what the poll left out that turns the balance negative. Or, is it more an emotional thing, people blaming Perestroika for what came in the Yeltsin era?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sun May 7th, 2006 at 08:22:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It was a separate question, and yes, answers to the another question in the same poll point that the perestroyka and Yeltsin's rule are viewed as two phases of the same project.
by blackhawk on Sun May 7th, 2006 at 05:23:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm having trouble with all those neo-, paleo-, christo- and renaissancecons around.

Tell me one thing: is dick-o-con on the top here?

by blackhawk on Sun May 7th, 2006 at 04:22:45 AM EST
Friend of mine from San Francisco writes today:
We went to a concert at Davies this afternoon and had a sweet and totally unexpected experience in the Performing Arts garage elevator: three elderly couples got on, speaking Russian, the men wearing rows of unfamiliar ribbons and medals, and I realized, tomorrow's May 8, what the Russians call Victory Day, the day in 1945 that Germany surrendered to end the European war. So I started telling them "Thank you" in Russian, nodding and grinning and saying "Victory Day! May 8!  You saved the world!" They seemed not to understand any English at all, though they certainly realized I was saying "spasiba" and I think eventually I got across the reason this American stranger was behaving in this extraordinary way. It's a damn scandal more Americans don't know about that, or what it meant and still means... so off they went, in an enormous SUV, and I'll bet they never expected this chapter in their stories.

NYT Book Reviews, Letters to the Editor May 8

'Ivan's War'

To the Editor:

Readers of the review of Catherine Merridale's Ivan's War (April 9) are no more knowledgeable about why we should care about these men, the veterans of the Red Army in World War II, than they were before they started it. Not once in her review does Sheila Fitzpatrick mention what we in the West owe them: quite simply, the defeat of the Wehrmacht.

Nazi Germany's war with the Soviet Union was fought chiefly on land, and by all measures -- firepower, casualties, scale -- it dwarfed the Allied campaigns in Europe and North Africa. Western military historians are unanimous that the Red Army was responsible for at least 75 percent of all German losses -- in all theaters -- in both men and materiel. It should also be remembered that by the time the Allies landed on the beaches of Normandy and opened a true second front, the Wehrmacht had been in retreat since losing the critical tank battle of Kursk to the Red Army in July 1943, almost an entire year earlier.

None of this is mentioned in the review, which does, however, speak of the rapes and atrocities committed by Soviet soldiers when they invaded Germany. All of that is true, but it is also true that it was the ordinary Red Army soldier, the "Ivan" so disastrously underestimated by the German High Command and so callously expended by his own, who changed the course of history. We can only hope your readers go to Merridale's splendid book to get a balanced portrait of these men, who saved this planet from fascism.

JOHN GARRARD
CAROL GARRARD

John Garrard is a professor of Russian studies at the University of Arizona. The Garrards edited "World War 2 and the Soviet People" and wrote "The Bones of Berdichev: The Life and Fate of Vasily Grossman," about the Red Army's leading war correspondent.

Whether "the planet" was saved from fascism seems to me the wrong question -- large numbers of humans were saved from fascism, perhaps, for a while...  Planets don't care much about primate politics, being very durable, and made of rock hence inanimate -- it's the vanishingly thin, fragile, biotic scum on the outermost surface where all the interesting stuff happens from our primate point of view :-)  Still, had the Soviets not broken the might of the Wehrmacht, heaven only knows what other trouser leg of Time we would all be living in now.  Perhaps one in which Godwin's Law is invoked to suppress provocative mention of the archfiend Churchill...  Spasibo, comrades.

The difference between theory and practise in practise ...

by DeAnander (de_at_daclarke_dot_org) on Mon May 8th, 2006 at 02:31:29 AM EST
In less than 5 hours Russian president will deliver annual address to parliament. Such speeches ignite usually moderate interest even from ordinary Russians. Most Russians are not interesting in politics and according to latest polls consider the address as routine political exercise and giving instructions to bureaucrats. Interest this year seems to be slightly increased and main question - will be US rebuked for unfriendly behaviour or not. Maybe it's time to downgrade American Russian relations from strategic partnership to selective cooperation?
by FarEasterner on Tue May 9th, 2006 at 11:24:35 PM EST


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