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Juncker: We Don't Need Britain!

by DoDo Thu Jun 15th, 2006 at 06:24:26 AM EST

Ahead of the next meeting of the EU Council, there is renewed debate on the dual issues of the EU Constitution and EU expansion. In an interview with German paper Die Welt, Luxemburg PM Jean-Claude Juncker drew the lines: if Britain rejects the EU Constitution, the EU can function without it, but France and Germany must be part of it. He further opined that he doesn't like the idea of Core Europe, but it is inevitable in 20 years.

Meanwhile, Prodi visited Merkel in Germany, and issued a joint declaration that the issue of the EU Constitution shall be relived during the German EU Council presidency in 2007. Merkel for her part doesn't want to solve the problem just by taking out parts from the Constitution. Prodi however would be fine with keeping the first part and throwing out the second.

Now updated with the details (quotes in German and summaries in English) below the fold.


I'll quote parts from the Die Welt interview in original German, with summaries of the main points therein in English.

...Ich sehe das heute abgekühlter, aber nicht wesentlich anders. Europa steckt in einer tiefen Krise. Diese Krise besteht darin, daß ein Teil der Bevölkerung denkt, wir hätten nicht genug Europa. Der andere Teil der europäischen Bürger denkt, wir hätten längst zuviel Europa. Und die Politik schafft es nicht, den Spagat zwischen diesen beiden Polen zu machen und zwischen ihnen zu vermitteln. ...Von den fünfziger bis in die neunziger Jahre hinein hatten die Politiker das Gefühl, daß sie im Namen der "europäischen Völker" handelten. Heute wissen wir gar nicht mehr, was die "europäischen Völker" eigentlich wollen.

Juncker still sees the EU in crisis, but now he is more cool about it. He thinks the crisis is in part of the population thinking there is not enough Europe, part thinking there is already too much, and politicians failed at negotiating between these -- and unlike until the nineties, political elites don't even know what the people want.

Es ärgert mich, daß wir in den westlichen Gesellschaften keine Freude darüber empfinden, daß beide Teile Europas zusammengefunden haben. Früher waren die Raketen aus dem Osten auf uns gerichtet - das hat angst gemacht. Heute sind die Hoffnungen der Menschen aus Mittel- und Osteuropa auf uns gerichtet - und das macht uns erstaunlicherweise noch größere Angst als die Raketen.

Juncker is outraged that Western societies aren't happy about Europe's reunification, and are more afraid of Central and Eastern Europe directing its hopes towards Western Europe now than when it was rockets which were directed (pointed) at Western Europe.

In 20 Jahren werden der EU 27 bis 33 Mitglieder angehören. Irgendwann wird diese Gruppe dann feststellen, daß sie nicht in allen Punkten gemeinsam Zukunft gestalten kann. Dann wird sich eine Kerngruppe formieren, die nicht identisch sein wird mit der Euro-Gruppe - aber fast. Um diese Kerngruppe herum wird es die normalen Mitglieder geben. Sie müssen die Kernanliegen der EU in der Steuer-, Innen- und Außenpolitik nicht vertiefen. Ich möchte dieses Kerneuropa nicht. Aber es wird sich eines Tages herausbilden als der einzige Weg aus der kollektiven Ausweglosigkeit, die eine Verständigung auf gemeinsame Ziele unmöglich macht.

Juncker thinks that the inability to agree on collective goals will necessarily lead to a Core Europe inside the further existing EU in 20 years, which will roughly be the same as today's Eurozone.

Frankreich und die Niederlande haben nach ihrer Ablehnung der Verfassung eine Bringpflicht. Sie müssen einen Vorschlag machen, mit dem die anderen Staaten leben können. Es kann nicht sein, daß die 16 Länder, die bereits ratifiziert haben, schlaflose Nächte verbringen und überlegen, was man tun könnte, damit die Franzosen und Niederländer zustimmen.

Juncker says that the proposal of an acceptable-to-all route on the EU Constitution is a responsibility of France and the Netherlands, rather than the 16 who already ratified thinking about how to suit French and Dutch voters.

Ich rechne frühestens 2009 mit der Verabschiedung einer europäischen Verfassung. Im übrigen sollte man die deutsche Ratspräsidentschaft mit der Verfassungsfrage nicht überfrachten - die deutsche Bundesregierung wird in dieser Frage im Jahr 2007 keine epochalen Fortschritte machen.

Juncker thinks the Constitution will be accepted in 2009 at the earliest, and is sceptical about the German presidency making a grand advance next year.

WELT: Wäre es sinnvoll, diejenigen Staaten, die nicht ratifizieren, von der weiteren europäischen Integration auszuschließen?

Juncker: Es wäre durchaus vorstellbar, die EU ohne die Briten fortzuführen, wenn sie die Verfassung ablehnen sollten. Ich wünsche mir das aber nicht. Auf Frankreich kann die Europäische Union aber nicht verzichten. Wenn Deutschland und Frankreich sich nicht in eine Richtung bewegen, wird das europäische Triebwerk so schwer gestört sein, daß der Karren nicht mehr zu ziehen ist.

Responding to a general question about exclusion of countries voting down the Constitution, Juncker says specifically that the EU can go on without Britain (though he doesn't wish so), but not France, and expresses his continued belief that the EU can only go forward in Germany and France go in the same direction.

Juncker: Es sollten nur solche Länder in die EU aufgenommen werden, die zu einer politischen Vertiefung der Union bereit sind. Es reicht nicht, eine gehobene Freihandelszone zu wollen.

WELT: Sie haben dabei die britische Regierung in Verdacht.

Juncker: Mir fällt auf, daß diejenigen, die sich mit einer vertieften Integration schwertun, identisch sind mit jenen, die ohne Prüfung der Aufnahmefähigkeit der EU eine Erweiterung vorantreiben wollen.

On the question of what he thinks how further EU expansion should be regulated, he says only such countries should be accepted that also want deeper political union, wanting a free-trade zone is not enough. WELT asks whether he is thinking of the British here, he says diplomatically that it is apparent that the same countries have problems with deeper integration who want further EU expansion without asking about the EU's ability to absorb new members.



In the official declaration from the Merkel-Prodi meeting, Merkel says:

"Wir brauchen einen solchen Verfassungsvertrag, wir brauchen weitere Reformen"

We need the Constitution, we need more reforms. (Reforms? What kind of reforms?)

Deutschland und Italien erwarten von dem kommenden EU-Gipfel ein Signal für die Wiederaufnahme des europäischen Verfassungsprozesses. Beim Zeitplan sei jedoch vor allem Klugheit gefragt... Klugheit heiße, keinen zu überfordern und trotzdem den Prozess voranzubringen.

The Constitution process shall start again at the EU Summit [the thinking pause is over]. They basically say that progress should be made by clever small steps, not demanding one big push.

Einen Streit um einzelne Bestandteile des vorliegenden Vertrags lehnte die Kanzlerin ab. Es dürfe "keine Rosinenpickerei" geben.

Merkel opposes the cherry-picking approach on solving the problem of the Constitution.

"Wir müssen wieder die Unabdingbarkeit der Europäischen Gemeinschaft deutlich machen."

Clear words: politicians should again communicate the indispensability of the EU to the citizens.

In a more sceptical analysis at SPIEGEL ON-LINE, they say the thinking pause will probably continue until the 50th anniversary of the Rome Treaty next year, and according to German plans, start slowly (due to the French Presidential elections). The envisaged direction in Germany is to get the EU Constitution, then renamed a Treaty, in effect before the 2009 EU Parliament elections.

Contrary to Merkel, Prodi opined about how the Constitution should look. He'd like it shorter, and sees the first section of the current version as fit for that, the rest can be left off:

"Jede starke Verfassung ist ein Rahmen von Grundsätzen"

Every strong Constitution is a framework of principles.

Display:
if Britain rejects the EU Constitution, the EU can function without it, but France and the Netherlands must be part of it. He further opined that he doesn't like the idea of Core Europe.

Not a man to be bound by stuffed-shirt notions like internal consistency, our Juncker..

by TYR (a.harrowellNOSPAM@gmail.com) on Thu Jun 15th, 2006 at 06:54:12 AM EST
I forgot to finish that sentence, now updated.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Jun 15th, 2006 at 06:56:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't know Juncker...but I'm glad he is speaking out on this...more discussion needs to be happening on this.

"Once in awhile we get shown the light, in the strangest of places, if we look at it right" - Hunter/Garcia
by whataboutbob on Thu Jun 15th, 2006 at 07:07:04 AM EST
Three things to know about Juncker:

  • he is an (Euro)-liberal,
  • he would likely have became the EU Commission President had Bliar not sided with Aznar and Berlusconi,
  • on the other hand, it was him and his governent who prevented the normal procedure on the issue of copyright laws when Luxemburg was EU Council president.


*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Jun 15th, 2006 at 07:22:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"political elites don't even know what the people want"

I think the problem is we dont know anymore what europe is and where we want to go.

France wants Europe beeing a big France, Britain wants A freemarket and improve its image in the muslim world by pushing to accept Turkey in Europe.

If we dont know what is europe, any power/authority given to this organisation is as a blank check.

that s clearly can work longer like that, our people have to define what we want and make clear decision, in or out.

by fredouil (fredouil@gmailgmailgmail.com) on Thu Jun 15th, 2006 at 07:25:37 AM EST
Those are excellent points. However, recent events may change the landscape somewhat.

the Labour party could become much more euro-phile. Europe has turned US-phobic and public sentiment in the UK is (slowly) recognising that europe is the only other game in town. This is convenient for the Labour party which, despite it being mired in responsibility for Iraq, is more obviously euro-phile than the Tories who seem to be going in almost the opposite direction.

So in the next few months expect the UK to be much more engaged in Europe, building bridges will all and sundry. And that will change the dynmaic considerably.

I imagine that the suggestion about taking just the first chapter of the constituion and running with that will be taken up, the rest of it will be dumped as inconvenient.

All of which will make Juncker's sentiments into yesterday's news.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu Jun 15th, 2006 at 09:37:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
 To once more try and restore the left-out, over-looked aspect of the debate, the trouble I see with all such analyses as J-P Juncker's is that the real question is not one of whether or not "Europe" can do without this or that present or potential member-nation but, rather, whether "Europe" as a European Union entity can continue to be constructed as the play-thing of a corporate-political élite and in utter indifference to the people of Europe.

 That problem, as Gary J so astutely pointed out in talos's diary "The European Constitution, Some Thoughts**"
 is that this point is being consistently ignored as though it is either unimportant or that it shall somehow eventually simply go away--


Are you suggesting that there is any chance of making progress with the european constitution project without democratic support? If that support does not exist, as the no votes in France and the Netherlands suggest, then nothing significant is going to happen on the constitution unless either public opinion changes or a new proposition is submitted to the people for their judgement.

 That's only one among several valuable observations offered by Gary J in Talos's to-the-point diary.

"In such an environment it is not surprising that the ills of technology should seem curable only through the application of more technology..." John W Aldridge

by proximity1 on Thu Jun 15th, 2006 at 10:15:26 AM EST
I must say I can understand Juncker's exasperation with the British, though the Danes and Poles are hardly better. But the Constitution is only part of the more fundamental problem.

In my view, the way some EU countries' governments plotted their participation in the illegal Iraq war without even consulting the other EU members was a profound betrayal of the European idea, an action which has dealt the EU deep and still festering wound. I know that I do not like to be associated, through the EU, with  governments who were and are involved in Bush's conspiracy. Now the revelations about the rendition flights add new aspects to the general disillusion. With a discredited and unprincipled political class in almost every EU country,is it any wonder that the public loses trust in these politicians' projects?  

I believe it is past time the UK, Denmark, Poland and Romania made up their mind whether they want to be associated with the EU on the majority's terms, in good faith, or rather prefer to cleave to the USA  and its neoliberal gospel and aggressive doctrine. Their dual loyalties and ulterior motives are harmful for the EU. As long as these trust issues are not sorted out, it seems pointless to argue about the timetable for the Constitution and similar technicalities.  

by MaryinHongkong on Thu Jun 15th, 2006 at 11:09:24 AM EST
Governments pass but countries remain... Asnar and Burlesconi were instrumental and were voted out. And Barroso, the host of the infamous Açores summit, is now at the helm of the EU Commission.

It is entirely possible that opposition to the US will be the required new organizing principle for progress in European integration, but it will take a lot more brutality from the US and a new generation of political leaders in Europe. NATO has to go.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jun 15th, 2006 at 11:20:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
NATO should be demolished, anyway.  It is absolutely pointless.  The Cold War is over.  The evil Commies are gone.  Europe does not need the US to protect it, and the US government needs to stop wasting money, especially as it relates to the military.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Thu Jun 15th, 2006 at 02:00:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Cold War is over? Quickly, someone tell the Vice President!

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jun 15th, 2006 at 02:04:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I know, I know.  But, if it weren't Russia, the neocons would need another bogeyman.  It's a fact of life for totalitarians.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Thu Jun 15th, 2006 at 02:18:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The problems of the EU began before George W. Bush became President of the United States.

The British population reacted to Bush much the same as that of other European nations. If Blair had taken a line like Chirac or Schroeder about Iraq, he would probably be more popular at home than he now is.

Rendition demonstrates that most European governments do not want to annoy the Americans. I am not aware that any of them have seriously tried to stop the flights or raise them in the European Council.

My next comments relate to the European Union as it is rather than to the federal Europe I would prefer.

Britain has as much right as any other member state to argue for its vision of the EU's future. Although I would like my country to rebalance its foreign policy more towards Europe and less to the United States, I do not think we can give automatic, unconditional allegiance to some other members interpretation of how Europe should develop. Everything has to be negotiated and agreed within the institutional framework of the EU.

by Gary J on Thu Jun 15th, 2006 at 04:41:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

 The Italians (or at least some of their courts) have formally filed criminal charges naming specific agents for allegations of kidnapping and other crimes in the abductions and removal of people by C.I.A. operatives while in Italy--this action, still pending in Italian courts, AFAIK, was begun while Berlusconi was still in office--shows some admirable spunk and independence on the part of these judges.

Brava Italia!!!!

"In such an environment it is not surprising that the ills of technology should seem curable only through the application of more technology..." John W Aldridge

by proximity1 on Thu Jun 15th, 2006 at 04:45:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Admirable, but the initiative seems to come from the judicial agencies of the state not the executive ones which are arguably better placed to do something to stop future kidnappings and renditions affecting Italy.
by Gary J on Thu Jun 15th, 2006 at 04:59:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Rendition demonstrates that most European governments do not want to annoy the Americans. I am not aware that any of them have seriously tried to stop the flights or raise them in the European Council.
Sadly. I have often wondered over the past 5 years what our governments think the US has on them.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jun 15th, 2006 at 05:10:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
nuclear bomb sights?

pix of pols molesting kids?

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri Jun 16th, 2006 at 08:52:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I have to say that I feel a certain exasperation at the Prime Minister of Luxembourg's comment about Britain. If I feel that, then a lot of my compatriots would react very negatively to such a comment (especially the ones who would like nothing better than to get out of the European Union).

Those politicians in other countries, who do wish to get rid of Britain as a member state, should use exactly the approach of Prime Minister Juncker. A proud country will not tolerate being lectured, in condescending tones, by the likes of the leader of Luxembourg.

This may appear an insignificant matter, but Juncker is playing with fire. If his remarks became widely known and were taken seriously in Britain, a lot of people here would be delighted to reply "very well, alone". It would play directly into the English national myth of ourselves on our islands, standing alone against all the world.

Neither of the people who are most likely to be the British Prime Minister in the next few years are as pro-European as John Major or Tony Blair were when they came to power.

Gordon Brown has not got a strongly pro-European image.

David Cameron does not appear to have any affinity even for the centre-right European politicians who are his obvious natural allies. It has been suggested that his wish to pull the Conservatives out of the European Peoples Party is just a tactic to keep the euro-sceptics quiet. On the contrary it seems to be the one policy he is actually sincere about. If it was just a tactic he would have ditched it by now.

I think it is telling that Cameron has not attended the two gatherings of EU centre-right leaders since he became Conservative leader. A pro-European Tory leader would not behave in that way.

*

I think the crisis in the European Union is more fundamental than Jean-Claude Juncker seems to believe. It is not just a difficulty with Britain.

If Juncker does not see that the existing constitution is stone cold dead, then he is delusional. Rebranding the constitutional treaty simply as a treaty will not make it more acceptable.

Trying to smuggle the provisions of the constitution in piece by piece may work up to a point, but the British euro-sceptics want any changes to be subject to a referendum. I presume those opposed in France and the Netherlands would also not be happy for their countries to agree in stages what the people had rejected as a whole.

by Gary J on Thu Jun 15th, 2006 at 04:04:54 PM EST
I find it amusing that a microstate of 450,000 people will lecture a state of 60 million.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jun 15th, 2006 at 04:33:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
  1. If that would be the case, I wouldn't find it amusing -- since when is being right a question of numbers?
  2. I can't see how you can read Juncker's words as lecturing.


*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Jun 15th, 2006 at 05:21:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Juncker only discloses to the public what the social-democratic and christian-democratic party groups (Schulz/Pöttering) in the EP and the German, French, Spanish and Belgian governments had informally agreed upon four months ago. In Feb and March I attended some meetings with Martin Schulz and Jo Leinen concerning the constitution process and posted -as an insider info- on ET what their joint position is. Now that Prodi has become Italian prime minister and has joined and strengthened the club (his visit with Merkel in Berlin), it was Juncker's task (who'll become president of the commission after Barroso) to make the accord public. You should also interprete the Tory move to leave the EPP group in the EP with the knowledge about the intergovernmental and interparty agreement in mind.

It is old news - it was first published on ET four months ago.  

"The USA appears destined by fate to plague America with misery in the name of liberty." Simon Bolivar, Caracas, 1819

by Ritter on Thu Jun 15th, 2006 at 06:10:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
it was Juncker's task (who'll become president of the commission after Barroso)
Geez, we know 3 years in advance who the Council of 27 members will agree to nominate? How about 2014? Is that written in the stars, or carved in stone, too?

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jun 15th, 2006 at 06:22:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sorry, I'm not in the business to comment news articles after the fact.

"The USA appears destined by fate to plague America with misery in the name of liberty." Simon Bolivar, Caracas, 1819
by Ritter on Thu Jun 15th, 2006 at 06:35:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That is the problem with the EU: everything is decided in backroom deals years ahead of time, and then news articles are choreographed for the public.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jun 15th, 2006 at 07:03:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Not true. Four months ago I brought the ongoing debate to ET. You didn't react.

"The USA appears destined by fate to plague America with misery in the name of liberty." Simon Bolivar, Caracas, 1819
by Ritter on Fri Jun 16th, 2006 at 06:16:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Which thread was this? I don't recall.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jun 16th, 2006 at 06:26:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As I said before: I don't comment news articles, I rather prefer to break news stories.

Here is one of my stories which made first (took me 35 minutes) Der Spiegel, Stern, then: German TV Channels, Reuters, Bloomberg, CNN, BBC, Agence France Press, NYT, WaPo, and the following day 135 regional news papers in Germany (it gave us a 0,4 percent boost at the last General Elections) :

http://service.spiegel.de/digas/servlet/find/ON=spiegel-3733Merkel
schrieb bei Reagan ab

Tolle Haare, tolle Rhetorik. Kann es ein Zufall sein, dass dies auf beide Politiker zutrifft?

Ja, das Schluss-Statement von Unions-Kanzlerkanidatin Angela Merkel beim TV-Duell mit Bundeskanzler Gerhard Schröder war an eine Rede des früheren US-Präsidenten Ronald Reagan angelehnt.

Die CDU räumt ein, was fleißige Journalisten herausgefunden hatten. (That was me.)

Ein Sprecher der Partei erklärt: "Sie hat sich sicherlich davon inspirieren lassen." Und er windet sich: Aber die abschließenden Äußerungen seien letztlich die gewesen, die die Union im Wahlkampf auch vertrete.

Reagan hatte sich vor 25 Jahren als Präsidentschaftskandidat zum Schluss eines TV-Duells mit dem damaligen Präsidenten Jimmy Carter mit einem Plädoyer an die Bürger gewandt, das Merkel fast wörtlich wiederholte:

Merkel bat zu vergleichen, ob es dem Land heute besser als vor Rot-Grün gehe. "Wenn Sie nicht wollen, dass es einfach so weitergeht, dann haben Sie die Wahl mit CDU und CSU", sagte die CDU-Politikerin. "Wenn Sie nicht denken, dass dieser Kurs auch der ist, auf dem Sie uns für die nächsten vier Jahre sehen wollen, kann ich eine andere Wahloption vorschlagen", hatte Reagan damals gesagt.

Merkel am 4. September 2005: "Liebe Wählerinnen und Wähler, in zwei Wochen werden Sie Ihre Entscheidung über die Wahl fällen und vielleicht hilft Ihnen die Beantwortung einiger Fragen bei Ihrer Entscheidung: Geht es unserem Land heute besser als vor sieben Jahren, als Rot-Grün antrat? Ist das Wachstum höher? Ist die Arbeitslosigkeit niedriger? Und haben wir weniger Bürokratie? Sind unsere Rente, Pflege und Gesundheit sicherer? Wenn Sie alle diese Fragen mit Ja beantworten, dann haben Sie Ihre Wahlentscheidung wahrscheinlich gefällt. Aber wenn Sie Zweifel haben, wenn Sie nicht wollen, dass es einfach so weitergeht, dann haben Sie die Wahl mit CDU und CSU. "

Ronald Reagan am 28. Oktober 1980 im Fernsehduell mit Jimmy Carter: "Am nächsten Dienstag ist Wahltag. Am nächsten Dienstag werden Sie alle wählen gehen, werden im Wahllokal stehen und eine Entscheidung treffen. Ich denke, wenn Sie diese Entscheidung treffen, wäre es gut, wenn Sie sich fragen: Geht es Ihnen besser als vor vier Jahren? Ist es leichter für Sie, in den Laden zu gehen und Sachen zu kaufen, als es das vor vier Jahren war? Ist die Arbeitslosigkeit im Land höher oder niedriger als vor vier Jahren? Genießt Amerika so viel Respekt in der Welt wie vorher? Haben Sie das Gefühl, dass unsere Sicherheit so groß ist, dass wir so stark sind wie vor vier Jahren? Und wenn Sie all diese Fragen mit Ja beantworten, dann denke ich, dass Ihre Wahlentscheidung sehr klar ist. Wenn Sie nicht zustimmen, wenn Sie nicht denken, dass dieser Kurs, auf dem wir uns die letzten vier Jahre befunden haben auch der ist, auf dem Sie uns für die nächsten vier Jahre sehen wollen, dann kann ich eine andere Wahloption vorschlagen, die Sie haben..."

Activism, it needs actvism...

"The USA appears destined by fate to plague America with misery in the name of liberty." Simon Bolivar, Caracas, 1819

by Ritter on Fri Jun 16th, 2006 at 06:05:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A proud country will not tolerate being lectured, in condescending tones, by the likes of the leader of Luxembourg.

Well, being EU members, that is a problem... but I must ask you too: what did you read as lecturing in Juncker's quip? That a no to the Constitution is a way out of the EU was clear on the outset, what is new (and I agree this is playing with fire, but that's not lecturing) was declaring who is and isn't essential for the EU.

Neither of the people who are most likely to be the British Prime Minister in the next few years are as pro-European as John Major or Tony Blair were when they came to power.

This, unfortunately, is the British EU conudrum. Whatever the percentage of Europhile Britons, 60% or 6% (and depending on the question it can be either today), the political leadership seems set to change from neoliberal to Eurosceptic of some sort. Juncker's talk can mean two things IMO: either analysing public opinion as politically irrelevant on Europe and giving up on Britain to save the EU, or a warning towards British Europhile and this-is-too-risky-for-me politicians that Core Europe is not dead, they should do something about Cameron and Brown or there are problems. (I also suspect that Juncker is probably speaking out what collagues in bigger countries think but won't say in public.) At any rate risky business and surely deeply dishearthening for pro-federalis Britons like you, but it my be that events have a momentum of their own...

I think the crisis in the European Union is more fundamental than Jean-Claude Juncker seems to believe. It is not just a difficulty with Britain.

Probably not for the exact same reasons, but I agree. Juncker brought up Britain in one question as example, but for another question, he didn't want to narrow it down, and his explicit talk of Core Europe implies too that he thinks the problem is more than Britain -- however, the problems are even more fundamental than Denmark and Poland. It's the democratic deficit at both the EU and national levels, and the unsincere talk of politicians on the EU even in core countries like Germany.

Trying to smuggle the provisions of the constitution in piece by piece may work up to a point, but the British euro-sceptics want any changes to be subject to a referendum. I presume those opposed in France and the Netherlands would also not be happy for their countries to agree in stages what the people had rejected as a whole.

Hm, the above pragraph contains a few things to criticise. First, it wasn't Juncker who proposed re-naming the Constitution as treaty or accepting only parts, it was the German government. Second, those advocating the re-issuing of only part don't want it accepted "piece by piece", they want to drop other pieces (whihc the "Non" voters wanted too) -- this piece-by-piece sounds like an Eurosceptic spin to my ears. Similarly when you call a treaty "smuggling", I don't think a treaty between states can be characterised that. But with all that said, I'd prefer keeping only the institutional changes as a treaty and then a real bottom-up process for Constitution.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu Jun 15th, 2006 at 05:56:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I found M. Juncker's reported remark unhelpful. If I did, I guarantee that many others would take deeper offence.

I was perhaps being a little patronising myself about the representative of a sovereign state. Luxembourg is as free as any other member state to put forward its views about the future of the EU. No doubt M. Juncker was expressing views held privately by leaders of other larger member states.

It is not clear that voting no on the constitution is a way of leaving the EU. The question of what would happen if most of the members accepted the constitutional treaty but a small number did not was left undecided. As I recall the existing treaty requires unanimous ratification.

In any event it is not Britain that has, so far, rejected the constitutional text. The question of a possible British rejection will not arise unless the French and Dutch no's are reversed.

Under the existing arrangements all the members have equal status. If a group of them want to do something new, then that does not automatically affect the existing treaties.

I do not disagree that events may have a momentum of their own. The people in public life in the UK, particularly in the Conservative Party, who are prominent pro-Europeans tend to be from the previous generation. There is no obvious young champion of the European ideal. Even the Liberal Democrats seem to have decided that talking about Europe is too much of a vote loser to be risked.

There is no consistent pro-European message reaching the British public at all. Neither the idealistic case for Europe, nor the practical benefits are often  mentioned. Euro-sceptic propaganda goes unanswered.

Few people are interested in European issues, except the passionate euro-sceptics who care very deeply.

Whatever coded warnings may be sent I am not sure anyone in Britain is listening or would care if they were.

The original six (if that is more or less what you mean by Core Europe) may be over-estimating the degree to which their own populations support what the governments may want to do. Is there any evidence that the French and Dutch voters would like deeper integration within the core group any better than what was on offer in the larger EU?

On the other hand the smaller the group of nations to be considered the easier it should be to reach agreement on something.

by Gary J on Thu Jun 15th, 2006 at 08:27:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
the brits still have delusions of empire grandeur.

watch therm whine for re-entry a few years after america chews them up and spits them into the bermuda triangle...

either in ...or out.

i used to want them in, to round out the eu, and make it more powerful; now i want them to go until they learn to move into the 21st century and stop trying to turn it into a corporate surveillance-state.

france is already going to far in that direction without extra help...

but this pompous fence-sitting is almost as embarassingly tiring to watch.

the eu needs massive overhaul, but becoming more british...

no!

enough snobs and louts here already...

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri Jun 16th, 2006 at 09:02:57 PM EST
British elites with delusions of grandeur? Dead right, although arguably French elites are even more delusional.

It goes back, as all modern British history does, to the Second World War. The British, particularly their political leaders, were under the impression that having won that war the world owed them a living; so the pre-war world could be speedily re-created. They were very slow to realise that the Empire was fatally wounded and that British world power was no longer sustainable. The last thing they wanted to concede was that Britain was just a typical European power.

Between 1945 and the Suez crisis in 1957 British policymakers continued to assume they had the power to matter at the highest level of world diplomacy. Unfortunately reality had a way of undermining the outmoded operating assumptions British statesmen were using.

The attempt to preserve the reserve currency status of the pound caused recurring financial problems for decades afterwards. The strain of military adventures during the same period reinforced the economic problems.

Attlee's Labour government, immediately after the war, though the United States should support the UK's economy on generous terms. When the Americans did not agree and imposed tough terms for a loan the gap between real and imagined status became manifest.

In about 1946 Britain had to ask for American help to support the Royalists in the Greek Civil War. The country could no longer afford an independent foreign policy.

The Attlee government signed up to the Korean War and planned to make an enormous national effort to play a part far more extensive than Britain could really afford. The rearmament programme of the Labour government would have caused economic disaster if it had been fully implemented.

Winston Churchill was favourable to European unity, but did not envisage Britain being part of it. He spent his time as Prime Minister in the early 1950's trying to recreate the Big 3 role, between the United States and the Soviet Union, which he had during the war.

Churchill's political heir, Sir Anthony Eden tried to play great power games without American support. This proved to be a mistake.

When the Americans used economic power to pull the plug on Suez, London realised a new departure was necessary in foreign policy.

Harold Macmillan pursued a schizophrenic policy, which is really the root of British ambivalence about Europe.

Macmillan envisaged Britain's world role as being like the Greeks in the Roman Empire, helping the Americans exercise their power. The subtext was that the Americans did not know what they were doing and needed British guidance. You can imagine how little Washington agreed.

On the other hand Macmillan realised that Britain needed to link itself with the EEC. His government made the first membership application, which De Gaulle vetoed.

Harold Wilson, in his 1964-70 administration, explored rge consequences of British decline. The pound had to be devalued and the military role East of Suez abandoned. He also avoided being entangled in Vietnam.

Wilson made the second UK application to join the EEC, which again De Gaulle vetoed.

Heath, Macmillan's original negotiator with Europe, became Prime Minister in 1970. With De Gaulle no longer in office, Heath made the third membership application and joined the EEC.

Edward Heath was the most pro-European leader the UK has ever had and probably the least pro-American Prime Minister of the post-war period. However even his government saw the EEC as a way of expanding British power in the world and a body in need of British leadership. As I recall the subtext was not very hidden at the time and I imagine the other members did not agree with it.

Everything since has been a working out of the consequences of Britain's divided focus.

The punching above our weight school of British diplomacy has cost us dear. Britain badly needs a government prepared to take a fundamental look at the assumptions of our foreign policy. What is our real national interest?

by Gary J on Sun Jun 18th, 2006 at 11:17:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]


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