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The Anti-Semitic Zionist God Squad

by ManfromMiddletown Fri Jul 14th, 2006 at 08:02:42 PM EST

I read the news today, oh boy.The prospect of regional war looms large, and the latest threat from Iran's president highlights the worst case scenario.

"If the Zionist regime commits another stupid move and attacks Syria, this will be considered like attacking the whole Islamic world and this regime will receive a very fierce response," Ahmadinejad was quoted as saying in a telephone conversation with Syrian President Bashar al-Assad.

Oh shit, Armageddeon.  Tim Lahaye and the Left Behinders must be pleased.  This is what all those years of sabotaging the peace process were about, provoking the Second Coming.

It's the end of the world as we know it (and I don't feel fine.)

Here's the thing, for a (disturbing) section of the Religous right, the imminent annihilation of the state of Israel is a good thing. For the rapture ready this is no cause for alarm.  The righteous need not worry, they've got reservations with St. Peter and the Pearly Gates.

At the heart of the dogma behind the Left Behind series is a sincere belief that the end of times is near, and that the sooner that the battle of Armageddon comes, the quicker "god-fearing" Christians will be caught up and taken to Heaven. Christian Zionists call this the Rapture, and they have the twisted belief that through supporting the state of Israel (until the lake of fire bit, keep reading) Evangelicals can hasten the Second Coming.

In March 2004, according to The Village Voice, a delegation from the Apostolic Congress, a religious group that believes in the Rapture, met with Elliott Abrams, then the National Security Council's senior director for Near East and North African affairs, to discuss its concern that Israel's disengagement from Gaza would violate God's covenant with Israel.....

"They're not interested in the survival of the State of Israel. They are interested in the Rapture, in bringing to fruition a cosmic myth of the End Times, proving that they are right with one big bang. We are merely actors in their dreams. LaHaye's vision is that Jews will convert or die and go to hell. If you read his books, he is looking forward to war. He is not an ally in the safety of Israel."

Just to be clear the mechanism by which which the non-Christian inhabitants of Israel, excepting the 144,000 Jews that Christian Fundamentalists believe will convert to Christianity during the end of times. And the rest of Jewish inhabitants of Israel.

This is the moment the Rapturists eagerly await. The magnitude of death and destruction will make the Holocaust seem trivial. The battle finally begins.

Those who remain on earth are the unsaved, the left behind--many of them dissolute followers of the Antichrist, who is massing his army against Christ. Accompanying Christ into battle are the armies of heaven, riding white horses and dressed in fine linen....

Once Christ joins the battle, both the Antichrist and the False Prophet are quickly captured and cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Wait a minute, lake of fire, so they get burnt whole.  This theology stuff, it's all Greek to me, what's the Greek for that.  Oh yes, a burnt sacrifice offered to the Lord as proof of faith.  

That's a holocaust.

Oh shit, you mean that the Christian Fundamentalist endplan for Israel is a  Holocaust. Surely, all decent people would realize that this is madness, and shun those who promote the destruction of a people to please a vengeful god.

Then again, you have to remember just how seriously whack the Christian Fundamentalist base of the Republican Party is.

Though its membership (CNP, Council for National Policy, ed note) is secret, the rolls have reportedly included Falwell and Pat Robertson; top right-wing political strategists Richard Viguerie, Ralph Reed, and Paul Weyrich; Republican senators Jesse Helms and Lauch Faircloth (both of North Carolina), Don Nickles (Oklahoma), and Trent Lott (Mississippi); and Republican representatives Dick Armey and Tom DeLay (both of Texas). The late Rousas John Rushdoony, the right-wing theologian who hoped to reconfigure the American legal system in accordance with biblical law, was said to be a member, as was John Whitehead of the Rutherford Institute, who was co-counsel to Paula Jones in her lawsuit against Bill Clinton.

"Ronald Reagan, both George Bushes, senators and Cabinet members--you name it. There's nobody who hasn't been here at least once," says Falwell, who confirms that he is a member. "It is a group of four or five hundred of the biggest conservative guns in the country."

The C.N.P. has access to the highest powers in the land. In 1999, George W. Bush courted evangelical support for his presidential candidacy by giving a speech before the council, the transcript of which remains a highly guarded secret. And since the start of his presidency, Falwell says, the C.N.P. has enjoyed regular access to the Oval Office. "Within the council is a smaller group called the Arlington Group," says Falwell. "We talk to each other daily and meet in Washington probably twice a month. We often call the White House and talk to Karl Rove while we are meeting. Everyone takes our calls." According to The Wall Street Journal, two high-ranking Texas judges who spoke to the Arlington Group in October at the suggestion of Karl Rove allegedly assured its members that Supreme Court nominee Harriet Miers would vote to overturn Roe v. Wade.

And what's the end plan for LaHaye et al, creating a Christian Fundamentalist state.

As a result, LaHaye argues, good Evangelicals should no longer think of humanists as harmless citizens who happen not to attend church. In The Battle for the Mind, he spells out his political goals: "We must remove all humanists from public office and replace them with pro-moral political leaders."

"In LaHaye's world, there are the godly people who are on their way to the Rapture," says Berlet. "And the rest of the world is either complicit with the Antichrist or, worse, actively assisting him. If you really believe in End Times, you are constantly looking for agents of Satan.... [And if] political conflicts are rooted in the idea that your opponent is an agent of the Devil, there is no compromise possible. What decent person would compromise with evil? So that removes it from the democratic process.

When I crossposted the at Daily Kos, I suggested that everyone go to "townhall meetings" for the Republicans who subscribe to this bullshit, and ask them a simple question.

Do you believe the by supporting the state of Israel you  are hastening the Rapture?.


that everyone read the original article in Vanity Fair by Craig Unger, the author of House of Bush, House of Saud.

On the general topic of Right wing Relgious nuts, I suggest everyone get an updated copy of  Kossack Frederick Clarkson's book, Eternal Hostility, The Struggle between Democracy and Theocracy.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg
by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Fri Jul 14th, 2006 at 08:05:29 PM EST
Almost namesake: not Frederick Clarkson, but Fred Clark, does (and has done) excellent work on the Left Behind series and on Rapture believers (and religion more broadly), in his blog slacktivist.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Jul 15th, 2006 at 05:50:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
MfM, you, of course, realize that, when Christ does reappear, I'll have to kill you for being an agent of the Antichrist.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sat Jul 15th, 2006 at 02:47:07 AM EST
I have stacks of gay puppies to unleash on you.  They have Satanic urine that burns true believers.

PS.  Sometimes I think that the wave of suicides following a faking of the rapture would be worth it.  

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Sat Jul 15th, 2006 at 08:49:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
How do we fake the rapture?

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Jul 15th, 2006 at 09:02:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Did you not see the story of the cult out in the west whose members killed themselves wearing black robes and Nike shoes?  (The headline in The Palm Beach Post -- or perhaps one of the other South Florida papers -- read: "Just Do It.")

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sat Jul 15th, 2006 at 11:36:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Are you a true believer? Do you just know deep down in your black Wal-Mart socks that every word of the Bible is the absolute literal truth and nothing dare be doubted and anyone who thinks that God is merely an ambisexual omniblissful bloom of moist divine nondenominational honeydew melon should be strung up by their small intestine and beaten with sticks sharpened by Mel Gibson's teeth?

Do you feel, furthermore, that human cretins like, say, gays and Jews and Wiccans and all those hippie weirdos with their iPods and low-cut jeans and easy laughter are a plague upon this fine and holy land?


Praise Jesus! Your video game has arrived.

Behold, blessed children, the new and upcoming "Left Behind: Eternal Forces" video game,


What's the game actually about? How do you play? I believe the pro-choice, pro-religion Talk to Action blog describes it best:

    Imagine: you are a foot soldier in a paramilitary group whose purpose is to remake America as a Christian theocracy, and establish its worldly vision of the dominion of Christ over all aspects of life. You are issued high-tech military weaponry, and instructed to engage the infidel on the streets of New York City. You are on a mission -- both a religious mission and a military mission -- to convert or kill Catholics, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, gays, and anyone who advocates the separation of church and state -- especially moderate, mainstream Christians. Your mission is "to conduct physical and spiritual warfare"; all who resist must be taken out with extreme prejudice.

Ah yes, the neo-Christian ideal. The ultimate dominionist police state, a smoking, reeking, post-apocalyptic vision of New York, a world teeming with nonbelievers just waiting to be either converted or massacred by nothing less than a Christianized American Taliban, a world of righteousness and judgment and death, all in the name of one very nasty and bloodthirsty God. It's "Grand Theft Auto" for the Rick Santorum set. It's "Resident Evil 4" for American Family Association types who eat too much BGH meat and never have sex.

Jesus Loves A Machine Gun
It's the new "Left Behind" video game, where you maim and murder and hate, all in God's name. Praise!

by MarekNYC on Sat Jul 15th, 2006 at 03:29:48 AM EST
How many people are we talking about here, exactly?

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Jul 15th, 2006 at 04:28:49 AM EST
15-25% of the US population.  So 45-75 millions Americans.  Maybe a third of them are hard core fundamentalists.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg
by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Sat Jul 15th, 2006 at 08:36:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'd like to see a source for that. And, I'd like to see a source that relates hard core fundamentalism with those who support rapture-based politics. I find it very hard to believe that more than a couple of percent of Americans think this way...
by asdf on Sat Jul 15th, 2006 at 07:58:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If you read in the article.  Unger gives this estimate:

And while their beliefs may seem astounding to secular Americans, they are not unusual. According to a Time/CNN poll from 2002, 59 percent of Americans believe the events in the book of Revelation will take place. There are as many as 70 million Evangelicals in the U.S.--about 25 percent of the population--attending more than 200,000 evangelical churches. Most of these churches are run by pastors who belong to conservative political organizations that make sure their flocks vote as a hard-right Republican bloc.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg
by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Sat Jul 15th, 2006 at 08:32:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Do you accept those numbers? They seem way, way out of kilter to me. Is the suggestion that 59% of the population thinks that American public policy should be based on a literal reading of apocalyptic biblical texts? If so, they sure are good at keeping themselves hidden.
by asdf on Sat Jul 15th, 2006 at 08:38:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
(Sorry, I should know but I can't remember at the moment.) Obviously not in the U.S. or you'd know that the vast majority of Americans are batshit crazy! Here's just a sampling of what Americans believe (and this is from a 2004 poll; it's gotten much, much worse just in the last two years.)

While the portion of Americans who believe in God has remained relatively steady at upward of 90 percent, increasing numbers of Americans believe in heaven, hell, angels and the devil, a new Gallup poll shows.

According to Gallup's Tuesday Briefing report, 81 percent of Americans believe in heaven, and 70 percent believe in hell. Those figures are up from 72 percent and 56 percent, respectively, since 1997.

Belief in heaven or hell is stronger among Republicans, frequent church-goers, Southerners and those with a high school diploma or less.

More than three-fourths of Americans - 78 percent - believe in angels, up from 72 percent in 1994. Belief in the devil has also grown - 70 percent of Americans believe in the devil, up from 65 percent in 1994.

Eighty-four percent of women believe in angels, compared to 72 percent of men. Belief in the devil is about the same for both groups - 70 percent for women, and 69 percent for men.

"As science, technology and rational explanations uncover and explain more and more about the known world, Americans are likely becoming more intrigued by the unknown," said the Rev. Albert Winseman, Gallup's religion and values editor.

The 2004 figures are based on a telephone poll of 519 adults. The poll has a margin of error of plus or minus 5 percentage points.

by Matt in NYC on Sun Jul 16th, 2006 at 05:29:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
He lives in [what he refers to as a solidly republican district of] Colorado.

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jul 16th, 2006 at 05:31:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I live in Colorado Springs. "Evangelical groups with headquarters at Colorado Springs include Compassion International, Focus on the Family, the International Bible Society, The Navigators, Young Life and Youth with a Mission. At one time Colorado Springs was counted to be the national headquarters for 81 different religious organizations..."
by asdf on Sun Jul 16th, 2006 at 09:11:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No wonder I couldn't remember!

Seriously, though, with your neighbors, do you think those numbers are in any way inflated?

by Matt in NYC on Sun Jul 16th, 2006 at 10:46:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, I think they're seriously inflated. There is simply no way that more than 10% of the population (I would guess more like 2%) supports government policies based on an impending rapture event. I can't back that up with statistics, but I don't personally know ANYBODY who thinks that way, and I know a lot of extremely conservative and activist Christians. For example, a friend of mine, who led a multi-year Bible study group at the New Life Church, simply writes that off as something that will happen sometime in the future, but not soon enough to worry about. It's simply not taken as a practical day-to-day issue, just like about 99,000 other religious points.

My view is that America is a pretty conservative country, a pretty religious country, and obviously a big and rich and powerful country. The right wing politicians have done a good job recently of coordinating with the religious right on topics of common interest, but it's something that takes considerable ongoing work. For example:

  • Getting the religious right to be quiet during the 2000 and 2004 elections, in order to not scare off votes from moderates.
  • The administration's weak support for an anti-abortion bill even though that is a (the?) primary issue for the religious right.
  • Making use of church as a political get-together, which can backfire if the church doesn't agree with you.
  • "Creation Care" as an example of where the interests of the big evangelical churches may diverge from that of other big business supporters of the political right.
  • Immigration, where churches tend to take moderate positions.
  • Etc.

It's a very complicated situation, obviously, and right now the big right-wing churches and right-wing politicians have managed to pull together a winning combination. On the other hand, there are plenty of ways that a well-organized left could disrupt that combination. Note that the current Democrats do not constitute a well-organized anything, left or right.
by asdf on Sun Jul 16th, 2006 at 12:44:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Are you a regular churchgoer? (and no, unitarian universalists don't count ;-)

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jul 16th, 2006 at 05:33:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Does the regular taking of communion at the corner bar count?

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg
by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Sun Jul 16th, 2006 at 09:02:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If I'm not mistaken Catholics and Episcopalians don't buy into this rapture bullshit either, do they?

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jul 16th, 2006 at 09:04:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The problem is that if you ask "do you believe in X" then the response will be affirmative because that's part of the whole Christian story. But that doesn't have anything to do with the expectation that we will all be vaporized and sucked into the sky tomorrow--or that our political system should act as if that will happen.
by asdf on Sun Jul 16th, 2006 at 09:14:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
John Paul II said in one of his last encyclicals that Hell did not exist literally but as a spiritual state of separation from God. So a Catholic might well say they don't believe in the Devil, Hell, or the Apocalypse. Catholics have never been encouraged to read and interpret the bible themselves, either, which may make the experience more boring but reduces the likelihood of raving literalist lunatics rising to prominence.

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jul 17th, 2006 at 04:52:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There's a growing number of so-called "evangelical" Catholics who actually DO believe in this stuff. But you're right: in mainstream Catholicism it's frowned upon. (Plus Catholics are only 25% of the American population; Episcopalians are less than one percent.)
by Matt in NYC on Sun Jul 16th, 2006 at 10:49:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
How many people are we talking about here, exactly?

An awful lot of people. You can check different grades of fundamentalism in various polls at PollingReport.com. For example, 55% are 55% literalists in a 2004 poll; a 2002 found 29% who thought the US is a Christian nation plus 16% who thought it's a Biblical [Judeo-Christian] nation; another 2002 poll found 34% taking the self-description "born-again", 16% "fundamentalist" and 15% "evangelical", and 17% who believe (+10% who are unsure) that the Book of Revelation predicts the end of the world in their lifetime (and 23% believed 9/11 was predicted). Note that in the last, other poll numbers that grew since indicate the quoted grew too. In an 1999 poll, 19% believed the Antichrist is on Earth already, and 18% that Jesus will return in their lifetime.

The number of Left Behind books sold, while surely not matching that of believers of fundie Christian Zionism, is also indicative of something -- the last figure I saw quoted is 80 million.

You can check into religious newsgroups on USENET, which are (or were when I frequented USENET) dominated by fundie Americans of the Rapture-believer Christian Taleban type. What I noted is that when they talk about this lunacy, it's with the comfort of speaking about something common-wisdom; e.g. these people live in communities where the lunacy is norm. And Israel did feature on top in their considerations.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sun Jul 16th, 2006 at 01:22:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

When I crossposted the at Daily Kos, I suggested that everyone go to "townhall meetings" for the Republicans who subscribe to this bullshit, and ask them a simple question.

Do you believe the by supporting the state of Israel you are hastening the Rapture?.

Bush was asked about the apocalypse:


from an article
The apocalypse is another word that doesn't come up often in presidential discussions -- at least not in front of the cameras. But it was at the heart of the first question posed to Bush during his Cleveland appearance.

A woman said some Christians see the war in Iraq and the rise of terrorism as signs of the apocalypse -- the destruction of the world as described in the biblical book of Revelation.

"Do you believe this, that the war in Iraq and the rise of terrorism are signs of the apocalypse? And if not, why not?," she asked.

Bush was taken aback. "Hmm," he started.

"The answer is -- I haven't really thought of it that way," he continued, to laughter from the audience. "Here's how I think of it. The first I've heard of that, by the way. I guess I'm more of a practical fellow."

by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Sat Jul 15th, 2006 at 05:46:04 AM EST
yeah, the christian jihadis over here think that the creation of Israel is a sign of the apolocypse, but then they think the same thing about the creation of the EU.

hell, quite a few end-of-the-world prophecies have indeed come true over the years, so who knows?

Some Russian proclaimed the world would end in 1492, and it did (at least for the Native Americans).

The Jehovah's Witnesses said the world would end in 1914, and it did-sort of.

Then there were the some Jews who thought the world would come to an end on New Year's 5700, which is a nice round number. They were off by two days. Hitler invaded Poland just then....

by messy on Sat Jul 15th, 2006 at 08:15:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And then there are all the groups proclaiming the world would end in 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000. And most years before and after...

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se
by A swedish kind of death on Sat Jul 15th, 2006 at 07:20:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"The answer is -- I haven't really thought of it that way," he continued, to laughter from the audience. "Here's how I think of it. The first I've heard of that, by the way. I guess I'm more of a practical fellow."

Course, the word to note is "think". As if that was likely.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sat Jul 15th, 2006 at 04:35:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It is amazing that those holding the delusional world view that an unsophisticated misinterpretation of Christian theology corresponds to reality, fail to realise that (looking at the world they imagine to exist) they not their opponents are the followers of the Anti-Christ. If Satan existed making those who actually serve his will think they opposed him, would be the ultimate triumph of the big lie.

Fortunately the whole idea of the Rapture is complete nonsense. Hopefully the people who actually hold power are not so delusional as to act on this fable.


by Gary J on Sat Jul 15th, 2006 at 04:50:28 PM EST
Haven't you noticed who's running the U.S? I don't question for a moment that Bush is convinced his "leadership" is inspired directly by God. And the worst of it is, in a nation as backward, ignorant and superstitious as the U.S, there's absolutely no public figure who will ever dare argue with him.
by Matt in NYC on Sun Jul 16th, 2006 at 05:34:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thank you, Matt, for making me sound like a moderate. </snark>
Not that I disagree, of course...

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jul 16th, 2006 at 05:40:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You can say the same thing about Harper in Canada.
by messy on Sun Jul 16th, 2006 at 09:08:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
My interpretation of Bush is that he uses extremist religious groups for political advantage without really sharing their views. That is just a guess, but it is the key point.

Bush is a bad President. He may want wider war, but I think his objective is worldly wealth and power not to promote the end of the world. He will achieve that by miscalculation not as a matter of deliberate policy.

by Gary J on Sun Jul 16th, 2006 at 10:13:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
because, I think, it's easier to hate evil & greed than a mental disability. But there's a lot of evidence that Bush really believes he's "chosen." Every book written by people who know him and even comments by other world leaders back this up:


by Matt in NYC on Sun Jul 16th, 2006 at 11:01:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I would use the "don't attribute to malice that which can be explained by incompetence" viewpoint. Bush is a pretty bad president, but his policies do not diverge widely from those of other American politicians on both sides of the aisle. Examples:
  • Defence bill just passed does not reflect any sort of liberal viewpoint whatsoever.
  • Inability of anybody to get any sort of bill through Congress that suggests a change in policy in Iraq.
  • Immigration reform? Hah!
  • Energy reform? Haha!

There is a vocal populist community in the blogosphere that says that there is a constituency for a different set of policies, but they have yet to actually elect anybody to office. And everybody here should know who I mean, and if not, hint: Kos and Co.
by asdf on Sun Jul 16th, 2006 at 12:50:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You have to remember that both houses of the US congress are controlled by Republicans. That will change come January.

Between now and November there's nothing anyone can do about it.

by messy on Sun Jul 16th, 2006 at 05:07:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think the Republicans will retain both houses to everyone's "surprise".

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jul 16th, 2006 at 05:23:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Americans are the least "revolutionary" of peoples, and at this stage it would take a massive voter revolt to make even a minor dent in Republican hegemony.
by Matt in NYC on Mon Jul 17th, 2006 at 12:51:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A "million voter march" camping in front of the Capitol for months demanding nationawide hand recounts might do it. But don't hold your breath for a red-white-and-blue revolution.

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jul 17th, 2006 at 04:41:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, but the defense budget, for example, was passed almost unanimously in the house and unanimously in the Senate. Where's the Democratic movement towards, for example, a reduction in American arms sales to Africa and the Middle East? We're selling F-16s to Pakistan, for crying out loud. Whether you like Pakistan or not, there is no reason for the U.S. to provide this sort of "help"--outside of the competition with Europe, of course.
by asdf on Mon Jul 17th, 2006 at 07:57:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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