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Chomsky and Tom Ricks Talk About the Middle East

by marco Wed Aug 16th, 2006 at 02:51:18 AM EST

I've been trying to verify whether it is true that one of Hezbollah's avowed objectives is the destruction of Israel.  I think I finally got the answer last night from Noam Chomsky on Radio Open Source (the same Internet radio program that I first heard Jerome on).

Chomsky went to Lebanon about two months ago to speak at American University in Beirut, where he was invited to meet with the leader of Hezbollah, Hassan Nasrallah.  Chomsky says of Nasrallah: "measured, reasonable, pragmatic, thought things through, he answers questions explicitly".


Chomsky explains that Hezbollah's "official position" -- repeated to him by Nasrallah -- was that

they don't think Israel is a legitimate state -- but that's the opinion throughout the Arab world.  However ... they will go along with whatever the Palestinians agree to.  And for twenty years, officially, and for many more years tacitly, the Palestinians have been calling for support for the international consensus on a two-state settlement on the international border.  And the Hezb -- Arab League supports that; Iran supports it; and Hezbollah -- Nasrallah says, yeah, they'll support it, too.  They don't like it, but if that's what the Palestineans want, then fine, they won't disrupt.

In other words, according Nasrallah (according to Chomsky), Hezbollah may not like the existence of Israel, but it will accept it, if that is what the Palestineans will accept in order to get a two-state settlement.

The program also includes Pulitzer Prize winning reporter Tom Ricks, author of FIASCO: The American Military Adventure in Iraq, who asks Chomsky (among other things) why the U.S. is effectively transferring power from the Sunnis to Shiites in Iraq, i.e. to precisely those people supporting Hezbollah and Iran, and who fiercely resisted, undermined and killed U.S. forces in Iraq.  Chomsky answers that it basically comes down to the mind-boggling stupidity of the U.S. administration.

The conversation ranges over U.S. war planning, the role of oil in Shiite dominated territories, the neocon "vision" for democracy in the region, the emergence of China, how the Pentagon might be planning to deal with Iran, and the role of the Palestinean conflict in the larger so-called rise of extremist militant Islam.

Display:
More sources for you on the same theme:

  • a 2004 Haaretz article describes a study of Hezbollah's military behavior after 2000 by an Israeli professor.

  • Helena Cobban on Hezbollah. This rather long piece not only covers the Hezbollah-Israel-Palestinians relationship from Hezbollah's point of view, but also Hezbollah in Lebanon's internal politics. (I note I linked this while making a point about not confusing rhetoric and strategy, you then asked me about the very same subject in the very same thread, leaving me wondering what else you want me to say -- but from this diary I realise you must have missed it.)

  • Also relevant is the beginning of the sub-thread (with a link and names you can Google)regarding the "driving Israel into the sea" line.

  • Furthermore, a lot can be lost or created in translation -- read this Breakfast subthread regarding translations of utterances by Nasrallah.

Finally I note that the whole question is moot. Even if some Arab terror or guerilla group or state vowed to destroy Israel in no unclear terms, that has no chance of being more than rhetoric.

  1. Groups using terror as tactic cannot pose an existential threat to a foreign state. That's the very essence of terrorism, it is a weapon of the weak, one that is supposed to work through psychology (but most often only emboldens the opposed government and radicals in its population to reduce respect for rights, at home and abroad). This is true for Hamas suicide bombers, Hezbollah Katyushas, and al-Kaida bombers.

  2. Guerilla groups cannot invade and conquer a foreign state. That's the very essence of guerilla groups, they melt into the population, they use their knowledge of the local environment: these aren't capabilities useful for invasion and occupation. This is true for Hamas in Gaza and Hezbollah in South Lebanon.

  3. No state can pose an existential threat threat to Israel. Israel is a nuclear power, with nukes deployed on strategic submarines. Israel has a retaliatory capacity no attacking state can hope to survive. (To boot, nuclear strikes on Israel would hit the Palestinians, and holy Jerusalem, too.)


*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Aug 16th, 2006 at 08:36:10 AM EST
Thanks very much for the response.  I have tried to write back two times already, but gave up.  Basically, I wanted to say:

I believe Nasrallah if he did in fact tell Chomsky that Hezbollah is willing to accept the existence of Israel if that is what the Palestineans want.

However, the question of whether Hezbollah (or Hamas) has as an avowed objective the destruction of Israel is not moot.  (I will try to explain why later in another comment, but as I said, I've already tried and failed to put my reasons into words twice already.)

Furthermore, this comment below by wchurchill led me to a document which I was not aware of when I wrote the diary, and whose existence (though not specific contents) I was disappointed to find confirmed in the Cobban article you referenced.

In the hopes of writing something more coherent, I'll to try address each of your points with an individual comment.  May take a while.

Point n'est besoin d'espérer pour entreprendre, ni de réussir pour persévérer. - Charles le Téméraire

by marco on Wed Aug 16th, 2006 at 08:27:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
a 2004 Haaretz article describes a study of Hezbollah's military behavior after 2000 by an Israeli professor.

Thanks for that.  It seems to confirm what I recently read by Robert Pape, that terrorism subsided once Israel left Lebanon:

What these suicide attackers -- and their heirs today -- shared was not a religious or political ideology but simply a commitment to resisting a foreign occupation. Nearly two decades of Israeli military presence did not root out Hezbollah. The only thing that has proven to end suicide attacks, in Lebanon and elsewhere, is withdrawal by the occupying force.


Point n'est besoin d'espérer pour entreprendre, ni de réussir pour persévérer. - Charles le Téméraire
by marco on Wed Aug 16th, 2006 at 08:28:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
it'd be nice if ameriva got that....but then they'd have to cede tgose huge bases, and all that lovely petroleum to the chinese...

not a Good Thing

a Goo thing though...

i can see the military recruiters now:

'let's cut to the chase....you want cheap gas to tun your camaros, then put on that uniform!'

'but what about democracy and liberty and protecting our values?'

'same thing, sucker...'

the american way of life may not be negotiable, but it sure is expensive.

it'd be cheaper to design cars to run on blood, and just open a vein when you need to go shopping...

sheez

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri Aug 18th, 2006 at 03:05:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Helena Cobban on Hezbollah. This rather long piece not only covers the Hezbollah-Israel-Palestinians relationship from Hezbollah's point of view, but also Hezbollah in Lebanon's internal politics. (I note I linked this while making a point about not confusing rhetoric and strategy, you then asked me about the very same subject in the very same thread, leaving me wondering what else you want me to say -- but from this diary I realise you must have missed it.)

I did miss this the first time, but have read it now.

I stand corrected from my first comment above: Cobban does confirm the specific contents of Hezbollah's "open letter":

It called for expelling French and American influence from Lebanon and for "obliterating" the state of Israel.

She does qualify this text by saying:

The standing of that latter part of the "open letter" in Hizbullah's thinking, both then and now, is in some question.

Nevertheless, the fact that this verbiage --

Our primary assumption in our fight against Israel states that the Zionist entity is aggressive from its inception, and built on lands wrested from their owners, at  the expense of the rights of the Muslim people.  Therefore our struggle will end only when this entity is obliterated.

-- has never been clearly repudiated beyond "question" to me is enough reason to lend credence to its authenticity and continuing relevance.

Cobban does go on to explain how Hezbollah's actual behavior contrasts with its "maximalist rhetoric", the point of your comment on that other thread.  But I remain unconvinced that this makes the rhetoric irrelevant and something to just ignore and dismiss.  Again, I'll try to explain why I think so in another comment.  For now, the existence of the obliteration of Israel language in Hezbollah's open letter was disheartening to discover, and I wish Sobelman or Cobban could have debunked it rather than simply tried to mitigate or qualify it.

Point n'est besoin d'espérer pour entreprendre, ni de réussir pour persévérer. - Charles le Téméraire

by marco on Wed Aug 16th, 2006 at 09:08:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Regarding Hizbollah's 1985 letter, some further points beyond contradicting the obliterate-Israel passus in practice.

The letter also states that they recognise no "treaty, ceasefire or peace treaty" with Israel. This is also contradicted by practice, for example the 1996 agreement with Israel about rules of conflict (which was held to by both sides until the current outbreak), and the 2004 prisoner exchange.

It also calls for the establishment of an Islamic state (though explicitly saying they want it by the will of the people and not force). Despite continuing strong ties with Iran, this goal was abadoned in practice and mostly in rhetoric (Hezbollah is more liberal than the US-groomed pro-Sistani Shi'a parties in Iraq). Nasrallah said of this in 2004:

We believe the requirement for an Islamic state is to have an overwhelming popular desire, and we're not talking about fifty percent plus one, but a large majority. And this is not available in Lebanon and probably never will be.

I close this by recommending two further articles on Hizbollah:

  • Adam Shatz: In Search of Hezbollah is an account more critical than Cobban's, but also with some details on the other Janus face or general background lacking in Cobban.
  • Lara Deeb: Hizballah: A Primer discusses the group from different aspects separately, again with details missing from or adding to those in the previous two, and is the freshest of them: written during the war last month.


*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Aug 22nd, 2006 at 07:00:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Also relevant is the beginning of the sub-thread (with a link and names you can Google)regarding the "driving Israel into the sea" line.

Noted.  Not surprising.  This is precisely the sort of debunking I was looking for regarding this --

Therefore our struggle will end only when this entity is obliterated.

and this --

Our primary assumption in our fight against Israel states that the Zionist entity is aggressive from its inception, and built on lands wrested from their owners, at  the expense of the rights of the Muslim people.  Therefore our struggle will end only when this entity is obliterated.


Point n'est besoin d'espérer pour entreprendre, ni de réussir pour persévérer. - Charles le Téméraire
by marco on Wed Aug 16th, 2006 at 09:16:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Furthermore, a lot can be lost or created in translation -- read this Breakfast subthread regarding translations of utterances by Nasrallah.

Yes, but in my diary, Chomsky was paraphrasing Nasrallah.  Obviously, his translator may have misspoken; Chomsky himself may have misinterpreted.  But I would be extremely surprised if Chomsky intentionally misrepresented Nasrallah's words in order to make Hezbollah look more bellicose towards Israel than it is.

In any case, his statement that "they [Hezbollah] don't think Israel is a legitimate state" is not controversial, is it?  i.e. It is not controversial that Hezbollah does not think Israel is a legitimate state, right?  (I consider the non-recognition of a state and an avowed intent to destroy that state to be quite distinct; in particular, the former does not imply the latter.)

Point n'est besoin d'espérer pour entreprendre, ni de réussir pour persévérer. - Charles le Téméraire

by marco on Wed Aug 16th, 2006 at 09:22:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, but in my diary, Chomsky was paraphrasing Nasrallah.

I wasn't disputing what you quoted from Chomsky, it was a general note when one tries to interpret his words (using other quotes from him). You point just to one of those fine distinctions I would want to make:

In any case, his statement that "they [Hezbollah] don't think Israel is a legitimate state" is not controversial, is it?  i.e. It is not controversial that Hezbollah does not think Israel is a legitimate state, right?  (I consider the non-recognition of a state and an avowed intent to destroy that state to be quite distinct; in particular, the former does not imply the latter.)

Also, even if someone wants a transition from an illegal to a legal situation, that could take many forms - beyond destroying one side and deporting one side and peaceful exodus of one side: a two-state solution with borders newly agreed to and recognised by all parties, or a one-state solution based on individual equality, or a one-state solution based on communal equality, or a one-state solution based on toleration of one community by the other. (I emphasize, thinking of other readers, that whether one of these visions is desired or viable are again separate things.) (Finally I also note what Chomsky wrote, that not recognising Israel as a legitimate state is the official position of many Arab couintries, if I am not mistaken including Lebanon itself.)

On the other hand, I will not deny that Nasrallah's notion of Israel as an illegitimate state has more negative consequences, in that when he spoke out in support of Hamas suicide attacks as a means to create mutual deterrence, he argued that all Israelis as illegal occupants, thus denying the importance of the civilian/military distinction in Israel's special case. (Yet again, it must be noted that since then even Hamas was forced to change thinking on suicide bombings of civilians both due to ineffectiveness and negative reactions even in the Arab world, while Hezbollah itself has not applied it even against military targets for almost a decade.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Aug 22nd, 2006 at 06:40:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Finally I note that the whole question is moot. Even if some Arab terror or guerilla group or state vowed to destroy Israel in no unclear terms, that has no chance of being more than rhetoric.

It would not be moot for two reasons:

  • No matter how well Hezbollah behaved in practice with respect to Israel, it would always leave the possibility for a reversal down the line, a "backdoor" to "founding principles":  This uncertainty would prevent the international political situation from ever becoming stable and a true normalization of relations between groups in the Middle East would be impossible.

  • Even if in fact Hezbollah cannot destroy Israel -- and I do find your three points pretty persuasive on this -- that is not what is relevant.  What is relevant is what people perceive/believe/hope/dream to be possible: that is seed enough for staggering amounts of mayhem.  Exhibit 1: The Japanese attack on the "sleeping giant" on December 7, 1941.  Exhibit 2: The U.S. project to liberate and democratize Iraq.  Right now, Nasrallah seems to be living in the reality-based community.  But the existence of "Israel must be obliterated" language as part of Hezbollah's avowed objectives would be enough fuel for a Hezbollah version of neocons to exploit as they wish, should such a group ever gain power in the future.

I am prepared to believe that Nasrallah, and the Hezbollah leadership in general, would recognize the state of Israel if the Palestinians desired it as part of a two-state settlement.  I think it would be great if Hezbollah -- and Hamas -- took the first step and gained the moral highground by unilaterally disavowing their past destruction of Israel language.  At a swoop, this would take away a huge arguing point from Israelis who ask, "How can anyone expect us to negotiate with/recognize an organization that explicitly seeks our destruction?" as well gain massive amounts of goodwill from around the world.

Point n'est besoin d'espérer pour entreprendre, ni de réussir pour persévérer. - Charles le Téméraire
by marco on Thu Aug 17th, 2006 at 04:59:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No matter how well Hezbollah behaved in practice with respect to Israel, it would always leave the possibility for a reversal down the line, a "backdoor" to "founding principles"

I think that 'always' only lasts until it can become a bargaining matter, would peace negotiations start -- as it happened with the PLO. But there is no official peace between either Lebanon and Israel or Hezbollah and Israel, there never has been one.

What is relevant is what people perceive/believe/hope/dream to be possible: that is seed enough for staggering amounts of mayhem.

That's correct (and the kidnap operation is an example on a smaller scale), but I don't find your analogies to be good ones. While Japan was weaker than the 'sleeping giant', that war wasn't assymmetrical warfare, only an attack by a force that had similar capabilities but was weaker, and more importantly it wasn't an attempted invasion and conquest. The Iraq example is closer in that respect (a future Arab invader of Israel that can neutralise Israel's nukes might very well be surprised by a Jewish version of Hezbollah), but Iraq was an example of a mistake by the stronger, of hubris and ignorance in the use of very real full-spectrum powers.

But the existence of "Israel must be obliterated" language as part of Hezbollah's avowed objectives would be enough fuel for a Hezbollah version of neocons to exploit as they wish, should such a group ever gain power in the future.

That is a very good point. Thinking it further, assassinating Nasrallah might produce a worse outcome for Israel. Though should this eventuality come, still I don't see more practical result possible than increased terror and border attacks (staggering amounts of mayhem, but no threat to Israel's existence).

I think it would be great if Hezbollah -- and Hamas -- took the first step and gained the moral highground by unilaterally disavowing their past destruction of Israel language.  At a swoop, this would take away a huge arguing point from Israelis who ask, "How can anyone expect us to negotiate with/recognize an organization that explicitly seeks our destruction?" as well gain massive amounts of goodwill from around the world.

On this, we agree, but I can also see why that road is not taken. Not only would supporters feel they are giving something for nothing in return (e.g. "difficult to sell to the base"), but Hezbollah or Hamas leaders and supporters would think of the fate of the PLO when they took that road, or of the IDF's 'reaction' when Hamas seemed to move in that direction (when Fatah forced consent to a referendum and then Israel shelled the beach), or to unilateral goodwill moves in general (Hamas's 15-month-long unilateral ceasefire that only got them further dozens of targeted assassinations, and was barely emphasized or even mentioned in the US or even European press). (Where I think this thinking is strategically wrong is not distinguishing short-term and long-term benefits: a change sweeping through public perception and political elites' perception to significant policy change in the West or at least in Europe would take years.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Aug 22nd, 2006 at 06:16:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This is in my opinion more wishful thinking than reality I am afraid.  People like Nasrallah has a tendency to say things depending on his audience and that is why I am very sceptical to what ever comes out of his mouth.  

Bitsofnews.com Giving you the latest bits.
by Gjermund E Jansen (gjans1@hotmail.com) on Wed Aug 16th, 2006 at 10:33:14 AM EST
It does make sense, though. The "reality" is that Hezbollah would be unable to wipe out Israel even if they tried, but it is able to defend Southern Lebanon from an IDF incursion. So the quotation by Nasrallah is consistent with "reality".

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Aug 16th, 2006 at 10:45:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, I agree that Hezbollah does not at the moment represent an existential threat to Israel but that is not my point.  The point I was trying to make is that this organization wants to see the Israeli State wiped off the Middle-Eastern map and thus poses a threat to the lives of Israelis never-the-less and thus can not be ignored.  

A State is to protect its population from any danger, existential or not.  To most Israelis Nasrallahs words are of no reassurance and does not represent what they believe is the reality.  The keyword here is trust, of which there is very little of, if any, between the parties in the area, even less than between the two adversaries the Soviet Union and the US during the Cold War. If Nasrallah has a tendency to say one thing one day and another the next how can they trust his words and deem it reality? To the Israelis it is just an act concealing what he really means.  

They believe, and so do I frankly, that even if the Palestinians get there own State in the West bank and Gaza, Nasrallah has his own vision of how the Middle-East ought to look like in the future.  They believe that he will continue sending rockets into Israel and kill and kidnap Israeli soldiers in cross border raids regardless of the Palestinians and the more weapons he get the grimmer the future looks, meaning his capabilities of doing harm enhances.  

Bitsofnews.com Giving you the latest bits.

by Gjermund E Jansen (gjans1@hotmail.com) on Wed Aug 16th, 2006 at 11:30:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Wikipedia's write up on Hezbollah also makes it difficult to trust the above words in this diary:
Position on Israel
There is a deep enmity between Hezbollah and Israel. One of the reasons for the founding of Hezbollah was resistance against the occupation of Lebanon by Israel (1978-2000), which extended to a desire for the elimination of "the Zionist entity"[7] [5][40][41] Secretary-General Nasrallah's official stance is that "Israel is an illegal usurper entity, which is based on falsehood, massacres, and illusions, and there is no chance for its survival."[42] The Age quotes him as saying: "There is no solution to the conflict in this region except with the disappearance of Israel."[43]
In an interview with the Washington Post, Nasrallah said "I am against any reconciliation with Israel. I do not even recognize the presence of a state that is called "Israel." I consider its presence both unjust and unlawful. That is why if Lebanon concludes a peace agreement with Israel and brings that accord to the Parliament our deputies will reject it; Hezbollah refuses any conciliation with Israel in principle." [44].
Despite the strident rhetoric, in recent interviews Nasrallah has answered questions concerning the establishment of a Palestinian state established alongside an Israeli state in a way which suggested that the organization no longer has the intent to destroy the state of Israel. .
The article continues with comments that are more conciliatory toward Israel, and obviously inconsistent with the part I have quoted.  I would have quoted it all, but was worried about rules violations on quoting sources.  the reference will give you the full comments.
by wchurchill on Wed Aug 16th, 2006 at 12:42:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Much obliged.  

Bitsofnews.com Giving you the latest bits.
by Gjermund E Jansen (gjans1@hotmail.com) on Wed Aug 16th, 2006 at 01:20:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Gjermund, you sahould really read the firsat two links in my top-level comment.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Aug 16th, 2006 at 03:14:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, I have read the two articles that you have linked to at the top level comment and can not say that they in any way changes my views on the Lebanon-conflict.  I do not deny that Hezbollah does a lot of good to the poor Shiite population in the south, but this of course is a part of the strategy to win over "hearts and minds" amongst the Shiite population.  If you add to this that the Shiite population probably constitutes the majority of the population in the country it should come as no surprise that Hezbollah is advocating a "one-man-one-vote"- system.  I do not dispute that this is fair, only that we should be well advised not to label Hezbollah a pro-democracy organization on that note alone, as Helena Cobban seems to imply.  Hitler, and FIS in Algeria both used the democratic system in order to gain political power, but only Hitler managed to reach the top only to dismantle democracy altogether.  

The cross border attack on the 12th of July seems to torpedo what the two articles are implying, that peace and tranquillity is now the new credo of Hezbollah.  According to one of the two articles you linked to, Iran even had to intervene in order to calm down Nasrallah's warmongering that is the previous Iranian government of course.  I guess Hezbollah needed to re-supply and build its arsenal once more before they tried again.  Also have in mind that most of Hezbollah's popularity is drawn from its previous engagements with the IDF, another engagement with the IDF would surely boost their popularity once more.

Still, Cobban seems to imply that Hezbollah's hatred of the Israeli state is a serious obstacle to peace in the region.  In an area where distrust is the order of the day Nasrallah's pragmatism is deemed suspicious because he seems to be able to slip into different clothes to often.  Pragmatism is of course needed in negotiations, but what is even more important is commitment and gestures of goodwill.  Unfortunately, none of the parties have been willing to take the first step in such a direction, so far.  

Bitsofnews.com Giving you the latest bits.

by Gjermund E Jansen (gjans1@hotmail.com) on Wed Aug 16th, 2006 at 05:30:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
to win over "hearts and minds" amongst the Shiite population.

Well, isn't that the job of every politician? I think the allusion "hearts and minds" recalls should limit its use to foreign occupiers.

we should be well advised not to label Hezbollah a pro-democracy organization on that note alone, as Helena Cobban seems to imply

She has not argued so on that note alone.

Hitler, and FIS in Algeria both used the democratic system in order to gain political power, but only Hitler managed to reach the top only to dismantle democracy altogether.

Do you think FIS was intent on dismantling democracy (like the military did in practice)? Or to ask it differently, do you see FIS, GIA etc. as homogenous? Regarding Hizbollah, I quote Nasrallah from a (more critical than Cobban's) article by Adam Shatz:

We believe the requirement for an Islamic state is to have an overwhelming popular desire, and we're not talking about fifty percent plus one, but a large majority. And this is not available in Lebanon and probably never will be.

The cross border attack on the 12th of July seems to torpedo what the two articles are implying, that peace and tranquillity is now the new credo of Hezbollah.

I don't think limited retaliatory attacks is the same as "peace and tranquillity is now the new credo". (This is a rhetorical hyperbole which then lead to some unrealitybased arguments in your second paragraph.) Given Israeli attacks and overflights of Lebanon in the months before 12 July, and the on-going assault on Gaza, it wasn't out of line. (I note that the handover of the captives Hezbollah wants from Israel in return for the captured soldiers was already agreed for in the 2004 prisoner exchange, but the Israeli government reneged on that in the last minute despite a favorable Israeli Supreme Court ruling.)

According to one of the two articles you linked to, Iran even had to intervene in order to calm down Nasrallah's warmongering that is the previous Iranian government of course.

You'll find another account of that in the above linked article, it was during the Israeli campaign culminating in the assassination of Sheikh Yassin. The culmination of Hezbollah's 'warmongering', the missile barrage on camps in the Shebaa Farms followed this (and Cobban quotes Silberman here). I'm not sure where your Iranian argument leads, but let's see where it leads after considering this quote from the above linked article:

It was Khamenei who reportedly influenced Hezbollah's decision to maintain its armed wing rather than devote all its energies to Lebanese politics after Israel's withdrawal from southern Lebanon in May 2000.

Also have in mind that most of Hezbollah's popularity is drawn from its previous engagements with the IDF

Now is it "hearts and minds" or military action?

Pragmatism is of course needed in negotiations, but what is even more important is commitment and gestures of goodwill.

Well, on one hand, methinks in that Machiavellian world, that must come from the stronger party not the weaker one (the stronger will only see a weakness to exploit for further gains), on the other hand, going beyond Hezbollah, Hamas already tried that (its long unilateral ceasefire) and got nothing in return (or more correctly got a lot of assassinations).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Aug 22nd, 2006 at 07:38:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This article by Jeffrey Goldberg is a very good read and, in my opinion, portrays why many people have problems in trusting and supporting the Hezbollah organization.

Bitsofnews.com Giving you the latest bits.
by Gjermund E Jansen (gjans1@hotmail.com) on Wed Aug 16th, 2006 at 12:04:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah, I knew I remember the name, that Jeffrey Goldberg.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Aug 16th, 2006 at 03:40:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Considering the source I'll take the fisking of Jeffrey Goldberg about a seriously as I would one coming from FrontPageMag.
by MarekNYC on Wed Aug 16th, 2006 at 03:55:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I know you equate CounterPunch with the likes of FrontPageMag, so what I remembewred without a link just for you: Jeffrey Goldberg was the pro-Iraq-war journalist who wrote the piece about a guy kept in prison by Kurdish forces in North Lebanon who 'admitted' to having been a link between Saddam and al-Qaida, a story that fell apart in a week when other journalists checked details, and was finally buried a year later when an Observer reporter again went on the ground.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Aug 16th, 2006 at 04:14:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks for the reminder, I'd forgotten about that article.  In the case of the WMD stuff my impression is that Goldberg had gone to Kurdistan to report on Anfal and got conned by the Iraqi opposition there, rightly seeing him as someone whose (understandable) hostility to Saddam would make him a credulous tool. But I still find his reporting on Hezbollah to be quite good - he's not someone writing his screeds in NYC or DC based on what he's fed there, but rather someone who goes and spends months on the ground talking to everyone he can, from the bottom to the top. Sure he's biased, that's a given on anything related to the Israeli-Arab conflict. But it is useful to read genuine reporting from people of all political slants precisely because of that, and because confirmation bias is especially strong on this issue.  

While we're talking about Goldberg, I'd recommend his very long story on the settler movement though you might not want to read it if you have a problem with reporters writing about people whose politics they strongly dislike. ;)

Among the Settlers: Will they destroy Israel?

by MarekNYC on Wed Aug 16th, 2006 at 11:53:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
...he's not someone writing his screeds in NYC or DC based on what he's fed there, but rather someone who goes and spends months on the ground talking to everyone he can, from the bottom to the top. Sure he's biased, that's a given on anything related to the Israeli-Arab conflict. But it is useful to read genuine reporting from people of all political slants precisely because of that, and because confirmation bias is especially strong on this issue.

OK, I can agree with the above. But pointing out the bias (and history of being credulous as a reporter on the ground asking everyone from bottom to top) is worthwile.

While we're talking about Goldberg, I'd recommend his very long story on the settler movement though you might not want to read it if you have a problem with reporters writing about people whose politics they strongly dislike. ;)

Sarcasm, sarcasm, but I already knew that piece, for which he got some flak from the Likudnik wing of US Zionists. You could accuse me of omitting to mention it, though I planned to do just that in another comment I had no time for.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Aug 22nd, 2006 at 07:45:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah well, after reading the Counterpunch article by Alexander Cockburn I cannot say that he comes across as less biased in his reporting than Jeffrey Goldberg does.  

Bitsofnews.com Giving you the latest bits.
by Gjermund E Jansen (gjans1@hotmail.com) on Wed Aug 16th, 2006 at 04:21:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Could you elaborate?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Aug 16th, 2006 at 04:37:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If Cockburn and CounterPunch aren't to be trusted, you can read another serious critique of journalist Goldberg in Harper's Magazine. If you want to read the Observer's piece on the claimed al-Qaida--Saddam link, read it here.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Aug 16th, 2006 at 04:55:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
BTW I didn't realise he was also the guy publishing another WMD lie, the aflatoxin claim.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Aug 16th, 2006 at 04:58:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Clever I have to admit, you are linking to an article by a man called Ken Silverstein, who happens to belong to the same political environment as Cockburn.  Cockburn is the editor of Counterpunch and a known anti-zionist and Silverstein just happen to be the founder of the same website, nifty.  

With due all respect you can not claim that these guys are objective in their covering of the Middle-East.  From  what little I have read about Goldberg he seems to advocate a pro-Iraqi War stance, something that I happen to disagree with, but that does not automatically disqualify the guy from having his sound moments.  

Bitsofnews.com Giving you the latest bits.

by Gjermund E Jansen (gjans1@hotmail.com) on Wed Aug 16th, 2006 at 06:22:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Can you point to an objective source in their coverage of the Middle East?

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Aug 16th, 2006 at 06:26:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Nope, not really and that is my point.  I find it a bit futile to hit each other in the head with different journalists and websites.  Note that I also added, in my opinion, when I linked to the article, I didn't claim that it was objective or in any way very neutral only that I found it interesting.

The reason for me linking to Goldberg's article is that much of what is said by Ezzedin and Fadllalah happen to coincide with other sources that I have read about Hezbollah and the statements coming from these two only strengthen the views I had about Hezbollah from before.  These statements do not seem neither out of place nor unlikely coming from these people and thus could be deemed quite plausible and trustworthy, in my opinion, regardless of the political standings of the journalist responsible for the article.  

I guess that what I am saying is that even if some of these sources can be linked in some shape or form to the current US administration, I do not necessarily deem it proof of another neo-con conspiracy.  Interesting and good arguments can even, once in a while, come from political adversaries like Goldberg seems to be at least when it comes to his stance on the Iraq-war.          

Bitsofnews.com Giving you the latest bits.

by Gjermund E Jansen (gjans1@hotmail.com) on Wed Aug 16th, 2006 at 07:03:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks, this is a good rational discussion and a good reference for my own writing. mahalo.

alohapolitics.com
by Keone Michaels on Wed Aug 16th, 2006 at 12:46:59 PM EST
I second this.  this has been a very good diary.  good references and good discussions.
by wchurchill on Wed Aug 16th, 2006 at 10:47:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What is the position of Hezbollah about the return of Israel to it's previous owners, the Ottomans--AKA Turkey?
by asdf on Wed Aug 16th, 2006 at 10:40:04 PM EST
Quite honestly, I don't trust anyone in power in the Middle East.  They're all two-faced.  I think the Muslims would greatly enjoy having the ability to destroy Israel, just as I believe Israelis would like nothing more than to wipe out the Muslims.  They're all insane, and I'm tired of dealing with them.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Thu Aug 17th, 2006 at 10:54:39 AM EST
i know what you mean...it's as if evolution was preparing to jettison the 'pointless religious conflict' gene, and had those humans over-inflicted all collect in one place, the better to annihilate each other.

in fact war only makes any sense when seen to be the rapid extinction of stupidity, a meta-boil of evil arising to the surface of the groupmind, so it can be softly lanced and compassionately drained.

with bombs and bullets...not!

with overpaid, vain diplomats all having 5star lunches for months, then coming out to press conferences and saying: ' we made a little progress today bla bla'

guess so...

spasm...

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri Aug 18th, 2006 at 03:30:39 AM EST


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