Welcome to European Tribune. It's gone a bit quiet around here these days, but it's still going.

Grrr...Damn European slackers who don't care about the GDP!

by Jerome a Paris Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 06:40:38 AM EST

Wolfgang Munchau is at it again:

More work and less play is the best policy for Europe

Perhaps the single most detrimental policy in Europe has been early retirement, which started in the 1980s. It placed a heavy financial burden on social insurance systems and had a lethal impact on the services sector. Europe’s early retirees have developed curious hobbies, such as plumbing. Even the famous Polish plumbers cannot compete with this. Europe’s do-it-yourself retirees do not mind spending hours queuing in discount supermarkets. They cook at home, rather than go to restaurants. With so much time on their hands, they do the jobs they once paid others to do.

So he essentially notes that European are not poorer - they just do things in ways that are not measured in the GDP. That's bad and MUST be reformed!

Cooking is an economic crime! DIY is an economic crime! They make our economies sclerotic and all of us poorer! We have to force these retirees to get back to work and get their meals and home repairs done by the right people, i.e. corporations!

This is mind numbing. No mention of changing GDP as the only indicator of prosperity...


In an other priceless admission, the article starts with the note that US productivity numbers which were thought to be much higher than Europe's have been reevalued downwards. The natural conclusion?

As an explanation of why Europeans are on average so much poorer than Americans, productivity is a partial answer at best (...)

One should not question the "Europeans are poorer than Americans" absolute. Therefore the explanation must be elsewhere (i.e. even if they work well enough, Europeans don't work enough.

Robert Gordon, professor of economics of Northwestern University in Chicago*, has tried to account for the gap in living standards – as measured in per capita GDP – in a recent paper. The basis of his calculations are 2004 data, which show EU productivity at about 90 per cent of US levels, while the EU’s real per capita income is only about 70 per cent – broadly unchanged since the 1970s. He found the biggest single factor was the fall in hours worked per employee – Europe’s proverbial long holidays and short working hours. He calculates that the gap would be reduced by 8 percentage points if one put a fair price on an hour of leisure. This calculation assumes shorter working hours and long holidays are largely voluntary.

It all falls in place. We are forced to work less than we want to (because of these evil rigid outdated unreformed socialist policies) and thus we are poor.

What can one say?

Display:
I was pondering in the shower this morning how much of the GDP gap was due to Europeans actually taking holidays. Little did I know that this was a problem.

Incidentially, I don't suppose that having all our fucking infrastructure destroyed fifty years ago made any difference? A few military dictatorships? Absorption of economies mangled by the Cold War?

On top of that he's conflating wealth with income again. As you've pointed out wealth and income aren't the same thing, and neither can you conflate income and poverty in the batshit stupid way he does. How do you count public services in personal wealth? You don't? There's a shock.

And then onto that stupid survey which pointed out that many Europeans would be willing to work more than 35hrs a week if they were suitable compensated. Though I'm interested to see the logic that proves this will help with unemployment.

Europe's relatively low employment-to-population ratio contributes little to justify the gap as it is largely involuntary. Prof Gordon also made adjustments to US GDP to account for factors not present in the EU, such as America's high prison population. Taken together, these items reflect about two-thirds of the gap between the EU/US ratio of per capita income and productivity.

I've heard that sort of argument before somewhere. Additionally, what makes him think that the US's high employment-to-population ratio isn't largely involuntary as well.

This nonsense needs a LTE I think.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 07:04:03 AM EST
Further to our recent conversation on the topic, since involuntary things seem to exercise him so much, perhaps we could ask dear old Wolfgang to investigate for us how much underuse of vacation time in the US is voluntary in any meaningful sense of the word.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 07:10:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
employment-to-population ratio is higher in France than in the USA for men of 25-54 age. At the "rich" european level including women of the same age, I don't know but I don't think it's that much different if not higher in Europe.

As discussed here, 100% employment of age 15-24 and 55-130 is certainly not an absolute good thing for society, why include these age range in a number and then just say higher is better?

by Laurent GUERBY on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 07:33:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Can you start the LTE? I'm not sure I can right now.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 07:55:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I was trying to think of a coherent plan of attack that didn't just sound like a shrill scream of horror and outrage.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 07:56:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
For the moment I haven't the faintest idea of where to start on this.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 08:06:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Effective propaganda, isn't it?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 08:07:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm sure it would be revealing to discover how many weeks of holiday this eejit has taken over the last few years.

I suspect he doesn't, personally, work a 60 hour week on a regular basis.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 11:16:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
After mind-mapping his little rant to make sense of it I have the following points:

  • The article highlights the problem inherent in choosing GDP as the sole or primary measure of an economy's health or income. GDP neither measures, nor is a proxy for, wealth.

  • Despite rambling on about involuntary short hours and an involuntary lower participation rate he fails to point out that the higher rates in the US may not be voluntary either. How many people really work sixty hours a week voluntarily?

  • Who would benefit from his prescriptions? Not the retired who would no longer have the time to cook or enjoy their hobbies. Not the workers who would be forced into longer working hours without adequate compensation. His prescriptions are designed to shift the balance of power further in the direction of employers in order to increase corporate profits. That's where any increase in GDP would go.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 08:26:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Munchau Article

  • assumptions
    • Fast GDP growth is vital
      • Ignore any wealth we can't measure
      • Shows the poverty of the over-emphasis on GDP, not Europe's problems
  • US figures make EU not look so bad
    • Implicit GDP used to benchmark "reforms"
    • Conflates wealth and income
  • Per capita GDP
    • productivity
      • not main cause, despite recent witterings of pundits
    • working hours per employee
      • work harder, not smarter
      • higher value placed on holidays?
        • measure by valuing
        • attack by suggesting they're not voluntary
        • is the lack of US holidays voluntary?
          • crappy poll from last week cited
        • are 80 hour weeks voluntary?
        • written off because it's "subjective"
    • employment rate
      • why is a low rate clearly bad?
      • Is the high US rate voluntary?
      • Early retirement is bad
        • they don't spend as much on services
        • don't mind queueing so much
        • good news - it's less prevalent
          • why is this good news?
          • why is slower gdp growth a problem, exactly
            • taken as article of faith
        • they have time to cook
  • prescription
    • but a low rate of per capita working time, governments should focus on policies to end restrictions on working hours, to phase out early retirement schemes or to increase incentives for the unemployed to take up work.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 08:27:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I have literally sat here for 5 mins with this window open trying to compose a comment.

Apart from abuse for the esteemed Mr. Munchau, I guess my response is that we're basically dealing with two different views of the universe.

And we're on the losing side if we can't invent some metrics that we can propagandise our view of life through.

They need to be childishly simplistic and preferably autistically oriented to material questions, so these economics commentators can get their head around them.

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 07:07:24 AM EST
Brad de Long recently went on a Marx-bashing spree, but Marx saw all this coming. If we measure our prosperity by Return on Capital, then we're chasing after a will-o-the-wisp. We work harder and harder for a faceless employer, and stay unhappy, and we imagine the cure for our unhappiness is to work for the employer some more.

We console ourselves that it's all for the sake of an easy retirement, and then the economist comes along to tell us that's bad and wrong; the Return on Capital is an end in itself, and retiring early is a betrayal of that end.

The answer is to work for yourself, your neighbours, and the world as much you can, and for your employers as little. They're giving you the smallest wage they can, give them the least labour in return.

by Del C on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 01:40:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
BTW, best post about the Marx discussion is at Stumbling and Mumbing:


Reading Marx (and Smith)

Brad De Long makes a couple of good points about reading Marx. But let's be clear - they do not invalidate Marxism.
Point 1 - it's just silly to read Marx "line by line, paragraph by paragraph (at least in the early chapters), discussing and arguing over every page."
True. To get the most out of Capital vol I - for Christ's sake don't call it Das Kapital, unless you're in the habit of calling all foreign language books by their original title - you should read it from the middle.
Start with chapters 10-15. Then read part 8. Only then, start at the beginning, if you must. You'll learn the following, among other things:
1. Marx was a great empiricist; the chapters are crammed with facts about the 19th C economy and living conditions. The idea that he's an idle Hegelian arm-waving theorist is plain wrong.
[...]

by Laurent GUERBY on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 04:01:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Perhaps the single most detrimental policy in Europe has been early retirement,

Detrimental to whom, exactly?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 07:12:36 AM EST
Not to whom, but to the set of concepts Munchau functions on in default mode.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 07:36:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
To the salt mines, seniors!
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 07:49:52 AM EST
Angels? Pinheads? How many?

scholastic theology: much concerned with precise definition of and deduction from dogma. (Concise Oxford Dictionary)

I can't think of anything else. Munchau's reliance on doctrine and a set of approved metrics reaches a level of abstraction that is numbing. A mediaeval theologian, shut away in a monastic cell with a parchment and a quill.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 08:04:43 AM EST
Start the letter with that....

"Is Munchau a mediaeval theologian, shut away in a monastic cell with a parchment and a quill? His recent article blah blah

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 11:37:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A provocative beginning always gets readers interested - for or against. Providing the editors realise that and print it.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 11:39:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Poorer how?

Let's see, most Americans are reaching the point where healthcare and higher education are simply not affordable.  Priced out of fundamental rights.  The nature of our infrastructure and the price of energy are making some people question whether they can even afford to go to work.  As a country, there is not enough money to fund education and basic services.  

Poorer, how?  Poorer than a significant portion of the population a major city who were too poor to leave town before a hurricane came and drowned them?

Yes, yes, yes,  Europe needs to just work more and they'll be richer like us.  Like Americans who work 60+ hours a week in multiple jobs who still live off credit cards because they can't make ends meet.

Ask most Americans about 6-8 weeks of vacation and they'll tell you that's a form of affluence.  Many Americans work overtime to pay for a vaction they get to cram into 2 weeks.

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

by p------- on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 08:23:26 AM EST
"... this summer, a number of surveys show that American workers, who already take fewer vacations than people in nearly all industrial nations, have pruned back their leisure days even more.

The Conference Board, a private research group, found that at the start of the summer, 40 percent [later corrected to 60%] of consumers had no plans to take a vacation over the next six months -- the lowest percentage recorded by the group in 28 years.
...About 25 percent of American workers in the private sector do not get any paid vacation time, the Bureau of Labor Statistics reports. Another 33 percent will take only a seven-day vacation, including a weekend.

"The idea of somebody going away for two weeks is really becoming a thing of the past," said Mike Pina, a spokesman for AAA, which has nearly 50 million members in North America. "It's kind of sad, really, that people can't seem to leave their jobs anymore."

...The Travel Industry Association, the largest trade group representing the industry, found that the average American expects his or her longest summer trip to last only six nights. And it takes three days just to begin to unwind, experts say."

Some companies have realised that this is actually counter-productive:

"... the accounting firm PricewaterhouseCoopers, has taken to shutting down its entire national operation twice a year to ensure that people stop working -- for about 10 days over Christmas, and 5 days or so around the Fourth of July.
"We aren't doing this to push people out the door," said Barbara Kraft, a partner at the firm in the human resources office. "But we wanted to create an environment where people could walk away and not worry about missing a meeting, a conference call or 300 e-mails."
...

"Company leaders at PricewaterhouseCoopers said they started their nationwide shutdown because people were not getting their batteries recharged. Now that the entire work force of about 29,000 takes a vacation, company officials say they are seeing positive results.
"It has taught our people what it is like to have unencumbered time," Ms. Kraft said."

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/20/us/20vacation.html


Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 08:27:24 AM EST
I can sympathize. When I go on vacation, I bring my laptop with me. I have yet to go on vacation when I would completely be out of the loop for 2-3 weeks from what is happening in my office.

Mikhail from SF
by Tsarrio (dj_tsar@yahoo.com) on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 06:45:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Here's a try


Dear Sirs

In his last column (More work and less play is the best policy for Europe), Wolfang Munchau inadvertantly makes a number of arguments which go directly against the point he is attempting to make, i.e. that Europeans are poor because they do not work enough, despite wishing to.

For instance, he blames lower GDP on the vast number of early retirees who choose to eat at home and practise their DIY skills, thus taking activity away from the comemrcial sector. Surely the choice to cook and to operate drills rather than subcontract these activities must result in a higher utility for those making these choices, and thus in higher overall "income". The problem is therefore not that Europeans are poorer, but that the results of their ingenuity and work are not recorded.

He also notes that the "famous Polish plumbers cannot compete with this [frenesy of home activity]". Surely this shows that European pensioners work long, hard, and with high productivity? Again, poverty would seem to come from the definition of income rather than from the lack of production, as meals consumed and improved housing surely attest.

Maybe it is time to take a harder look at the metrics used to judge the economic performance of countries, rather than using the very obviously flawed existing ones to pass judgement - inevitably in favor or corporate revenue-enhancing activity - on the social choices of such countries.




In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 08:33:29 AM EST

Dear Sirs

In his column "More work and less play is the best policy for Europe", Wolfgang Munchau inadvertently illustrates the shortcomings of GDP as a measure of the health of the European economy.

He blames part of the difference in GDP growth on the vast number of early retirees who choose to cook for themselves and practise their DIY skills, thus taking activity away from the commercial sector. Surely grilling one's own streak or unblocking one's own sink rather than subcontracting these activities results in a higher utility for those making these choices, and thus in higher overall "income". The problem is not that Europeans are poorer, but that the results of their ingenuity and work are not recorded in GDP figures.

While complaining about the low and "involuntary" workforce participation in Europe and the low and "involuntary" number of hours worked he does not address how many of the long hours worked in the US are involuntary. When your choice is between working a sixty hour week and being unemployed can you really call it voluntary?

It is time to take a harder look at the metrics used to judge the economic performance of countries, rather than using the very obviously flawed existing ones to pass judgement - inevitably in favor of corporate revenue-enhancing activity that benefits only a small proportion of society - on the social choices of such countries.

Mr Munchau's prescription for Europe is to increase the hours worked per capita. Our new motto is, apparently, to be "work harder, not smarter.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 08:52:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Just a little question: do people still do that, "Dear Sirs"?  It seems a little archaic since in the 21st Century, women are to be found on editorial boards, as shareholders, and among the newspaper reading milieu.  

Unless you know for a fact that you are writing to men, you might want to rethink that.

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

by p------- on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 08:59:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm hoping Jérôme has checked that! It would be going to Munchau and the Editor who I assume is male since he addressed it like that.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 09:02:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Archaic though it is, people still do that -- in letters to the editor in the UK press anyway. Though the formula is generally just: Sir,  (meaning the editor).
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 09:13:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Sir,

In his column "More work and less play is the best policy for Europe", Wolfgang Munchau inadvertently illustrates the shortcomings of GDP as a measure of the health of the European economy.

He blames part of the difference with the USA in GDP growth on the vast number of early retirees who tend to cook for themselves and practise their DIY skills, thus taking activity away from the commercial sector. Surely choosing to grill one's own streak or unblocking one's own sink rather than to subcontract these activities results in a higher utility for those making these decisions (especially as, in Mr Munchau's own words, the infamous Polish plumber cannot compete with these retirees for these jobs), and thus in higher overall "income". The problem is therefore not that Europeans are poorer, but that the results of their ingenuity and work are not recorded in GDP figures.

While complaining about the low and "involuntary" workforce participation in Europe and the low and "involuntary" number of hours worked he does not address how many of the long hours worked in the US are involuntary. When your choice is between working a sixty hour week and being unemployed can you really call it voluntary?

It is time to take a harder look at the metrics used to judge the economic performance of countries, rather than using the very obviously flawed existing ones to pass judgement - inevitably in favor of corporate revenue-enhancing activity that benefits only a small proportion of society - on the social choices of such countries.

I bolded most of my changes.


In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 09:23:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You took out the last line? You're no fun.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 09:30:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Do you really want it in?

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 09:32:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Nah. I might send it myself as a one-line snark letter though.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 09:35:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
suggest:

"He ascribes part of the difference in GDP growth to the vast number of early retirees..."

"While incriminating the low and "involuntary" workforce participation in Europe..."

"When your choice is between working a sixty hour week and being unable to make ends meet can you really call it voluntary?" (this to point out that low-paying jobs are available in the US, but that only by working long hours or multiple jobs can many people get by).

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 09:23:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I like those changes ... except for the first, which while probably more accurate, just sounds wrong to me, so rolling them in with J's we get:

Sir,
In his column "More work and less play is the best policy for Europe", Wolfgang Munchau inadvertently illustrates the shortcomings of GDP as a measure of the health of the European economy.

He blames part of the difference between US and EU GDP growth on the vast number of early retirees who tend to cook for themselves and practise their DIY skills, thus taking activity away from the commercial sector. Surely choosing to grill one's own streak or unblocking one's own sink rather than to subcontract these activities results in a higher utility for those making these decisions (especially as, in Mr Munchau's own words, the infamous Polish plumber cannot compete with these retirees for these jobs), and thus in higher overall "income". The problem is therefore not that Europeans are poorer, but that the results of their ingenuity and work are not recorded in GDP figures.

While incriminating the low and "involuntary" workforce participation in Europe and the low and "involuntary" number of hours worked he does not address how many of the long hours worked in the US are involuntary. When your choice is between working a sixty hour week and being unable to make ends meet can you really call it voluntary?

It is time to take a harder look at the metrics used to judge the economic performance of countries, rather than using the very obviously flawed existing ones to pass judgement - inevitably in favor of corporate revenue-enhancing activity that benefits only a small proportion of society - on the social choices of such countries.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 09:29:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
should I send it under my name? Any last minute comments?

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 09:32:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sure, send it.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 09:35:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Done

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 10:13:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"Work smarter, not harder" should be the ET motto!

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 11:44:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Jerome, you might find this article interesting.  It's written in Quebecois French but I am sure you can understand it what with your Polytechnique education and everything.

http://www.cyberpresse.ca/article/20060828/CPACTUALITES/60828053/1019/CPACTUALITES

by manon (m@gmail.com) on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 10:06:43 AM EST
You're quite right to base the LTE on the misleading metric of GDP. It's a pretty inconclusive argument of Munchau's to say that Americans have a higher GDP because they engage in more GDP-generating activity, while a proportion of European activity... isn't counted in the GDP.

It's a bit like IQ. IQ measures IQ-test-taking ability. GDP measures GDP-making activity. Each metric has its solidly-established place in the worldview of conventional wisdom, yet each metric is to some extent tautological.

Munchau's article, though, can be approached from the other end, as it were: what has he got on offer? More work. A longer working week, a longer working life, a higher rate of employment. But it's not pundits who offer work, it's employers. Where is the work to come from?

Well, from a more dynamic economy. What does that mean? One in which "people" work more, and pay "other people" to do menial tasks for them.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 10:57:50 AM EST
Remember that the US productivity  advantage is mostly in wholesale, retail and one other area - financial services I think.

It could be as simple as economies of scale and less onerous financial services regulation.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 11:00:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Duh... multi-tasking mouse error N° 856: Stupidly hit Post button instead of something else. Apologies.

We read someone quoted here some time back who was explaining how the right kind of economy was one where you worked long hours so you could pay the shoeshine boy. But the very nature of that economy is: some are well-paid, others just hang on doing lousy service jobs for the people with the money. Employers in Europe won't offer more work, especially in services, unless the cost of labour goes down.

Not long ago Munchau would have said it had to be labour market reform. Now it's more work. Whatever. It all boils down to one thing: Munchau (and so many other pundits) are touting for cheap, disposable labour. Nothing else.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 11:04:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"someone quoted here" -- not someone the ET member, obviously.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 11:26:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But I do support the shoeshine economy! Its what all my investments are in, after all. Ah, how I long for the day when afew can have shiny, shiny shoes from the labour of many!
by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 11:40:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You need to lobby to get Alex in Toulouse's tong reformed though.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 11:42:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Was that

Thong with a typo
Tongue in Erse
or Tong as in Chinese crime syndicate?

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 11:46:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Erse as in Gaylick?
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 12:03:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Stop ersing about afew ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 01:33:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah, someone, but it's a long way from straw-filled clogs to shiny, shiny shoes!
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 12:06:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I just posted a diary on an article from today's NYT that makes a pretty impressive argument that most American workers are not sharing in the gains in US productivity and GDP.
by Richard Lyon (rllyon@gmail.com) on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 11:25:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Interestingly, the reason we are supposedly poor is also the reason we are a whole lot healthier than the Americans.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 11:04:03 AM EST
You know, it would be nice if these op-ed columnists would actually leave their houses, travel a bit, and get to know the world they are so willing to write nonsensical pieces about.

First of all, it is a bit ironic how these new-age economic liberals are preaching that people have to work more hours for their own benefit. I say ironic, because this happened also about a hundred-some years ago during the big industrial revolution. Capitalists back then also preached that long working hours were good for the people. As a result, we got an enormous economic inequality, horrible quality of life, and subsequent economic depression. I think we should maybe try to look for another alternative.

Secondly, I never bought that "lower standards of living" bullshit that is based on some extrapolated statistic. I can say this. I know that not every country in Europe is comparable to the U.S. in terms of standards of living, and that is OK, because they are all at different stages of development. On my recent visit to Belgium, I had a pretty extensive discussion with counterparts in our Brussels office regarding wages. When comparing apples to apples, wages did appear slightly lower; however, when you start factoring in additional benefits offered in Europe, that system wins hands down:

  1. Healthcare costs. I have recently done an upper endoscopy. My hospital bill was $4000. My insurance (one of the best in the country) covered only 80%. When you add up medical expenses in a given year, especially if you have a family, the costs are insane.

  2. Transportation. The complete absence of a decent public transit system (yes we do have one, but I am talking decent here:), the horrible road conditions in the States, all add up to more costs. If you want to take BART from my town to San Francisco, you pay $10 roundtrip. For a 45-minute train ride. You want a monthly pass? Sure, just buy 20 roundtrip tickets. The government provides no assistance, neither does the employer. I know that many European countries have various schemes to compensate workers for their public transit expenses, plus their system actually works.

  3. Vacation time. No need to even go there. Many countries in Europe stipulate that employers compensate for vacation additionally. In Belgium, for example, you are allowed to take 24 days by law, for which you get 80% of your monthly salary in addition to regular salary. This is a perk not even remotely offered in the States.

  4. Lunch coupons. I know I know, it's a petty thing, but it means a lot to someone who comes from the States and has to pay for everything out-of-pocket. Lunch coupons are a great investment. Many people would collect them in the office, bring their own lunches, and use the coupons in grocery stores. The guy I spoke with spends almost no money on groceries between his and his fiancee's coupons.

  5. Prices. I don't care what anyone says about Europe being more expensive than the States. When it comes to going out, and doing quality-of-life things, there is absolutely no comparison. I am tired of paying 8-9 bucks for a glass of wine :) While in Belgium, we could easily go out, spend 20 Euro, and get a couple of wines and a couple of appetizers, tax and tip included. Here, in an equivalent establishment with good quality food, you will spend twice as much, also tax and tip included.

I may be going by anecdotal evidence here, but I've tried my best to compare the lifestyle costs here vs. Europe. I've been doing this for a while because we are working on relocating there, and obviously this is an important issue to us. Again, not every place in Europe falls within these price ranges and these benefits, but I've traveled enough around both continents to compare quite extensively.


Mikhail from SF
by Tsarrio (dj_tsar@yahoo.com) on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 02:12:51 PM EST
Having lived in the Bay Area before moving back to France, I would agree with you. I still remember my reaction when filling a prescription at the pharmacy (5 euros, total). And this was at a time when gas in SF was still under $2.
If you add housing to the mix, the comparison is even worse.
by Bernard (bernard) on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 03:51:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Nice post!

I've often seen economists pointing out difference between wages and total compensation (especially when it's needed to explain to the USA working poor that they are better than a while ago despite lower wages :).

I've not yet found a description on how you measure total compensation and how to compare this for different countries.

Housing, transportation, education and healthcare come to mind, and they're not zero.

Also if state welfare reduce risk you face, this risk reduction also has a price, and often a very big impact on the effective standard of living: you're not afraid 100% of the time of getting dumped to an horrible bottom of society, how much is it worth?

by Laurent GUERBY on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 04:10:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Absolutely. If you compare dollar for dollar, then yes, it is possible that wages in Europe are lower than in the U.S. I would still disagree with that premise, because the U.S. is very different state to state, just like many European countries. For example, many manufacturing plants for cars are now going up in Southern U.S., because wages there have been historically depressed in those industries. Automotive plants would pay in the $20s per hour in Northern states, and only in the teens in South.
But even if we assume that dollar-wise compensation is higher in the States, we also have to look at the lifestyle, additional cost burdens, other ways of compensation and assistance, etc. The mere fact that Europeans are able to maintain their lifestyles AND have a positive savings rate at the same time says something, doesn't it?

Mikhail from SF
by Tsarrio (dj_tsar@yahoo.com) on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 06:41:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Incidentally, I'm going around to my parents' house now to smash up their plumbing and destroy their cooker. You can't say I don't do my part for the economy. I might break some windows as well.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 02:22:20 PM EST
Is Wolfgang Munchau esentialy writting from the same pew as Thomas Friedman?
by Richard Lyon (rllyon@gmail.com) on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 02:54:05 PM EST
Well, Friedbrains is supposed to be a kind of universal man of good will journeying the Earth and getting insights from taxi-drivers, while Munchau the Monk is supposed to be more economics-and-business specialised.

But I can see them deaconing each other out of the same hymnbook.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 04:05:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
My blood pressure has been improved by the decisions of the NYT and FT to charge for their respective pontifications. If people would just stop posting them for free on the net, I could get it down a bit more :).

Mr. Freidman is truly one of the world's great frauds.

by Richard Lyon (rllyon@gmail.com) on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 05:03:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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