Welcome to European Tribune. It's gone a bit quiet around here these days, but it's still going.

The US is gearing up for an attack on Iran [w/update]

by Alexander Fri Jan 12th, 2007 at 04:59:50 PM EST

There are a number of good pieces today pointing out that the real import of Bush's speech last Wednesday is that it is a further indication that the US is making preparations for an attack on Iran. Needless to say, such an attack would be disastrous not just for the Middle East and the US, but for Europe as well, if only because of the disruptions to oil supply that would be produced.


William Lind's articles often appear on Counterpunch, althhough he is not a lefty, but an old-school conservative and someone with a lot of military experience.

[I]f we look at the President's proposal ... carefully, we find it actually amounts to less than zero. It hints at actions that may turn a mere debacle into disaster on a truly historic scale.

First, Mr. Bush said that previous efforts to secure Baghdad failed for two reasons, the second of which is that "there were too many restrictions on the troops we did have." This suggests the new "big push" will be even more kinetic that what we have done in the past, calling in more firepower -- airstrikes, tanks, artillery, etc. -- in Baghdad itself. Chuck Spinney has already warned that we may soon begin to reduce Baghdad to rubble. If we do, and the President's words suggest we will, we will hasten our defeat. In this kind of war, unless you are going to take the "Hama model" and kill everyone, success comes from de-escalation, not from escalation.

Second, the President not only upped the ante with Syria and Iran, he announced two actions that only make sense if we plan to attack Iran, Syria or both. He said he has ordered Patriot missile batteries and another U.S. Navy aircraft carrier be sent to the region. Neither has any conceivable role in the fighting in Iraq. However, a carrier would provide additional aircraft for airstrikes on Iran, and Patriot batteries would in theory provide some defense against Iranian air and missile attacks launched at Gulf State oil facilities in retaliation.

To top it off, in questioning yesterday on Capitol Hill, the Tea Lady, aka Secretary of State Rice, refused to promise the administration would consult with Congress before attacking Iran or Syria.

As I have said before and will say again, the price of an attack on Iran could easily be the loss of the army we have in Iraq. No conceivable action would be more foolish than adding war with Iran to the war we have already lost in Iraq. Regrettably, it is impossible to read Mr. Bush's dispatch of a carrier and Patriot batteries any other way than as harbingers of just such an action. (Less Than Zero )

If the US and/or Israel launched a "pre-emptive" attack on Iran, Iraq's Shiites would certainly abandon their tactical cooperation with US occupying forces and switch to insurgency mode. Worse than that however, they very possibly would have the capability of cutting of US supply lines. That is what would lead to the loss of the US army in Iraq. (Furthermore, there is the issue that Iran is rumored to possess Russian Moskit anti-ship cruse missiles, which are designed to be too fast for Aeigis anti-missille ships to be able to intercept (The Missiles of August ).)

Paul Craig Roberts, who also writes on Counterpunch and is also a "real" conservative, has been one of Bush's most vociferous critics, having long ago called for impeachment. (He was Assistant Secretary of the Treasury in the Reagan administration and still believes in supply side economics!)

[In his speech,] Bush states perfectly clearly that victory in Iraq requires US forces to attack Iran and Syria. Moreover, Bush says, "We are also taking other steps to bolster the security of Iraq and protect American interests in the Middle East. I recently ordered the deployment of an additional carrier strike group to the region."

What do two US aircraft carrier attack groups in the Persian Gulf have to do with a guerilla ground war in Iraq?

The "surge" is merely a tactic to buy time while war with Iran and Syria can be orchestrated. The neoconservative/Israeli cabal feared that the pressure that Congress, the public, and the American foreign policy establishment were putting on Bush to de-escalate in Iraq would terminate their plan to achieve hegemony in the Middle East. Failure in Iraq would mean the end of the neoconservatives' influence. It would be impossible to start a new war with Iran after losing the war in Iraq.

The neoconservatives and the right-wing Israeli government have clearly stated their plans to overthrow Muslim governments throughout the region and to deracinate Islam. These plans existed long before 9/11....

It is extraordinary that anyone can listen to this blatant declaration of US aggression in the Middle East without demanding Bush's immediate impeachment. (Surge and Mirrors)

Two recent appointments provide further evidence that Bush, as much under neocon influence as ever, has big plans for Iran:

On Jan. 4, Bush ousted the top two commanders in the Middle East, Generals John Abizaid and George Casey, who had opposed a military escalation in Iraq. Bush also removed Director of National Intelligence John Negroponte, who had stood by intelligence estimates downplaying the near-term threat from Iran's nuclear program.

Bush appointed Admiral William Fallon as the new chief of Central Command for the Middle East despite the fact that Fallon, a former Navy aviator and currently head of the Pacific Command, will oversee two ground wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The choice of Fallon makes more sense if Bush foresees a bigger role for two aircraft carrier groups off Iran's coast.

Though not considered a Middle East expert, Fallon has moved in neoconservative circles, for instance, attending a 2001 awards ceremony at the Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs, a think tank dedicated to explaining "the link between American defense policy and the security of Israel."

Bush also shifted Negroponte from his Cabinet-level position as DNI to a sub-Cabinet post as deputy to Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice. To replace Negroponte, Bush nominated Navy retired Vice Admiral John "Mike" McConnell, who is viewed by intelligence professionals as a low-profile technocrat, not a strong independent figure.

McConnell is seen as far more likely than Negroponte to give the administration an alarming assessment of Iran's nuclear capabilities and intentions in an upcoming National Intelligence Estimate. To the consternation of neoconservatives, Negroponte has splashed cold water on their heated rhetoric about the imminent threat from Iran. (The U.S.-Iran-Iraq-Israeli-Syrian War)

Up until now, concerns about an impending attack on Iran have been mostly restricted to the blogosphere. But now even journalists working for the corporate media are beginning to smell that something's up:

At a not-for-quotation pre-speech briefing on Jan. 10, George W. Bush and his top national security aides unnerved network anchors and other senior news executives with suggestions that a major confrontation with Iran is looming.

Commenting about the briefing on MSNBC after Bush's nationwide address, NBC's Washington bureau chief Tim Russert said "there's a strong sense in the upper echelons of the White House that Iran is going to surface relatively quickly as a major issue - in the country and the world - in a very acute way."

Russert and NBC anchor Brian Williams depicted this White House emphasis on Iran as the biggest surprise from the briefing as Bush stepped into the meeting to speak passionately about why he is determined to prevail in the Middle East.

"The President's inference was this: that an entire region would blow up from the inside, the core being Iraq, from the inside out," Williams said, paraphrasing Bush. (The U.S.-Iran-Iraq-Israeli-Syrian War)


The neocons are determined that the only siginificant military power that is going to exist in the Middle East be Israel. To achieve that, Iran needs to be substantially weakend through military means, the way Iraq was. (Which is not to say they are contemplating an invasion—just bombardment. After all, that's all that the US did to Iraq for many years under Clinton, albeit not intensively.) They are operating under a time constraint, since it is highly unlikely that any successor of Bush's could be so easiy manipulated into so overwhelmingly placing Israel's (perceived) interests over America's.

It is unlikely that Congressional Democrats will do anything to reign Bush in, since they are as much in the pocket of the Israel lobby as Bush is. Will Europe simply watch the approaching catastrophe unfold without trying to do anything to stop it?

The US and/or Israel attacking Iran would be a military mistake on the scale of Hitler's decision to invade Russia. But it would be even more insane than Hitler's move. Before Hitler invaded the Soviet Union, he had conquered all of Western Europe, losing only 30,000 men in the process. But in the recent past, the US and Israel have both lost a war: the US in Iraq and Israel in Lebanon. Yet they want to start a new one with a much stronger adversary.

Update [2007-1-13 17:32:26 by Alexander]:

RawStory has a piece on this, with a CNN video of an interview with one John Pike of GlobalSecurity. If you watch the video, you'll see that CNN is taking this very seriously.

"[Bush] also, surprisingly, announced that the United States was going to be deploying Patriot anti-missile interceptors to the region. It's difficult to imagine whose missiles those would be shooting down other than Iran. It's looks to me like the United States is, at least, raising its capabilities in preparation for possible military confrontation with Iran."

Pike provides a time frame in which the U.S. or Israel might first strike Iran, explaining, "I think the month of February is certainly a time of heightened probability. It's very difficult to understand exactly what the thinking is at the White House and in the Israeli government but for sometime now we've been saying that 2007 is probably the time, if there's going to be military action, it's probably going to come this year. Possible as soon as next month. Probably no later that August of this year."

Also, there are several pieces at the Atlantic Free Press, including this one which suggests that Cheney is behind all this: Just Like with Torture, Cheney's Got His Teeth Sunk into Iran.

Display:
Nice diary Alexander and backed with a variety of sources.  But I'm not buying.  The US would have to dump a whole lot of iron on Iran (or more than several unlikely nukes) to make much difference. More than a couple of carrier groups can muster.  Iran is not Iraq.  I also don't see the common Shia connection as particularly important.  

I can swear there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell. _ Blood Sweat & Tears
by Gringo (stargazing camel at aoldotcom) on Fri Jan 12th, 2007 at 05:25:38 PM EST
I'm not an expert on the Middle East or Islam, so I have to rely on experts when it comes to the common Shia connection. But my sense is that an unprovoked attack on Iran would go down much worse in the Middle East than the unprovoked attack on Iraq, since the Iranian government is viewed as legitimate, which it is of course.

You don't give reasons why you're not buying. The only reason you can have that I can think of is that they can't be that crazy. But we have plenty of evidence that they are that crazy. And there are plenty of examples in history of countries getting themselves into wars that everyone should have seen were crazy.

Clearly, Bush is making very threatening moves toward Iran. Either it's a bluff, or it's for real. As someone observed on the blogosphere, bluffing is not Bush's style. The Bushies are behaving now toward Iran exactly how they behaved toward Iraq in the run-up to the invasion.

Before Bush's speech, fears that the US would attack Iran could be fairly easily characterized as paranoid. But now two establishment, very high-profile correspondents are taking them seriously (the two people who work for NBC I quoted). That means we should, too.

A bomb, H bomb, Minuteman / The names get more attractive / The decisions are made by NATO / The press call it British opinion -- The Three Johns

by Alexander on Fri Jan 12th, 2007 at 05:42:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You don't give reasons why you're not buying. The only reason you can have that I can think of is that they can't be that crazy.

Crazy would have been doing this last fall in order to "bolster the election results for the republicans" as probably half the people on this site felt would occur, which couples nicely with the fantastically paranoid impression that the "republicans would not relinquish their control of congress peacefully." Given the track record of the left wing blogosphere on Iran, I don't think the onus is on Gringo to prove an attack won't happen. The onus is on you to prove that it will, and presenting op-ed pieces by politicians doesn't create a compelling case.

Along these lines, why won't this "second carrier group in the gulf proves an attack is imminent" idea go away? I haven't seen it presented in a military context once in the several months it has been out there, a nice demonstration of the collective lack of intellectual rigor among the public.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Fri Jan 12th, 2007 at 06:14:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You offer no argument at all, only rhetoric and a straw man. No one is arguing that it is proven that an attack is imminent. But clearly, the US is preparing for an attack: those carrier groups serve no useful role with respect to Iraq. Whether the US actually will attack is a mere possibility at this point: it is possible that the Bushies themselves aren't sure at this point whether they will do it or not. But that the US is preparing for an attack is not a possibility, but a reality, a fact. This is especially the case since Bush's speech was clearly making threats at Iran and Syria.

To be honest, what you said makes no sense at all, as far as I can tell. Are you denying that the Bushies are preparing for a (possible) attack on Iran?  It isn't "op-ed pieces by politicians" that are making threats to Iran: it is the Bushies themselves. And in Congressional testimony, Condi and/or Gates have explicitly refused to rule out military action against Iran, and stated that Bush needs no authorization from Congress to order it. How can you be so absolutely sure that this is just so much posturing?

A bomb, H bomb, Minuteman / The names get more attractive / The decisions are made by NATO / The press call it British opinion -- The Three Johns

by Alexander on Fri Jan 12th, 2007 at 06:54:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No one is arguing that it is proven that an attack is imminent.

Then I suggest you change the title of this piece.

But clearly, the US is preparing for an attack: those carrier groups serve no useful role with respect to Iraq.

Let me repeat what I just said. You haven't placed this claim within a military context, only within the context of your political views. "A, therefore B" is not a worthy argument. Prove to me that the purpose of two carrier groups in the gulf could only be to attack Iran. Prove to me that this is unusual in a historical context of the US presence in the gulf. Prove to me that Bush's posturing is in indicator of attack when his "axis of evil" speech was given over five years ago.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Fri Jan 12th, 2007 at 07:20:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree that there is grounds for scepticism.

But you are implying in your last sentence that the Bush administration has not indicated a willingess to attack Iran since Bush's "axis of evil" speech. This is clearly not true. All the web chatter over Iran is frankly more than understandable based on the threatening posture of the Bush administration vis a vis Iran.

And if Seymour Hersh is any indication, the chatter is not only limited to the web, it is also very evident amont the US military command.

by Trond Ove on Sat Jan 13th, 2007 at 04:22:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree there is a chance it will happen, but this particular piece was not well argued. That so many people are willing to uncritically accept "X means Y" arguments on topics they know very little about results in people like Jerome having to write stories like this. It's one of the biggest weaknesses of the world's political culture.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Sat Jan 13th, 2007 at 04:36:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Don't tell me about "not well argued". I wrote a diary, not an essay, an article, much less a book. I placed the links for my quotations there for a reason: for the careful reader to follow them, to understand the background that formed the basis of my argument.

You have evidently made no effort to follow those links and read what is there. Thus, you are not a serious reader. Therefore, you have no right to make calls for better arguments.

You are evidently very lasy. Your posts have amounted to a child's mechanically asking "why?" to anything an adult asks them. Until you get your act together to make a more serious contribution, I will not bother replying to any posts of yours I might happen to run into.

A bomb, H bomb, Minuteman / The names get more attractive / The decisions are made by NATO / The press call it British opinion -- The Three Johns

by Alexander on Sat Jan 13th, 2007 at 04:48:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ouch...

http://www.eurotrib.com/story/2007/1/12/43819/5386

Althought I have to agree that this wasn't really YOUR argument, so attacking you for the strength of it is a bit disingenious.

by Trond Ove on Sat Jan 13th, 2007 at 04:59:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Mill man expressed skepticism that it would happen, and he haspointed out, correctly, to the track record over the past year and more of predictions of crazy things that the Bush administration was about to do to Iran - which have, so far, and thankfully, not taken place.

That does not mean that they won't happen, of course, but it does mean that asking for more that "chatter" to use an intelligence term, is not unreasonable.

Your diary made good points, and so did Mill Man. We are in a realm of perceptions and interpretation, and we do not have enough information on either side of the debate to be conclusive.

So there is really no need to attack Mill Man personally like you did ("not serious" "lazy"). At this point, you can just agree to disagree on the significance of the carrier movements and other input you brought to us. That's fine. The ad hominems are not.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sat Jan 13th, 2007 at 06:37:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
William Lind, a knowledgeable man on military history, should know that military posturing (and that is what putting more carriers in the Gulf is) does not equal a runup to war. It does signify the threat of war.

If the new carrier group is actually deployed IN the Persian Gulf this is actually an indication that there will not be an attack, as the groups will be extremely vulnerable to Iranian anti-ship missiles and small attack craft. If the decision for war is taken, expect the big surface ships of the Gulf to steam out the straits of Hormuz at record speed.

As far as I see Bush mentioned another carrier group to "the region", not to the Gulf thought, so this do not really signify much.

by Trond Ove on Sat Jan 13th, 2007 at 04:55:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Revealed: Israel plans nuclear strike on Iran

Have you read this article? I just read it: it sounds like the Israeli's are very serious. (They have denied this, but then they would of course, if they still officially deny that they have nukes?) And the Sunday Times is not some nut blogging on his own, just making things up.

Robert Gates, the new US defence secretary, has described military action against Iran as a "last resort", leading Israeli officials to conclude that it will be left to them to strike...

Sources close to the Pentagon said the United States was highly unlikely to give approval for tactical nuclear weapons to be used. One source said Israel would have to seek approval "after the event", as it did when it crippled Iraq's nuclear reactor at Osirak with airstrikes in 1981.


Sounds like a green light to me. Since when has Bush ever put any pressure on Israel to stop it from doing anything?

The Israelis have made it very plain that they will not tolerate Iran's becoming a nuclear power, and once Bush leaves office, they will never get a chance like this again. I can't believe all this is just to intimidate Iran. Iran is riding pretty high right now, and has made it clear that it will not allow itself to be intimidated. And look where cooperating with weapons inspectors got Saddam...

A bomb, H bomb, Minuteman / The names get more attractive / The decisions are made by NATO / The press call it British opinion -- The Three Johns

by Alexander on Fri Jan 12th, 2007 at 06:05:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sounds like a media campaign to me. File under "will never happen."
by Trond Ove on Sat Jan 13th, 2007 at 04:56:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This one would be rather different though, this time once they cross Jordanian  or Syrian Airspace, then they are effectively in airspace that we control. Either Iraqi airspace, Saudi airspace, or Turkish airspace. it would be rather difficult to claim it was being done without our permission. especially as it would be necessary to stage refueling aircraft at some distance over  teritory we control.

Perhaps there is some sanity in the Bush camp, and the extra carrier group is there to deter the Israelis from any rash action.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Jan 14th, 2007 at 07:11:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
the only way the Israeli could do it is from their submarines. But it is ubknown if they can.

if they did it with conventional charges, the damage would probably be rather minimal.

If they use nukes, hell will break lose in the middle -east and it's far from sure that even such a strike would have the intentional effect, besides killing a lot of people.

At the same time the Israeli would expose themselves of being nuked in the future. The problem with Israel is it's size. Only 5-10 nukes even with a relative low yield and the country virtually ceases to exist, since 75% of the population is concentrated in 3 cities. The same amount of nukes on Iran would not have the same effect, even if the country would be badly hurt.

by oldfrog on Sun Jan 14th, 2007 at 08:01:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
US troops will leave Iraq 'in coffins': Sadr aide by Sabah Jerges
Fri Jan 12, 1:32 PM ET


BAGHDAD (AFP) - A senior ally of radical Iraqi cleric Moqtada al-Sadr warned that thousands of the planned 21,500 extra US troops en route for the war-torn nation would "go home in coffins."

Launching a new strategy to rescue        Iraq from civil war, Washington told the government of Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki, who owes his job to Sadr, it was on "borrowed time" and declared new "no holds barred" military operations.

A cornerstone of the new approach is increased pressure on Iraq's neighbours        Iran and        Syria -- which are accused by Washington of fomenting unrest -- and tougher action to deal with militias such as Sadr's feared Mahdi Army.

"The American people have to prevent their sons from coming to Iraq or they may return in coffins," threatened Sheikh Abdel Razzaq al-Nadawi, a senior official in Sadr's movement, slamming the planned US troop increase.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070112/wl_mideast_afp/iraq

obviously the Iranians didn't appreciate the raid at Irbil and the Shiites are turning from US tactiacal allies into enemies...

heck of a job, Dubya

by oldfrog on Fri Jan 12th, 2007 at 05:45:42 PM EST
At this point the 'we're about to attack Iran' has a crying wolf feel to it. Who knows, plenty of people in the admin clearly would like to, plenty others are opposed, so is the military. But sending carriers into the gulf is no more a clear indication of US plans than the Iranian enrichment is of theirs. Rhetoric on both sides can get silly. My guess, and like everyone else I can only guess, is that the sane people in the US government are keeping the crazies in check for the moment, while Cheney and co are hoping that the theocrats will up the ante from Bush-Cheney-like over the top rhetoric towards Bush-Cheney practice, giving them a rock solid case to strike back. Without that the Dems would absolutely resist

btw - the neocons are largely out - there's one senior staffer on NSC and a couple in the VP's office, plus Khalizdad on his way to the UN post, and Khalizdad is one of the only two prominent neo-cons who is both genuinely knowledgable and not completely delusional.

 Why quote Roberts - he's no more of an expert than you or I, and as you yourself point out he's crazy in his own field of expertise. Add that to his ugly politics, why give him any extra space, it only detracts from your argument.

Finally, your analogy with US/Germany Iran/Soviet Union is silly, even if one skips the false moral equivalence implied. If the US chose to implement even a fraction of the mobilization of its resources that Germany did in 1941, it would roll right over Iran. (Over three million German solidiers, scaled up by population that would equal an army of some twelve million Americans - I think the US could handle Iran with those numbers.)  

by MarekNYC on Fri Jan 12th, 2007 at 07:51:14 PM EST
The "new" war plan that Bush announced is based on recommendations by retired army general Jack Keane and Frederick W. Kagan of the American Enterprise Institute. Kagan is a neocon. So instead of listening to his generals, Bush is following the recommendations of a neocon. And you say the necons are no longer influential? Has Cheney, who is the one who really calls the shots, fired his neocon chief of staff David Addington?

Saying that Roberts is crazy in his own field of expertise is going too far. He is a very vocal critic of neoliberalism, although I don't believe he uses that term.

I don't see why you have to be so touchy about perceived implications of "moral equivalence". I was considering Hitler purely as a military strategist—not bringing up his moral qualities—because I think that is the best analogy. We are talking about disastrous overreach here.

When it comes to your smug confidence that the US would "roll right over Iran", you sound like you are in lala land. The US choosing "to implement even a fraction of the mobilization of its resources that Germany did in 1941" is a hypothetical that is completely irrelevant to any realistic discussion. If the US has proven incapable of mobilizing adequately to subdue Iraq, why should one suppose that it would be able to do so in the case of Iran, a much more formidable opponent? The US is involved in two very real wars, and yet is completely incapable of restructuring its military to divert its resources to where they are needed for fighting such wars, because the main purpose of the military is still to provide profits to defense contractors, by buying extremely expensive but useless high-tech weaponry.

It appears that you are both a proud enthusiast of the American empire, and in denial about its decline.

A bomb, H bomb, Minuteman / The names get more attractive / The decisions are made by NATO / The press call it British opinion -- The Three Johns

by Alexander on Fri Jan 12th, 2007 at 08:46:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The neocons are basically out. It's the Cheneyist unilateral imperialists duking it out with the career security-defense-foreign policy technocrats like Gates, and winning. The neocons are cheering on sidelines and providing nice little public relations eye candy.

The US choosing "to implement even a fraction of the mobilization of its resources that Germany did in 1941" is a hypothetical that is completely irrelevant to any realistic discussion.

It is relevant because you chose to compare a nation mobilized for total war against one of the world's great powers with one that's chosen not to in a minor war. Apples and oranges. And the word is choice. We've chosen not to because contrary to the conviction that seems to be shared by both the most devoted opponents of Bush and  yourself, it is not all that big a deal in the grand scheme of things for America to lose in Iraq. It is a sideshow. The US has mobilized for war three times in its history - the Civil War, WWI, and WWII, that's it. The Iraq and Afghan wars are costing about one percent of GDP, not twenty or forty. A major power fully mobilized for total war is a very peculiar thing, it completely permeates every aspect of the society and economy; this isn't it. In UK terms think Boer war vs. WWI. Lots of drama, lots of ugliness, lots of people in the country targeted by the great power dying - for them it's the real thing. But for the great power in question it's just a tragic farce. Don't buy the neocon hype.

by MarekNYC on Fri Jan 12th, 2007 at 10:51:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This is not just another Vietnam: it is much bigger. Vietnam was of no real strategic significance to the US; that is why "losing" it didn't matter, aside from bruised American egos.

Iraq is of tremendous strategic significance, and everyone knows that. Losing it would demonstrate to the world that the US is no longer able to effectively "project power" into the Middle East, where most of the world's oil is. And there are a number of autocratic Arab regimes, such as Saudi Arabia's, that depend on US power for their existence.

The US effort in Vietnam was predicated on the domino theory, which was a chimera. The US effort in Iraq is predicated on oil, which is very real.

The American economy is hollowed out. The US no longer has anything to sell to the rest of the world, aside from high fructose corn syrup and weapons. It depends on the rest of the world for oil and manufactured goods, but the rest of the world has no need for it, as Emmanuel Todd has pointed out. When it comes to having influence in the world, America has put all of its eggs in its military basket. Thus, as far as the rest of the world is concerned, without its military power (and its entertainment industry), America is nothing. That is why military defeat in Iraq would be a disaster for the US.

A bomb, H bomb, Minuteman / The names get more attractive / The decisions are made by NATO / The press call it British opinion -- The Three Johns

by Alexander on Sat Jan 13th, 2007 at 01:27:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I disagree. The Vietnam war had ramifications that we are still living with. It was the of an era. I am not going to claim that it was the event that signified the break from modernity to post-modernity, but it clearly had its influence on the intellectuals of the time.

As with Iraq, this was more evident on the edges of the US hegemony.

by Trond Ove on Sat Jan 13th, 2007 at 04:37:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It was the <end> of an era.

Preview is your friend...

by Trond Ove on Sat Jan 13th, 2007 at 04:46:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You have a valid point. Michel Crozier, in his Le mal américain, made the case that America's decline began with its Vietnam adventure. I should have said that whatever damage Vietnam caused to US hegemony, Bush II's war is much worse.

I am not going to go into the issue of "the break from modernity to post-modernity". In my view, all post-modernity is is the working through of English speaking intellectuals of the fact that the Anglophone world had not actually achieved a feasible realization of modernity.

A bomb, H bomb, Minuteman / The names get more attractive / The decisions are made by NATO / The press call it British opinion -- The Three Johns

by Alexander on Sat Jan 13th, 2007 at 05:15:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I am afraid I do not understand what you mean by your last sentence. Could you elaborate a bit further?

As for my own opinion on post-modernity, I see it as both a relatively elitist intellectual discourse (which I am not dismissing however), as well as a fitting marker for the changing nature of western societies, away from "mass" society, ie. mass communication, mass production, top down control, etc.

by Trond Ove on Sat Jan 13th, 2007 at 05:28:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sorry I was being intentionally cryptic. What I had in mind is that there is nothing new in the discourse of "post-modernity": German philosophy had gone through all of that before Hegel. In fact, Hegel's philosophy was a response to precisely those problems that are now described as "post-modernity".

Anglophone philosophy was never able to provide a response to modernity that satisfies human beings' spiritual needs. Unfortunately, with World War I, British intellectuals (Bertrand Russell most influentially) rejected the only philosophy that was able to provide an adequate response—German idealism—even though before the war, German philosophy was very influential in Britain. (Russell was initially a Hegelian.) That's what I was getting at.

A bomb, H bomb, Minuteman / The names get more attractive / The decisions are made by NATO / The press call it British opinion -- The Three Johns

by Alexander on Sat Jan 13th, 2007 at 05:54:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
America's decline began in Vietnam?  America's strength has almost unimaginably since 'Nam.  What are you on about?

My main critique of the "America in Decline" talk is this: Seven years ago, America was spitting out 4% growth per year.  The poverty rate was falling.  The bubble popped, but the damage was, on the whole, quite minor.  (As I've pointed out, time after time, America never technically suffered a recession.)  Now, seven years later, America is -- somehow -- in some sort of great decline.  The British Empire fell, but life ain't too bad in Blighty these days.  The "declining empire" spin becomes quite weak when you actually look at the big picture.

Is there economic damage that has been done?  Of course.  We've wasted an enormous chunk of money -- to say nothing of lives -- in Iraq.  $500bn over four years.  But try to keep in mind that tis is less than one twenty-sixth of one year's output.  Give me a break.  America could pull out of Iraq tomorrow, raise taxes to balance the budget, and be in better shape than ever.

There is no great symbolism in losing in Iraq.  This has nothing to do with projecting power.  America could blow the entire region off the planet in a matter of hours if it chose to.  Bush launched a half-assed effort in an idiotic war.  That's it.  Trying to depict this loss as being a sign of America's decline borders on the religious in its objectivity.

I mean no offense, whatsoever, to you, Alexander, so all due apologies if any is taken, but it's simply ridiculous.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sun Jan 14th, 2007 at 10:03:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Why do you think the neocons launched their PNAC plan to lock-in American hegemony forever? They are terrified. The whole PNAC idea is to use military power to compensate for decline.

The US manufacturing base has been disappearing since the middle 1970s. It is a neoclassical myth that you can run a large, modern economy on services alone, through the magic of comparative advantage. The middle class is disappearing. Most American parents with children still living with them are resigned to the fact that their children will have a lower standard of living than their parents did. The US is having a harder and harder time of keeping its allies (other than the UK and Japan) in line and a whole geographical region (Latin America) is slipping out of its sphere of influence. What is that if not decline?

The simple fact that the US political system could produce no better administration than the incompetent, predatory Bush administration—and could not even do so legally—shows that the system is in decline.

All empires decline sooner or later. The PNAC idea of an eternal empire is a Chimera, like the Nazi's thousand year Reich.

But this is not the place to discuss this issue. If the question of whether the US is in decline or not has not been diaried here, it should be.

A bomb, H bomb, Minuteman / The names get more attractive / The decisions are made by NATO / The press call it British opinion -- The Three Johns

by Alexander on Sun Jan 14th, 2007 at 11:22:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Iraq is of tremendous strategic significance, and everyone knows that. Losing it would demonstrate to the world that the US is no longer able to effectively "project power" into the Middle East, where most of the world's oil is.

I would actually disagree with that, actually. In terms of projecting overwhelming force, and taking over a country in the Middle East, it showed that it could do that really easily. It's the attempt to occupy a country that failed, but that's another thing.

Plus, the grim determination to do wholly irrational things may actually have a strategic value: the USA is able to do things that are not in its immediate interest but which are highly damaging to others, so cross them at your peril. Whether we like it or not, that aspect is there.


The American economy is hollowed out. The US no longer has anything to sell to the rest of the world, aside from high fructose corn syrup and weapons. It depends on the rest of the world for oil and manufactured goods, but the rest of the world has no need for it, as Emmanuel Todd has pointed out. When it comes to having influence in the world, America has put all of its eggs in its military basket. Thus, as far as the rest of the world is concerned, without its military power (and its entertainment industry), America is nothing. That is why military defeat in Iraq would be a disaster for the US.

Apart for mthe last sentence, I agree with you - it's the economic price that will matter in the end. But as Marek points out, a few points of GDP is not that big, so we'll have to see if the consequences are just sub par prosperity for a while or something bigger.

But strategically, the focus on the military means that the rest of the world has to be careful. That's a lot worse than cooperation thanks to shared institutions and "soft power", but it's still something strategically. And that's the reasoning of the neocons, essentially: they discounted soft power and decided, for some reason, that only hard power mattered. At the basest level, it does, so do not discount the US in any case. But their presence in the world will change from that of the past century.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sat Jan 13th, 2007 at 07:21:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think this is largely about semantics. Yes, the US can project power, but now we know what that means: being able to rain death and destruction on whomever it wants, or being able to credibly threaten to do so, but not being able to occupy significant stretches of territory in unfriendly nations, or install friendly and stable governments at will. I think PNAC envisioned something more than that.

I didn't mean to "discount" the US. What I was trying to say is that if the US fails in Iraq (which it will, of course), its decline will be more apparent to everyone than ever. It will then be like Bush—a lame duck whom nobody likes, but still with considerable power to do harm. But how long can you run an empire on hard power alone?

Clearly, with its combination of militarism and neoliberalism, the US has run into a dead end. Military might is always based on economic might, both industrial and financial, but with its neoliberalism, the US is letting its manufacturing atrophy, while financially it manages only because of the "international reserve currency" status of the dollar. This is not a sustainable model.

A bomb, H bomb, Minuteman / The names get more attractive / The decisions are made by NATO / The press call it British opinion -- The Three Johns

by Alexander on Sat Jan 13th, 2007 at 02:23:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

This is not a sustainable model.

Indeed not. But there's a lot of fat to burn, unfortunately, before it hurts where it matters.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sat Jan 13th, 2007 at 04:40:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Whether the Iraqi war matters in the "grand scheme of things" depends very much on your definition of "grand scheme of things".

I would argue that the war has already destroyed the US position as sole super-power. In global politics, the US president has been demoted to the biggest among equals, and the slide towards further loss of power is still ongoing.

The erosion of US power might not be too evident from inside the United States, but it is very evident here on the edges of the American sphere of influence.

by Trond Ove on Sat Jan 13th, 2007 at 04:34:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Saying that Roberts is crazy in his own field of expertise is going too far. He is a very vocal critic of neoliberalism, although I don't believe he uses that term.

Roberts is a fruitcake. An extreme right wing white supremacist one.

Yup, he's a protectionist, and thus has criticized the current neo-liberal paradigm. He also believes that the more you cut taxes the higher the tax revenues.

He is a big critic of Bush's abuses of civil liberties, but I don't think he has the same understanding of freedom that you or I have.

In his somewhat idiosyncratic understanding the current assault on America's freedom is the fourth and weakest of a series, effective because America's strength and freedom had been so badly sapped by the earlier three.

The first and greatest one was the Civil War when Lincoln, America's Pol Pot launched a war against the truest upholders of America's freedoms - the Southern elites.

The second was the New Deal which turned us into a a collection of government-dependent interest groups and welfare beggars.

The third was the sixties Civil Rights revolution and the opening up of America to dark skinned immigrants at the behest of evil multicultural intellectuals who denied the power of race and tribe. It turned America into a feudal system with whites suffering the dominion of black overlords and where the (white) rich suffer oppression greater than the black slaves ever did - democracy is evil, dontha' know.

On another front in the war of evil against good, Chile is seeing the destruction of Pinochet's legacy of freedom

Explain to me why this fascist nut is worth listening to?

by MarekNYC on Sat Jan 13th, 2007 at 10:58:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
OK, I guess he is a bit of a fruitcake. I didn't know about those views of his.

Clearly, he is also a contrarian. And contrarians are useful, because they increase the variety of perspectives.

The quotation of Robert's I gave did two things: it quoted from Bush's speech, and then gave an interpretation of that quotation. The quote is simply a matter of fact, so there is no reason for me not to quote Roberts for that purpose. As for the interpretation, lots of other people make the same interpretation. So again, there is no reason for me not to use this quotation of Roberts'.

In saying that I should not be citing Roberts, your line of thinking seems to be of an ad hominem and guilt-by-association type. I was not citing Roberts as an "authority". I was merely quoting those passages to spare me the trouble of saying the same things in my own words.

A bomb, H bomb, Minuteman / The names get more attractive / The decisions are made by NATO / The press call it British opinion -- The Three Johns

by Alexander on Sat Jan 13th, 2007 at 03:18:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
the war. We cannot be seen as having lost a war. We cannot be seen to be failures. The only option is to increase the size of the war and declare it will take at least a genearation to win. These are dangerous times and it seems nobody can stop the escalation.
by observer393 on Sat Jan 13th, 2007 at 12:14:38 AM EST
Congressional Democrats do have the power to stop the escalation. They have the power of the purse. Senator Kennedy has introduced a bill which would require Congressional approval for escalation. The Dems could attach such a condition to a new bill funding the war. Bush could veto it and the Dems wouldn't have enough votes to override, but then the ball would be in his court, since his veto will have cut off all funding for the war. In this game, the majority party in Congress always wins, if it has the will.

There is no doubt that, as William Lind, one of the people I quoted, put it, "Headed toward the cliff, [Bush's] course correction is to stomp on the gas." The only thing I wonder (and worry) about now when it comes to America's military adventurism is whether the Democrats are going to have the integrity and sense of patriotism to take the wheel away from him. I am not optimistic. I am also not optimistic about whether a popular movement, with mass demonstrations, could stop further catastrophe in time.

I think the main uncertainty is whether the corporate media is going to continue to coddle Bush. As soon as the media started reporting the actions of the Bush administration accurately and truthfully, it would be over.

A bomb, H bomb, Minuteman / The names get more attractive / The decisions are made by NATO / The press call it British opinion -- The Three Johns

by Alexander on Sat Jan 13th, 2007 at 01:04:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
After a couple years of worrying myself sick about a U.S. attack on Iran -- something I truly believe would result in WWIII -- or worse -- I now agree with MarekNYC that it's just more of Bush crying Wolf! In fact, when my tinfoil hat is sitting on my head just right, I even wonder if the whole Iran "Crisis" is just a wily Neocon ruse. By keeping us on alert, so to speak, against a major new war against Iran, we're too distracted to commit the tremendous resources we'll need to stop them from dumping more money -- and bodies -- onto Iraqi, not Iranian, soil.

Let's hope that Americans have finally wised up and that they'll continue to support the Democrats who are beginning to stand up to BushCo and his depraved cohorts.

by Matt in NYC on Sat Jan 13th, 2007 at 03:03:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think that what MarekNYC was suggesting was that people like me are crying wolf about BushCo attacking Iran, not that Bush himself crying wolf (about Iraq, Iran, ...)

I do believe that the Bushies and/or Israel do intend to attack Iran. Here, like Bush, I am following my "gut". There are two principal events that provide a basis for my gut feelings. First, BushCo is following exactly the same pattern for a buildup to war against Iran that it followed in the case of Iraq. (Concern about the threat of WMDs and abetting terrorism, setting up of a "special office" to manufacture propaganda, moving forces into place while claiming that they still have hopes for a diplomatic solution, etc.) Second, the Israeli invasion of Lebanon last summer showed that Bush will allow Israel to do anything.

We alreay know that Bush is a criminal of world-historical proportions. He is in power as ruler of the most powerful country in the world because his handlers stole two elections, and despite having not the least legitimacy as president, he rules as if he has a decisive mandate. And then he lies the country into the most ill-advised, not to mention illegal, war it has ever started. And still he wants to pursue it, despite everyone, except for the neocons, telling him that he should face reality.

I see a pattern here. And what fits into that pattern is launching an attack on Iran, not holding back from it.

A bomb, H bomb, Minuteman / The names get more attractive / The decisions are made by NATO / The press call it British opinion -- The Three Johns

by Alexander on Sat Jan 13th, 2007 at 04:06:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Both Bush and Olmert are the most incompetent leaders their respective countries have ever had. Someone -- Keith Olberman -- recently cited the old joke about the drunk who keeps picking fights in the bar, gets laid out flat and then calls out, from the floor, "Bring the next one on!" That's the way I see this desperate duo. I agree that they would like nothing more than to nuke Iran, but neither of them has the credibility anymore to get their way. The people they're surrounded by may be corrupt and evil, but they're not complete cretins.

(At least this is what I keep telling myself on sleepless nights at 4:56 in the morning!)

by Matt in NYC on Sat Jan 13th, 2007 at 04:56:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Maybe you are right. (And I did not expect to up this late into the morning!) Keith Olberman is my one regret for having gotten off cable.

What keeps me from being reassured by your line of thought is 1) Israel does feel itself to be under existential threat and 2) the current US government is captured by Israel, that is to say, the neocons, who see Israel's and America's interests as identical, have Bush's ear more than anyone else.

I agree that neither Bush nor Olmert has any more credibility, but I disagree that that will keep them from getting their way. Bush has no credibility, but our Congressional Democrats are only willing to submit non-binding resolutions, as opposed to not making funds available for escalation, which is completely within their power. That makes me think that the Dems do not have the resolve to keep Bush from getting his way, that is, the resolve to serve the interests of our country as opposed to their campaign contributors.

A bomb, H bomb, Minuteman / The names get more attractive / The decisions are made by NATO / The press call it British opinion -- The Three Johns

by Alexander on Sat Jan 13th, 2007 at 05:32:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think Washington understands that if we attack Iran, China can cause problems.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Sat Jan 13th, 2007 at 04:41:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As someone that does not immediately dismiss the Cheney/Bush admins wish for a war with Iraq, I have to say that any overt move in that direction under the current circumstances in Washington is more likely to create a constitutional crisis than a war.

Simply put, the White House is now even isolated from a large part of the Republican party, after the snubbing of the Baker committee.

by Trond Ove on Sat Jan 13th, 2007 at 04:41:15 AM EST
We shall see how this develops. There was a thread last night on dailyKos about Tony Snow's daily press briefing, in which he was backpedalling on attacking Iraq, and someone speculated that that was in response to pressure from Congress, alarmed by Bush's belicosity. Still, BushCo is known for liking to present the rest of the world with faits accomplis.

A bomb, H bomb, Minuteman / The names get more attractive / The decisions are made by NATO / The press call it British opinion -- The Three Johns
by Alexander on Sat Jan 13th, 2007 at 02:31:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think that there is a major piece of the picture missing here.

Forget whether or not there is any opposition in the US capable of stopping an attack on Iran.

There are other countries out there, and particularly those sitting on huge dollar balances.

It appears to me that what stopped the Brits at Suez - ie the threat of pulling the financial plug - could well be what might be deployed to stop the US now.

I doubt whether the Chinese would do it by themselves, but might well use the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation to do so.

The US would not even have the support of the UK on this - Blair is history, and I think that post WMD Brown's US sympathies would certainly not stretch to support for a gratuitous attack on Iran unsupported by any evidence.

Cheney (forget Bush) is not mad, and while the mayhem that would follow an attack would suit Big Oil, it would definitely not suit Big Money.

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Sat Jan 13th, 2007 at 05:38:54 AM EST

What we are witnessing (through rips in the curtain of official secrecy) may be an example of what the Germans call the flucht nach vorne ? the "flight forward." This refers to ta situation in which an individual or institution seeks a way out of a crisis by becoming ever more daring and aggressive (or, as the White House propaganda department might put it: "bold") A familiar analogy is the gambler in Vegas, who tries to get out of a hole by doubling down on each successive bet.

Classic historical examples of the flucht nach vornes include Napoleon's attempt to break the long stalemate with Britain by invading Russia,the decision of the Deep South slaveholding states to secede from the Union after Lincoln's election, and Milosevic's bid to create a "greater Serbia" after Yugoslavia fell apart.

As these examples suggest, flights forward usually don't end well ? just as relatively few gamblers emerge from a doubling-down spree with their shirts still on their backs.

But of course, most gamblers don't have the ability to call in an air strike on the casino. For Bush, or the neocons, or both, regime change in Iran not only may appear doable, it may also look like the only way out of the spectacular mess they have created in Iraq.

http://web.archive.org/web/20060419030725/billmon.org/archives/002390.html

the whole article is worth reading

according to my opinion the Bush administration/neocons have two options :

  1. surge and try to maintain "status quo" until next elections, then leave the Democrats with the mess just to blame them that they "stabbed America in the back" when they were about to win...

  2. escalate and thus give new options for the next elections.

But the the following events might not be dictated by RATIONAL elements. Billmon is right in making those historical parallells. It's often the way it goes...
by oldfrog on Sat Jan 13th, 2007 at 06:12:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks for bringing that up and for the link. But I still think that the contemplated attack on Iran, much more than the invasion of Iraq, is mostly for Israel's benefit. So maybe the main determinant of how this goes is whether the "traditional" US foreign policy elite will be able to overcome the neocons:
A titanic power struggle is being waged within the policy elite or power elite, or more simply the U.S. ruling class. The clash is taking place over the war on Iraq, U.S. policy toward Israel--and ultimately over the best way to run the U.S. empire. The war on Iraq is shaping up as such a disaster for the empire that it can no longer be tolerated by our rulers in its present form. The struggle is as plain as the nose on your face; nevertheless it draws little comment...

This struggle is in no way hidden and definitely not a secret conspiracy. It is out in the open, as it must be, since it is in great part a battle for the hearts and minds of the American public. This fact makes the absence of commentary about it all the more chilling. The fight among our rulers sets the neocons against other very important elements in the establishment: the senior officer corps, represented by Jack Murtha and Colin Powell; the old money like Ned Lamont; the oil men, like James Baker (With Baker against the war, how then can oil be the only reason for the war?); those who want to see the American imperium run effectively, like Lee Hamilton and Robert Gates of the Iraq Study Group; many in the CIA, both active duty and retired; policy makers like Zbigniew Brzezinski who has long opposed the war which he has ascribed to the influence of certain "ethnic" groups; and even former presidents Gerald Ford who kept his mouth shut and Jimmy Carter who has not and whose frustration with Israel and the neocons is all too clear in his book "Palestine, Peace Not Apartheid."

Clash of the Elites

A bomb, H bomb, Minuteman / The names get more attractive / The decisions are made by NATO / The press call it British opinion -- The Three Johns
by Alexander on Sat Jan 13th, 2007 at 02:49:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The SCO isjust a talking shop. The only thing that would matter diplomatically is if Russia supports active steps by China against US action.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sat Jan 13th, 2007 at 07:23:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
another piece of the puzzle missing, which is - simply - that Bush is completely barking.

All of the 'No they won't' arguments boil down to 'Because there will be bad consequences.'

But this is only true for people who relate to the world rationally, and Bush clearly doesn't. The consequences were obvious before going into Iraq, and that hasn't stopped him. They were obvious before the current surge, and that hasn't stopped him either.

You'll have to look very hard indeed to find an awareness of consequences in any of the foreign and domestic policy and planning decisions made by the Bush misadministration.

With a hat tip to Godwin, Bush is now moving into Hitler territory, far outside the bounds of rationality. Most of Hitler's decisions were clearly bad ones too. They eventually went beyond bad and became suicidal, both for him and his country. The fact they were obviously bad to anyone with half a braincell didn't stop him making them.

And that's how dictators work. Personal power and the ability to break things and throw them around are more important to them than anything else, because it supports their narcissistic delusions of being a Very Important Person in the verdict of history.

Consequences beyond that don't play any part in their decision making.

Of course there will be a constitutional crisis if Iran is attacked. And lots of other bad things will happen too.

But I'm guessing Bush is mad enough that he'll either try to suspend the constitution in time of war, or at least assign himself some extra war powers. Or he believes that sheer momentum will let him brazen it out once a few carriers are burning.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sat Jan 13th, 2007 at 06:40:47 AM EST
I have always believed that Cheney is in fact the real power in the US, and Bush essentially a puppet.

Cheney's agenda is rational, in its way, and predicated purely upon US energy security.

I think he is rationally playing the biggest of all poker games, and I think - now that Iraq did not go the way he hoped - he is bluffing.

I don't buy any of the Bush as mad dictator stuff.

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Sat Jan 13th, 2007 at 07:55:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not sure either of them are particularly sane.

The problem for the 'They're not crazy enough' argument is that there's so little evidence to support it. Foreign and domestic policy in the US has already been a banquet of psychosis over the last six years.

So I think it's more realistic to expect more of the same than a sudden 'Oops - that was silly - I think we should all act like adults now.'

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sat Jan 13th, 2007 at 12:34:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

In the U.S. House today, Republican Rep. Walter Jones (NC) introduced a resolution requiring the President "to receive congressional authorization to use military force against Iran," reports McClatchy Newspapers.

"The resolution requires that - absent a national emergency created by an attack, or a demonstrably imminent attack, by Iran upon the United States or its armed forces - the President must consult with Congress and receive specific authorization prior to initiating any use of military force against Iran," Rep. Jones said in a press release.

"Today, there is a growing concern - justified or not - that some U.S. officials are contemplating military action against Iran," Jones continues. "This resolution makes it crystal clear that no previous resolution passed by Congress authorizes such use of force. The Constitution of the United States declares that, while the Commander in Chief has the power to conduct wars, only Congress has the power to authorize them."


http://www.rawstory.com/news/2007/Video_Recent_US_actions_could_signal_0112.html
by oldfrog on Sat Jan 13th, 2007 at 09:00:53 AM EST
It is interesting that that resolution was introduced by a Republican. I quoted an article a couple of posts up which argues that the sclash of the elites that is now in progress does not correspond to party lines.

A bomb, H bomb, Minuteman / The names get more attractive / The decisions are made by NATO / The press call it British opinion -- The Three Johns
by Alexander on Sat Jan 13th, 2007 at 03:05:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
After 46 posts it seems to me that we need to change course a bit. Here is a different point of view- I hope.
Most of us agree on these things:

-Bush is nuts.

-Cheney is probably driving.

-Bush is useful, if you need a mouthpiece.

-There have been a lot of moves that could be either sabre rattling or serious attack signs- like that foam around the mouth of the Dobie next door.

Not so easily agreed upon items:
-
-The events of 9/11 were a grand gift from hell for the Straussian neocons, who had failed generally to make their agenda the central one, though they have been trying since the Reagan administration.

-The Neocons are far from gone- they have in fact made a miraculous recovery from the failure of their every policy initiative and the collapse of every revealed truth of the Straussian theology. There is no opposition theology, no game but politics, except the Christian Right, and they are the archetypal "useful dupes". And beginning to realize it.

-Plan "B" and the poor surgistas are in fact the creation of the neocons who remain very much central to the policy chain of command.

-Bill Moyers speaks of the US needing a new story, and he's right. The Neocons have substituted a tale of terror and it's concomitant acquiescence to tyranny for the more traditional vision of ourselves that we used to hold dear. That old story may have been pretty thin stuff (if we were winning in Iraq we would not be having this discussion, torture be damned), but it was ours, and we loved it. Shame we let the Neocons write the script, but we did.

ThatBritGuy points out that to search for logic in a madhouse is a thankless task (my paraphrase), but I maintain logic aint even involved here- they are just making up a new story for us to chew on, --one that they think will trump all the bad shit- rather like burying bad news coming out on a Friday with a juicy  scandal, or the world dickdunking championships.
My belief is that this is real, folks- if it looks like it will fly.
It does not even have to succeed militarily. It just has to justify the "endless war". The golden rewards of 9/11 for the neocons are not forgotten, and scruples are not likely to play much of a role.  

There is really nothing left to Cheney but this. His health is failing and he will not get another chance. There are a lot of bits that fit a martial law scenario, from the alterations in the chain of command to the fact that there is not a single usurpation of power that Bush/Cheney has attempted that has not succeeded. Not one. And in any case, the Democratic congress has not even acknowledged this fact, let alone made a realistic plan to roll back the massive shift of power. I think they- and a lot of us- are in denial. The American pastime seems to be to hide from unpleasant realities.

Is THIS to be our new story, folks?

-We goad Iran into something really, really stupid. Seems easy enough, given their current leadership.

-We (or Israel, 's all the same) bomb the crap out of them,

-They retaliate in the many ways available to them that have been so thoroughly discussed by the real experts.

-We cast ourselves as the only force that can stem the tide of terror in the Straits or the gulf, and keep the refineries huffing and puffing (and, by that moment, it might even be true), and Tony Blair's mouth moves in perfect synchronization to the cassette tape in his head- the one the boys from Bushland made for him.

By that time, it will be closer to the election, and a whole new political ball game will emerge. The GOP sure needs a new ball game. I think they are about to get one. Fox will love it, the Dems will rave ineffectively, the draft will become a moral obligation, Fox will cover Brittany spears' new carbuncle, interspersed with patriotic ravings and Arabhate and liberalhate masquerading as journalism--

It's not the logic or absence thereof. It's the story.

I think that as a tactic to win in '08 it will fail--- but that's logic speaking.

Capitalism searches out the darkest corners of human potential, and mainlines them.

by geezer in Paris (risico at wanadoo(flypoop)fr) on Sat Jan 13th, 2007 at 05:32:55 PM EST
There are two recent stories that caught my attention and point towards the possibility that the US is provoking Iran into aggressive action in order to justify some sort of attack. The first was the collision of a US nuclear submarine and a Japanese tanker in the Hormuz Straits (the possibility that another similar fuckup could block the Straits without a war seems quite real, if unlikely). The second has been the arrest of two separate groups of Iranian diplomats in the past few weeks, the last one after a raid on an Iranian consulate.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Jan 13th, 2007 at 06:09:56 PM EST
as Chris Floyd reports. Cheney and Rice's stenographer Michael Gordon writes in Saturday's New York Times:
According to U.S. military figures, 198 American and British soldiers have been killed, and more than 600 wounded by advanced explosive devices manufactured in Iran and smuggled in through the southern marshes and along the Tigris River.
How the US not go to war against Iran now, even with an unpopular president, when Iran has killed or wounded 798 American and British troops?

A bomb, H bomb, Minuteman / The names get more attractive / The decisions are made by NATO / The press call it British opinion -- The Three Johns
by Alexander on Sun Jan 14th, 2007 at 07:16:13 PM EST
Ask Charlton Heston and the NRA: bombs don't kill people; people kill people.

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson
by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Mon Jan 15th, 2007 at 06:02:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
How can you say he critiques neoliberalism while also saying that he buys into the Supply-Side fairy tales?

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sun Jan 14th, 2007 at 10:06:28 PM EST
A good way of defining neoliberalism is that it is the effort to make the abstractions of neoclassical economics hold in reality. But the doctrines of supply-side economics are not part of mainstream neoclassical economics.

A bomb, H bomb, Minuteman / The names get more attractive / The decisions are made by NATO / The press call it British opinion -- The Three Johns
by Alexander on Sun Jan 14th, 2007 at 11:03:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Another take on this by Paul Craig Roberts:
The question is: why is Bush, who is confronted with failure in Iraq, willing to compound his problems by attacking a more powerful Muslim state that the US has no prospect of being able to occupy?

A former member of the National Security Council gave me a possible answer.  Bush can bury his defeat in Iraq with a "victory" in Iran.

Here is the victory scenario: Bush and Cheney will claim that their air attack on Iran succeeded in destroying Iran's (non-existent) nuclear weapons program. The victory claimed by the Bush Regime and the propagandistic US media will "make America safe from nuclear attack." This will restore Bush's popularity and move the US back to a 50-50 political split in time for Karl Rove to steal the 2008 election with the fraudulent electronic voting machines built and programmed by Republican operatives.

The former national security official believes that Bush will be able to claim victory over Iran, because Iran will avoid responding militarily. Iran will not use its Russian missiles to sink our aircraft carriers, to shut down oil facilities throughout the Middle East, or to destroy US headquarters in the "green zone" in Baghdad.  Instead, Iran will adopt the posture of another Muslim victim of US/Israeli aggression and let the anger seep throughout the Muslim world until no pro-US government is safe in the Middle East.

Bush needs a short-run victory, and Iran will let him have it in order to gain the long-run victory.

The consequences for the US, Israel, and the US puppet regimes in the Middle East will be catastrophic, but they will not occur in the short-run.

This explanation solves the dilemma of why Bush would get deeper into the quagmire for the sake of the Israel Lobby.  A US attack on Iran allows Bush both to satisfy the powerful Israel Lobby and to claim to have destroyed Iran's (non-existent) weapons of mass destruction.



A bomb, H bomb, Minuteman / The names get more attractive / The decisions are made by NATO / The press call it British opinion -- The Three Johns
by Alexander on Wed Jan 17th, 2007 at 03:54:55 PM EST


Display:
Go to: [ European Tribune Homepage : Top of page : Top of comments ]